[Closed] MOT failure question

Is it listed on the refusal as a dangerous or a major problem?

As I understand it, if its major you can drive it so long as your current mot cert is valid, if its dangerous you can't.

But - and it's a really big but - I can't imagine your insurance covering you for driving any failure, in which case you're going to be driving uninsured.

2nd, no way on this earth should your employer be allowing you to drive that for business in either case, that would be a big H&S at work problem which is rather more trouble than either of the above.

IANA Traffic Officer

I believe the old one is still valid until its expiration date

It's not, your new one has taken over. Edit: ignore the second part

Are you employed or self employed? If the former, get work to hire a car.

If the springs are repaired you are legal to drive until the current MOT expires.

"Can you drive with a failed MOT?

Technically yes - but only if your existing MOT certificate is still in date and valid. This situation can only occur if you've had the car tested in the month leading up to the expiry date."

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/car-maintenance/everything-you-need-to-know-about-mots/

Your old MOT is only valid until you take a test regardless of if it is dated as expiring a week after you take it in for a test, and which it fails. I.e. you can't have 2 concurrent Mots, one a pass and one a fail.

So you can't repair and drive it until it has been remot'd as the current MOT is a fail.

What The Ginger One said.

You can drive a car thats failed for anything other than a dangerous fault to be fixed at another garage/home or to another pre-booked MOT. But you can't AIUI use it normally untill you have another valid MOT test.

If it's been put down as a dangerous fault then you can't legally move it at all except on a trailer.

[Edit] actually I may be wrong? https://www.gov.uk/getting-an-mot/after-the-test seems pretty clear, you can drive it up untill the old one expires.

I used to work at a garage occasionally and we could take them too/from the MOT center but was under the impression we could only drive them back if they (non dangerously failed) because we were a garage doing the repairs.

In which case crack on. Although driving it for work as noted above puts everyone involved (including you) in trouble with the H&S act.

I think you can drive until previous MOT expires. As long as it is roadworthy as in this case the spring fixed.

"Driving a vehicle that’s failed
You can take your vehicle away if:
your current MOT certificate is still valid
no ‘dangerous’ problems were listed in the MOT
Otherwise, you’ll need to get it repaired before you can drive.
If you can take your vehicle away, it must still meet the minimum standards of roadworthiness at all times." https://www.gov.uk/getting-an-mot/after-the-test
Happy to be proved wrong as it is useful to know. So any link saying a roadworthy car with a current MOT can not be driven.

IMO the new system records a fail. So drive and you might get an ANPR pull. But if your car is roadworthy and you have an in date MOT there is no offence.

You can take it away to repair it and then drive it back to be retested, but you can't take it away and drive around willy nilly.

You can take it away to repair it and then drive it back to be retested, but you can’t take it away and drive around willy nilly

Whilst common sense and general consensus (and me for what it's worth) would agree the government advice doesn't seem to.

As well as the above quoted bit, the section under retesting:

Taking your vehicle away for repairs

You can take your vehicle away if your MOT certificate is still valid.

If your MOT has run out you can take your vehicle to:

have the failed defects fixed
a pre-arranged MOT test appointment
In both cases, your vehicle still needs to meet the minimum standards of roadworthiness at all times or you can be fined.

So the "to be fixed" etc seems only to apply if your MOT has run out.

I'll be honest I wouldn't want to be the person to put government advice to the test on anything but the op might.

To reiterate my earlier point though, driving a vehicle which has failed an mot is likely the cause of many other legal issues even if its legal so far as the mot cert goes.

I wondering if the fact that the spring will have been fixed, but not checked and passed by a qualified MOT inspector has any bearing on the matter?

I'm pretty certain you won't trigger ANPR until the old one expires.

Imagine your MOT expires on 30th of the month. On 3rd of the month you take it for a test and it fails, you take it home and repair it on the 4th - you don't have to book a new test before driving it for the rest of the month.

But – and it’s a really big but – I can’t imagine your insurance covering you for driving any failure, in which case you’re going to be driving uninsured.

A common misconception - your insurance will not be invalidated for 3rd party claims (the bit you are legally required to have) for driving without an MOT. You could get in argument about damage to your own vehicle, but I think the ombudsman would probably say unless the broken spring contributed to the accident they have to pay.

However, I think the question is - should you knowingly drive with a broken spring. The MOT really has nothing to so with it. The spring being broken must have some effect on the handling/braking etc. If it wasn't a 'safety' issue to some extent it wouldn't be on the MOT checklist.

So it was a "major failure" not a "dangerous failure" so in theory OK to drive but the tester himself wasn't sure how the rules worked, and reckoned neither would the DVLA inspectors.

... but I managed to get both springs swopped and it retested and passed in under 2 hours and I now have a nice shiny certificate to stick in the file. Big up to Millhouses Park Garage in Sheff for getting it straight on the ramp rather than locking up and going home as they were about to!

get work to hire a car

I do like a good laugh...! Yes I'm sure that's the technically correct answer, but back in the real world...

It failed.

Not sure how it's changed with the new EU directives, but it certainly used to be worded that the certificate was valid so long as the vehicle was roadworthy. For example if it had failed, and the failed items since been fixed

Either way, in your case you'd knowingly be driving an unroadworthy vehicle, illegally.

Big up to Millhouses Park Garage in Sheff for getting it straight on the ramp rather than locking up and going home as they were about to!

Decent garage they are. Nice to see they're still a good outfit 🙂

I do like a good laugh…! Yes I’m sure that’s the technically correct answer, but back in the real world…

Chauffeur out of the question then 🙂

Why are you using your own car for work?

I'm fairly sure the rules changed in the past to allow you to drive a car that was a failure, but not a dangerous failure, until the cert expired.
On the practical side, the spring was broken and found to be so when checked. When it actually broke is anyone's guess. Bit like shrodingers (sp?) spring.

Why are you using your own car for work?

45p/mile.
Nice little earner.
Mine uses about 15p/mile in diesel, old enough not to depreciate much, insurance and tax are paid for and tyres are cheap.
If I do Selkirk to Northampton I'm £150 up for each trip. I'll always use mine where I can!

Why are you using your own car for work?

Why wouldn't you?

The spring being broken must have some effect on the handling/braking etc. If it wasn’t a ‘safety’ issue to some extent it wouldn’t be on the MOT checklist.

it definitely affects the handling and balance of the car (on my wifes ka a snapped spring meant the wheel was rubbing the arch liner), but also the end of the snapped spring can end up stabbing the tyre, which becomes rather dangerous pretty quickly

All that profit from the mileage allowance can pay for the hire car. 😀

I was actually asking the OP though..,

I’m fairly sure the rules changed in the past to allow you to drive a car that was a failure, but not a dangerous failure, until the cert expired

I checked and this appears to be correct, not sure if fixing it changes anything, broken springs are only a problem if they drop, they usually snap and just sit there and you only find out when you get an mot 6 months later.

Go fix em while you decide, is 4 days still ok to take it back for a partial test? they will presumably be only looking at the springs so only 5 mins then they update it online.

45p/mile.
Nice little earner.

My last 3 month stint of working away bought, mot'd, insured, taxed and put diesel in a new (to me) car for those 3 months, and made about £1000 tax free profit, just on the 45p's (and I still had 9 months of "free" motoring afterwards).

It's my little way of feeling better about big multinationals tax bills.

insurance and tax are paid for

You need to make sure your insurance covers it, SDP and commuting to normal place of work won't cut it. IIRC it used to put about another 50% on my premium to get cover for the monthly site visits I used to make. It was still worth it at 45ppm, though I'm surprised to see it's not gone up at all since then.

I’m fairly sure the rules changed in the past to allow you to drive a car that was a failure, but not a dangerous failure, until the cert expired

The way that I understand it, and what others have pointed out, is that it allows you to drive it home from the test centre, or to another garage to be fixed. The changes are actually a tightening of the rules, where it becomes illegal to leave the test centre when failed on a dangerous item.

An MOT is a test of roadworthiness. A fail of any kind says it's not roadworthy, and knowingly driving an unroadworthy vehicle is an offence whether you have a valid MOT cert or not. There's some leniance on travelling to and from the test centre.

IIRC it used to put about another 50% on my premium to get cover for the monthly site visits I used to make.

It must depend upon the job and the insurers judgement of risk involved.
When I was teaching we were strongly advised to take out class 1 business use to drive to meetings and training days, and have cover to carry colleagues and pupils as passengers ( never, ever pupils without another person). This never cost any extra premium in the 30 years I took it out.
Oh, and on the expenses front, the last college I worked for had a 22p/ mile rate for everyone except the senior management team and senior admin staff who got 40p. That was popular!

Oh, and on the expenses front, the last college I worked for had a 22p/ mile rate for everyone except the senior management team and senior admin staff who got 40p. That was popular!

The employer can pay whatever rate they want. The HMRC standard rate is 45p/mile (for the first 10k miles, 25p above that, can't recall the motorbike rate, the pedal bike rate is 20p/mile)
If the employer pay less than the HMRC rate you can claim the difference back via your self assessment tax return, if they pay more you will get taxed on it.
Mine just pay the HMRC rate

Adding business use to my insurance actually reduced the premium. Direct Line include it as standard.

If the employer pay less than the HMRC rate you can claim the difference back via your self assessment tax return,

As a PAYE employee from leaving university, with no other employment or income I never filled in a self assessment tax return in those 30 years until I left and became self employed as it wasn’t a requirement to do so. Many of my colleagues were in the same position. Naive? Certainly
Edit:
Just worked out that for the average 300 miles a year I probably did, I might have been able to claim £13.80 Doh.

Off topic really but..

If the employer pay less than the HMRC rate you can claim the difference back via your self assessment tax return

No you cannot claim the difference back, you can only claim the tax on the difference back. So only 20%, 40% or 45% of the difference between what your company pay and the 45pence "limit" depending on what rate tax payer you are, up to 10k miles, after that the difference to the 25p "limit".

For example if you are paid 14pence/mile business (Companies often use Gov guidance for company car rates for private car rates - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/advisory-fuel-rates )
20% tax - Claim back tax at 6.2pence/mile up to 10k, there after 2.2pence/mile
40% tax - Claim back tax at 12.4pence/mile up to 10k, there after 4.4pence/mile

So if you do, as an example, 15k business miles a year (32miles each way, 5days a week, 47weeks a year) the difference between 20% and 40% payer can be £2,100

So if you do, as an example, 15k business miles a year (32miles each way, 5days a week, 47weeks a year) the difference between 20% and 40% payer can be £2,100

That would be a commute.

Although that's lead to discussions before, as I'd argue that using my car for business starts at my front door, not the office.

E.g. need to visit a client. The choice between cycling to work and driving is then the businesses decision so I'm incurring expenses that I wouldn't otherwise have for the commute part as well.

That would be a commute.

Yes and no, for construction (site based) it could easily count as business and is payable.

Task of limited duration
3.14
Where an employee attends a workplace for a limited period of time to do a particular task or project then the workplace will be a temporary workplace, even where the employee’s attendance is regular.

This is on the basis that they’re attending for the purpose of performing a task of limited duration. See paragraph 3.18 and the 24-month rule.

Source https://www.gov.uk/guidance/ordinary-commuting-and-private-travel-490-chapter-3#temporary-workplace--attendance-for-a-limited-duration-or-temporary-purpose

I’d argue that using my car for business starts at my front door, not the office.

Back when I was doing this it was calculated from your regular place of work, regardless of where you actually started from. So if you're officially an office worker according to your contract, or a home worker, then that's where your mileage is calculated from. We had home workers who were really careful not to come into the office more than two days a week because there was a risk of being reclassified.

My understanding is that this wasn't company policy, it was from HMRC. So you can argue what you like but you're legally incorrect. I think, anyway!

When I reclaimed the tax on the shortfall in my business mileage payments, I didn't do a self assessment form, just sent HMRC a letter stating the mileage, what I'd been paid and how much tax I was claiming back. I received the rebate and wasn't ask to do SA.

If you are bored/interested, then well worth reading the examples on the page I linked above. Though it has to remembered that any payment by the company is purely voluntary (as in nothing forcing them to other than the terms in your contract with them), the only entitlement is the tax relief.

We had home workers who were really careful not to come into the office more than two days a week because there was a risk of being reclassified.

Yep clause 3.22 on my link - the 40% rule would cut in over the average of 2 days a week if their attendance is expected to be for over a 24 month period (see example "Edward"). If it was we need you in the office 3 days a week for the next 6 months, then back to your usual work from home with only 2 days in the office, then you'd still be eligible for tax relief (see example "Neil") as both parts of Clause 3.22 have to be met to remove the relief.

calculated from your regular place of work, regardless of where you actually started from. So if you’re officially an office worker according to your contract, then that’s where your mileage is calculated from

Sounds a little naughty/tight fisted if you were an office worker and went to a temporary place of work straight from home - I assume their reasoning is you'd have the cost of office commute if you just came into the office - While your company may have only offered the business mileage payment for mileage from office to visiting destination and back to the office (which they are entitled to as any payment by them is voluntary), you would be eligible for the tax rebate on the whole lot. So tax on the difference between payment and the 45p/mile for the office to destination and back PLUS the tax on the 45p/mile on the mileage difference between that funded and the actual journey distance - probably a right faff to show on a SA though! Probably easier to work out total annual business mileage, total company contributions and calculate the "average" company contribution and use that.