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When I bought my first bike (a CG125 as it happens), training consisted of the guy at the shop showing me all the buttons, kick-starting it, then walking back into the shop to leave me to find my way home.
Btw our lass did cbt for 100 including bike hire then had two confidence lesson at an hour a piece for 25 quid each and felt much better for it
Yup, first time i rode a motorbike was just after I bought one. It was only kh100, but still a steep learning curve
druidh - Member
When I bought my first bike (a CG125 as it happens), training consisted of the guy at the shop showing me all the buttons, kick-starting it, then walking back into the shop to leave me to find my way home.
Same for my mum with her first Mini in the 50s...
GET MORE TRAINING THAN JUST A CBT BEFORE YOU HIT THE ROADS - OR YOU WILL HIT THE ROADS - FACE FIRST
What crap. I didn't even do a CBT, nor did anyone from my generation, so you certainly didn't either. None of us died.*
* Well, none of my friends died.
Get an eighties single cylinder, like say an Yamaha SRX 250, 400 or 600cc
Bow to such wisdom....
5th - personally I broke a collar bone and mashed an ankle - and the roads are rather busier than they were back then. The stats for new riders dying back then made nasty reading hence the CBT and I believe more than CBT training even if just a couple of hours makes a deal of sense
The CBT training is worthwhile but the difference is that Al already has road sense through cycling and driving a car + the older you get, the less immortal you feel.
Crucially, given the bikes he's looking at, he's not a Rossi wannabee and is definitely not out to impress the laydeez 😉
here you go
try this
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/YAMAHA-SRX-400-/140569610649?pt=UK_Motorcycles&hash=item20ba9a0999
The CBT training is worthwhile but the difference is that Al already has road sense through cycling and driving a car + the older you get, the less immortal you feel.
^ This.
A 16 year old on a FS1E doesn't compare to an, err, mature gentleman who has driven cars and bicycles longer than a 16 year old has been alive. That's worth more than any amount of training.
Oddly, I can't think of anyone I knew get more than a grazed knee. There were a lot of idiotic near death experiences though.
Don't buy the SRX in the link, it's the pansy one, with electric starter, rugged and ragged men like you use the kick start one 😀
I had a KLR600 kick back once, it actual ripped a MX boot sole to ankle. A KTM495 kicked back and nearly sent me over the handle bars. I thought it broke my foot (for days). The same bike also coughed, spluttered and set of backwards... the joy of old 2-strokes.
TandemJeremy - Member
5th - personally I broke a collar bone and mashed an ankle - and the roads are rather busier than they were back then. The stats for new riders dying back then made nasty reading hence the CBT and I believe more than CBT training even if just a couple of hours makes a deal of sense
Ah, so you meant...
😛GET MORE TRAINING THAN JUST A CBT BEFORE YOU HIT THE ROADS - [s]OR YOU WILL[/s] [u]COS I[/u] HIT THE ROADS - FACE FIRST
Get a vespa. Stick a 200cc kit on it 🙂
No Al - I meant I think you would be stupid to ride a motorcycle on the roads without getting some professional training - a CBT is not enough.
Still - it was clear from the first you were not interested in any advice that didn't agree with your preconceptions.
Still - I only have hundreds of thousands of miles over decades on motorcycles - what do I know.
No doubt you know lots TJ, the difficulty is in separating that from the stuff you just make up
Still - I only have hundreds of thousands of miles over decades on motorcycles - what do I know.
But... even as a spotty yoof with no experience you failed to kill yourself.
Actually, as much as I hate training of any type, learning is better than training, but...
...a day at the Yamaha MX School is a good way to have some fun and actually learn something. A car driver trundling around on the road being 'trained' to ride a motorbike on the road will learn nothing they don't already know and they certainly won't be controlling slides by the end of the day (unlike an MX day).
TJ, get over it. I've heeded plenty of advice on this thread.
Of course you have lots of experience, but is yours the only voice I should listen to?
Particularly in the light of the numerous points we disagree on? And the numerous other people on here who disagree with you?
GET MORE TRAINING THAN JUST A CBT BEFORE YOU HIT THE ROADS - OR YOU WILL HIT THE ROADS - FACE FIRST
Only if you're not wearing a helmet
If you listen to the advice from people who actually ride bikes you will enjoy it more and you will be safer.
But no - you will discard any advice you don't agree with. Most of the experienced motorcyclists here are singing from a similar song book.
🙄 get over it.
We didn't have training in my day - just rolled up for the test after surviving self teaching.
Absolutely the best training I did for riding a motorbike on the road was thrashing one around a muddy field. Learned (without realising it) how to handle diverse things like front end slides, how to hold a rear wheel slide, recover from locked wheels, control after hitting something etc. In other words, just went loony on a soft surface.
IMO if you already ride a bike on the road you already have the important skill, that of avoiding the swine out to kill you. 🙂 And if you have driven a car, you understand little things like clutch, gears, and throttle - all you need is to adapt existing skills.
Muddy field highly recommended.
Motorbikes do bite though. I lost 3 friends on successive weekends, and have several who crippled themselves by too much hero stuff.
Ta epi....I'm still curious as to whether bigger bikes are safer solely due to the better brakes or is there another reason?
Learned (without realising it) how to handle diverse things like front end slides, how to hold a rear wheel slide, recover from locked wheels, control after hitting something etc
none of which is as important as planning your views, avoiding nutters and anticipation.
I wouldnt have liked to ride after just having done a CBT, I mean the other bloke doing it when I did it went trough a red light and still passed.
still curious as to whether bigger bikes are safer solely due to the better brakes or is there another reason?
on a little motorbike everyone will want to race you away from the lights, then cut you up when the road narrows, on a bigger bike they still want to race but cannot get close enough from 0-30 or 40 so its not a problem, on smaller bikes you will be ragging it to make 60mph and will have nothing in reserve if you need it, if your not doing 60mph people will be barging past.
Ah OK ta.
anagallis_arvensis - Member
none of which is as important as planning your views, avoiding nutters and anticipation.
An experienced cyclist already has those skills, or he's pushing a wheelchair. The most important skills after that are the bike control skills. Best learned offroad IMO.
cynic-al - Member
...I'm still curious as to whether bigger bikes are safer solely due to the better brakes or is there another reason?
Brakes and suspension.
The ratio of sprung to unsprung weight is one of the critical factors in making suspension work properly.
A small bike does not have much weight, so getting the unsprung weight to an optimum amount is difficult. It can be achieved by a bigger spend on the unsprung components or by having a highly sophisticated damping system. That is unlikely to happen on commuter style bikes.
A fat lardy rider can improve this ratio. In fact some bikes have suspension so woeful that the riders have to pack on great big beerguts to make the suspension work - check out any Harley-Davidson rally. 😆
It is easier to get a decent ratio on a bigger bike because the suspension can still be reasonably basic, but because there is a better sprung/unsprung ratio, it will work ok.
My opinion is probably out of date, but I used to reckon on about 320lbs as about right for a single cylinder bike.
The best suspension in small bikes is usually found on trail bikes.
Actually apart from race replicas, that is probably across the board.
For example, I had one of the first Ducati Monsters in Oz (right after Barry Sheene who got the very first 🙂 ) and while it was a great bike, I was much faster on tight rough winding roads on my Suzuki DR650SE trail bike because it could cope with the frequent potholes and corrugations on corners much better.
Mass too... helps with wind buffeting and stability in general.
An experienced cyclist already has those skills, or he's pushing a wheelchair.
not true, the use of the road is completely different on a motorbike
not true, the use of the road is completely different on a motorbike
Slightly different.* Not completely.
The main difference is attitude. Things like "it's my right of way" and "they're supposed to look" don't apply to motorcyclists. Don't apply to cyclist either but it's amazing how many people insist on trusting other people with their lives.
*EDIT: assuming he's a car driver too!
anagallis_arvensis - Member
'An experienced cyclist already has those skills, or he's pushing a wheelchair.'
not true, the use of the road is completely different on a motorbike
Of course it is different, however it's a translatable skill, but if you haven't learned to keep/regain control of your motorbike in extremis you're at higher risk.
anagallis_arvensis - Member"An experienced cyclist already has those skills, or he's pushing a wheelchair."
not true, the use of the road is completely different on a motorbike
I'm in the "very different" camp. road position is different to both cars an cycles, cornering lines are different. Braking technique is different. There is even a deal of dispute that the road positioning taught for CBT is not what you should be adopting after CBT.
A couple of hours over and above CBT would be well worth doing IMO - apart from anything else it would improve enjoyment
TandemJeremy - Member
...A couple of hours over and above CBT would be well worth doing IMO - apart from anything else it would improve enjoyment
A couple of hours? - don't be stingy 🙂
A whole day in a muddy field will teach you things you'll take years to learn (painfully) on the road.
A lot to be said for muddy fields. 🙂
Trouble is you immediately realise how tedious road bikes are and the next thing you know you're racing enduro and/or MX. 😉
Well i do disagree with TJ most of the time, but not when it comes to riding motorcycle, you may not like him al, but I would take his advice very seriously, riding a bike is not cycling.
Cornering is different, road position is different, speed is differnet and so on and so on.
if you haven't learned to keep/regain control of your motorbike in extremis you're at higher risk.
your much better off learning to avoid those situations as much as possible first IMO
I don't dislike TJ and I am not ignoring all his advice - but he's not the only person I am listening to on here, and I want to learn stuff myself rather than be told what to do by experts.
Making (minor) mistakes - like buying a 125 then perhaps thinking it's not fast enough and selling it - is how one learns, no?
I stayed clear of motorbikes (I don't drive cars) until my early 30's.
I bought a 125 in the summer and moved to Wales with it in the autumn.
My little CG125 did 12000 miles from June until the following easter when I got a full licence.I was doing stupid trips from Swansea to MK and back each weekend(400 odd miles)
It was a horrible winter and a horrible journey on that little bike but I glad I put the miles in on a little bike and took the little spills at lower speeds.A bigger bike straight off and I don't think I would have made it as far as the bridge.
Now go book your CBT and have some fun 😀
Whatever you choose enjoy the freedom and huge smile it will bring!
My little CG125 did 12000 miles from June until the following easter when I got a full licence.I was doing stupid trips from Swansea to MK and back each weekend(400 odd miles)
I did the same kind of stuff, admittedly I was 17, but it was great.
An even more barking journey on a small bike... [url= http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=460631 ]Sydney to London on a step-through[/url]
When I did it the other guy pulled a wheelie away from a corner, not realising the examiner had gone to a different position.......he still passed! Things have changed since I were a lad 😉I wouldnt have liked to ride after just having done a CBT, I mean the other bloke doing it when I did it went trough a red light and still passed.
BTW - you're never to old to learn and I'm going to have a day with some mates [url= http://www.i2imca.com/ ]HERE[/url] - just can't decide whether to do the on or offroad.
CBT is only training, not a test. I'm pretty sure, you cant really "fail" it.
My 2 pennies. You'll get bored of a 125 pretty quick. But then doing the full test is rather expensive (circa £500). So probably best, seeing as you only want to use it for nipping into town, would be to go for the restricted 33bhp for 2years test which works out a lot cheaper than DAS.
Further lessons, h'mm, with enough road experience from bike/car and maturity then I don't reckon you need it.
Honda XR250,great bikes. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HONDA-XR250-99-green-laner-scrambler-off-road-VIDEO-/150625593869?pt=UK_Motorcycles&hash=item2311fc2a0d#ht_1647wt_1141
So probably best, seeing as you only want to use it for nipping into town, would be to go for the restricted 33bhp for 2years test which works out a lot cheaper than DAS.
Is it all that much more expensive? One of the training places here in Edinburgh quotes a 4-day DAS course as £685 and their 4-day A2 course as £650.
Cheers all.
I am thinking of doing the CBT and using that to see what the 125s are like with a view to getting one - I feel like I want to start off small, if I want a bigger bike I shouldn't lose much money.
As I've said it's in town/quiet B-roads etc so I don't think I'll want/need huge power.
What should one budget for helmet/leathers etc? (happy to go SH, poss. even for a helmet)
Kit is remarkably cheap these days.
Have a look at [url= http://sharp.direct.gov.uk/ ]Sharp[/url] for helmet safety scores - you can get very good helmets for under £100.
Textile jacket/jeans can be had very reasonably.
Wouldn't bother getting a 2nd hand helmet if I was you. It may look ok on the outside but if it's been dropped the inner shell may be damaged. You might as well put an watermelon on your Bonce. Still, on your head be it. 😀
[url= http://www.jsaccessories.co.uk/ ]J&S in Hamilton[/url] are a good option for cheap kit.
As I've said it's in town/quiet B-roads etc so I don't think I'll want/need huge power.
125's are fine in town - they're quick enough to keep up (or beat) traffic up to 40mph or so, it's only really once you get into 60mph limits that they can be frustrating. Quiet B-roads are one of the best places for going fast on a motorbike though, so while you might not need 100bhp+ something a bit quicker than a 125 is a lot more enjoyable.
This sort of things looks reasonable?
OK not vintage, but cheap, safe and reliable?
Old, neglected, crashed, non believable mileage, wouldn't touch it. Can of worms. Likely to need hundreds spent and many many hours to bring it to acceptable condition
What should I be looking to spend on something decent of that ilk?
Most bikes similar of that ilk will be in similar condition. Since the advent of direct access few people have bought 125s new. So what bikes there are have a very hard life with generation after generation of learners with no money or maintenance skills. Even the cg 125 has been made in Brazil not Japan IIRC for a good few years now so is of lower quality
Finding an unshagged old 125 will be very hard. They just are not out there on the market
🙁
I guess authentic low mileage and youth are the main things then...
have a browse around autotrader
Jebus!
How crap would a 50cc be?
EDIT...restricted to 30mph, I can pedal faster!
Al your original post details what sort of thing you fancied but did not really say why you wanted it.
I would stop worrying about the fast bike will kill you thing. The biggest threat you have on a bike is at junctions with cars pulling out on you. These don't go away on a 50cc bike.
Why not do your DAS on a 500cc bike so your choice is totally open. You will get a good idea if the whole idea is for you or not.
Incidentally I got a new bike the other week a Triumph Street Triple its a 675cc naked (no faring) bike with around a 100BHP. It will out accelerate most supercars to 100mph, but its so easy to ride and so forgiving of mistakes. It looks cool and because there is no fairing it keeps my straight line speed down. It really is such an easy and stable bike to ride.
I would not feel safer on any of the smaller bikes mentioned in this thread. I have the brakes grip and power(if needed) to get myself out of trouble much easier and its upto me if I want to use the power to get into more trouble but I can choose not too.
TJ similar comments re. this?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270774229091&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Would going to a dealer be best?
bazzer - I'm looking to dip a toe in the water TBH, I can probably afford a starter 125 etc this autumn, I don't want to be blowing £££ on a big big & testing etc straight away. Looks like I can do the CBT & get kitted-up for £500 + bike + ins....DAS would be way more...and I could save my way up to that if I wanted to.
I like classics (but not if they are cost/maintenance headaches), I like the idea of slow - it's unlikely to be used for days out or "fun" riding - just short trips in town & locally.
I actually owned and H100 (not the S). That one looks like a much tidier bike than the earlier one you linked to. good wee bike as well.
a dealer would be best - but the same applies - non knackered small bikes are rare thus expensive
I still think you are heading in the wrong direction / answering the wrong question.
Cool that makes a lot of sense.
If your on a budget for the bike then anything remotely sexy is pretty much out as sex costs 🙂
The amount of fun you can have on a 125 will depend on which one you get. All have crap power but some have nice handling and are fun to ride (if not a little frustrating)
One of the changes in the second hand bike market is that smaller lower power bikes now have a market again as people who didn't do DAS or are not 21 or over are limited to 33BHP so bikes that typically fell in between a proper big bike and a learner bike now have a market again.
If you want to run something older and interesting though its going to cost you in the wallet or in time spannering yourself.
So it might just be worth getting something not so cool to start with enjoy it build up some no claims and then if you enjoy it move up.
Just try not to be put off, the difference between a crap bike and a good one is huge.
TandemJeremy - Member
I still think you are heading in the wrong direction / answering the wrong question.
I know....but I've said I don't want to outlay much to start with, and I also want to learn myself, rather than jump on a 500 cos I've been told to.
Ta bazzer - you get me! for 33bhp bikes I need CBT, then theory and practical test on a 125 yes? Would a >125 but <250 be cheaper/better value due to the market?
How best to identify a "good"/"good handling" bike? I don't want to be spending lots of time looking.
[img] 
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Perfect.
And when you get fed up with it [i]next week[/i]:
[img] 
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Can't find a conveyance made entirely out of snot though ...
On just a CBT (assuming you are at least 17 :D) you can ride a 14.6BHP 125
If you take your Theory, and practical tests as well on a 125cc you can then ride any cc bike as long as it has no more than 33BHP
So if you went that route I would have thought some >125 with a lot less than 33BHP would be cheaper. Not sure what falls into this category as its not something I have looked at.
Best thing is go to a bike dealer look at all the really shiny cool bikes with bling bits on them realise you need to have one do DAS and sell a kidney and buy a new Ducati 1198 🙂
Wait until you can afford to do it properly. Doing it on the cheap and buying a cheap old small motorcycle will be no fun and a total waste of your time and money
Buying in the Autumn is a bit daft as well - you will not use it over the winter
TJ - Cheaper in autumn..it's not going to get used a lot any time of year, but there are good days Autumn - Spring are there not?
And I think you are transplanting your "fun" for what I have said I am after.
Gawd this is pointless.
No - I am giving you the benefit of decades of experience. You don't want to listen. I'll leave you to it.
Oh well. bazzer understands.
Please stop TJ.
Please?
I quite often agree with you but your point is well and truly proven.You have ridden motorbikes since they were horse drawn we get it.
While I have some sympathy for TJ's point of view and also think bigger bikes are safer/more fun that didn't stop me from enjoying the 2 or 3 years I had riding 125's (and even a year on a 50cc bike when I was 16) when I was a teenager.
There was even a period when I had big bikes that my wife just had a little Suzuki GN125. Yes it was slow but it didn't stop me using it to commute on sometimes and still having fun with it. It was a different sort of fun to my own bikes, but because it was small and light you could take all sorts of liberties with it - jumping off speed bumps, pegs down on every corner, stoppies etc. I used to ride it in town and also the 10-mile each way commute to Livingston (mostly on 50/60 limits) and it was fine for that.
TJ - please read the above...it helps explain where I am coming from.
My Vintage Small Motorbike (not actually mine but the same model)
100mph, 75mpg, cheap insurance and not too heavy.
[img] 
[/img]
**** it
I do understand what you want. Its impossible to get. its pointless trying to talk to you as you do not listen.
Killfile back on
How is this not what I am wanting?
epicsteve - Member
my wife just had a little [u]Suzuki GN125. Yes it was slow but it didn't stop me using it to commute on sometimes and still having fun with it. It was a different sort of fun to my own bikes, but because it was small and light[/u] you could take all sorts of liberties with it - jumping off speed bumps, pegs down on every corner, stoppies etc. [u]I used to ride it in town and also the 10-mile each way commute to Livingston (mostly on 50/60 limits) and it was fine for that. [/u]
[img] 
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or...
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one last attempt
Al -because the money you want to spend will only buy a clapped out knackered 125 which is horrid to ride.
Epicsteve is an experienced and skilled rider so can ride around the flaws of a knackered 125 and have fun. You are not. You don't want to do any real training.
Look at he secondhand market for 125s - the prices are badly inflated for learner bikes as there is a shortage of them - both 125s and 33bhp bikes
BTW - IIRC the 100 you posted cannot be used to do a test on. too small.
Epicsteve is an experienced and skilled rider so can ride around the flaws of a knackered 125 and have fun.
My wife might have taken exception to her little GN being described as knackered as it was newish and absolutely immaculate (no way would I let her ride round on a bike that wasn't 100% perfect)!
Sorry steve - did not mean to give that impression! Al wants to spend a few hundred quid on a 125 - that will be knackered 🙂
So TJ you are saying say £750 will only buy a knackered 125?
[i]So TJ you are saying say £750 will only buy a knackered 125? [/i]
Based on my mate getting nearly a £1000 for his shagged, neglected, unridden (+5 years), no MOT'd, rustbucket 600 - probably yes.
Epicsteve is an experienced and skilled rider so can ride around the flaws of a knackered 125 and have fun. You are not. You don't want to do any real training.
Your definition of fun may differ from others.
I doubt I'd enjoy riding a crappy 125 now. But I did when I was riding my first 125 and didn't know I wasn't supposed to be having fun.