[Closed] Mountain resscue

Isn't it about time we were all insured to go to the hills or bike?

no.

It's a tough one, the system is volunteer based - do you suggest it should be professional/paid?

How much would a retained scheme cost, what happens if you are not insured? What is classed as out in the mountains/hills?

no

All I'm saying is what if the volunteers retired and no one was there to fill their place? Who would help?

The police. As thats what they do right now.

And that the air ambulance would have a guaranteed funding instead of relying on contributions.
Without contributions would they have to stop?

What about this story?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-23919767

Dont know about south of the border, but up here it seems to be a bit of an honour to work for the MRTs.

but what about this then?

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-23789179 ]Dartmoor rescuers see rise in dementia searches[/url]

I think the people you should be asking are the MRT volunteers. Not a bunch of Audi driving fat IT exec weekend warriors off here.

None of us would dare go to the Alps, Canada or anywhere else without some kind of cover but expect it to be free here.

Let's celebrate the fact that we don't charge folk for rescue, and that volunteers are happy to give up their time and energy for people who are in genuine distress or danger.

Sure, there are some abuses of the system (not the examples you give), but the need for insurance would act as a barrier to access for occasional visitors to our mountains and wilderness areas, and a disincentive to many members of MRT, who do it from a love of the mountains and a desire to help people enjoy them safely.

By all means we should exempt MRT from VAT, that would be a good thing.

I think the people you should be asking are the MRT volunteers.

Can't he be offended on their behalf? 😉

Isn't it about time we were all insured to go to the hills or bike?

No

None of us would dare go to the Alps, Canada or anywhere else without some kind of cover but expect it to be free here.

That's because there are other issues to consider like different rescue systems, different health care arrangements, repatriation in the event of an accident etc.

I just think these helpers should be appreciated financially for the work they do.

Then donate. Stick the change from your round or the change from your lunch in the collection box as you pass by, set up a direct debit, use just giving. Any, and all help is gratefully received.

I'm pleased that MR in this country is free, and as an MR volunteer I'd prefer it to stay that way.

Everyone who volunteers in MR does it because they have a passion for the hills, and a desire to help folk out. Adding a financial reward/incentive for doing what we do could alter the reasons why people do give up their time to help.

I for one wouldn't mind 30 odd quid per month fro insurance so that should anything bad happen (god forbid) I know evreybody involved would get paid.
Why do people think this is acceptable when riding or climbing in Whistler but not here in uk?

By all means we should exempt MRT from VAT, that would be a good thing.

If people could "sign" this petition, that'd be fantastic.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/44778

No

People without insurance would still need rescuing.

I'm in the local MR team, there is no shortage of volunteers. Everyone does it because they want to.

Dementia mispers are a big deal but over time you will see teams evolving to adapt for this, probably with greater links to to the community with volunteers searchers, as opposed to fully trained MR personnel.

The feeling may be slightly different for the really busy teams like Langdale but I doubt it.

Big caveat to this being that I am still a newbie, trainee member, not necessarily qualified to represent the views of the wizened older team members!

Iolo - sounds good. You can direct debit £30pm to MR then. You'll still get picked up, they'll get recompensed in a way they'd welcome very much, and if insurance becomes compulsory, you can stop the DD and take out a policy.

I for one wouldn't mind 30 odd quid per month fro insurance so that should anything bad happen

I'm sure your local MRT would be deleted to help you set up a direct debit for regular contribution!

None of us would dare go to the Alps, Canada or anywhere else without some kind of cover

[quote=iolo ]I for one wouldn't mind 30 odd quid per month fro insurance so that should anything bad happen (god forbid) I know evreybody involved would get paid.
Why do people think this is acceptable when riding or climbing in Whistler but not here in uk?

So if we turn the volunteers into paid workers with all the [s]crap[/s] levels of management that go with it we would probably end up with a bloated system where people sit waiting for a call costing a huge amount more milking insurance companies and levelling a huge amount of fees at anyone who wants to go outside of a car park.

Having signs up at every footpath/BW junction stating that you need insurance to walk down there would probably be off putting to most people.

I would but what about the air ambulance? All I'm saying is I'd like everyone to get paid.Is that such a bad thing?

My team doesn't get called out enough to justify salaries, you could look at a retained system but, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

How does it work in France exactly? I think most rescuers are still volunteers (local mountain guides) as they are the ones with the skills and knowledge required. But if a helicopter ride is required, then the rescued person is charged for that.

I don't think its a matter that anyone without insurance is banned from the hills, just that if it does go wrong you may have a bill to foot later, and you may prefer to be insured to cover that cost.

I suspect half the reason a lot of these people volunteer (especially the RNLI) is that, whilst it is serious business, they get to spend time playing outdoors with some very tasty kit. So if you want to "reward" them then donating money so they can buy more cool stuff would probably be a decent way of doing it!

I suspect half the reason a lot of these people volunteer (especially the RNLI) is that, whilst it is serious business, they get to spend time playing outdoors with some very tasty kit.

To be honest, I wouldn't call being phoned at 7pm in the middle of winter to walk into the NF of the Ben, in pitch black freezing conditions, to try and find/rescue someone stuck 5 pitches into a route as "playing outdoors", especially given that you're occasionally taking a body home with you (both mentally and physically).

Think you may have missed the point of MRT entirely.

I for one wouldn't mind 30 odd quid per month fro insurance so that should anything bad happen

Is this for when you beat someone up for riding on secret trails????

I have me duelling banjos waiting for them pigface 8)

Think you may have missed the point of MRT entirely.

I used to dream of being a good enough climber to be in the MRT! Imagine working with the great Hamish MacInnes. The staff at the old Climbers Shop/Frank Davies (in the days of just them and the small original John Gaynor/s in A'side) were part of the Langdale MRT and I held them in awe.

OP, no BTW!

Personally, I think it would be perfectly reasonable to render an invoice for the service. Up to the individual how to cover/cope with that, certainly insurance may well be one way that would work for many. Ultimately if it made people stop and think for a moment before thoughtlessly or needlessly putting themselves in harms way it would be a good thing.

Imagine working with the great Hamish MacInnes.

I sit at the next table to the legend often on a Sunday morning. A group of locals (including a friend of mine) meet regularly for breakfast, we tend to join later and listen to the subdued conversations. True gentleman 🙂

Really horrible idea that anyone should have to pay to use the countryside. At what point would the insurance become a necessity; on a footpath, the minute you touch a rock, above a given altitude, below a certain temperature, above a given incline, when you enter a national park (who's ever needed rescuing from the new forest)?

If the specialist rescue services wanted to be paid, and every time I've seen them comment on this they don't but assuming they did then that payment would have to come out of general taxation. Any 'pay to play' insurance would be detrimental to participation and the last thing we need in our society is another obstacle that gets in the way of people getting some exercise.

If any kind of payment system did come into practice then I'd expect it would entirely change the way that the services operated and were used by the public.

Ultimately if it made people stop and think for a moment before thoughtlessly or needlessly putting themselves in harms way it would be a good thing.

Unfortunately it would also make people think twice before taking their kids for a walk in the Lake District in good conditions. We should think very carefully before labelling our national parks as places where you need insurance to step off the tarmac.

As others have said, it would create an unwanted bureaucracy around the charging, chasing and division of the funds.

If there was a lot of noise from MRTs about charging people, I might consider it, but the majority of MRT members would be diametrically opposed, so if they're happy, why are we trying to pretend that the system needs to be rebuilt?

Is there a pair of Terradactyls on the wall in his honour?

I was a bit too young for Brown and Whillans in their prime, but HM was the wise old man (even then) bringing in the young guns like Bonnington, Haston (cried when he was hit by that avalanche in Leysin), Clough, Scott, Estcourt and then Tasker and Boardman. Seemed a sad period when so many of that group lost their lives.

There's an old picture of MacInnes in what look like gaberdine trousers probably on the Ben that is lodged in my memory,

Unfortunately it would also make people think twice before taking their kids for a walk in the Lake District in good conditions. We should think very carefully before labelling our national parks as places where you need insurance to step off the tarmac.

They seem to manage in other European countries where rescue charges are applied, in fact I would say most European countries are more active outdoors than the UK.

Unfortunately it would also make people think twice before taking their kids for a walk in the Lake District in good conditions. We should think very carefully before labelling our national parks as places where you need insurance to step off the tarmac.

As others have said, it would create an unwanted bureaucracy around the charging, chasing and division of the funds.

I've not noticed that happening in respect of Ambulance trips for motorcyclists and other "self inflicted" problems, where that has been happening since the 70's. Nor is it noticable in the Alps where helicopter rescues are charged as a norm. In essence its the same argument about the Royals being a toursit attration. i.e.not a shred of evidence to support the supposition, but if you say it loud and often enough people start to believe it. That apart, in what way would making people more cautious of the consequences of say, going up Snowden with inappropriate footware/kit/food/preparation be a bad thing?

(who's ever needed rescuing from the new forest)?

Errr <puts hand up gingerly>

It did involve bikes, lots of cider and stupidity. So yes, they probably should have charged me. 😳

Always an odd question, in all the years I was involved with MRT and working a search dog I never gave it a thought. Did think maybe a contribution from the government for the teams equipment, thinking back though I did spend a lot of time and money, not on rescues but on training. Twice a week, at least, every week for 12 years. So any body fancy coughing up mail me and they can make a donation. 🙂

Is there a pair of Terradactyls on the wall in his honour?

Not in the place I'm talking about, however I think there is a set in Blackrock Cottage.

I always feel a mixture of emotions when staying at the McIntyre hut, so many pictures of Alex MacIntyre around, looking immensely fun and happy in all of them.

think my concern is that people at the push of a button expect someone to give up their time to rescue them - I know people in MRT enjoy it and get a sense of satisfaction from it and traditionally it was people in the hills helping each other and helping genuine emergencies - but going out when you should be putting the kids in the bath - getting back late and being tired at work the next day just because someone can't be bothered to take a map or gets scared seems to me an abuse of a volunteer system

my Hamish McInnes story - long time back some friends decided to late in the day to do the very long gully climb in Glencoe - as it got dark we walked up the side to see if on way down and called out a bit - got a response "we want rescuing" - I pointed out it was getting dark and we didn't know the layout of the gully from the side and how to get to them so would have to call the mountain rescue, better off sitting it out - "no call the rescue"
Back down and we ring 999 and policeman arrive to assess situation policeman rings Hamish - grunts a bit and gives phone to me - we have a chat and agree they've just been stupid and won't die let them climb out in the morning - I tell the policeman what we've agreed -he grabs phone off me and says something like "I can't go off shift now you'll have to sort it"

That apart, in what way would making people more cautious of the consequences of say, going up Snowden with inappropriate footware/kit/food/preparation be a bad thing?

Of course that would be a good thing, but my thought is that you need to be cautious of unintended consequences. Free access to the hills is a definite public good in the UK, and while I'm sure there are examples of pillockry out there, I'm also pretty sure that would continue under a forced insurance scheme.

And I'm certain that moving MR from a voluntary to a paid service would fundamentally alter how it is viewed by the public and, as importantly, how members view their roles.

I do think a bill for £43,000 or such like does focus the mind quite nicely onto what actually consitutes an emergency. Obviously that can work both ways, however, generally the prospect of ones own imminent death does have a way of making cash seem less relevant and therefore helping with making the choices.

very long gully climb in Glencoe

Clachaig Gully? If so, I can imagine that was a lovely, wet night 🙂

It's a staggeringly bad idea to expect people to have insurance to enjoy the countryside. The increase in call-outs is a function of accessibility and lack of education. There is no doubt that the MR teams are underfunded for the amount of work they do and people these days expect to get rescued at the slight inclination of a sprained ankle on the tourist path of Snowdon. EDUCATION EDUCATION EDUCATION. the sooner people realise it is not a taxi service because they've gone over on their ankle and can't be assed anymore, the better.

peterfile - Member

Clachaig Gully? If so, I can imagine that was a lovely, wet night

What happens if someone goes out somewhere, hurts themselves, calls for help and says "oh heavens no, I haven't got insurance. didn't think I'd need it"?

Do the fire brigade and paramedics have to go up to rescue them instead?

At what point coming down the mountain does responsibility change from the (££££££) MRT to the (free) 'normal' emergency services?

Or do we leave them to die?

dan1980 - Member
By all means we should exempt MRT from VAT, that would be a good thing.
If people could "sign" this petition, that'd be fantastic.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/44778
/p>

POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # REPORT-POST

Done.

The increase in call-outs is...

Wrong premise. The number of UK mountain incidents recorded by MRTs has been stable since 2009.

There was a significant increase from the mid-2000's up to then, but that trend hasn't continued.

How does it work in France exactly? I think most rescuers are still volunteers (local mountain guides) as they are the ones with the skills and knowledge required. But if a helicopter ride is required, then the rescued person is charged for that.

Not the photo I was looking for...

http://crankitupgear.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/happy-birthday-hamish-macinnes.html

...but love the white flat cap (had forgotten that) and oh look, no helmet!!!!

Or do we leave them to die?

Like I said before, It has been the case since the 70's if you take ride in an ambulance for something that is deemed to be self inflicted. I haven't noticed the roadside populated with mashed up motorcyclists, cyclists etc etc in their death throes.

EDUCATION EDUCATION EDUCATION. the sooner people realise it is not a taxi service because they've gone over on their ankle and can't be assed anymore, the better

I think thats the point of rendering an invoice.....

Some of the incidents which occur in the Alps suggest that, far from inhibiting call outs, a paid for service funded via insurance may actually increase their frequency, because people take the attitude that "I've paid for it, I might as well use it". There was a case recently where someone was prosecuted for it because a hut guardian overheard them planning it the previous evening. That's not the first time I've heard of people displaying that attitude.

There seems to be very little appetite for a paid for service amongst the MRT themselves, nor from bodies such as the MCofS BMC etc, so I doubt there'll be any pressure to implement it from the government anytime soon.

Ambulance trips for motorcyclists and other "self inflicted" problems

So all motorcycle accidents are self-inflicted then?

Like I said before, It has been the case since the 70's if you take ride in an ambulance for something that is deemed to be self inflicted.

Errr....no it's not.

The healthcare costs of [i]some[/i] RTCs are charged back from the insurers by the hospital. But if you have no insurance and you deliberately chop your hand off you get treated for free.

And how many cyclists have been billed for an emergency ambulance?! I've never, ever heard of that happening (in the UK).

I've had bills for emergency ambulances and mountain rescue in France though not for myself. They weren't excessive and I paid up. In ski resorts there's usually a price list depending on whether you are on or off-piste. Even helicopter bills seem reasonable. If you took a pleasure flight in a helicopter you'd expect the bill to have few zeros on the bottom line.

Insure or self insure, it's up to you.

So all motorcycle accidents are self-inflicted then?

So who said that then?

Errr....no it's not.

Err yes it is, its an arbritary decision as to whether you pay or not. I've both been charged and not charged and for both an RTC on a bike and on a motor bike. Frankly I couldn't work out the logic behind it, but they did it.

peterfile - Member

Imagine working with the great Hamish MacInnes.

I sit at the next table to the legend often on a Sunday morning. A group of locals (including a friend of mine) meet regularly for breakfast, we tend to join later and listen to the subdued conversations. True gentleman

And much nicer now that creepy bastard from up the road isn't there desperate to be centre of attention all the time 🙂

PS Hope you've tried the chocolate cake there, it's rather good.

If you don't have insurance and get rescued in the Alps, they normally just let you off (I have friends who were rescued as students sans insurance and they just got a slapped wrist).