You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Has anyone watch it yet?
Just wondering what people's thoughts on it were. Even if your not particularly interested in the scandal it's an excellent drama and well worth a watch imo.
Watched episodes 1 & 2 last night. Great drama with Toby Jones doing what he does best. Also horrific to think that the PO could behave in the way they did.
And as for Paula Vennells 😡
I worked as a mail sorter for DHL when I was a student. The Mister Bates material used to be in brown envelopes back then. I was always tempted to keep a furtive address book and stalk them for blackmail purposes.
What I don't understand is how did people in the PO not spot the problem?
Surely even if one person thought the new system was catching workers with their hand in the till, the audits must have shown up that there were hundreds (thousands?) of stamps, foreign currency, etc being "sold" that never appeared anywhere else? So anyone of those people doing the audits must have had some clue as to what was happening?
A guy who used to work with my mum, before becoming a postmaster, lost his house, and reputation over this scandal. Unbelievable how it all got swept under the carpet
Would need to understand the relationship between Fujitsu and PO. It's possible that PO wasn't aware of how many interventions Fujitsu were making, but more questions and less dogma was required.
What I don’t understand is how did people in the PO not spot the problem?
They did.
I believe that one of the latest revelations to come out of the enquiry was that in many cases the Post Office Investigators didn't believe that a crime had been committed, and yet still the prosecutions went ahead.
The more evidence that comes out, the more it seems that at best there was a willful ignorance of the problem.
Would need to understand the relationship between Fujitsu and PO. It’s possible that PO wasn’t aware of how many interventions Fujitsu were making, but more questions and less dogma was required.
Again, there's plenty of evidence that's come out that there was willful ignorance (at best) on the part of the Post Office about this.
Yeh, we've watched all the episodes. It's an excellent dramatisation of the fiasco which is still not over.
The whole situation is disgusting and heads should roll.
nquiry was that in many cases the Post Office Investigators didn’t believe that a crime had been committed, and yet still the prosecutions went ahead.
very much at the behest of the chief execs. Whole thing is disgusting, i read a lot of the commentary on this last year/year before, and at face value some of this borders on criminal. the CEO/Chairman of both the PO and Fujitsu should be made to pay out financially as they all did very well from the deal to install.
It makes for uncomfortable viewing see so many people put to the sword by these bastards. How it has been allowed to happen and to drag on (and continues to drag on) is beyond me.
How it has been allowed to happen and to drag on (and continues to drag on) is beyond me.
Because it's going to be expensive to fix, so comes up against the Conservative treasury spending restrictions, and Labour are reluctant to push it because most of it happened on their watch.
Computer Weekly ‘owned’ this story from the start
Again, there’s plenty of evidence that’s come out that there was willful ignorance (at best) on the part of the Post Office about this.
Well of course, but understanding the motivations would help with understanding the root cause. I won't say to prevent it happening again, because that is just naïve, but lessons could still be learned.
I watched it, a shocking tale of cover-up and mis-management by those at the top.
The weird thing is, is that one of the whistleblowers in parliament who has since 2010/11, campaigned to seek justice for the victims, was MP Andrew Bridgen.
You know, the same crank, anti-vax MP Andrew Bridgen who got expelled from the Conservative Party for being an anti-semite after he kept on insisting that the government look thoroughly into the ongoing high levels of excess death here in the UK since the vaccine roll out.
https://twitter.com/ABridgen/status/1681257890890362880
Nowt so strange as politics eh?
From what I've read, the relevant parties have been less then forthcoming at the public enquiry, to the point that they've contradicted their own previous testimony.
A few factors seem to be:
- Most of the Post Office executive came from the Post Office side of the organisation, and there was a cultural belief in their superiority to the amateur "shopkeeper" type sub-postmasters
- There was a huge sunk cost in the system
- There was pressure to get the Post-Office into a fit state to privatise
- There likely would have been financial incentives to executives for a successful privatisation
- There was massive group think, and a belief that as the Post Office was a trusted organisation they could do no wrong
It's not clear whether race played a part either.
Yeah, we've watched the first 2 episodes and, yeah it's a great dramatisation. Bloody awful how the sub PO masters were treated. There's a couple of excellent documentary series about it on R4. The Great Post Office Trial. You can still listen to it on BBC Sounds.
It’s not clear whether race played a part either.
I don't think this was a factor, as it was people from all different walks of life and parts of the country.
I don’t think this was a factor, as it was people from all different walks of life and parts of the country.
As far as I know, nobody has analysed whether brown and black people were over-represented in the cohort that were prosecuted.
I don’t think this was a factor, as it was people from all different walks of life and parts of the country.
No, but (purely conjecture) the decision to go after a group of shopkeepers by a group of executives / board members could have a racist element to it, because those are stereotypically two very different demographics.
I’d have thought that speaking English as a second language would have had an influence cirtainly to investigations, but I don’t think that the bugs in the horizon system itself would have targeted people based on race.
Neither do I. But it may have influenced the decision to prosecute.
The book I read said that there was no definitive evidence yet, but thought that it was a subject worthy of further analysis.
It's very welcome to see this made into mainstream drama - hopefully more people will now share the barely-suppressed rage I feel about one of the worst, and most extensive miscarriages of justice in recent history, and the lack of redress for its victims, both in terms of the derisory financial compensation the sub-postmasters are being offered currently, and the fact that no-one who caused it has so far faced any kind of criminal charges.
They gave the former CEO of the Post Office her CBE in 2019 despite much of this scandal being already well known.
At least 61 of the sub-postmasters have died without receiving a penny in compensation. Some have committed suicide in the face of prosecution and bankruptcy.
Post Office Ltd needs to be renationalised, torn down and rebuilt from scratch. Its pathetic apology re-issued today still suggests it is trying to help the sub-postmasters get their due, when nothing could be further from the truth.
Neither do I. But it may have influenced the decision to prosecute.
I think that is quite possible, given that the decision to prosecute was made within the PO itself, and the department involved used paperwork with classifications such as 'negroid' as late as 2010.
Yet another example of Tories getting in a froth over benefit fraud, and coming up with a complex, unworkable solution to a problem that isn't really there in the grand scheme of things.
Yet another example of Tories getting in a froth over benefit fraud, and coming up with a complex, unworkable solution to a problem that isn’t really there in the grand scheme of things.
Horizon was originally pushed into use by Blair despite warnings it was a crock of shit, and the current Lib Dem leader was Postal Services Minister during the period when this was coming to light. No party comes out of this with their hands clean.
No party comes out of this with their hands clean
100%. I know many postmasters who will never vote libdem due to Ed Davey's involvement, or lack of.
the department involved used paperwork with classifications such as ‘negroid’ as late as 2010.
I'd forgotten about that little gem. Thanks for reminding me. I think.
the decision to prosecute was made within the PO itself
This would appear to be entirely normal for cash handling companies.
I know somebody who worked for a bank for a while where money went missing one day. They suspected who took the money (only one employee left the branch that day with a container big enough to carry the money), but as they didn't have the evidence to prove that they took the money, they simply swept it under the carpet.
The attitude was that unless they could pretty much guarantee a conviction, any external investigation would undermine customers trust in the bank. So unless they had the evidence, the police were never involved.
And having subsequently been involved with other cash handling companies, nothing much has changed. They'll run their own internal investigations, and only once they have the evidence, will they involve the police. The stories I got told would make you question anybody handling cash.
This would appear to be entirely normal for cash handling companies.
You misunderstand me. The Post Office doesn't have to involve the police. It has the power to launch criminal proceedings itself.
The stories I got told would make you question anybody handling cash.
Another reason we should be going cashless 🙂
As with most things like this, it’s not the original problem that ends up as the issue, it’s the cover-up.
That’s the real scandal. Knowing you’re in the wrong but going ahead and thinking you can bully people into submission and to hell with the consequences for the ‘little people’
Fair play to him for being given an OBE in the New Years honours list and telling them to stick it! They’re obviously still misjudging him if they think they can buy him off with baubles
The whole thing has overtones of Hillsborough though, where the establishment close ranks to ensure that nobody is ever held to account for it
The Post Office doesn’t have to involve the police. It has the power to launch criminal proceedings itself.
Although the PO had some additional rights due to its history as a public body any company or individual in England has the ability to launch criminal proceedings using private prosecution.
The numbers of private prosecutions in England is unclear because there is currently no central register
Its reported the numbers carried out by companies (such as insurers) have been increasing since 2010 due to the tories austerity measures.
There's a thread about the whole affair and the excellent coverage on R4 somewhere on the forum.
Will find it and post a link later.
oldtennisshoes
Another reason we should be going cashless 🙂
Quite the opposite - had the transactions been in physical tokens (cash), this could never have happened.
Exactly - it's a prime example for cash.
Although the PO had some additional rights due to its history as a public body any company or individual in England has the ability to launch criminal proceedings using private prosecution.
The numbers of private prosecutions in England is unclear because there is currently no central register
The issue is oversight of cases which carry a potential custodial sentence. PPs are rare, and those for such serious offences are often taken over by the DPP and become public prosecutions if they pass beyond the preliminary stages. Not so for the PO, they had hundreds of such cases going on without any threat of this additional scrutiny of their evidence and what was being disclosed to the defence.
Of course in Scotland there are no private prosecutions so any Post Office prosecutions had to be done via reporting them to the PF. Seems the Horizon issues were known at least a decade ago with Scottish cases being dropped.
"Pardoe was also shown a 2013 report which, again, he would have seen at the time. It stated that a Procurator Fiscal in Scotland had declined to let the Post Office proceed with a prosecution of a Subpostmaster on the basis of “issues with Horizon”."
https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/criminal-conspiracy-slowly-joining-the-dots/
Wasn't aware of that @irc . Shame our lot had no power to intervene (or inclination, I expect).
That whole article is a tough read.
Quite the opposite – had the transactions been in physical tokens (cash), this could never have happened.
Not really since the problem was the recording and transmission of the transactions (generally double counting when a transaction seemed to fail and hence was resent) not the means in which it was transacted. If anything cash would be worse since other methods would, in theory, be able to be cross checked.
Not so for the PO, they had hundreds of such cases going on without any threat of this additional scrutiny of their evidence and what was being disclosed to the defence.
Yes I know. However its not unique to the Post Office and it is something which is now being increasingly used by other companies due to the tories destruction of the justice system.
Best thing is win or lose so long as they can demonstrate minimal standards they can bill the taxpayer for it.
Happy thought eh?
Just finished watching this . I don't think I've ever shouted and sworn so much at the telly .When this first started I was a Postie and watched in disbelief as this gathered pace . I'm hoping that this series finally shines a light on a very unsavoury period of time . Paula Vennels could do the right thing and hand back her CBE then her and her co conspirators should be held to account for their collective part I ruining so many lives , as a priest you'd think knowing right from wrong would be her cornerstone.😡We also need the government to get their asses in gear and finally do the right thing for once .
monkeyboyjc
Full Member
Exactly – it’s a prime example for cash.
Well, no, the issue is/was the software was (as far as the sub postmasters were concerned) producing wrong numbers that didn't match the cash they had to hand. Doesn't matter if you took £1000 or £10,000 in a day if it's not your money and the system says you should have £1100/£10100.
vennells clearly has no intention of handing back her thoroughly undeserved cbe so it should be removed.
What about bonuses paid to her and other 'executives'?
I doubt they can be reclaimed but it would be appropriate for government and PO to say they were unmerited.
The numerous memory failures in both this and the Covid enquiry should be causing concern in the medical fraternity; the failures appear to be limited to senior politicians and business 'executives'.
Very puzzling.
If memory failures occurred with the same frequency in civil and criminal cases I'm sure that magistrates and judges would be 'understanding'.
I've been aware of this since it was first raised on radio 4 (before the Today Program snippet that was part of the programme), but the ITV drama brings it into sharp relief.
You may be interested in this petition calling for Paula Vemmells to be stripped of her CBE:
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/strip-paula-vennells-of-her-cbe
Well, no, the issue is/was the software was (as far as the sub postmasters were concerned) producing wrong numbers that didn’t match the cash they had to hand.
So count the cash, rather than relying on the computer.
It wasnt just cash, and they couldn't just count it as they had no access to their electronic ledger. So when the software fiddled it they couldn't check. Thats the whole point. Alan Bates was ex-IT so realised it was flawed.<br /><br />Fujitsu was a supplier and a few hundred yards from where I worked. Dodgy as ****. Also I hope Ed Davey, Jo Swinson & the Liberals get roasted for this as they were Post Office ministers at the time when in coalition with Crooked-Daves government and they dismissed it.
Did anybody notice Conservative MP for Stratford Upon Avon, Nadim Zahawi, playing himself in the mediation enquiry scene ?
That's him , I couldn't place his name.
@tillydog - that was exactly the problem, they were counting the cash, but the computer was telling them something different.
Well, no, the issue is/was the software was (as far as the sub postmasters were concerned) producing wrong numbers that didn’t match the cash they had to hand. Doesn’t matter if you took £1000 or £10,000 in a day if it’s not your money and the system says you should have £1100/£10100.
A cash audit showed no wrong doing.... In fact, this is why no wrong doing could be found in the initial investigation to Jo Hamilton, it's just that PO only looked at the digital figures and decided to prosecute based on digital figures only, not stock delivery and stock take (the actual cash and stock held in the branch). They disregarded the cash deliveries completely.
I run a post office, cash goes in, cash goes out we know how much cash we have on hand at all times we don't have control of the digital side. It was the digital side the horizon introduced that was in the wrong not the cash.
It wasnt just cash, and they couldn’t just count it as they had no access to their electronic ledger.
That was only after they were audited and suspended. We have access to transaction logs, which is how Mr bates flagged his issue with horizon - some transactions in his case we being doubled and logged twice. He went through every daily transaction and could reverse the duplicates. He still ended up with a £1200 deficit which PO blamed him for.
We as sub postmasters have to do weekly and monthly audits on Wednesdays. Count all the cash and stock and check it matched the system - this is when it flags a cash discrepancy. In Jo Hamilton's case she phoned the help line to resolve it and the fix doubled her digital discrepancy, it the doubled it again every week when ever she did a weekly or monthly audit but she manually lied to the system and said she was holding the cash (hence being convicted of false accounting). At this point she still had access to the digital log of cash in and cash out.
I was a regular customer of Noel Thomas from Anglesey between 2003 and 2005 and saw every day how unreliable the Horizon computer system was. When I heard a few years later that he had been sent to prison I was appalled and never doubted that he was innocent. The senior managers of Post Office and Fujitsu should be prosecuted for perverting the course of justice, and senior politicians from the three main parties should be publicly shamed for turning a blind eye while in a rush to privatise the Post Office. The face that these people are still waiting for compensation should be a national scandal.
The face that these people are still waiting for compensation should be a national scandal.
I'm pretty sure that most folks already think its a national scandal.
They are loads of things the government should be doing and should be a national scandal but, you know, stop those boats.
This is an interesting read for those interested in the technicalities:
For anybody wondering whether the programme is worth a watch, I would give you a resounding YES!
Not the real issue I know, but what about the house they have Mr Bates living in? Its amazing. It looks pretty much like my perfect house.
Yeah we thought that - when they were looking at houses sub 120k in ep1 saying "what are we gonna do? We can afford these!" And end up in a bloomin nice house in Snowdonia - if we lost our life savings and postoffice now, no chance I could afford to buy any house....
@tillydog I've just read that article (I'll hopefully watch the video later), and it amazes me the issues with logging, and that Fujitsu had full access with no logging of what they done while logged into accounts.
I can only hope that the ongoing public enquiry reveals who knew what and when. Going by what was written in that article, it appears the Post Office were initially unaware of what Fujitsu were doing, but at some point somebody should have been questioning what was happening.
The question I have, is why aren't all the convictions in this time period being quashed. A fair few of them are still being allowed to stand, when it seems patently obvious to me that short of catching a Sub Post-master walking out of the Post Office with a bag of money marked "swag" all other convictions are inherently unsafe.
As the legal system had a large part to play in these miscarriages of justice, I'm not sure the normal appeals process is the correct procedure here.
And end up in a bloomin nice house in Snowdonia –
The real Alan was on the radio on New Years Day, lovely chap. Talked about refusing an OBE bevause it was farcical that the CEO woman had received one.
Anyway, he was asked if the TV show was accurate and he said yes, except the house they moved to wasn't a twee cottage.
The question I have, is why aren’t all the convictions in this time period being quashed.
Many pleaded guilty out of terror and a bid to escape prison. They literally felt they had no other option because Horizon was deemed infallible. This is a tough hurdle to overcome in terms of getting the verdict overturned. I'm hoping one of the things that comes out of the inquiry is evidence of the sustained pressure and intimidation employed by Post Office Ltd to coerce these poor people into admitting it.
But yes, you'd have thought that the government should be moving to assist anyone who has been convicted on the basis of Horizon data, regardless of whether they pleaded guilty or not. Having said that, their arms-length approach to the Post Office means that even compensation hasn't been forthcoming in those who have had their convictions quashed.
Surely, a coerced guilty plea secured through presentation of evidence susequently considered baseless (and proven to be the basis of lies) means the conviction was also baseless?
Surely, a coerced guilty plea secured through presentation of evidence susequently considered baseless (and proven to be the basis of lies) means the conviction was also baseless?
I'm not sure there's even a mechanism to rescind a guilty plea?
"I’m not sure there’s even a mechanism to rescind a guilty plea?"
There is. Some postmasters have been cleared even though they pled guilty.
"In Hamilton & Ors v Post Office Limited [2021] EWCA Crim 577, the Court Appeal quashed the dishonesty convictions of many Sub-Post Masters, many of whom had pleaded guilty. There were significant disclosure failings in this case in that the defendants were not informed by the Post Office of known issues relating to the reliabity of the ‘Horizon’ computer system, when data from that very system was relied upon as robust and reliable evidence in the Post Office prosecution cases.This case falls within the the Category 2 unlawfulness above."
https://www.defence-barrister.co.uk/pleading-guilty-part-4
It was interesting that this topic came up at work today in a discussion with some of our newer leaders as an example of how culture can still be poor even when you think you've got a 'diverse' leadership team. The mistreatment of staff and those that leaders have a duty of care towards isn't resumed to a single demographic but we still buy into divisive arguments. See also Patel and Bravermen as further examples of how some individuals who ultimately give zero ****s about the minions.
Was interesting to listen in, and fair play to them for using this to pick apart their own team culture.
See also Patel and Bravermen as further examples of how some individuals who ultimately give zero **** about the minions.
Psychopathy isn't an exclusively male trait.
Anyway, the petition to strip Paula Vennells of her CBE that was started 3 years ago had fewer than 5000 signatures as of two days ago. This evening, it passed a quarter of a million and is still rising rapidly. The power of television.
The mistreatment of staff and those that leaders have a duty of care towards isn’t resumed to a single demographic but we still buy into divisive arguments
I am not aware of that argument generally being made vs the one that generally speaking a more diverse team can better represent the overall company. It depends though on whether the company culture is actually diverse or if it does have a bias in it against certain groups. If the latter then those members of those groups who have got embedded are likely to be overcompensating.
The classic example is "queen bee syndrome" although like most social science the evidence is mixed and debated.
Anyone who’s been to the Nant Francon valley will prob have a vague idea of where Alan’s TV house is…as you pass the Glyders on your left and Llyn Ogwen on the right, the road turns right, heading down into Bethesda just between Pen y Ole Wen on the right and Y Gran on the left…the house will be on the LH of the valley within 1/2 mile of that turn..I Googled it a few days ago. There are plenty of clues in the programme but Hayley Cropper painting outside the house was the clincher!
Of course in Scotland there are no private prosecutions so any Post Office prosecutions had to be done via reporting them to the PF. Seems the Horizon issues were known at least a decade ago with Scottish cases being dropped.
They still seem to have got a lot of dubious convictions through prior to that just like elsewhere in the UK.
2013 was the turning point year with the reporting from computer weekly and, I think by that time, Private Eye helping get the attention of MPs and various other people and any SPOs being dragged to court being able to produce a shedton of evidence that Horizon was anything but always right.
It was only in September last year that the first case got overturned in Scotland.
The question I have, is why aren’t all the convictions in this time period being quashed.
it would require a change in the law to simply quash them all automatically, so they go through the formal process of Appeal.
A fair few of them are still being allowed to stand, when it seems patently obvious to me that short of catching a Sub Post-master walking out of the Post Office with a bag of money marked “swag” all other convictions are inherently unsafe.
they are being allowed to stand in the sense that the appeal court has upheld them as sound convictions or that they just haven’t made it to court yet (or were some not being represented by the same lawyers - who have made a mess of it?) ? Some people may have decided not to ask the offences to be referred to the appeal court, or they may still be in the system - usually appeals with a similar “issue” are lumped together but that doesn’t mean all the Horizon cases - just all the cases which used the same specific tactics, or the same point of law or very similar cases evidentially etc. if you think that’s too slow - finding for the courts comes from government!
As the legal system had a large part to play in these miscarriages of justice, I’m not sure the normal appeals process is the correct procedure here.
the only alternative is for the government to change the law - that’s a radical move just because it’s high profile - the correct process does seem to be the appeal court, and it seems to be largely effective but very, very slow. An important point is that it took very expensive lawyers spotting a way to make a big payout for anyone to really understand the legal deficiencies in the cases (eg. The basic question of contract law; the difference between liable for all losses and liable for losses which were your fault (a point perhaps too subtle for the programme but I believe was a key point of some cases - because the PO didn’t seem to know it’s own rules and wrote letters misleading people) as well as issues of fairness because a suspended manager had no way to access data to support their defence. Those were all issues that a well funded, competent defence lawyer could have brought out in the original trials. Next time someone tells you legal aid is a gravy train - remember any of us could find ourselves wrongly accused, out a job and desperate. You want the best representation. The purpose of defence lawyers is not to get the guilty off as everyone assumes, it’s to stop the state taking piss in prosecutions. A right to a fair trial is a key part of the Human Rights Act that some people are quite keen to repeal - no worries there because the powers of the state would never do anything to harm legitimate citizens eh?
Oh my...
https://twitter.com/TomWitherow/status/1743018338719044089
Please, please, please let this be true...
To cap this off yesterday Fujitsu were awarded another contract from DEFRA worth £19m! https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/04/fujitsu_flood_contract_extension/ The comments are worth a read where one author alleges that they Fujitsu have stolen around £800m of pension benefits from those deador close to death and not refunded the money to us.
Why are we giving more money to this fraudulent company?
Thankfully post office and Fujitsu parted ways a few years ago. We've a new system replacing Horizon over the next couple of years - not sure who the partner company is though.
Just finished watching this.
The only word for it is disgusting.
Throwing innocent people under the bus in order to protect a company's reputation. Its corporate malfeasance at its worse
Throwing innocent people under the bus in order to protect a company’s reputation.
Literally, in the case of the Martin Griffiths...😞
I don’t think this has been picked up yet, apologies if it has -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67899189
hopefully that will link to the news yesterday that the police are investigating.