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On Saturday I took my car to a Halfords Autocentre (just don't say anything, ok) for an MOT, which it failed.
The lower track control arm ball joint cover was split and I was told I would need a new complete track control arm. I asked if there were any alternatives and was told there weren't.
I needed the car back as soon as possible so I told them to proceed but I have subsequently found out that both boots and ball joints are available for significantly less money. I certainly feel like I've been ripped off. Do I have any recourse?
Sounds like they should have replaced the ball joint?
How much did the repair cost?
£317 inc VAT
sounds like the lower balljoint. Sometimes they are riveted onto the arm itself, especially on a pattern part if it has already been done in the past but some OEM stuff is riveted too.
eg
arm by itself with bushes: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Peugeot-306-2-0-ST-Febi-Front-Axle-Lower-Right-Track-Control-Arm-Wishbone-/361586826928
Replacement bushes: https://www.simplycarparts.co.uk/products/48619
Lower ball joint by itself: https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/352268240629?chn=ps
Most of the time it is cheaper to replace the whole arm rather than change the bushes when pricing up none-oem parts. My preference is to price up genuine/OEM or known high quality arms with bushes or the bushes themselves and then decide. I refuse to fit any cheap pattern parts as they simply do not last. My labour is "free" but these days I don't have much free time unlike when I was a student and chose parts mainly on price.
and I would certainly only change the ball joint itself and use a genuine or OEM part.
They didn't offer that as an option.
Having said that, GFS don't seem to offer it as a part for my car but I've found them elsewhere. They only offer the complete arm.
It's an F11 BMW 5 series, if that makes any difference.
just had a quick look and the lower one looks like an all in one unit.
The upper arm has a separate ball joint.
just saw your link - does indeed look changeable then and not pressed in.
But I wouldnt buy a £16 ball joint.
edit: are you sure that posting is not for one of the rear (front) ones as the front control arm on the rear looks to have a screw in balljoint.
this is one you are not replacing by itself: https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-393262-bmw-lemfoerder-wishbone-l/
My car has non-replaceable lower arm ball joints, you can get the ball joint alone but no chain garage would fit it, requires a fair amount of labour and I imagine exposure to risk/warranty issues.
link here shows all the front suspension parts
From the top down you have the lower front arm. Then the lower rear arm with a mount for the strut. Then you have the wishbone shaped upper arms with the separate 3 bolt ball joints, then the ARB drop links (long and slender) and then the track rods.
Here is an example of the upper wishbone without a removable ball joint: https://www.scbvehicledismantlers.co.uk/parts-breaking/details/BMW-5-Series-2013-To-2016-Suspension-Arm-Front-Upper-Wishbone-RH/-/370/
It could possibly be the case that all the replacable ball joints you are seeing are for none-genuine, ie pattern part, control arms.
just to be clear when I say replaceable I mean easily - ie designed to be easily removed. eg the peugeot one above with 3 torx bolts or the cheap BMW one in the group.
It may be possible to change the other type but not without special tools or some more involved labour than you want to be paying for.
Allowing bits to bolt in/bolt out increases manufacturing cost and can also lead to poor alignment hence why the genuine ones are designed to be swapped out. You also then get a nice new arm in case it has been damaged slightly to an extent that would not be easily noticeable and a whole mass produced part is cheaper than labour to strip and rebuild one.
With cars an expensive part often comes with cheap labour that fixes other components too or a cheap part with loads of labour with other bits still left to fail.
Get a pre inspection at a local independant and walk round with them when car is on the ramp. Youll get familiar with its condition and can then get parts in advance of failure.
Was the £300 the full bill including the MOT/labour or just for that one part?
The £317 was for the part, labour and VAT.
Doesn't sound horrendous to me. Have you ring around for other quotes?
Average labour charge in the UK is £85 an hour so it depends on how long it took to fit really.
I'd bo crawling around underneath to check the whole arm is new
I’ve already checked and it is.
IF GFS don't offer a separate part it's unlikely that Halfords will use a Motor Factor that does.
You needed a part quickly, not waiting for some Ebay 'shop' to finish their Christmas dinner and go out in the garage and box up a ball joint and head to the post office so a slight premium was to be expected?
Also, for what's a £120 part on a big heavy car it's probably worth getting a complete unit fitted with (I assume) new rubbers etc where it attaches to the car.
My advice would be, don't buy car parts from ebay or use it as a cost comparison.
Would you have been asking this question if it was a local garage rather than Halfords?
Not all the big chains are bad. I’ve got a Kwik Fit near me whose staff are brilliant, they’ve done stuff for free or very cheap and their servicing/MOT stuff is well priced and very thorough.
Yes. I said who it was at the start as it was an answer to a question that would have been asked at some point.
That is a reasonable cost for what you have had done. Its a 5 series, parts cost more. If you want a laugh ring up BMW for a quote.
I used to buy ebay ball joints for my Range Rover - I went through a lot of them!! They were universally sh*te. But I did get very good at changing ball joints and have an impressive collection of heavy duty splitters - funnily enough not something I’ve had to do since selling the Rangie!😂
[i]Have I been Ripped Off?[/i]
No.
You've had Halfords get your car through an MOT. Sounds like you got off quite lightly.
£317 all in to be fair sounds about the ballpark. You could get it slightly less but you would be leaving it with a hack cowboy. People don't seem to understand that when you go up the brand prestige in cars , parts and labour also go up. Had BMW carried out the work you would have probably been looking at £800.
I'm not disputing the cost of what I had done but I am questioning the necessity of it if a cheaper alternative was available.
I am well aware that premium products attract premium prices, but I wouldn't take a Ford or Renault to a main dealer and expect low prices either.
Find a local independent garage and form a relationship with them, don't use national chains. They've lots of overheads to cover in their profits, and probably incentives to staff for upselling work. The parts may not be genuine and will be charged at full £ for the quality.
Do a bit of homework. I have two motors of the same brand and via the internet discovered a official dealer who will mail order genuine parts at a discount to club members. The club was free to join and I take no part in it. Means to an end. I either fit the parts myself or take them to a local mechanic who is happy to charge an hourly rate.
The time for asking was before they did the work surely. Take it as a lesson and next time take 10 minutes to pop outside and make a coupke of phone calls before telling them to fix it.
I did ask...
I asked if there were any alternatives and was told there weren’t.
I also did some googling before I agreed to the work but GSF only list the complete arm.
Just because it's available on eBay doesn't mean it's replaceable
If none of the reputable retails are selling it individual then chances are it's not designed to be replaced.
That doesn't stop cowboys selling them and doing it.
I have a van with riveted in lower ball joints.....
The arms 250 quid.
The service manual states these are non replCable and are not designed to be removed .
Without fail there are people reporting they have replaced them using eBay specials pressed in with a 50t press and lots of heat.
Now as one of the main contact points holding your front wheel in place do you really trust something is supposed to a one time fit that been heated up to expand it and forced out and in potentially causing damage /stretching /deformation on the way in.
Equally I'm.not surprised a garage wouldn't take on a job like that if it's not designed to be replaced .......insurance minefield if it let's go.
The other thing is comparing online prices is not the same as a garage buying one same day delivered from a local parts stockist or BMW themselves.
I normally stick to Lemforder (for suspension) but always check the dealer genuine price too. Online discount places sell the BMW lower arms for £60-100 but they are the big German online places that will take a week to get it out to you. I buy all my servicing parts in "bulk" - ie 3 or 4 sets of filters to last me a couple of years and buy oil for the landy from ECP when on offer and for the Merc direct from a dealer up north (20L for £55 shipped).
If I can I change stuff when I notice they are getting tired but for things that go and need doing asap for safety/MOT then you have no choice but to go local.
How much was the arm on your reciept?
The arm was £217, give or take a few pence.
In that case the labour is about right.
The arm is expensive but sounds like direct from a dealer or just looked at GSF and crikey they are expensive but I guess it's the same as ECP in that they have a perpetual sale so price up the parts so they look like a bargain when you get the discount added on.
For £217 I'd want genuine or Lemforder. No own brand crap.
just applied the "discount" to the GSF one and it's £85 for the front one. £217 does seem about £100 over priced...but as I said if they got it direct from a dealer then probably about right.
Expensive car in expensive to run shocker...
"For £217 I’d want genuine or Lemforder. No own brand crap."
Or any of the other perfectly good brands out there - but then this is why garages are garages and should be fitting what they are happy to honour warrenty on as the general public generally hasn't a clue on what's good and what's bad -eg someone was on here saying they would never fit a dayco timing belt as they had never heard of them.
Unfortunately people pigeon hole brands with good and bad with no real reasoning largely.
Likewise some of the highly thought off brands such as lemforder have been packing stuff up for ecp that is not their good stuff to allow them to be competitively priced ...... Bit like when you go to curries and buy the telly that's one digit different in the model code so it looks like your getting the same telly then you find its not the same spec.
With the exception of eichler asking me to fit eichler components is likely to end with offence being caused.
Find a local independent garage and form a relationship with them, don’t use national chains.
This basically. A good, trustworthy local - or an independent one-make specialist - who are happy to explain and discuss stuff without patronising you is worth its weight in crankshafts. I've been using the same family-run garage since the early 90s - I kind of inherited them through my then gf - and trust them not mess me about and not to patronise me.
They're happy to fit parts I've sourced, mostly upgraded ones, where it makes sense or simply order in VW or OEM quality stuff for me. I don't have anything against Halfords, but big chains just tend to be less flexible ime. My guys stored a complete engine for me for five years, a tuned one, without charge. You don't get that sort of service from big chains.
Packing up for ECP - ie what is known as "own brand crap". All I could see for the OPs part was Lemforder or cheap brands or unbranded stuff.
I want to see parts in either a genuine box or one from a reputable supplier - Lemforder, GKN, Hella etc and preferably the one who I know makes the part for the car manufacturer. Same with filters etc etc. Otherwise it's like ordering a tool at Toolstation and a Silverline box arriving on the counter in front of you.
With regards to warranty what will it be on a suspension part changed by a garage? 1 year? A pattern part will last that long but then what happens in 18 months to 3 years when it goes again compared to 10 years for the original part fitted by the manufacturer?
I am agreeing with you.....
I'm just pointing out it's not as simple as you make out to the layman to argue that point to someone that is paid to talk authoritivly on the subject.
was just clarifying 🙂
I thought when I wrote it I should say "or another decent brand".
but my note at the end is a warning to anyone using the cheapest quote.
One reason for getting to know you local decent specialist is they will know where to get OEM parts cheaper and they will want you to come back as you feel like you have had service above and beyond what a modern dealer will provide but for a lot less. Odds are they will be more familiar with your car and how to fix common faults than the dealers too these days.
From my experience with BMWs and having looked at RealOEM for your car. What they did was okay.
You do replace the arm, not the joint when replacing worn or broken ball joints in BMWs. Generally, I’d replace both at the same time, but it’s not a requirement. The price of the part is expensive, IMO as I’d doubt that it’s a genuine BMW item and will have come from the local auto parts place.
Ultimately, you paid slightly over the odds for the convenience of using the Halfords, but weren’t ripped off in what they did. Now, whether that part actually needed replaced when it went in is another matter.
whether that part actually needed replaced when it went in is another matter.
Last time I had a spilt ball joint cover with no play in the ball joint it was an advisory not a fail. I had it changed anyway because it was going to give up the ghost sooner or later. I know mot's have changed but did they give you a choice to not change it ?
"suspension joint dust cover:
severely deteriorated
Minor
missing or no longer prevents the ingress of dirt etc.
Major"
A split ball joint no longer prevents the ingress of dirt.
[i]My advice would be, don’t buy car parts from ebay or use it as a cost comparison.[/i]
I've been stung. I replaced the bent rear axle on our civic with one from a breakers, I did the sensible (and very hard) job of replacing the main bushes before putting the new axle on the car. I bought them from ebay for £60. Removed the old ones which had a plastic shell surrounding the bush, and installed the new ones with a metal shell around the bush.
At that point I realised they were not OE bushes but had no choice as needed the car back on the road and I'd already destroyed the old ones, ever since it has suffered from a invasive droning noise as all the axle noise is transmitted back into the car. 10 months later and I'm summoning up the courage to pull it all off again, but I might treat myself to a bearing press as I needed a 4 foot bar on my huge vice to get the bushes in last time, with the other end of the axle balanced on a stool and appropriately sized lumps of wood.
@taxi25 no. It was a firm fail.
An advisory wouldn't have resulted in this thread as I would have had time to do my own research while my car was still roadworthy.
So maybe check it (or get it checked) before putting through MOT?
Must say the MOT database is a good way of vetting which second hand cars haven't been maintained.
but I might treat myself to a bearing press as I needed a 4 foot bar on my huge vice to get the bushes in last time,
If you have the space you won't regret it.
I've always had access to one at work but decided I was doing enough to warrant my own
[i]So maybe check it (or get it checked) before putting through MOT?[/i]
I've never done this, friends that have usually tell me how good their garage is and that their car 'only' needs £400 of work each year to get it through its MOT. I then convince them to go to a 'Just MOTs' place at 30 days before the MOT expires, and they are stunned that it passes and even more surprised when the tester tells them that the advisory for low tread is not a Fail, and perfectly legal to drive away and get the tyre changed next week as got a few thousand left on it.
Its a free or cheap retest and you've still got nearly a months MOT, so why invite a garage to price up some new discs, pads and a battery each year rather than seeing what actually fails. I always get any servicing done AFTER the MOT, they can pick up anything that is not checked by the MOT but its harder to sting you for unnecessary work.
Tbh the mot guidelines are so lax anyway it's reasonably hard for anyone with ears and some rudimentary visual checks to be failing. It's mostly ignorance that leads to fails and continued ignorance that leads to big bills.
"Oh that's what the banging noise is"
Too many folk have the attitude that if it starts and moves it'll be fine till MOT......
Even my wife knows when the car develops an issue these days. I'm proud as she was a staunch turn the radio up ignore it person 🙂
Find a local independent garage and form a relationship with them, don’t use national chains. They’ve lots of overheads to cover in their profits
That's not how it works in the rest of the retail world - big chains have economies of scale and are cheaper. Compare Asda to your village shop.
As for finding a trusted independent - that's far easier to say than to do. I've never found an independent place that didn't let me down one way or another. The only place that's consistently left me feeling reassured and happy is Sinclair VW of Cardiff, the main dealer. They aren't that expensive for servicing and stuff like tracking and cam belts, and they are always prepared to send a techie out to give me advice even if it enables me to have a crack myself and sometimes fix it which is what happened with the cam position sensor. They have a book to follow which entails removing the cam belt - but I managed to do it without.
@spooky_b329 a fail is now instant. You no longer have the balance of MOT available.
Must say the MOT database is a good way of vetting which second hand cars haven’t been maintained.
I recently had my car MOTd, but had asked them to change a front wheel bearing first as it was very rumbly. They changed it, but only after MOTing (and failing it), so now it shows up as a fail for a bearing followed by a pass on the same day.
A friend said it's fairly common as it allows them to have a check for anything else that might fail before getting stuck into the planned job. If it passes despite the bearing then they don't need to re-MOT it. If it fails on, e.g., brake discs then they can give you a price and get on with replacing them at the same time as doing the bearing rather than doing the work in the morning, then finding it fails the MOT in the afternoon and having to rush to get the other bit of work done in time to re-MOT it before the end of the day.
Still, the MOT history now looks like I was driving around on a knackered bearing, completely unaware, until it was discovered during the MOT. When actually it had only just gone, and it was making a noise but wasn't rough or grinding when the wheel was turned by hand.
Not really bails.
Only an idiot would read that like that
How ever If it had failed on your bearing , brake pads and disks ****ed , 2 bald tires and no washer fluid that tells me the owner didn't give the slightest shit about the car.
But I do always check the history. Speaks volumes
But I do always check the history. Speaks volumes
Oh yes, I'm not saying it doesn't, and I look at it too, I think it's really useful.
You're right though, especially about the minor things, you could miss a recently split CV boot, especially if you park on the road so don't ever see the grease spot underneath it. But if a car is failing on blown bulbs, knackered tyres and no washer fluid then that's a real worry.
Amusingly, my car failed it's last MoT with two broken rear springs and both lower front ball joints shot, none of which was visible (springs had both broken in the exact same place and must have gone together, as the two halves had bound together and just lowered the ride height), or had any effect on the handling!