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Yeah last week's inquiry was interesting. AB came across well, and as absolutely knowing the subject in finite details, far better than Alan Cook who seemed like he didn't know anything about the legal side of PO when he was MD of PO.
" far better than Alan Cook who seemed like he didn’t know anything about the legal side of PO when he was MD of PO."
Are you better appearing a bit thick or a bit evil and dishonest?
Vennels is up today and for the next couple.
I expect though as per most of the other witnesses her memory is going to be a bit shaky and so whilst being really sorry wont be able to help much.
^
She seems to have two memories. Where it points a finger at her actions, decidedly rusty. When someone else is at fault, it's much better. How odd!
I expect though as per most of the other witnesses her memory is going to be a bit shaky and so whilst being really sorry wont be able to help much.
It's almost as if you wrote the script.
So Vennells has admitted lying to parliament.
I'll stick the kettle on.
Get all the top people and dump them in the Coliseum. Last one standing is innocent, maybe?
The state gets to redistribute their wealth to the victims
if she trys to throw anyone else under the buss today there will be no one left.
I'm surprised she's not blamed any civil servants or ministers. Perhaps that will come. I doubt they will be directly culpable, but it seems some of the cultural priorities must be established by the expectations of the shareholder.
Vile people who are unable to take responsibility for incompetent and probably illegal actions.
It would be refreshing if just one of them said "Yes, I thought it was better for my career to follow this course of action. Clearly long term that has not been the case." The reality is, I don't think the culture and problems here are that unique. Lots of toxic government institutions which prioritise the organisation over the people the employ and serve, and private organisations with shareholders are not necessarily any better. A culture where spinning it for this month/quarter/annual report takes priority over doing it right - because short term spin is rewarded and long term fixing is not.
Some jail time would be nice for her. A despicable human.
A culture where spinning it for this month/quarter/annual report takes priority over doing it right – because short term spin is rewarded and long term fixing is not.
You'd think various recent government and business actions would have brought us to a point where this is understood and will change going forward, but I'm expecting to be disappointed.
I want to know where 'the other side' of all this so called missing money went - there is a control account with millions sat on it ? Or who has been really on the rob.
I want to know where ‘the other side’ of all this so called missing money went – there is a control account with millions sat on it ? Or who has been really on the rob.
My understanding is that there was no actual financial loss to the PO? The system issues resulted in apparent losses that suggested the postmasters/mistresses had been pocketing money.
The PO then pocketed any money that the accused paid back to avoid being charged?
The money that the subpostmasters "paid back" went into a balancing account, from where it was absorbed into their general profits.
Lots of toxic government institutions which prioritise the organisation over the people
See also contaminated blood, the eventual enquiry aboout sewage and any NHS error in the recent past.
Making a statutory duty to be candid on pain of jail time when managing a public service can't come soon enough.
I know PV already believed in god, but with today's election news she'll be doubling down on that belief no doubt.
Making a statutory duty to be candid on pain of jail time when managing a public service can’t come soon enough.
Absolutely.
Obviously the main victim in all this. Poor woman.
I did sort of feel sorry for her at the end. Got told no more question so time to relax but then the judge decided to throw in a finisher.
Then on reflection I remembered its all self inflicted and massively outweighed by the damage caused to the subpostmasters and their families so I got over it.
Just watching 5 minutes of the footage yesterday she is following the tactics of previous witnesses. She can't really recall key details with any clarity when it's about her but can remember enough about other people's activities at that time to shift the blame/focus onto them
I hope they all burn in hell for the suffering they inflicted upon innocent people. Aloof doesn't begin to describe the attitude towards the little people.
She knows she's culpable and that is why the waterworks came on when required
Her actions don’t match her words.
It’s relatively easy to say sorry and feel sorry for oneself when we’re in trouble. It’s much harder to take responsibility for things.
She must have either have known, or have been actively trying not to know what was going on IMO.
I have to point out that it's human nature to remember everything that exculpates yourself and forget everything that incriminates yourself.
It's not really about her being a Bad Person, she's probably no better and no worse than the majority of people would be in that situation. It's why we need robust institutions, protection for whistleblowers and a healthy distrust of authorities.
It's not like the evidence hasn't been all around us through our entire lives.
She knew about all of it. She made a conscious decision to take the actions the PO did. She had the power to stop it but made the decision to continue the whole disgusting charade. She has lied and is continuing to lie now.
I know PV already believed in god, but with today’s election news she’ll be doubling down on that belief no doubt.
She and the media have another two? Days of her enquiry evidence for her to gaff (or cry) her way on to the front pages.
Unfortunately she's only shown how incompetent and complacent she was in the role of CEO, imo too trusting and stupid to change a broken system.
Having worked with PO and now 'for' the PO in my shop, they has always been and still is a gap between PO management and Postmasters. For example we've run out post office for over 8years now - we've seen an area manager face to face twice in that time...
All these highly paid CEO melon farmers will be the first to tell you they’re paid so well because of the significance of the responsibilities they burden. So maybe no better and no worse but utterly accountable irrespective of any recall issues.
She can’t really recall key details with any clarity when it’s about her but can remember enough about other people’s activities at that time to shift the blame/focus onto them
That was raised to her yesterday and needless to say she went silent, got out an onion and then waffled.
It’s not really about her being a Bad Person, she’s probably no better and no worse than the majority of people would be in that situation.
It's the group-think in these sorts of organisations that prioritises and rewards short term gains at any price over any other consideration that ends up with folks like Vennels into enquiries like this.
It’s not really about her being a Bad Person
I'd go further. I think that believing that you are a "good person" can make you more prone to doing spectacularly bad things.
It's all part of being a religious zealot, right? Believing that the org you're part of must be right despite all logic and the cost to the little people.
I did sort of feel sorry for her at the end. Got told no more question so time to relax but then the judge decided to throw in a finisher.
it was quite a way to finish for the day. Sir Wyn doesn’t normally ask pointed questions.
i do wonder what the inquiry can really say, other than “the organisation had deep seated problems, is riddled with lies and liars and major corporate governance issues”. No doubt the outcome will be a major overhaul of PO management, and the police might prosecute a few scape goats. Beyond that, perhaps some changes to private prosecutions / investigative powers of the PO. But is anyone really expecting it to change other institutions? My guess is they are all looking on saying “that’s scandalous, it would never happen here” whilst being run in exact pg the way that puts the institution first.
So is there going to be an avenue for the postmasters get any more compensation out of this process, given that legal fees ate up most of the initial payout? Christ knows they deserve it
So is there going to an avenue for the postmasters get any more compensation out of this process, given that legal fees ate up most of the initial payout? Christ knows they deserve it
The new/enhanced compensation scheme that the government set up along with quashing their convictions is supposed to do exactly that. BUT that is really an outcome of the ITV drama not the Inquiry! I'm not sure if the Inquiry would have had the power to instigate that (or even to recommend it) if the government hadn't been shamed into action.
"Crocodile tears…"
Exactly what said when I saw that charade yesterday. She needs putting in jail... and the £million+ pay she got during this time reclaiming. Evil self serving bitch that evidently didn't give a fhuck about anyone else but her own position.
I have to point out that it’s human nature to remember everything that exculpates yourself and forget everything that incriminates yourself
That is true but the PO witnesses have been stretching that to the absolute limit.
Jarnail Singh had no memory of receiving the email telling him about the flaws with Horizon. No recollection of opening the email. No clue about whether he'd saved it on his HDD (he had).
Despite this, he had surprisingly clear memory of NOT printing it out (which he had).
I’m sure the Archbishop is delighted to have someone of such high morals ordained into th priesthood. She sounds like a perfect match.
@chrismac I think it's a shame she didn't become Bishop of London. That would have been great.
Honestly she's lucky that the election is taking attention off her. Her performance at the enquiry is pitiful execrable.
The is a group of people in society who don't care about others. Literally, do - not- care. They would drive past a fresh road traffic accident and feel no emotion. Obvious club members are Boris, Trump, Braverman, Musk etc. But we need to add people like Vennels to this club. She knew sub postmasters were being locked up, she knew they were taking their own lives, she knew families and finances were being destroyed and she knew their were unanswered questions about Horizon. She had the power to stop it, to ask questions, to pause prosecutions, to probe more. Yet she did nothing, because she did not care.
I'd love to see some scientific analysis of these people. Wire them up to stress monitors and expose them to trauma videos, I reckon the dial would barely flicker.
She's a definite case where you can tell when she lieing- it's whenever her lips move.
A lot of old emails being brought up during this and causing problems for people.
Much like the government switched comms to self deleting WhatsApps to evade freedom of information and inquiries, I wonder if organisations will now out of caution be deleting all emails after some number of years.
I wonder if organisations will now out of caution be deleting all emails after some number of years.
Yes its now pretty routine to have a default email retention period with the ability to manually mark to retain longer. Length depends on paranoia and in some cases legal requirements
There are more smoking guns than a Waterloo reenactment society get-together.
Vennells is a coward, and has used religiosity to build up a veneer of unjustified self confidence that she is always 'doing the right thing'. It is so deeply ingrained in her that she can justify pretty much anything to herself.
The temptation for the cross-examining lawyers to grab her by the shoulders and shake her must be overwhelming.
But, in the long run, she'll be fine. She won't do any jail time, she won't end up in penury. My bet is she'll disappear overseas at the end of this and live out her days in a degree of comfort.
Also, isn't it incredible? These so-called 'christians' - whenever they are exposed they all seem to have missed the day at god-school where the bit about not bearing false witness is covered. 🤔
I wonder if organisations will now out of caution be deleting all emails after some number of years.
As you note, government swapped, conveniently, to WhatsApp. I reckon that's where a lot of the director-level naughtiness goes on nowadays. It's highly unlikely the likes of Johnson would be the first to realise anything. Ever.
I wonder if organisations will now out of caution be deleting all emails after some number of years.
One of my previous employers (nobody contentious) introduced this as policy almost 20 years ago. A right PITA it was.
I thought it was rather telling, showing her contempt and disdain with the scowl she gave when those in the room groaned at another of her weak responses. A little slip that said alot to me.
Mr Beer though, I could watch him all day! 🙂
Dude deleting email doesn’t delete it from the back end systems. However senior management and board of megacorps are beholden to shareholders so stuff can disappear. WhatsApp of course is entirely off grid which is why it should be made an offence (in some manner) to use these sort of comms for official business. It’s evident that it’s being used NOT for convenience but because it’s off-grid / out of band.
WhatsApp of course is entirely off grid which is why it should be made an offence (in some manner) to use these sort of comms for official business
The US SEC fined the major financial corporations a total of about 2 billion dollars for not enforcing rules about not using whatsapp etc vs the approved systems with logs.
"Also, isn’t it incredible? These so-called ‘christians’ – whenever they are exposed they all seem to have missed the day at god-school where the bit about not bearing false witness is covere"
Or being self serving shitbags that are in it for the love of money at the expense of whomever happens to cop for it.
Yeah - yesterdays evidence was pretty shocking (but expected), surprised that the media haven't run with it as much as the could but then there are other things happening at the moment and maybe public interest is wavering a little now.
It's cirtainly becoming more and more the 'upper management' scandal rather than 'horizon' .
Yesterdays interview of a postmistress on Jeremy Vine is worth a listen - from about 43min
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0020233?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile
She makes many a good point about how postoffices are currently run, especially rural and isolated offices (like mine). Our office actually makes 4p a first class stamp and 2p a second - the postoffice, although it's what we are known for would not exist without our retail side which is actually the part that pays the bills. Our postoffice is run on commission and makes the shop around £4-500 a month.
No one will pay for this clear crime, I have stopped watching it will end up the same a Steven Lawrence case dragged out for years then no one prosecuted.
I hope I am wrong.
I don't believe it was ever meant to? https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/publications/terms-reference
But watching some of the grillings it's easy to forget, and have an impression that some justice is in progress.
I hope I am wrong.
I would love for you to be wrong but sadly I doubt it.
I think there is a possibility of one or two people getting prosecuted for perjury (the ones the judge at the initial acquittal trial asked the cps to investigate because their evidence in the "successful" trials was rather dubious to say the least) but beyond that I dont think our laws were written to handle this sort of scenario and hence, unfortunately, they will go free.
Compensation will go some way to redress the losses that were financially made, maybe even go further if the scheme is compensating for the pain and suffering.
It won't bring back the years of (prime of) life for some of them, having a chunk of cash now you are too old to enjoy it, or that your kids could have enjoyed while growing up, etc, isn't a huge compensation. And it won't bring Martin Griffiths back to his family.
It also won't repair the hurt of a being a community postmaster that was ostracised by their community and friends because - well, the legal system can't get ti wrong, can it? Having to leave your village or town, or having people that were your friends cross the raod to avoid you or talk behind your back.
If there's no actual legal ramifications for the Vennells, Van den Bogerds, etc., of this world then am I saying I hope they step in front of a bus, of course not. Do I hope that every gathering they go to, even their own family gatherings, people know what they did and cold shoulder them in the same way the postmasters were. Could I treat a friend the same after they've done this, I don't think so.
I dont think our laws were written to handle this sort of scenario
I think there’s plenty of legislation that covers what we are all sure happened: https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/public-justice-offences-incorporating-charging-standard
the difficult part might be getting smoking gun evidence that ties it to the controlling minds. I dare say if vennels was to be brought in front of a Jury that her lawyers would understandably try to argue she has no chance of a fair trial given the media coverage.
I assume the solicitors’ regulatory authority etc may also have an interest in the various professionals who have helped make a bad situation worse.
It won’t bring back the years of (prime of) life for some of them, having a chunk of cash now you are too old to enjoy it, or that your kids could have enjoyed while growing up, etc
Indeed. Jo Hamilton had 5 cleaning jobs and her husband was forced to work full time until the age of 70. I think I read that his health isn't too good. These 2 will never get their time back. They are just one of many families who have suffered. It's utterly disgraceful (I'm being polite).
I hope that we have some sort of reform within the post office as well asap. Ideally post office ltd should be disbanded and some sort of co-op or employee ownership introduced. PO ltd are the cause of the candle and has been an outdated management system of the service for decades.
As I've said before it's not just about the 900 convictions - all remaining 11,500 postoffices have been affected.
I'm hearing lots of stories of independent retailers with failed sales mid negotiation or huge devaluation of their business due to the scandal. Couples coming to retirement having shut their postoffices as they can't find a buyer etc.
monkeyboyjc - I'm not sure that its the solution you would hope for, but given the community importance of the post office I think it should probably be brought fully under government control - directly as civil servants not as a Ltd Co. They could then genuinely be one-stop-shops for all government-citizen interactions.
I see they've managed to **** up again though by listing the names and addresses of everyone convicted on their website! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd110nl7dppo
I think it should probably be brought fully under government control
It's interesting seeing the different party options on the PO with the GE coming up. All have said they'll do nothing until after the enquiry and essentially it's 'settled down' pr wise.
Personally I can't see it being run any better under civil service management. But they cirtainly need to rip up the current management structure.
I may have said this in this thread before, but over 10yrs ago I worked as a project manager for a large supermarket, I used to manage retail refurbishments and new builds. I'd direct site meetings usually as the sole rep of the supermarket, we are talking between five to seven figure sum budgets.
Post office ltd would attend site with sometimes upto 6! middle management staff all with different job titles. Their proportion of the refurbishment rarely exceeded 25k (& much of their proportion of the work our shop fitters undertook). My experience is that PO ltd has historically spent money like water on staff they don't need.
Contrast that to my experience of actually running a post office, in almost 8 years we've seen an area manager twice...... Both times things were promised, which have never happened.
Personally I can’t see it being run any better under civil service management
Oh, I'm in no doubt that it doesn't really matter what the structure is - if you allow the culture to exist then situations like this can arise. I'll bet there are plenty of government orgs, quangos, charities, private companies and public listed ones who if they were they were truly honest would see that their organisation has the same culture and approach and is just one decision away from this sort of debacle! BUT it just feels like the leadership thought they were running a commercial business rather than a public service.
Only just watched this.
If you haven’t, do.
Does anyone have any factual updates? Any comments from new ministers? Ta.
Ta! Looks like 9pm.
That’s properly heart warming.