[Closed] More problems with builder, threats and demands

If they step onto your property, call the police. Simple. If they think they are owed money, then they should proceed through the courts and a judge can decide.

Dont pay and they cannot rip the roof off as it leaves your property insecure
they have to use legal redress for this situation and cannot force you to sign a contract after the event
Do not under any circumstances sign this and the courts will take a very dim view on them turning up at your property and committing an assault if they get that far.

Do you have the original quote in writing from them or evidence of said quote?

I would simply explain you dont have that amount of money and haggle

If they have any sense they will realise the best way of sorting this is with your agreement as a court case will take some time for them to get their money

Personally I would not be getting myself into debt to pay a bill in excess of what was agreed
Make an offer in writng agreeing to pay the agreed costs and nothing more
Explain that this was the agreed deal and the agreed price and that they cannot just demand more from you and to stop coming to your property to demand more money.
If they disagree tell them to take you to court

I have a friend who got into this position, & paid. Do not do this, he still had to pay a 2nd builder to fix issues afterwards.

There's info out there (I've not read this but there must be useful advise amoungst it):
http://www.policyexpert.co.uk/how-to-deal-with-cowboy-builders/
http://www.consumerrightsexpert.co.uk/dealing-with-cowboy-builders.html

I'm sure there was a thread before about stuff like this.

A rubbish position to be in, really sorry to hear it, and unfortunately most of the advise is tailored to avoiding them in the first place, but do not back down. Fear and intimidation is just a tool to them, maybe try contacting that cowboy builder program, for advice if nothing else?
http://www.channel5.com/shows/cowboy-builders/features/need-us-to-investigate

There not gona rip your roof of did you ever have a written quote or sign anything if not the they have nothing no proof of what they have done so just give them a cheq for what you agreed an day they should be happy dont give cash as there's no trace

Why has the cost suddenly changed so much from there original quote? do you have the agreed price on paper? Have you paid the balance already before completion?

Ruffride, have you heard of punctuation?

If they were threatening and aggressive - call the police.

And as above, pay what was originally agreed by cheque and not a penny more, and tell them they'll have to take you to court if they want anything else.

Thanks for the support, I really need it at the moment.

We had a quote for a 9x3 building, the quote was good so we spoke about increrasing it by about a third to 11x3, he gave a verbal quote that we were happy with, we expected it to increase by about a 3rd on the original qoute but it has more than doubled. Problem is he was recommended by my neighbour, his mother, so we stupidly thought he would be ok.

We sent him a long letter about disputing the final costs as half way through we agreed a figure and that has now increased, we also asked for various other things such as breakdown of costs etc and we've just had a hand written piece of paper with some costs on it, not detailed or responding to our dispute over costs.

We have tried to negotiate with him but he won't he just insists on having his money, he told us to sell the car, mortgage the house, get my money!

Again, thanks for some support, more please, feels like I'm getting more help and advice here than with the authorities, I need to start to feel positive and that I'm doing the right thing, I'm going out to walk the dog for a few hours as it's driving me crazy sitting stewing on it.

As has been said ^^^ get all the paperwork together, log every call/conversation. If you can record it then do so and tell them that's what you are doing but try and insist on written communication. Get advice asap from one of the links above, they will have dealt with this type of thing before. Been there, it's a shitty place to be and I feel for you. Also, if they say they are coming round do not, under any circumstances, meet them on your own, make sure that you have witnesses. If they try to remove the roof IIRC it would be trespass with criminal damage but check that and if it is you may want to let them know that you are aware. Good luck and keep us posted.

edward2000 - what has punctuation got to do with this thread? It is about cowboy builders not punctuation!

Do not pay them!

edward2000 - Member
Ruffride, have you heard of punctuation?

Child !!!

Call the police. You have agree a price and then they are trying to extort more money above the price without agreement. They cannot take your roof off or remove any part of your property. Trespass is illegal - so if they enter your property without a warrant or permission they are breaking the law.

Some great advice here.

Sorry to hear about it all - i hope the saga comes to an end soon as it sounds like a nightmare.

Perhaps a quote from a second builder as a means of agreeing a reasonable cost for the work done. Also if costs have escaletted beyond the original understanding I would want to see evidence (receipts and logs of man hours - eg diaries etc). I contract building work frequently and understand that smaller operations can find cash flow very challenging. However, I think that a sense of what is proportional and reasonable to both parties needs to be reached without threats.

Call the police if he sets foot on your property without an invitation. Communicate in writing.

Either a quote from a decent builder (explain the situation and offer to pay for their time) or, which I think will be more official, get a surveyor (go here http://www.rics.org/uk/ ) and pay for a proper cost breakdown and also get the work checked as chances are they may well have cut corners too. On the last point alone it will be worth it.

You should have legal cover on your home insurance so make use of that too.

I'd arrange to meet him 'to discuss' then get the Police round at the same time. Ring them and say its gonna kick off/GBH/stabbing etc and they'll attend.

Once he gets the message intimidation and threats don't work, you'll be able to sort the commercials sensibly.

Was it a quote or an estimate he gave you? Estimates are subject to change. When I got an extension built, most of the trades gave estimates. He can't take the building apart though, nor can he withold certificates.

It would be worth paying a surveyor / builder to asess the work and give a valuation and point out any defects and quote to rectify. Use that to decide what you actually owe. Write to him a) that is what you will pay by cheque on receipt of all certificates and guarantees. B) all future communication to be in writing c) any further threats any further personal visits and any attemp to cause damage to your home will be reported to the police and all so be pursued through the civil courts for financial compensation.

Make sure you record (video and/or audio) all future dealings with them if you haven't already. Remember to ask "Are you threatening me?"

Edit: As someone cleverly pointed out on a cycling cam/accident thread, the fact your video is running also reminds you not to say or do anything that will reflect badly on you.

I'd arrange to meet him 'to discuss' then get the Police round at the same time. Ring them and say its gonna kick off/GBH/stabbing etc and they'll attend.

I wouldn't bet on that. 5 years ago I called the police to say I knew a bloke who was going home to beat up his girlfriend. "Sorry, we don't have enough resource tonight. Can't do anything." was their response. Sure enough, the bloke turned up and attacked her with a set of keys.

Ok, tell them you've seen a gun. They'll be round PDQ.

Do not pay - they're bullying you.
I've had similar in the past, stood my ground and the so-called "tradesman" didn't get the extra money he was demanding.
Next time call the police and keep calling them every time they visit - tell them you fear for your safety and your family's safety.
Good luck.

Just perhaps Mr Builder has done extra work ,bought extra materials and his account at the timber yard builders merchant is now due for payment, just sometimes customers forget what thyve agree to especially when a higher price is quoted.

Its nothing to do with building control, unless the work is sub standard and doesnt conform to building standards etc, same with the police, they may only atend if they believe there may be a breach of the peace and resourses allow.

Go to mediation and pay him some money due, to keep him still solvent.

Juast imagine you went to work your boss asked you to do extra work, and buy some stuff for work using your money you said i want paying for it , he agrees verbally, time to get paid you dont get paid extra, you go round and demand your boss pays you the money as you have bills to pay.

Works both ways.

Ruffride, have you heard of punctuation?

Not cool. Neither the right time nor place.

Sticks head above parapet. I agree with Project. There's always two sides. Find the happy ground.

There's always two sides

3 sides their side the builders side and the TRUTH, sometimes the sum of the 3 doesnt add up/

Not cool. Neither the right time nor place.

Why? It's not like someone has died.

Not knowing all the ins and outs Project does have a point.

Ok, tell them you've seen a gun

That's the best way to instantly get Plod not on your side. Don't be daft

I've just got back from being out for a while, nice to meet and talk to normal people without feeling stressed or threatened although I can't stop feeling anxious.

I've been recording our conversations since it all kicked off about a month ago, I've got a solicitor and he helped me to put together the first letter and I've just had a Quantity Surveyor do a site visit to write up a report. I informed the builder of all this, I think that's why they decided to get heavy and get the brother involved. I did state in the letter that I wanted in writing what was need to complete, total cost and that we would have to agree on this before proceeding and that I would require it to be fully signed off and all guarantees, but they don't seem to have understood this, I tried to explain this to him a few days ago and he basically said 'f*** the letter, it doesn't mean anything', so I'm kind of banging my head against a brick wall here trying to deal with him.

I've tried to negotiate with him to meet in the middle, but he won't have it, accordingly to the quick summary email I had from the QS he should have made a profit on what he has done and money he has had so far, so either he's being stitched up on 3rd party work or he's not getting trade rates for materials? As in my previous threads/posts I can only assume he's grossly underestimated the work, we've already agreed a higher price but he's upped that again and I don't feel that this is my problem, if we had known the final cost we wouldn't have had the work done and he's admitted thst he 'doesn't know what the cost will be until it's finished' which just suggests he doesn't really have a clue, and so he makes my and my partners life a misery.

So theyre going to come round at a pre arranged time and date 7 days, and take back the materials they have paid for and you refuse to pay them for, they will then loose out all the pay for the job they have done, along with possible damage to the materials,which they may be able to reuse.

Like ive said in previous posts never work on big jobs for neighbours as when the time comes for payment and you as a builder/contractor might mention youre going on holiday, anywhere,the customer will think we cant afford a holiday, we are paying for you holiday, and sometimes get funny over the standard of work, payment, cost etc etc, seen it happen.
Oh and youve still got to function as neighbours, and other neighbours will take sides, a not nice situation develops.

I've already paid for all the materials, they've had a large chunk of my money already, at no point did he say about extra costs as he was doing the work or keep me informed, I didn't agree to their final cost which they informed me of at about 7pm on a Friday when they were suppose to finish the job, then proceeded to shout, swear, threaten and demand payment there and then, they are providing me with no paperwork or receipts, failing to co-operate or answer simple questions. Threatening to pull down my building, getting in my face, acting aggressively, swearing and shouting at me and my family, demanding the full payment before the work is complete ... is hardly the way a decent honest professional trader operates, is it?

Was the initial quote between £1,000 to £1,200/m2?
Did the quote include VAT?

Was the initial quote between £1,000 to £1,200/m2?

If the builder has only built the structure I certainly hope it's nowhere near £1k to £1.2k per m2.

Speak to your solicitor again . Do not speak to the builder other than to say go away all future communication is to be in writing and suggest he send you a full itemised account of all work done and materials. If this is the scenario project suggests above he should have no problem providing a written explanation of what is owed .

and ask the solicitor for a full breakdown of all costs incured ,phone calls leters etc.

equal footing and all that .

equal footing and all that .

Footings are extra. Double if you want them equal.

He's only built the structure, brick and block, no electric, plumbing, plastering or finishing and he's asking approx. £950 sq/m, but this wasn't this figure on the original quote, this was approx. £480 sq/m, which I now know to be grossly underpriced, I totally relied upon his quote and judement on prices, I had no idea, I'm not a builder so thought he knew what he was doing? Maybe that's how he gets work, underquote then keep adding extras and wallop you get a massive bill at the end? We did agree on a new cost, this is the problem as he has put that new cost up again by £5000

Solicitors are obliged to quote in advance . Re quote if the job changes and where billing on a time worked basis provide a bill itemized to every letter telephone call and fraction of time worked down to the last 6 mins if asked . And submit their bills for independent approval. So yes builders should do the same . The rules are such that if the solicitor does not comply then the client legally does not have to pay . So yes builders should be on that footing .

£1,000 to £1,200/m2 should get you completed extension including all sub trades.
Where does he stand on the VAT front?

Surely if he's given you a 'quote', then that's the price you pay for the completed job. It doesn't really matter what his breakdown of it is. Only extras you should pay would be for unforeseen work which you agreed to after the contract was agreed.

Tell him to eff off. If he comes around again, film him (I'm sure that you can do this on your mobile phone) and call the police. Regardless of the situation, the way he is acting is bang out of order.

edward2000 - Member
Ruffride, have you heard of punctuation?
Child !!!

Sorry thought it was a forum not a job application, the joys of giving a little help.

We have asked him for an itemised account of work done and materials, he gave me a hand written list of costs for some work, a total for something and said he had another amount for receipts, that's all, not a proper breakdown, he listed a small step and corner section of concrete as £1000 whicj I thought was excessive.

Another problem is that we had a leak in the roof, I contacted him about this and he said he would get the roofers to look, they turned up on Friday along with him and his brother, the roofers were there about 10 mins before them and they were up on the roof looking at it, then the builder went up on the roof, eventually they came down and said it's nothing to do with them and blamed my existing roof, today it's been raining and the leak is worse than before, it wouldn't surprise me if he went up there had a word with them and interfered with it to make it worse, My surveyor has said it wasn't leaking before the work so it's down to them, but I know I'll get nowhere with them, if he was any kind of decent professional he's have wanted to sort it out to keep his customer happy.

We feel the best thing to do is just tell them to eff off and don't come back and get a proper builder in to finish it off, and rather spend money with someone else and we just don't want someone like that on our property or in our house. If they feel we oew them money they can take us to court but I'll have a pretty good reason to defend it.

Sunday morning and the brother is supposed to come around this morning expecting me to sign a contract, not signing it, no way! But my partner seems to think that we can explain the situation to him better, but I don't think they'll listen, they don't seem to understand that we're not happy with the way the cost has gone up, his unprofessional demands behaviour and threats, he doesn't reply to our letter or requests, won't put anything in writing, won't negotiate or discuss things in a civil manner. We might be able to talk to the brother but if they both turn up it's just going to be more aggression, threats and demands, so that's when I'll be dailing 999.

Sunday morning and the brother is supposed to come around this morning expecting me to sign a contract, not signing it, no way!

Why don't you pre-empt this?
Ring him up and tell him that you are not going to sign a contract and not to bother coming around. Tell him from now on you will only converse with him or the brother by letter.

On another note all the discussion over price is irrelevant - if he's quoted you a price then that's what you should pay. If he's underestimated the cost of the job then that's his fault and he'll have to absorb the cost.

This is a very similar situation which happened to me in the past - stand your ground and they will back down.

Ask a 3rd party to be there as an independent witness to the proceedings. With recording equipment if necessary

Is the builder a member of any trade organisations, FMB or similar? Contact them. They 'may' be in a position to assist.

Re the roof - agree with the posts above. If it didn't leak beforehand, it's something they have done. Is the leak on the join of the two roofs? I wouldn't allow this builder, nor his subbies on your property to do any further work.

He sounds like a real rogue. Certainly not the correct way to resolve any disputes.

I'll be rocording it as usual and make sure there's a 3rd party, they don't like it when there's a 3rd party, I've had my step father present before and they told him to eff off.

I'll be interested to see what they put in this contract, might put them deeper in the s**t.

With the roof, we have to give them the opportunity to resolve any issues as it wouild look bad in court if we refused them access, but I was not happy about having them look at it, I expected the outcome to be honest. Part of the roof goes around a chimney on the side of the building, it's this area that's leaking.

No idea if they are a trade member, I seriously doubt it and don't think they'd tell me if they were.

No idea if they are a trade member, I seriously doubt it and don't think they'd tell me if they were.

Look up their company name(s) on the various sites. If you don't find them then call up each body and ask the to look - I had to do this once when I couldn't find someone specific. Like you, I seriously doubt they're registered anyway.

Good luck this morning. As above, ensure everything is recorded.

I had this happen, almost carbon copy, you are not in devon are you? I resolved with a solicitor, surveyor who condemmed the work, and a recording of him threatening me..

With what you've told us about the leak, I'd be keeping them away from it, bringing in a surveyor to assess the quality of workmanship, and getting someone else to finish it properly.

Hopefully you've withheld enough from the bugger to make that workable.

Threats = police.

Threats = Police 100%

I'm a couple of steps behind you in a similar process. We had a load of plastering and other work done back in April and May, agreed that we'd pay in 3 instalments over 3 months. Guess what, the final instalment is due, there are a whole load of little jobs that haven't been finished off and all I get are excuses as to why he can't return to complete the work. He still wants paying though, which is a bit unfortunate for him because I've no intention of giving him any more money until he's done what we agreed (no written contract) and then I've deducted the stuff I've already paid others to finish and factored in a buggeration tax as well. I've no doubt he's going to get shirty and I've no doubt that I'll need to explain to him that unless he can keep things civil that we'll be communicating through solicitors and I'll get a court injunction barring him from setting foot on my land.

Some people expect to feed off you. Don't let them, and don't take their shit.

I'll be rocording it as usual and make sure there's a 3rd party, they don't like it when there's a 3rd party, I've had my step father present before [b]and they told him to eff off.[/b]

It is against the law to abuse someone in public, this can be reported to the police and they should act on it (make sure you don't also tell them to eff off)
Details here:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/64#pt1-l1g4
Relevant section is:

Fear or provocation of violence.
A person is guilty of an offence if he uses towards another person threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour,with intent to cause that person to believe that immediate unlawful violence will be used against him or another by any person, or to provoke the immediate use of unlawful violence by that person or another, or whereby that person is likely to believe that such violence will be used or it is likely that such violence will be provoked.

Kojaklollipop are you under a new patio ? How did the meeting go ?

Builders eh! 🙄
Are you reasonably handy? If so front him up if he dares come back to your property. Knobs acting like this cause our trade the world of pain!
As above, pay what was agreed on the quote and no more. ask for all material receipts, break down of costs etc etc, do you have a diary of hrs worked?
Keep something "handy" by the front door..,

BOMBERS !!!

Meeting never happened, 9am this morning I get a phone call from my local PC who I contacted on Saturday to explain the situation, he wanted to pop along to get the full story and offer what advice he could. So he was here for about an hour, gave some very good advice as he has had to deal with similar situations before. It's restored my faith in the authorities.

It's hard when you're in the middle of it all to see a clear way of doing things, both my partner and I just couldn't seem to function or make a decision, so it was great to have somebody say, you can do this, you can do that, you don't have to do this. He went through their paperwork that I had received and basically said it stood no chance, they have not provided me with information I requested, proper contract, signed paperwork, very unprofessional. So basically we tell them in a nice letter to eff off, make no contact directly only through my solicitor, not to come to the property - if they do call the police, and that's that. If they do carry out their threat of taking or damaging my property the PC will happily put them in court.

I'd imagine they, or their mother, saw the police car outside and decided not to call, although we did wait until gone midday just incase they did, but we were advised to put a note on the door basically saying leave the property, don't return, will not answer door, will contact them in writing.

It's like a massive weight has been lifted, although it might not be over yet as who knows what they might decide to do, in a way it would be good if they did decide to try and take the roof off.

The money they've received so far should cover the costs and profit for the work to date according to my Quantity Surveyor so this will be mentioned in the letter, but whether or not they decide to accept that is another thing.

For all those who slate the police, sometimes they do come up trumps and have clearly made you feel safer in your own home, so big up to your local bobby for that!

Might be worth the OP getting an old banger painted up in police colours, and leave it on the drive 8)

Unfortunately there's knobs in every trade and profession.

Next to my front door is a fork, shovel, sledgehammer, axe, large spike and crowbar ... that's because I'm removing some tree stumps in the front garden.

More likely to be cowardly vandalism of the brick through the window variety. Can anyone lend you a discreet cctv camera for a few weeks?

^^^ that's the spirit (safety net) ^^^

Do you have an invoice & receipt of payment for the work done?

Can anyone lend you a discreet cctv camera for a few weeks?

Surely an overt one, as a deterrent, would be better?

Yeah I'd go for overt as well. Shows you are being proactive in protecting the interests of your property and are not up for taking any shit!

Maybe a brick or some damage to the cars, but it'll be obvious who did it but unlikely to prove it.

No invoice or receipts, we've been asking but not getting anything. The building, luckily, is sound as it's been subject to building control inspections at every stage - apart from the leaky roof, and we'll just be happy to have them out of our lives.

I'd been phoning 101 to keep them updated on the situation, have a ref number to keep refering to, but the only reponse I had from that was it's a civil matter and nothing they can do, it's only when I decided to phone and speak to a PC directly that something was done about it. He asked if I had contacted Trading Standards, I had open a case online and even phoned them and they said there was nothing they could do, he was surprised at this and told me there's a local office go to them and speak to a Trading Standards officer and get as much information as possible. So the help and advice is there, it's just a case of going to the right person.

I did think of the CCTV option, will have a look at some systems tomorrow.

You didn't pay in cash though?

Part cash, part bank transfer. They could argue I haven't paid the cash, but I have witnesses, the amounts being withdrawn from my account, and it was suggested I could argue that I'd paid the amount they were asking and they'd have to prove I didn't, so it works both ways, the PC said it's unlikely they'd do that as they probably won't be declaring it.

Well, I'm going to have a large drink now and hope it all ends soon and not get worse, I'll keep it posted.

Thanks for everyone's support and suggestions 😀

It is against the law to abuse someone in public,

On your property isn't 'in public'.

Perhaps you're having an STW BBQ on the exact date they next pop round to intimidate you? 😉

Perhaps you're having an STW BBQ on the exact date they next pop round to intimidate you?

Oh yeah. That garden full of overweight, socially awkward, IT-working, t-shirt wearing bike g33ks is going to see him scared.

Oh yeah. That garden full of overweight, socially awkward, IT-working, t-shirt wearing bike g33ks is going to see him scared.

Shame he's in Sussex. There are plenty of STW ninjas up here.

On your property isn't 'in public'.

That particular episode was in front of my house on the public footpath and road for about an hour, arguing, swearing, etc. didn't even think of getting onto 999, I think we were all in shock at the time.

Actually got an ok's nights sleep, been waking up everynight and BANG it's there going through your head straight away, same with almost every waking hour too. Feel better able to deal with it today so we've got to get a letter together, the PC said he'd look at it before we send it as he gave lots of advice about what to put in it. The only anxiety now is are they going to come and do something to us or our property, I'm giving the case number and details to the good neighbours so if they see anything going on they can get onto the police straight away .... wonder if his mum would do this for us too 😉 she used to keep an eye on the property when we were away and take parcels for us, say hello and have a chat, she'd probably turn a blind eye now 😐

On your property isn't 'in public'.

Sections 4A and 5 of the POA can be committed in public or private.

Sections 4A and 5 of the POA can be committed in public or private.

You might recall this was recently debated by many top legal bods when some B list celeb waved a kitchen knife at some trespassing scallywags in her garden. The general consensus was the law was not meant to protect threatening people on your property, despite what the Police may think. Obviously were one to use the same actions against someone who was on your property going about their legal business (e.g. Postman) then the law would apply.

Oh yeah. That garden full of overweight, socially awkward, IT-working, t-shirt wearing bike g33ks is going to see him scared.

😆

Actually, that's the thing with cowardly bullies, they CAN easily be deterred by determined individuals; the battle is mental, not physical.

Oh yeah. That garden full of overweight, socially awkward, IT-working, t-shirt wearing bike g33ks is going to see him scared.

Man, that hurts 🙁

Just found his thread and havent read all the posts but as some have already said, call 999 next time he comes to your house demanding money and issuing threats....report abuse, threats to damage property and intimidation to the 999 operator and you should have a unit there fairly quickly....you also may want to mention they are acting aggressively towards a female (your other half?) and whether you have children in the house or not....this can also hasten the police along in my experience.

With regard to actually sorting the problem, send him/his company a letter detailing your understanding of the agreement/debt and that he will have to take you to small claims court if he feels underpaid....at his point he'll either accept your payment or proceed to court, provided you have some proof of the previous financial agreements then court wouldnt be a bad option to be fair.

I had problems with some builders in a neighbours house who were blocking me in constantly, dumping stuff in my garden, things escalated and at one point they put a hose through my letterbox and blew a load of dust through....thankfully i had the interior/porch door closed so it didnt go into the sitting room but the porch looked like it had been snowing!
I dealt with it by slashing the tyres on every one of their vehicles parked outside my house (3 vehicles/12 tyres)....the problems stopped after that...their job would have become prohibitively expensive if they had to put new tyres on their vans every time they came to do some work!

I dont advocate this approach, it can backfire massively if you dont honestly believe in an eye-for-eye approach to things and arent prepared to have similar done to you in return.
Anyway, use the police and courts, they are there to protect you in situations like this.