[Closed] More than 300 killed in Saudi Hajj stampede

Is it a case of being pushed over and then essentially trampled?

Suffocation and crushing, just like Hillsborough. Horrible, just horrible 🙁

How do people get killed in stampedes? Is it a case of being pushed over and then essentially trampled?

Crushing and asphyxiation.

The safety history of Mina isn't great. Looks like the stampedes are an annual occurrence. Surely they can change the layout to deal with this?!

They have tried. Several times. Roads have been widened, obstructions cleared etc, but it's just the sheer volume, and unpredictably, of the crowd.

Yes, very sad news 🙁

How do people get killed in stampedes? Is it a case of being pushed over and then essentially trampled? Surely they can change the layout to deal with this?

Squashed as they stand. Nasty business.

Maybe the permanent fix would be altering that there religious requirement to travel to Mecca. Although that might be another argument for another thread.

I'm not a religious man, but I'm slightly in awe of the faith people have to do Hajj. And Ramadan.

Shame theses accidents keep occurring though.

'Tis very scary being in a crowd like that. I went to a concert many moons ago which was all standing. Obviously everyone was crowding to the front. They told everyone to move back, alas for some mad reason halfway back was a barrier we were in front of, that was pretty hairy feeling a relatively small number (hundreds) of people pressing us up against it.

Makes sense 🙁 . I guess there's no chance of helping people up if there's a torrent of people running.
I've been to Reading festival enough times to feel the push and waves rippling through the crowd but everyone's helping each other out.

'Tis very scary being in a crowd like that.

The safety history of Mina isn't great. Looks like the stampedes are an annual occurrence. Surely they can change the layout to deal with this?!

They have but the volume of people involved is almost unimaginable.

[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

edit: Sad to say that the death toll is still being revised upwards.

Very sad, with the crane accident that's [s]420[/s] 540 deaths in a couple of weeks. You can imagine many of the injuries will be serious and for people who have little access to sophisticated medical treatment

One of the issues with the Hajj is some of the rituals require / encourage the crowd to work themselves up into a frenzy, eg they are stoning the devil. Sadly this is not a good mix when combined with very crowded confined spaces.

As for numbers yes it's amazing, I've been to Jeddah a number of times and the whole airport and immediate area is setup to transit these huge numbers and the area around Mecca is now hugely developed to cope. The Saudis have tried to regulate the flow of people but it's very difficult not least when they are emotionally in a fervour

[i]Death toll from Saudi Hajj stampede rises to 717, with at least 805 others injured, officials say[/i]

dreadful.

Terrible the sheer scale of the numbers of dead, but when you read further they are just going to three pillars to throw stones at them as they represent the devil, sorry but you are all bonkers.

Oh Dear.

Can't imagine the change in a persons outlook from one of Awe and Expectation to, well, Dismay and Pain.

Very sad indeed.

benji - Member
Terrible the sheer scale of the numbers of dead, but when you read further they are just going to three pillars to throw stones at them as they represent the devil, sorry but you are all bonkers.

hard not to agree benji

youd think it would test the faith of believers

benji - Member
sorry but you are all bonkers.

kimbers - Member
hard not to agree benji

Alas, it is not hard to disagree at all. (I wondered when this thread would take a turn toward religion!) I mean, we human beings participate in mass rituals of all sorts: sports events, music events, political rallies (in some places). They may well have, but I hope nobody said of the people who attended Hillsborough, 'they were just going to stare at a bunch of men kicking a round thing on the grass... sorry, but they are all bonkers.'

We are human. We get involved in mass events. When people die or suffer as a result, it is deeply sad.

[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_stampedes ]List of human stampedes.[/url]
Looking at the list it's all sorts of events- Shopping, culture, sporting, music, religious & theater
Not fair to bring religion into this.

TBF quite a lot of Muslims aren't impressed by the Saudi's money grabbing around Mecca. One described it to me as their Las Vegas!!

@wwas turely dreadful

At least they get to finally see the virgins upstairs

Sad, but not entirely unexpected.

@benji they are not bonkers it's their turely held belief to which they are perfectly entitled. What is in question is given the knowledge of how they will be whipped up emotionally is it sensible to have so many people ? Managing the Hajj has been a major problem for Saudi for a very long time and it's intensified with cheap air travel as its a religious duty to make the pilgrimage once in your lifetime if you can afford it. Given form many that th cost is very high relative to their income they wish to make the most of the trip, to be as religious as possible and that further inflames the emotions

[i]Sad, but not entirely unexpected. [/i]

Can we expect the same sort of response if a couple of 747's go down on the same day?

People are great at seeing the victims of tragedies as 'the other', aren't they?

"Not to worry it's just a load of people I probably don;t know and can't identify with who follow a silly religion and I expect they're all jolly cheerful about it anyway despite a terrifying and probably prolonged death.".

fuxsake.

stw's full of compassion when it's 'one of our own'.

Bunch of strangers? Sod 'em.

*and breathe*

Surely they can change the layout to deal with this?!

The Saudi's couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery let alone crowd manage millions of people.

@benji they are not bonkers it's their turely held belief to which they are perfectly en.......Ssssccccchhhhhhhwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwssssccchhhhhhhhhhhhhh<white-noise>ccccchhhhhhhhhhhhwwwwwwwwwwwwsssssssssssssss

Yep, bonkers. It's akin to stampeding for the opportunity to try a glass slipper on 2 fat slags and a fit peasant.

The Saudi's couldn't organize a piss up in a brewery let alone crowd manage millions of people.

gatsby - Member
@benji they are not bonkers it's their turely held belief to which they are perfectly en.......Ssssccccchhhhhhhwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwssssccchhhhhhhhhhhhhh<white-noise>ccccchhhhhhhhhhhhwwwwwwwwwwwwsssssssssssssss
Yep, bonkers. It's akin to stampeding for the opportunity to try a glass slipper on 2 fat slags and a fit peasant.

Isn't it a bit early in the day to be snorting coke?

Weirdest post ever.

Now, back to the fact that hundreds of people have just tragically lost their lives...

Bunch of strangers? Sod 'em.

Without wishing to sound blunt, that's the correct way to deal with this sort of thing. Whilst it's very tragic for all involved, I'm NOT involved, so I don't feel any loss.

I'll have enough grief of my own to deal with in my life without wasting energy mourning the loss of people I don't know.

Feels like divine retribution for them not opening up the site to help house the millions of refugees currently fleeing the conflict on their doorstep.

Feels like divine retribution for them not opening up the site to help house the millions of refugees currently fleeing the conflict on their doorstep.

You do know it's not only Saudis who have died, right? Muslims from all over the world will have been there.

Where was the divine intervention to stop it happening? Surely any merciful God would prevent this happening at his house. Again.

Most gods seem to be onto winners. They get credit when things go well but attract none of the blame when things go wrong.

True, you'd hope God would be too busy smiting dickheads on the internet

Does seem to be one every few few years, but how could you manage that volume of people - close to impossible

but how could you manage that volume of people - close to impossible

The Hajj does appear to be a huge earner for the Saudis, so I'd imagine health and safety isn't much of a priority.

The Hajj does appear to be a huge earner for the Saudis

~1% of gdp.

To put that into context in 2009 the USA spent 3.4% of it's GDP on Christmas shopping (not air fares, or any other stuff, just retail).

I think there's a religious quote about throwing the first stone?

Imagine the state of the portaloos.

But jokes aside, terrible way to die. Rip.

The Saudis have spent a lot of money trying to make or safer, building these bridges to divide up the crowd plus they have a transport system which deliberately regulates the flow of people so not so many (relatively) can arrive at once. This tragedy seems to have taken place 5km away on the approach to the site

True, you'd hope God would be too busy smiting dickheads on the internet

If many people step on a frail old person I am sure that person will die pretty easily.

loddrik - Member
Where was the divine intervention to stop it happening? Surely any merciful God would prevent this happening at his house. Again.

If we go by the logic of all god's work then s/he (god) want them to die by stampede.

I doubt s/he is that merciful if s/he can "create" then s/he can destroy at will according to his/her pleasure is it not?

And there we have it. Someone from the Saudi government just been on the radio proclaiming the deaths as 'gods will'.....!

3.2 million people in 2.1 million sq metres according to the bloke on the radio who was touted as an expert. There wasn't a lot of room per person.

"Not God's Will, it's mans incompetence" An interview from R4. I can't say I agree with the comparison with the London Underground as the concentration of people is very different. It does refrence a comment from a Saudi official stating the crush was due to African pilgrims 😯

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p033h10s ]R4[/url]

i was saddened to hear this yesterday as we celebrated Eid-al-Adha. my brother is currently there performing his Hajj pilgrimage along with some family friends. thankfully they were nowhere near the tragedy when it happened.

the stoning of the devil at Mina is a symbolic reenactment of Abraham's hajj, where he stone three pillars representing the temptation to disobey God and preserve Ishmael.All three jamar?t (pillars) represent the devil: the first and largest represents his temptation of Abraham against sacrificing Ishmael (Ism???l); the second represents the temptation of Abraham's wife Hagar (H?jar) to induce her to stop him; the third represents his temptation of Ishmael to avoid being sacrificed. He was rebuked each time, and the throwing of the stones symbolizes those rebukes.

Mohammed Jafari, an adviser to Haj and Umrah Travel, the first hajj tour operator in the UK, claimed the alleged road closures were a contributory factor to the crush.

Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme, he said: “The Saudis say after every disaster ‘it is God’s will’. It is not God’s will – it is man’s incompetence. Talking to pilgrims on the ground yesterday, the main reason for this accident was that the king, in his palace in Mina, was receiving dignitaries and for this reason they closed two entrances to where the stoning happened ... these were the two roads where people were not able to proceed.

“You have a stream of people going in and if you stop that stream, and the population builds up, eventually there is going to be an accident.

“It is the fault of the Saudi government because any time a prince comes along, they close the roads, they don’t think about the disaster waiting to happen.”

the Saudi government has invested heavily on improving the infrastructure to cope with the large volumes of pilgrims, but it was completely wrong to state that the deaths were "gods will"...it was more likely the result of the closure of 2 of the roads leading to the site due to the royal presence. accusing african pilgrims of being the cause is just abhorrent.

With numbers attending massively increased in the last 50 years largely due to ease of air travel, would it be daft to suggest extending the Hajj by a couple of days and effectively staggering the start for pilgrims?

How do you think a proposal to stagger christmas to avoid the rush would go down?

I wouldn't mind, however comparing the woes of Christmas shoppers against a crush killing over 700 is not the same. This continues to happen. I am sure pilgrims main concern is to stay safe. I am looking at it purely from an aspect of crowd control.

Is partaking in a ceremony at a particular time on a particular day worth the death of 700+?

would it be daft to suggest extending the Hajj by a couple of days and effectively staggering the start for pilgrims?

The date of Hajj is determined by Islamic calendar (known as Hijri calendar or AH), which is a lunar year.[28][29] Every year, the events of Hajj take place in a five-day period, starting on 8 and ending on 12 Dhul-Hijjah, the twelfth and last month of the Islamic calendar...so the answer is no.

Tickets. Run it like Glastonbury or any other festival. It's the only way to control numbers. You only have to make the journey once in your life right? Well 'there's always next year'.

Have you done the Hajj gonzy?
Is the movement through each phase constant throughout the whole day? Everyone is in one place on day one, then somewhere else on day 2 and so on?
I understand the Hajj does sometimes extend by one day?
What information and signage to pilgrims get?

I am curiuos. Interested as I admit to not having a clue.

As mentioned I heard that gates were closed due to royalty.
It must be a crowd control nightmare. So large, extreme heat, many elderly, and an array of different languages.

I have in the past commented that I've never met a bright racist.

But in the pub last night the casual UKIPers who prop up the bar every night were commenting on this. In a surreal discussion highlighting how better informed on such matters they are than us, when commenting on world events, we were informed that....

a) Mecca is in India
b) No it isn't ..... and you really couldn't make this up.... it's in Jerusalem

a) Mecca is in India
b) No it isn't ..... and you really couldn't make this up.... it's in Jerusalem

Typical leftie nitpicking. It's somewhere foreign and it's full of foreigners, dark ones at that - so obviously somewhere hot.

Does it really matter where exactly it is?

I've never met a bright racist

Enoch Powell was proper clever - he could speak 14 languages, 13 of them foreign.

Have you done the Hajj gonzy?

no not yet. house is on the market so once we've sold and moved into a bigger house and i've cleared all our debts (except the mortgage) then it'll be the next thing me and the missus will do.

EDIT: there will be a be a bike purchase in between that! 😛

on a serious note though....my mum suffered a stroke that left her partially paralysed so she did her pilgrimage in a wheelchair 9 years ago.
for the elderly its particularly difficult but from a spiritual point of view many go when they're elderly as they hope that if there is one place in the world they would want to die...it is in Mecca whilst performing Hajj.

I've never met a bright racist.

Unfortunately there are plenty of bright racists. To dismiss them all as stupid is playing in to their hands.

James Watson is a good example [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Watson#Provocative_comments ]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Watson#Provocative_comments[/url]

Werner von Braun is another obvious one.

at the risk of being completely wrong (given that I'm a card carrying agnostic) R5L said yesterday that Saudi had limited the visa's for this year to just 2million!

the stoning ceremony takes place on one day between dawn and midnight, so some 2million foreigners and however many saudis have to pass by an area the size of a football pitch in 18 hours, all throwing stones at a pillar.

one journalist said that some of the pilgrims take it literally so to inflict a bit more pain on the 'devil' they don't throw small pebbles in a symbolic act, they throw rocks - he got hit by a 'miss'.

still, at least they don't do crucifixion....oh, wait a minute.

yes they do limit the numbers every year and its a first come first served basis. they also dont allow you to return within 5 years unless you get a special dispensation.
they shouldn't be throwing rocks...as they should be collecting pebbles from the plains of Muzdalifah. 7 pebbles per jamarat. all 7 must land so usually they recommend you collect at least 49.

still, at least they don't do crucifixion....oh, wait a minute.

as they do in USA...your point being?

the stoning ceremony takes place on one day between dawn and midnight, so some 2million foreigners and however many saudis have to pass by an area the size of a football pitch in 18 hours, all throwing stones at a pillar.

This incident didn't happen on or near the bridge but...

The bridge in question is this:
[img] [/img]

It's five floors high and was (apparently) designed in conjunction with teams from [url= http://www.gkstill.com/CV/Projects/Jamarat.html ]british [/url]and [url= http://vwitme011.vkw.tu-dresden.de/TrafficForum/crowdturbulence/ ]german [/url]companies to ease crowd congestion. The plans were made for crowds of 5 million.

The pillars were remodelled into walls to help avoid the stoning accidents you describe.
[img] [/img]

This isn't some ramshackle, cobbled together operation, it's one of the largest mass participation events in the world.

Smudger666 - Member

still, at least they don't do crucifixion....oh, wait a minute.

I'm sorry, but you were fine until this last comment. I am not a Muslim, but the suggestion that 'Muslims crucify' based on the sickening activity of Daesh is tantamount to saying that Italians crucify because it was a method of punishment during the [i]Roman[/i] Empire...

Some really sick people are committing some appalling acts in the name of Islam. The vast, vast majority of Muslims either state very clearly that Daesh is wrong (hence the refusal to even call them ISIS), or else they are simply getting on with the task of being human beings.

To imply what you have is, frankly, irresponsible.

There's no obligation for Muslims to do the pilgrimage but it's become what Europe 1 described as pilgrimage tourism. Something I can relate to having walked to Compostelle a couple of times.

The crucifixion thing is about the guy who spoke out against the Saudi king as is to be crucified for his words. I wouldn't go on a pilgrimage through Spain if the king of Spain crucified those critical of him.

but the suggestion that 'Muslims crucify' based on the sickening activity of Daesh is tantamount to saying that Italians crucify because it was a method of punishment during the Roman Empire...

I suspect his post referenced this in Saudi Arabia:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-34338308

.your point being?

you're right - it was a daft thing to say in this thread - it was the cynical agnostic in me that got past my filter.

lemonysam - Member
I suspect his post referenced this in Saudi Arabia:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-34338308

Ah, I see. I hadn't considered that possibility. My apologies to Smudger for jumping the gun. 😳

It was but it was the wrong thread in which to bring it up.

t was completely wrong to state that the deaths were "gods will"...it was more likely the result of the closure of 2 of the roads leading to the site

I don't want to derail the thread but I'm genuinely curious,

If a doctor treats a child with an otherwise potentially terminal condition (I don't know, cancer and chemo, as a random example), is it considered "god's will" when the child pulls through, or is it the result of decades of research and a team of medical professionals?

If the former, how is the situation different from this tragedy to make that distinction? If the latter, under what circumstances would something be god's will? Natural disasters like being struck by lightning, maybe?

Is the Islamic concept of "god" a benevolent god, a vengeful god, or a little from both columns depending on how you behave? Not something I know a great deal about.

Hmm. Might be something for a separate thread?

Well if God is omnipotent then whatever happens, it is his will. It may be hard for us to explain in terms of our subjective experience but God is objective and unknowable. As Good Omens puts it:

You can't be certain that what's happening right now isn't exactly right, from an ineffable point of view.

...and if that fails, Free Will.

It was but it was the wrong thread in which to bring it up.

i get what you're trying to say and to be fair it does have a certain amount of relevance to the bigger picture but perhaps not at this stage.
i've been very critical of the saudi government in the past and continue to do so, so i know what you're getting at. they impose a very brutal and extreme interpretation of Islam on saudi people, the royal family are very hypocritical and their arrogance and deception is widely recognised within the muslim world, but as the custodians of that which islam holds most dearly, people try not to offend them too much.
they have had a very underhand role in many world issues from 9/11 to ISIS and Syria.
members of their royal family whilst extolling the virtues of islam one one hand, like to travel to europe and the US to have wild parties with lots of coke, hookers and booze involved. the saudi royal family are not the true representation of islam but unfortunately they hold the biggest cards

If a doctor treats a child with an otherwise potentially terminal condition (I don't know, cancer and chemo, as a random example), is it considered "god's will" when the child pulls through, or is it the result of decades of research and a team of medical professionals?

If the former, how is the situation different from this tragedy to make that distinction? If the latter, under what circumstances would something be god's will? Natural disasters like being struck by lightning, maybe?

the use of the phrase in this case is the saudi govt trying to shift the blame from themselves. the use of the phrase during Hajj is more commonly used for say for example when and elderly pilgrim dies whilst there from natural causes or as a result of an illness. when something like this happens its not gods will...its down to human incompetence.
getting hit by lightening would be classed as gods will.
as for the medical analogy...it depends on how spiritual you are. someone who is deeply religious or orthodox would say that it is gods will, a moderate would say its a bit of both, whereas at the other end of the scale they would say that it is down to medical excellence.

but as the custodians of that which islam holds most dearly, people try not to offend them too much.

I would have thought that was precisely all the more reason why they should be denounced and criticized.

Why not criticize the Saudi family which was elevated to power and privilege by British imperialism to serve its needs, and which today continues to serve Western neocolonialism and Zionist expansionism providing vital support in wars and destabilization tactics against other Islamic countries?

@Gonzy thanks for the contributions, I was very sorry to hear of this tragedy and it seems inevitable there will be British victims

@Cougar it's my understanding that traditionalists all of the religions Islam, Christianity and Judaism would regard God's Will as being the over riding factor in the recovery and with God giving strength and his blessing to the Doctor in carrying out what is in fact Gods work.

It's very sad news.

A good friend travelled to mecca for hajj for the first time in their life. Taking his wife and two sisters. Very sad and worrying. I've no idea or way of knowing if they're ok.

I know when they're due to be back in the UK so can only hope I see them again.

the use of the phrase in this case is the saudi govt trying to shift the blame from themselves. (etc)

Ah, got you. Cool, ta.

@Cougar it's my understanding that traditionalists all of the religions Islam, Christianity and Judaism would regard God's Will as being the over riding factor in the recovery and with God giving strength and his blessing to the Doctor in carrying out what is in fact Gods work.

What if the recovery didn't work? Still god's will if little Timmy karks it?

Just trying to understand this. The way it appears to me is, if it's not god's will but man's incompetence then we're cherry-picking favourable outcomes; if it is god's will then he's a bit of a git and I'm don't get why anyone would worship someone/thing like that. This is what I'm struggling to get me head round, have I got it wrong somewhere?

@Cougar: I will happily try to address the questions you raise in a while, but I am just heading out now. When I return, I'll use your last question to start a new thread.

(That said, there is always the issue that if it is an obvious thread about religion or God, it will end up becoming one of those chaotic 'discussions' that I simply can't keep up with because I don't type fast enough. [i.e. There are merits to keeping good questions buried in less obvious places...])

[s]G[/s]Mod's wish is my command

When I return, I'll use your last question to start a new thread.

That's probably a good idea - I didn't want to disrupt this one; though, the horse may have bolted.

tell you what, let me get my Boots De Moderateur:

<mod>
Please drop this here and go back to the original topic; we'll continue this on a separate thread.
</mod>

Please drop this here and go back to the original topic; we'll continue this on a separate thread.

And, here it is.

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/gods-will