[Closed] MPs and that pay rise....

As a civil servant, I agree.

On the other hand, when senior managers in various public bodies - NHS Trusts being the obvious target - are being paid multiple times the PMs salary, something is wrong somewhere. Not sure what the solution is to stop the madness at either end though

it's not a surprise.

What is a surprise is that we all just accept it...

If we want the best and brightest to go into politics then we need decent salaries. MPs salaries are pretty low by industry standards, most professionals would take a pay cut to become an MP. With the current systems we seem to get people who have either married money (Clegg etc) or inherited it (Osbourne) which isn't healthy as they have absolutely zero real world experience and just go Eton to Oxbridge to Parliament all funded by a trust fund.

So, I'm quite happy with the 10% pay rise.

multiple times the PMs salary

Remember the PM gets a couple of houses, expenses, and sales of books, consultancy, etc afterward, plus the insanely good pension and the payout if they're not reelected. (As does their spouse, and then their family gets to dodge inheritance tax.)

MPs salaries are pretty low by industry standards, most professionals would take a pay cut to become an MP.

They're paid a shitload more than I or my colleagues.

footflaps - Member

If we want the best and brightest to go into[s] politics[/s] then we need decent salaries.

Replace with every other government institution which is facing freezes (ie, cuts). Do we not want the best and brightest being doctors, or teachers, or actually running government departments? Nah.

But remember, we're all in this together. And of course IPSA are independent and MPs do what they say, you can't overrule an independent pay commission. Except when it's the NHS one. Or it's your own and it's recommending that your perks are cut.

They're paid a shitload more than I or my colleagues.

That as may be, however there are still a lot of professionals paid a lot more than MPs (Doctors, Architects, Lawyers etc).

If we really want the best to become MPs, you have to make it an attractive offer. It's also a pretty precarious job, no guaranteed tenure (election could be called at any time) and then you're out on your ear. They're cutting back on the redundancy / resettlement allowance as well, so it's no longer as generous as it was.

So to be an MP you're asking someone to give up a well paid job in a career, take a pay cut, accept a salary for 3-5 years (say) and then possibly just get made redundant. I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

But remember, we're all in this together. And of course IPSA are independent and MPs do what they say, you can't overrule an independent pay commission. Except when it's the NHS one. Or it's your own and it's recommending that your perks are cut.

Do you not see the ironing* in your argument?

If you want better political decisions, you probably need better politicians....

*STW TM

If you want better political decisions, you probably need better politicians....

Ones not motivated by money, perhaps?

Ones not motivated by money, perhaps?

The Eton Mafia? Coz that's working out so well...

There are loads of good people who would recieve a pay rise if elected as an MP. We currently get people in PR, law and finance who want to get their snout in the trough.

footflaps - Member

Do you not see the ironing* in your argument?

If you want better political decisions, you probably need better politicians....

Uh. In order to stop our politicians hypocritically paying themselves more, we have to pay them more?

I'd totally post a gif of Mal Reynolds being speechless here, if I could be bothered.

footflaps - Member

If we want the best and brightest to go into politics then we need decent salaries. ...
So, I'm quite happy with the 10% pay rise.

so we can look forward to a 10% improvemnent in how everything is going if I follow your logic correctly?

performance related pay based on the minimum wage would be a better motivator perhaps? 😀

performance related pay based on the minimum wage would be a better motivator perhaps?

Some fixed multiple of the national median wage would be fair.

Some fixed multiple of the national median wage would be fair.

Yep, that would probably be best.

so we can look forward to a 10% improvemnent in how everything is going if I follow your logic correctly?

Possibly long term.

Currently you only get people backed by trust funds who have spent their whole lives isolated from vast segments of the population at Eton / Oxbridge and then straight into Politics. To them the salary is just pocket money. If you want the best brains running the country you will have to pay top end salaries, just as you do in the private sector. And in the UK you don't get best brains for £60-£70k.

Currently you only get people backed by trust funds who have spent their whole lives isolated from vast segments of the population at Eton / Oxbridge and then straight into Politics.

My MP went to a local state secondary, then the same 6th form and uni that I went to. Her kids are in local state schools.

If you want the best brains running the country you will have to pay top end salaries, just as you do in the private sector. And in the UK you don't get best brains for £60-£70k.

I and my colleagues would disagree with this.

[i]Currently you only get people backed by trust funds who have spent their whole lives isolated from vast segments of the population at Eton / Oxbridge and then straight into Politics. To them the salary is just pocket money. If you want the best brains running the country you will have to pay top end salaries, just as you do in the private sector. And in the UK you don't get best brains for £60-£70k. [/i]

Agree, but how do we make sure that the same mob won't still be MP's - just costing us more?

I don't necessarily disagree they aren't paid fantastically (though with all the perks it is very comfortable)

The problem is the timing, given what they are pushing through and then to give themselves a pretty large rise whilst telling everyone else they have to make cuts. How's about they turn around the economy [i]first[/i] and then give themselves a rise?

Given they are voted in by the public, surely they are bright enough to realise the majority of people will see this as completely hypocritical?

Not just a payrise it follows through to their pensions. A £7k payrise adds £85k to their pension entitlement. An MP who serves for 15 years now has a pension worth £1.2m To put this into context a private sector pension over an entire 40 year working lifetime cannot exceed that amount without attracting punitive tax.

Very few politicians are attracted by the salaries which backbench MPs receive imo. Obviously some individuals such as Tony Blair are attracted by the much bigger picture and the huge potential for great personal financial fulfillment which a parliamentary career can offer.

the last time mps got a py rise we the people objected loudly so call me dave set up an independent group to reccomend pay rises for mps.. and here we go they came up with this call me dave dont want it many mps see it as perverse..

i have a mate whos an mp a tory.. he comes from the wrong side of the tracks went to secondary school joined the army as a private left and worked for the council.. sound all round decent bloke.. no silver spoon just hard graft..

I and my colleagues would disagree with this.

I'm curious as to what industry?

If we really want the best to become MPs

They're cutting back on the redundancy / resettlement allowance as well, so it's no longer as generous as it was.

So to be an MP you're asking someone to give up a well paid job in a career, take a pay cut, accept a salary for 3-5 years (say) and then possibly just get made redundant. I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

Mind, if that's not enough you can collect a few favours owed by the beneficiaries of your "expert parliamentary advice" during your tenure

I'm curious as to what industry?

Mikes a teacher IIRC..

It's worth pointing out that anybody on here could become an MP if they wanted to be and make a difference.

Better than whinging and apathy.

anybody on here could become an MP if they wanted to

Unlikely imo. There's very few people on here that strike as the sort of material the electorate would want to vote for. imho

You never know until you try, no point being defeated before you give it a go.

Which STWer would you vote for to represent you in Parliament ?

The only one which comes to my mind is binners if only to liven up the floor of the House. But I wouldn't trust him to vote correctly when the division bell is rung.

Captain Flashy of course!!

Duh!!!

It's worth pointing out that anybody on here could become an MP if they wanted to be and make a difference.

Load of bollocks.

Equality of opportunity only exists in theory, the reality is breaking into that system is nigh on impossible for an outsider.

Remember the PM gets a couple of houses, expenses, and sales of books, consultancy, etc afterward, plus the insanely good pension and the payout if they're not reelected. (As does their spouse, and then their family gets to dodge inheritance tax.)

Careful now. None of that is "free" as you imply. They are trading of their reputation and standing and using their contacts to earn a post term fortune. Everyone had to earn a living, and they've mechanisms to do this, but are not "given" this for free.

With regard to the public sector, what is often missed is that in the majority of cases, reduce public sector resources have resulted in more effective (measured by outcome, and reduced cost of service) services delivered using tax payers money. That's no different from a private sector company squeezing the life out of an employee for all they are worth. Welcome to the real world.

Now, back to salaries - there are always grafters and lazy sods in every neck of he woods. Sure, there are some MP who appear to milk and above average salary, whilst there are those that deserve it. Would you take the stress, constant travel, constant requirement to be politically up to date and on trend (this reading and study doesn't always happen in the 9-5) responsibility and requirement of the PM's 24hr 7 day a week job for £65k a year? Not me thanks.

I think it's only fair that they get 10% so soon after there 11% pay rise. Just as it was fair NHS workers received their first pay rise in years of a massive 1% which of course they had to fight for.

I would argue politicians are no longer needed technology should make parliament a thing of the past and we should move to direct government voting on each issue with an efficient non corruptible civil service to implement the wishes of the people, your local representative results from the age when parliament was far away and news traveled very slowly its 300 years old and totally out of date and so open to corruption.

With regard to the public sector, what is often missed is that in the majority of cases, reduce public sector resources have resulted in more effective (measured by outcome, and reduced cost of service) services delivered using tax payers money.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

footflaps - Member
They're paid a shitload more than I or my colleagues.
That as may be, however there are still a lot of professionals paid a lot more than MPs (Doctors, Architects, Lawyers etc).

Average pay for barristers = £49,000. Doctors = £50,000. Architect = £33,000. (Payscale.com - definitions may vary)

Minimum pay for MP = £74,000

If we really want the best to become MPs, you have to make it an attractive offer.

The best based on what?

It's also a pretty precarious job, no guaranteed tenure (election could be called at any time) and then you're out on your ear. They're cutting back on the redundancy / resettlement allowance as well, so it's no longer as generous as it was.

If pay was linked to the precariousness of jobs the labour market would look very different! There are a hell of a lot of jobs more precarious than being an MP.

I'm curious as to what industry?

Mikes a teacher IIRC.

Yes, on ~50% of an MP's salary.

Pay freeze for the last few years, worsened pension arrangements, increased class sizes, and more contact hours.

IT'S NOT A F***ING JOB.

IF YOU ARE AN MP AND YOU'RE DOING IT FOR THE SALARY YOU NEED TO GET A DIFFERENT JOB.

THIS IS WHY WE HAVE THE BUNCH OF TW*TS WE DO IN PARLIAMENT

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHBANG >head explodes<

Average pay for barristers = £49,000. Doctors = £50,000. Architect = £33,000. (Payscale.com - definitions may vary)

You'll see my post above that I think the payrise is outrageous. My own view is MPs should be paid £100k+ with zero office / living expenses, state provided 1 bed apartment for when in London, free public transport travel and that there should be 350 not 650 MPs

I’m of the opinion that MP’s deserve the pay rise. What I’d like to see in return is a fair and equitable expenses and subsistence allowance in line with current large organisations in the City. That means fully disclosed and accounted for.
I think the “job”, for it really is a job of an MP is a difficult one. We may have this image of them all lounging around on 4hr lunch breaks and endless Ascot luvvies trailing along by their side but in reality it’s not like that. The red tape and lack of a cohesive streamlined organisation, efficient in production is the biggest annoyance in my eyes. Reforms have been passed and are coming through, but to me it’s the link with the Upper Echelons of the Civil Service and Heads of Govt that cause the greatest headaches and roadblocks. A lack of cohesive direction means we slip and slither from one direction to the other and endless change means no real channel to follow. No wonder it attracts a certain type of person to become an MP.
What I do see though this time around is a very large % of Women MP’s in this Govt. Finally a % or the population can be heard and loudly too, whilst this may take some time to come through I applaud the direction. What we could now do with is a reform of the HoL and get some elected folks in their and I think we’ll be just about stable.
As is 10% might sound outrageous, and it is, but it doesn’t parry up with even VP’s in large organisations.

These numbers are way too low.

I'm surprised Barristers are as high as that. And remember that's their gross income as they're self employed. Junior barristers working in the criminal bar get paid as little as £50 a day. And it still costs £25k+ to train. Why do you think there's so much noise generated by legal aid cuts - no-one's prepared to earn less than their debt repayments….

The idea that any of the professions are a guaranteed way to gravy is particularly outdated. I stopped working as a solicitor last year and my pay has already risen, ahem, materially more than the MPs' proposed pay rise….

As is 10% might sound outrageous, and it is, but it doesn’t parry up with even VP’s in large organisations.

But a typical back bench MP isn't doing a job equivalent to a VP in a large organisation.

Guess the profession:

* Pay point 1 £21,684
* Pay point 2 £23,401
* Pay point 3 £25,252
* Pay point 4 £27,252
* Pay point 5 £29,409
* Pay point 6 £31,736
* Pay point 7 £34,382
* Pay point 8 £35,628
* Pay point 9 £37,008

These numbers are way too low

I work in an established and reasonably successful architect's practice, and I can confirm that those numbers are not too low.
Fully qualified architects are paid a good chunk less than half of the MP salaries, and company directors are still some way below the MPs number too.

£33k average is probably about right for an average, including regional variations in salaries which are not insignificant.

I'm curious as to what industry?

Mikes a teacher IIRC.

Yes, on ~50% of an MP's salary.

OK, how much does a head teacher earn? Staff of what maybe 100-200, budget of a few million.

MPs collectively manage a budget of 750 billion and responsible for 65 million people....

I think they're very much underpaid.

Guess the profession:

* Pay point 1 £21,684
* Pay point 2 £23,401
* Pay point 3 £25,252
* Pay point 4 £27,252
* Pay point 5 £29,409
* Pay point 6 £31,736
* Pay point 7 £34,382
* Pay point 8 £35,628
* Pay point 9 £37,008

"pay point" = public sector, innit. And we all know who's to blame for EVERYTHING, don't we?

As is 10% might sound outrageous, and it is, but it doesn’t parry up with even VP’s in large organisations.

Or even small ones, we have 85 employees and all our management team earn way more than an MP and the CEO earns 2x the PM's salary.

miketually - Member
As is 10% might sound outrageous, and it is, but it doesn’t parry up with even VP’s in large organisations.
But a typical back bench MP isn't doing a job equivalent to a VP in a large organisation.

An neither was a manager or exec in public sector until recently, AND thier job security was much higher. You laughed at my prior post Miketually, but its actually true in a lot - not all - of cases. Local government is very crap at telling people how well they are doing or good they are performing, yet bad news spreads very quickly. Some very good innovation and efficiency has risen to the top during this austerity period, that you might not have seen otherwise.

OK, how much does a head teacher earn? Staff of what maybe 100-200, budget of a few million.

That varies by school size, but the average primary head is on £52,000 and average secondary head earned £73,000 (according to https://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6039350).

MPs collectively manage a budget of 750 billion and responsible for 65 million people....

Backbench MPs walk through the lobby that they're told to by their whip, and turn up to some photo opportunities. The MPs who are actually in charge of anything get paid more.

I think they're very much underpaid.

An interesting sentence from the above article: "Yet while Mr Gove may only receive an MP’s salary, he more than doubled his income last year through his journalism and his appearances on Newsnight Review."

As is 10% might sound outrageous, and it is, but it doesn’t parry up with even VP’s in large organisations.

Or even small ones, we have 85 employees and all our management team earn way more than an MP and the CEO earns 2x the PM's salary.

Taking into account expenses, perks and additional income streams?

In what industry?

public sector, innit. And we all know who's to blame for EVERYTHING, don't we?

True; I spent the nineties and noughties snorting coke, quaffing champers and lending cash to people who couldn't afford it.

My Sisters a Headmistress in a Fenland Comp. It's kinda hard work for her and whilst I appreciate she works hard, she does, her salary of circa £70k does seem reasonable considering all the holidays she gets..

I await the flame for bringing up the holidays , but in reality it's true.

Some very good innovation and efficiency has risen to the top during this austerity period, that you might not have seen otherwise.

In what sector do you work?

I await the flame for bringing up the holidays , but in reality it's true.

How do they compare to MPs' holidays?

mikeactually you seem determined to focus on the point that MP additional income seems to arrive free, that the don't do any work for it. Did someone else write Gove's journalism? Did he have a stand in on TV - and newsnight eh - do you work 10-11pm (or whatever late night time its on?)

If I was willing to put in more effort than I do and work for a second income in the interest of cash generation, I might. But more likely, I'm not going to.

miketually - Member
Some very good innovation and efficiency has risen to the top during this austerity period, that you might not have seen otherwise.
In what sector do you work?

Public sector. Working with senior managers to achieve just that, first hand. So I see it and the issues causes and how they are addressed every single day, first hand.

mikeactually you seem determined to focus on the point that MP additional income seems to arrive free, that the don't do any work for it. Did someone else write Gove's journalism? Did he have a stand in on TV - and newsnight eh - do you work 10-11pm (or whatever late night time its on?)

If I was willing to put in more effort than I do and work for a second income in the interest of cash generation, I might. But more likely, I'm not going to.

It's more the fact that MPs seem to have an awful lot of time to spend writing books, newspaper articles, advising companies, etc. Perhaps being an MP isn't a full time job, and the pay should reflect this?

Michael Gove spoke in three Parliamentary debates last year. How many Newsnight Review appearances?

Public sector. Working with senior managers to achieve just that, first hand. So I see it and the issues causes and how they are addressed every single day, first hand.

An axe swinger?

Taking into account expenses, perks and additional income streams?

In what industry?

Industry is Telecoms.

Additional income streams are of course optional and earned by hard work. E.g. a teacher could spend their very long summer holiday writing best selling biographies or touring the US lecture circuit and also earn additional income. As could I, but as I'm paid enough for my 9-5 I just potter about in the garden and go to the gym.

Have you thought about offering your services to Newsnight review?

Additional income streams are of course optional and earned by hard work. E.g. a teacher could spend their very long summer holiday writing best selling biographies or touring the US lecture circuit and also earn additional income. As could I, but as I'm paid enough for my 9-5 I just potter about in the garden and go to the gym.

I spend mine recovering.

I spend mine recovering.

Have you thought about becoming an MP?

You also seem to be doing something wrong, all the teachers I know spend 6 weeks travelling all over the world having one hell of a time in the summer.

sack the lot of them, turn it into something more like jury service, you get called up for a year, payed a decent wage, no party leaders, no party, just one vote on every issue. i bet most people would be able to do a better job than has been done in the past 50 years...

Have you thought about offering your services to Newsnight review?

That little perk seems to be available only to people in certain careers. Another perk of the job, perhaps?

Have you thought about becoming an MP?

Councillor, yes. But that doesn't bring the same media profile.

You also seem to be doing something wrong, all the teachers I know spend 6 weeks travelling all over the world having one hell of a time in the summer.

I must be. We're having a week in Scotland. I need to sell a few more novels, and take some cash back handers.

How many Newsnight Review appearances?

Don't know but he didn't get paid for any, the only other income* he had were royalties from books he published in the past of a few hundred quid.

When there was a commission a few years ago, it was decided that MPs salaries should be similar to those of a head teacher of a secondary school so they are due a rise to £73,000 based on your figures. Happily this is what IPSO has recommended.

EDIT: Other than ministerial salary.

No Mikeactually, tidying up after.

You've made it apparent you choose to be disgruntled and/or envious yet decide not to change your own circumstances. Probably best to leave it there. Your career, your choice. Life is unfair also just deal with it and move on.

the electorate can fully trust in parliment to fairly self regulate. 😆

Commons Speaker Mr Bercow has appointed the former Conservative MP for Hexham Peter Atkinson to sit on the panel which will appoint the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority board.

Mr Atkinson, who stepped down at the last election, was one of a group of MPs who tried to block the publication of expenses claims that uncovered the scandal which heaped shame on Parliament three years ago.

You've made it apparent you choose to be disgruntled and/or envious yet decide not to change your own circumstances. Probably best to leave it there. Your career, your choice. Life is unfair also just deal with it and move on.

Harsh, but fair.

So, if we are keeping things in line with headmasters.

Can we have an OFSTED type report for MP's and their constituencies as well?

good for the goose and all that.

Can we have an OFSTED type report for MP's and their constituencies as well?

Isn't that what elections are for?

I agree ^^ with Teachers could do other things with their time too..

Back to my Sis, she offers out her services as a Private Tutor for Applied Maths to the underprivileged/hard to teach kids in the Cambs area. She works 2 w/e's out of 4 and 1 week in her half term, 3 weeks in her summer holidays.. She gets paid £750pd by the LA for this.
To be fair to her she deserves every penny, but clearly not all Teachers are/want to/able to do this otherwise they would.

Therefore my Sis has a great time when she is on holiday and yes she often goes off around the world.

To counter that I know someone who teaches nursery school kids, has done for the last 20 years and just been made redundant, she was on shite pay, has now a shite redundancy package too.. So now what does she do? Volunteers in another local school where they are hard pushed to employ any more teachers.

I also know an Ambulance Rapid Response "doctor" who spends, get this her words, 70% of her time sitting either in her estate car in a layby near the A1 Lincoln area or at home waiting to be called out. Argue the toss out of that one but she too has been doing this job for the last 10 years and despite working odd shifts occasionally she loves doing "bugger all and getting paid for it" Her words.

Can we have an OFSTED type report for MP's and their constituencies as well?

Isn't that what elections are for?

er, no , that is just some sort of (un)reality TV event AFAIK

OFSTED

Every week, we carry out hundreds of inspections and regulatory visits throughout England and publish the results online. We help providers that are not yet of good standard to improve, monitor their progress and share with them the best practice we find.

Our goal is to achieve excellence in [s]education[/s] government and [s]skills for learners of all ages, and[/s] in the care of [s]children and young people.[/s] taxpayers and everyone else who has a right to be fairly represented.

You've made it apparent you choose to be disgruntled and/or envious yet decide not to change your own circumstances. Probably best to leave it there. Your career, your choice. Life is unfair also just deal with it and move on.

Not at all.

It's pretty evident that MP pay increases are a PR disaster. And, given that the present focus of the current administration on public sector austerity, it seems perfectly reasonable for employees in that sector to question the value for money of these increases (not least because it was MPs who corruptly abused their own expenses system and it was MPs who are - around 50%* - at fault for for the recent parlous state of the economy).

And, because part of the job description of an MP is to tell the public what's best for them, it's incumbent on them to be prepared to be challenged by those whom they are asking to take the greatest burden of "economic correction".

*Since it's pretty standard for an incumbent administration to throw all blame for past failings at those who were in government when the economy collapsed.

ourmaninthenorth has nailed it. I have no problem with MP's pay, I have no problem with them getting a pay rise. what I do have a problem with is them sacking millions of public sector workers and freezing the pay of others whilst raiding their pensions. Meanwhile I cant find any good science teachers to replace those I have lost to private education or moving away from the area to a place they an afford to buy a house.

what I do have a problem with is them sacking millions of public sector workers and freezing the pay of others whilst raiding their pensions.

Sadly 36.9% of the voting electorate disagree with you and chose more austerity as the cure to all our ills!

footfaps nailed it!

the 63.1% majority of those that actualy bothered to vote disagree 😉

@mike we need to see the whole picture for that pay point table and factor in pension benefits. In many jobs those are worth nearly 50% of salary at market rates.

@footflaps austerity is the least bad option, it's not a cure for all ills I don't think anyone has said that it was.

In most jobs you are out if you cannot do it right.

edit: well not strictly true, you will find plenty of fast talkers passing the blame in most walks of life..

I also know an Ambulance Rapid Response "doctor" who spends, get this her words, 70% of her time sitting either in her estate car in a layby near the A1 Lincoln area or at home waiting to be called out. Argue the toss out of that one but she too has been doing this job for the last 10 years and despite working odd shifts occasionally she loves doing "bugger all and getting paid for it" Her words.

Can you find out which service that is I might transfer there.

@mike we need to see the whole picture for that pay point table and factor in pension benefits. In many jobs those are worth nearly 50% of salary at market rates.

All that is publically available information for teaching: currently, the employer pays 14.1% and the employee pays between 6.4% and 12.4% depending upon salary (I pay 9.5%). Average salary pension, accruing 1/80 of average salary per year service. Retire with full benefits at 68.

[url= http://schoolsweek.co.uk/teacher-training-applicants-down-on-2014-figures-ucas-figures-show/ ]Does that add enough to attract the best and brightest into teaching?[/url]

the employer pays 14.1% and the employee pays between 6.4% and 12.4% depending upon salary (I pay 9.5%). Average salary pension, accruing 1/80 of average salary per year service. Retire with full benefits at 68.

Its a shitload more than I get in my high technology private US.org working in London, plus your annual leave is massively more than mine.