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but he wasnt elected by rascists or stupid people, they thought he would do better then the incumbent or opposition
.
So clearly gullible and stupid then
Well they were gullible enough to believe the shite spewed out by centrists like yourself that the alternative was a racist terrorist-loving extreme left-wing supporter of Putin , I'll give you that.
And that undoubtedly helped Boris Johnson massively.
TBH Boris campaigned on the simple task of ‘Get Brexit Done’ and wasn’t one of those other people who were thwarting the will of the people to actually do it.
This line appealed to a lot of people.
You can’t call people stupid for falling for the lies, Brexits a cult and the leaders used every trick in the book and whole load of new ones with the targeting to various groups, going for Indian restaurant owners and animal lovers and persuading them that out was in their interest and the evil eu was stopping them have more workers/implement stricter animal rights, I don’t think you could make it up.
Then add in a red bus and the NHS and hordes of immigrants coming in, there was a Brexit Unicorn for every possible group.
dissonance – I was reffering to Ernie. with the cognitive dissonance trying to square the circle of being anti racist and a brexiteer
Much as I disagree with Ernie on this issue, you're talking complete cobblers. There was and is a principled socialist case for Brexit, the problem is that those voices were predictably drowned out by the anti immigrant right. For me, remaining in the EU was a pragmatic choice.
Yes I agree. the lexiteer case is available ( but nonsense IMO). the cognitive dissonance comes from being a fellow traveller with the racists who wanted brexit and ending up in a situation of supporting racists in a racist endeavour. So what do folk in this position do? Ignore / deny the racism inherent in brexit
Lie down with dogs get fleas
Morecash - you were right and I apologise for my part in derailing this thread.
The labour movement historically took responsibility for the political education of workers. Without that many people will be seduced into working against their own interests by backing the likes of Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, or even more unsavoury historical characters. I was mocked by one or two of the party cadre on here for mentioning the modern Labour Party’s dereliction in this area, but their actions (or rather inaction in this area) will likely be one part of their own electoral undoing when the next election bring us more enemies of democracy and their fellow travellers.
being a fellow traveller with the racists
What a daft comment. I have no truck with racists, no matter what the circumstances.
Nick Griffin the former leader of the BNP and well-known neo-nazis supports the Palestinians in their current struggle against a genocidal regime, do you think that my support for a Free Palestine makes me a fellow traveller with neo-nazis?
Can we get back to dealing with issues concerning Badenoch-Farage-Starmer and the wider implications and leave my opinions on the EU for another time when they might actually perhaps be relevant?
it was stupid to vote for Brexit unless you were amongst the tiny few who actually benefited. Those people are feeling the results of Brexit more than most, but hey it’s Ok for them to double down on the stupid they caused because them feel worse off
Do you always vote in your own financial best interests? I certainly don't (so call me stupid). Why expect them to?
I’m just hoping Farage carries out his threat to sue her over the membership numbers. But that driven wanting to laugh at Nigel when he loses and the real membership number is zero. It will be zero because Reform Ltd is a company of which dear Nigel owned between 50-75% of the shares according to Companies House. It’s not a membership organisation. It might well have tens or even hundred thousands of donors to the company.
I have no truck with racists
I do know this Ernie and made sure I said it.
You can’t call people stupid for falling for the lies,
Out of interest what do you call them? Gullible I suppose which is a form of stupid isn't it?
If someone, lets say Badenoch to save Binners tedious direction sign, was selling the premise that the countries problems are caused by immigration and if immigration was lower you would be better off would you believe them. If not, why not?
Out of interest what do you call them? Gullible I suppose which is a form of stupid isn’t it?
I would go for poorly informed. A major issue is none of the non hard right politicians seem interested in going these are the problems, this is how brexit it made it worse and this is how we want to fix it.
They seem to have a belief that even saying brexit failed to fix the issues it was claiming to fix cant be done which then leaves it open to farage and friends to say "it didnt work because of the remainers. Let me do the job properly". The advantage him and friends have of avoiding the post vote mess is they can use the claim their genius plan was undermined.
"utterly vile human being,"
Surely an ideal qualification for any politician?
Very few are nice people, the idea that their personal views are the right thing for the rest of us is abhorrent. Specific policies aside that is slightly worse for anyone with even a mildly socialist attitude as you can chuck hypocrisy into the mix.
Equally , unless anyone has personal and close experience with a person how can you say what they are like?
You'll never win the Brexit argument as the options were cold gravy or rain on Mondays. The opposing factions wanted totally different issues and voted accordingly. One side want to stay for financial reasons, the other wanted to leave to gain policy self control. It wasn't black or white, more fish or firewood.
Isn't it funny how the supposed carrying part of society, the left trendy types are so often the nasty ones slagging off the opinions of others?
And why do the dimwits always link immigration with racism. Proves stupidity . I want our numbers to drop. I care not a toss where you come from but we are bloody well full to the point of deterioration. I'd happily take on another 10 million if we lost 20 million.
the idea that their personal views are the right thing for the rest of us is abhorrent.
You must really struggle on STW political threads.
(remember her?)
I do, the problem is that there is so little of interest about her in the news currently, as your post amply highlights.
Have you got a link at least which gives a bit more detail with regards to what Badenoch has said today?
This is it in full. A tweet. That tends to be the only way she communicates with the outside world.
I do like the way that Badanoch and other privately educated Tories are using the SEND thing as a defence of private education. Yes, the SEND provision is now so bad because funding for it was decimated due to 14 years of cuts to it, leaving people having no option but to resort to private provision.
Those people are hardly representative of the majority who choose to privately educate their kids and to suggest they are is somewhat disingenuous, to say the least. Or unbelievably hard-faced and hypocritical would probably be more accurate
https://twitter.com/kemibadenoch/status/1873691005788307878?s=46&t=1lK7Dw1b6RqGJyvufO-trQ
the shite spewed out by centrists like yourself that the alternative was a racist terrorist-loving extreme left-wing supporter of Putin
Please don't make shit up, I have never said anything remotely like that and in fact voted for Corbyn as a least worst alternative to the Tory Brexit lies. Not sure centralists existed as any form of coherent pressure group during Brexit either.
Do you always vote in your own financial best interests? I certainly don’t (so call me stupid). Why expect them to?
That's a pretty silly statement in this context, it's one thing to vote in a way that costs you but benefits people worse of, and yes I have done that. But to vote for Brexit was to vote for a handful or extremely wealthy people even more wealthy to the detriment of the most vulnerable, I don't seeing any mitigating circumstances for doing that.
As for Brexit voters being ill informed, if you choose to get all your news from social media or the daily fail that's on you, I'm not sure what politicians can do about that, Corbyn certainly didn't make any effort to change the narrative to trying to avoid Brexit.
I have never heard of Lord Shinkwin before and my immediate reaction upon seeing your link binners was that he looks like a badly made muppet.
So I googled him only to discover that he suffers from something called osteogenesis imperfecta, which doesn't sound at all pleasant.
Now I feel really bad about myself which I'm blaming you for binners 🙁
Please don’t make shit up, I have never said anything remotely like that and in fact voted for Corbyn as a least worst alternative to the Tory Brexit lies.
There is nothing made up. Centrists accused Corbyn of being a racist terrorist-loving extreme left-wing supporter of Putin, something which undoubtedly massively helped Boris Johnson win a landslide. Although it was of course a pack of lies.
If you are disputing the suggestion that you are a centrist yourself that's another issue. But you certainly come across as one.
It’s probably my fault Ernesto. Most things are.
This thread suggests the season of good will to all men didn't last that long for some people...
I've never known stw to take a day off from hating Tories/Brexiteers/Red Wall voters.
That’s a pretty silly statement in this context
The context was you calling people stupid for voting against their own financial interests, something many of us do. That's not necessarily because we're gullible or poorly informed, it can be because we value other things more than we do our own financial interests (eg a fairer and more inclusive society in my case). So, belligerency of tone aside, why not let's try to understand why people vote as they do?
Centrists accused Corbyn of being a racist terrorist-loving extreme left-wing supporter of Putin,
Which mythical centrist was that Ernie? The right wing (people like Badenough to keep vaguely on topic) absolutely painted Corbyn like that, but then his actions and lack of media savvy gifted that to them.
You seem to have invented a new bogey man so you can avoid holding the red wall voters accountable for their actions. Weird that working class voters can't be derided for how they vote but mythical centrists are fine to slag off and even responsible for how others vote.
Which mythical centrist was that
Me, for a start. All those things are true. It's Corbyn's innate contrarianism combined with his lack of sophistication that makes him oblivious to the faults of his enemy's enemy. That's why he's such an enthusiastic interlocutor of both the IRA and Hamas (who have little in common), and so amenable to repeating Putinite talking points on Ukraine that he would never apply to Palestine. But that's a topic for another thread (or better still no thread at all).
The context was you calling people stupid for voting against their own financial interests, something many of us do.
Yeah, but most of the Brexity-Reform-Yaxley-Lennon mob don't do it knowingly. They actually believe that the country would be better off financially, as well as 'culturally' if there were no brown people living here.
The halfwits.
Wow Stumpy, you are actually attempting to deny that centrists had a campaign against Corbyn which accused him of being an anti-semitic racist, friendly with terrorists, matey with Putin, and a left-wing extremist, that's quite something! That level of dishonesty is frankly astonishing!
Well it is clearly pointless getting into any sort of debate with someone who is determined to deny the bleedin obvious but I will throw in the names Peter Mandelson and Margaret Hodge of examples of the sort of people that I am talking about.
And it's also bleedin obvious that the character assassination carried out on Corbyn by the centrists helped Boris Johnson massively in the red wall seats. What else do you think it might have done ffs?
mythical centrists
At last something which we can agree on! Of course centrists are a myth, there is no such thing. They simple and straightforward right-wingers. I think it was Macron in France who first made the term highly popular because it helps people to pretend that they are not supporting/voting for right-wing politics. Dunno if Macron still pretends that he and his party is not right-wing?
Which mythical centrist was that Ernie? The right wing (people like Badenough to keep vaguely on topic) absolutely painted Corbyn like that, but then his actions and lack of media savvy gifted that to them.
You seem to have invented a new bogey man so you can avoid holding the red wall voters accountable for their actions. Weird that working class voters can’t be derided for how they vote but mythical centrists are fine to slag off and even responsible for how others vote.
And FWIW, that's a fantastic post. Nails some fallacies and strawmen superbly.
I'm a centrist (boo, hiss) and I voted for Corbyn. I voted from conviction. I also knew it was a wasted vote because Corbyn was a gift to the RW rags and populist rabble-rousers like Johnson (as well as the gullible, bigoted types that lapped it up). There's no contradiction in that.
deny that centrists had a campaign against Corbyn which accused him of being an anti-semitic racist, friendly with terrorists
And
Of course centrists are a myth, there is no such thing
You've even managed to disagree with yourself, in the space a single post!
Wow Stumpy, you are actually attempting to deny that centrists had a campaign against Corbyn which accused him of being an anti-semitic racist, friendly with terrorists, matey with Putin, and a left-wing extremist, that’s quite something! That level of dishonesty is frankly astonishing!
Well it is clearly pointless getting into any sort of debate with someone who is determined to deny the bleedin obvious but I will throw in the names Peter Mandelson and Margaret Hodge of examples of the sort of people that I am talking about.
And it’s also bleedin obvious that the character assassination carried out on Corbyn by the centrists helped Boris Johnson massively in the red wall seats. What else do you think it might have done ffs?
100% the behaviour of the labour right wingers was utterly disgusting. Prefer to be in opposition than have a vaguely left PM. N0thing Corbyn proposed was outside of the european social democratic norm.
N0thing Corbyn proposed was outside of the european social democratic norm.
100%.
But it was presented by a slightly bumbling old man who had a history of appearing in photos with IRA and PLO men and who had a fling with Diane Abbott.
As own goals go, that is like blazing an attempted clearance into the top corner from 6 yards out. The kind of own goal that has the offending player's address book being brought into question.
Anyway. Forget all this Corbyn crap. He was never going to be PM and never will be.
How much more faux confrontational bullshit from Badenoch before the Reform-Tory coupling? It's like that bit in the Attenborough series where the snow leopards finally meet after exchanging pheromone messages over a period of months. The female makes a show of being fierce and baring her teeth. But a good rogering is obviously on the cards from the first second.
All Badenoch is good for is trying to make sure a future Tory leader is the senior partner (and thus leader) of the inevitable coalition of bigoted bastards. The alliance is a done deal - anything up to actually tying the knot is negotiating the price.
I'm 90% it will happen early enough for GE 2029 and about 52% convinced we'll end up with a Tory-Reform government.
<Insert vomiting emoji>
You’ve even managed to disagree with yourself, in the space a single post!
You will have to explain how you think I have done that. I have consistently said that the term centrist is a ridiculous term and that I only use it because it is a widely used by both the media and right-wingers themselves.
I couldn't give a monkeys what right-wingers call themselves. Their preferred term used to be "moderates" but that has fallen out of favour. I guess that when society is facing reoccurring chronic crises and people are crying out for urgent change the term moderate conjures up an image of someone who only wants to tinker with status quo and not do anything too radical.
The term radical moderate doesn't have the right ring about it but radical centrist possibly does.
Btw I also consider "the red wall" to be a nonsensical myth, there is no such thing. I only use the term because the media and centrists on here have decided that's how the want to describe traditional working-class Labour voters in the (previous) Labour heartlands.
and who had a fling with Diane Abbott.
Thank you.......that provides a perfect example of just how low centrists were prepared to stoop in their character assassination of the previous Labour Party leader.
Why on earth mention that when you are attempting to castigate Jeremy Corbyn? Why do have a problem with Corbyn allegedly having had a fling with Diane Abbott?
What is the problem with anyone having a fling with Diane Abbott and why should that impact their ability to be prime minister? Because you think she is ugly? Perhaps not clever enough for you? A lot of people also appear to have a problem with her because she is black, as one former Tory donor made clear a while back.
I suspect that the reason you have a problem with anyone having a fling with Diane Abbott fenderextender is that she is vilified by the likes of Daily Mail columnists. And you in turn see her as a vile person.
Corbyn's relationship with Abbott 40+ years ago is neither a plus nor a minus for his political record record. It is irrelevant and bringing it up is weird. (Also, although it was not a secret, I personally don't remember it being discussed publicly until after the elections. Maybe I'm not on the right Facebook groups).
Or reading the newspapers. It was a major topic of discussion by the mainstream media long before the elections. Which is why fenderextender brought it up.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/18/left-1970s-jeremy-corbyn-diane-abbott-sex
Threads like these tell the right things are going well for them overall
Thank you…….that provides a perfect example of just how low centrists were prepared to stoop in their character assassination of the previous Labour Party leader.
I'm pretty sure it wasn't centrists who made the most of that. Cheap shot populists like Johnson and his mates in the RW media did, though.
You're reinventing history if you assert that was the case. But blinkered people do all sorts of things to avoid acknowledging the truth.
There's nothing wrong with old Jezza doing the biz with whomever he wants. In my eyes, your eyes, or most people's eyes pre-2016. But, given the racist undertone exposed by the Brexit referendum, it was (just another) obvious attack line for the RW press.
In any case, I voted for Corbyn and Labour in 2019. I believed in both the man and the policies. I also knew he was shafted from the moment he became leader. What is difficult to understand about that?
Corbyn’s relationship with Abbott 40+ years ago is neither a plus nor a minus for his political record
Objectively correct.
It is irrelevant and bringing it up is
weirdobviously a smart move in a RW election campaign as she is black, female, a bogey figure for the right and also on the wane in terms of her perspicacity
FTFY. If you don't acknowledge that, you are either criminally naive or willfully ignoring electioneering tactics commonly employed AND the tone of British politics post-Brexit.
There's no point trying to point out the obvious to people who are willingly blind, though. I'm going to watch the darts instead.
You’re reinventing history if you assert that was the case.
I am not talking about history I am talking about today and you dragging up the usual right-wing shite about Corbyn being photographed with the IRA (I assume you mean Sinn Fein) and the PLO and having a “fling” with Diane Abbott. You also brought up Putin earlier. All baseless nonsense which undoubtedly damaged Labour in the red wall seats and was enthusiastically encouraged and fed by centrists such as Peter Mandelson who publicly boasted of undermining the Labour Party leader every single day.
You also brought up Putin earlier.
No I did not.
Get your facts straight before lashing out.
That's the problem with employing mental gymnastics to avoid acknowledging the truth - you lose track of what contortions you are having to pull with whom.
No I did not.
Quite right, apologies - I should have checked, it was politecameraaction who mentioned Putin when he also regurgitated the usual right-wing media inspired nonsense about Corbyn being a friend of terrorists.
And yes STW is like Centrist Grande Central so I do sometimes lose track.
I'm lovin the reference to "avoid acknowledging the truth" btw. It's a little beauty! 🙂
You also brought up Putin earlier.
Well, if we're doing forensic threadology about who brought up Corbyn and Putin on a thread about Badenoch:
ernielynch
Full Member
There is nothing made up. Centrists accused Corbyn of being a racist terrorist-loving extreme left-wing supporter of Putin, something which undoubtedly massively helped Boris Johnson win a landslide. Although it was of course a pack of lies.
?
Eh yes, I pointed out that centrists undoubtedly helped Boris Johnson in red wall seats by enthusiastically supporting the right-wing myth that Corbyn was a friend of terrorists and Putin. To which stumpy asked :
Which mythical centrist was that
And you replied :
Me, for a start. All those things are true.
I accused centrists of spreading nonsense about the Corbyn being matey with Putin and you responded by also bringing up Putin in your post and claiming it was true. So what's the problem, apart from me not checking and mistakenly thinking that it was fenderextender, something which I am perfectly happy to correct?
The idea that Labour leader was not significantly undermined from within his own party is frankly absurd, as is any suggestion that it had no negative consequences for Labour in the red wall seats.
It is one thing to call red wall voters stupid and gullible but it really takes the biscuit to call them stupid and gullible for accepting the nonsense which you helped to promote.
It's fine bemoaning the mess which has been created in what once the Labour heartlands but centrists should have thought about that when they helped the Tories and the right-wing press by undermining a Labour leader who was offering a genuine alternative.
And now you are clueless in how to deal with the growing surge from Reform UK, apart from placing your fingers in your ears and repeating very loudly that it's all because voters are stupid and racist.
Both the centre and the left are failing to provide solutions. The centre, due to not employing effective counters, the left (and anyone not right wing), by not garnering enough meaningful support to implement left wing/alternative ideas. Let alone whether those offerings would actually work.
Plato's Allegory of the cave sums it up well - the voters are in the cave having been fed lies (the shadows) for many years.
Not really sure how you break the pattern though as the populists are empathising the lies knowing that they will be further believed. Even when the populists are running things people do not realise they have been conned.
Ok - to move things along:
It has been touched on earlier. IN a FPTP election when you have 3 or more parties with a realistic chance of winning seats minor shifts in voting intentions can have huge shifts in seats one. In Scotland for Westminster elections we can see this and now its spread to england.
Reform have split the right wing vote which is why Labour have a big majority on such a small % of the vote. In the past this has worked for the tories ie sdp /lib dem surges mean more tory seats as the lib dems take most of their votes from labour. Labour get 35% of the vote with a split right wing vote means a huge majority. Labour get 40% of the vote without a split right wing do not get a majority at all
Now with the right wing vote being split by reform this effect is working against the Tories. this is a huge challenge for Badenoch. Her party is now caught between a centre right labour party who have moved into the political ground vacated by the tories as they move right and a hard right party that has taken the racist loon vote from the tories. so instead of operating in a political area that is fairly broad with no opposition in that area the tories are being condensed into an ever narrower part of the political spectrum.
I can see no way out of this trap for the tories. Pivoting further to the right just leaves more oom in the centre for the lib dems and labour. Moving back to the centre leaves m ore room for reform on the right
Badenoch does not have the political skills and knowledge to even understand what is happening let alone manage it
Not really sure how you break the pattern
The way to break the pattern is through a grassroots movement which is wholly democratic and connected to ordinary voters.
Something which the Labour Party once was and is now very far from being.
A prerequisite for that is a mass membership. Something which Nigel Farage seems to perhaps understand the strategic importance of, although he will obviously not allow it to be anything other than a one man show.
Currently the centrists who now control the Labour Party appear to be celebrating the fact that its membership is falling because they believe their relentless purge of dissent has been effective and presumably that wealthy donors will bankroll them.
And the power of the Labour leader is frankly grotesque. Annual Conference is a totally pointless and meaningless exercise because one man alone, in a party of half a million, gets to dictate what the final party policies are. Something which he can decide on the cuff in front of a television camera whilst being interviewed.
Conference is nothing more than a carefully choreographed farce for the TV cameras in which the delegates are expected to give a standing ovation to their leader as he stands on a stage waving with his adoring wife next to him - United States politics style.
Now with the right wing vote being split by reform this effect is working against the Tories.
No it is not. It is working against the Labour Party, not the Tories.
If there was a general election right now all the evidence is that Keir Starmer would be forced to resign and Kemi Badenoch would become prime minister in a Tory-Reform UK coalition government (or some other deal with Reform UK)
Never in UK history has the opposition won a general election five years after losing one in a landslide,. never mind 6 months later. So it would be quite something for Badenoch to become PM.
And she can in part thank Reform UK for that because they give voters another choice. For example the Tories have lost their credibility in the red wall seats so red wall voters would not vote Tory if there was a general election right now, but Nigel Farage has given them another alternative to Labour so they wouldn't need to vote for Labour again, as they did less than 6 months ago.
The way to break the pattern is through a grassroots movement which is wholly democratic and connected to ordinary voters.
Corbyn tried that, created a populist left wing movement, and failed, the right do populist so much better. And he got firmly beaten at the election by the political vacuum that is Johnson.
And now you are clueless in how to deal with the growing surge from Reform UK, apart from placing your fingers in your ears and repeating very loudly that it’s all because voters are stupid and racist.
Both (main) Parties will struggle. Reform are saying things that people want. Tory and Labour have been/ are in power, yet nothing changes, so the alternative is looking a better option.
And I totally agree that calling anyone stupid and racist is totally missing the point.
Saying we dont want immigration is not racist. Saying we should deport illegal immigrants is not stupid.
For the hard of thinking, these are not my thoughts, but how many people are feeling: -<irony> When you are struggling in life, why should your tax go toward paying for illegal immigrants who havent contributed anything to this Country? Thats how people are thinking, and it is the biggest point, it's front page of the newspapers and TV every week.
The main Parties are inept, Reform say they can do better, so why not give them a chance, it cant be any worse can it? </irony>
All Political Parties need to raise their game, by a lot, they are all currently seen as useless, Starmer has had a terrible 6 months, why on earth he thought taking £200 off pensioners is a good way of saving money is beyond most people, it didnt cost, in real terms, a great deal, but it was near political suicide, as his poll ratings dropped overnight. He hasnt done anything to improve matters since, and as for Rachel Reeve, its hard to like her, I saw a clip of her trying to justify one of her plans, where she just repeated that Business supported her, but would not name any business that would openly support her.
Getting back on topic, Badenoch is clearly another short term Tory Leader until someone with slightly more charisma comes along, probably May 2026 when Reform get a large proportion of Council election votes. So, according to some, the Tories are racist? I cant see that, they have elected a black lady, and before that an Asian descent man as their Leader. If they were racist, how did that happen?
Or, go for my line, all of them are useless, and they are not bothered about you or me. Once they are in power, they have their goal. Voting for anyone has had little change on my day to day life. Blairs Government gave me a slight boost in earnings when they brought in Tax Credits (and left a legacy of massive government debts), thats about the only thing I can recall that has affected me personally, but it has been mostly downhill with Governments of either Party. Socially, I think things have dropped considerably since 40 years ago, I suspect many other people feel the same way, hence Reform being considered as an alternative by many people, who are not stupid or racist.
I can see no way out of this trap for the tories.
I can. They merge with Reform. They retain much of the old 'comforting' symbolism, imagery and history of the Tories whilst becoming more radically right wing. In policy (present and future) they are Reform, in presentation (based on the past) they are 'reassuringly' Tory.
It is going to happen.
Not really sure how you break the pattern
Not having FPTP would be a start. Not a guarantee of perfection, but it would reduce some of what we've seen
Corbyn tried that, created a populist left wing movement, and failed,
He had to fight the Tories, the right-wing press, and most of the Parliamentary Labour Party. And yet despite that his worst general election result was only 2% less than Starmer managed to achieve in July. His best general election result was considerably more than Starmer managed with no opposition at all from the PLP.
Imagine what might have been achieved if the PLP had all rallied behind him. Instead of calling him an anti-semitic racist terrorist friendly extreme left-wing mate of Putin, and Peter Mandelson hadn't undermined every single day.
"Never in UK history has the opposition won a general election five years after losing one in a landslide,"
I suppose you're going to wriggle on the definition of landslide to explain the obvious example of 2019-2024.
The main Parties are inept, Reform say they can do better, so why not give them a chance
Because decency. But that's gone from the UK electorate in large part, unfortunately.
And, yes, I have cut the quote from alanl's post short to make it easier to make that point.
I’m 90% it will happen early enough for GE 2029 and about 52% convinced we’ll end up with a Tory-Reform government
TBH I think it’ll happen closer to the election when Nigel can get the best outcome for himself.
The next four years are going to be a building of the reform brand and Nigel just getting as much airtime as possible and of course who knows what’s going to happen with the Trump/Farage/Musk relationship.
It’s like Stingray ‘anything could happen on the next 1/2 hour’ opening.
He can easily fold Reform and just defect to the Tories for the top job.
Actually getting a working party with people to stand and people canvassing is hard work when you can just reverse takeover another that has all these parts working.
but Nigel Farage has given them another alternative to Labour so they wouldn’t need to vote for Labour again, as they did less than 6 months ago.
As you yourself have pointed out - they didn't vote labour. What actually happened was the right wing vote increased but was split letting labour in . In a 3 party system small movements in % of the vote gives rise to huge changes in the number of seats
Edit. if votes go from Tory to reform labour lose a lot of seats without any change in their vote. Labour losing a couple of % of their vote would also cause massive changes.
Badenochs dilemma is how to get those votes back from reform which is her only chance of a tory majority
He had to fight the Tories, the right-wing press, and most of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
Well duh, the first two are a given, the last one, isn't it a key part of the leaders job to keep the party together? It's always someone else's fault, that's the mantra of the far left (and right).
Anyway I'm still not sure about a Tory / Reform merge, Nige won't want the hassle or infighting and I think the Torys would chose political oblivion rather than shack up with Nige.
He can easily fold Reform and just defect to the Tories for the top job.
Won't happen. He's got 4 years of being the unofficial UK ambassador to the US. Trump will give him amazing profile. What will the UK government do if Trump does this? Withdraw our diplomats? I think not. A mealy-mouthed half protest whilst apologising for having the temerity to do so - will be the best we can manage.
The main Parties are inept, Reform say they can do better, so why not give them a chance
Hmmm not sure this is better, lots of removing peoples/workers rights and climate denial going on in their manifesto.
I suppose it’s about to not having to have fought for the rights people don’t value what they have.
Rights, Equality and Liberation
Leave the European Convention on Human Rights, reform the Human Rights Act
Replace the Equalities Act and scrap ‘Diversity, Equality and Inclusion’ rules
Change the definition of hate crime
Ban ‘transgender ideology’ in schools
Workers' Rights and Employment
Scrap employment laws that hold back businesses, including by making it easier to hire and fire workers.
Climate and Energy
Scrap goals to reach net zero carbon emissions
Stop giving money to companies that use and produce renewable energy
Fast-track licences of North Sea oil and gas
Fast-track clean nuclear energy
I think the Torys would chose political oblivion rather than shack up with Nige.
I think you fundamentally misunderstand what motivates most Tories - wealth acquisition, wealth protection. No seat at the table means less time at the trough.
Hmmm not sure this is better, lots of removing peoples/workers rights and climate denial going on in their manifesto.
The ill informed will think those things are good. Stupid climate change, DEI and transgender nonsense and so on. They have been told that all this is stuff we need to stop and they will believe it.
How do you get the ill informed to be informed and who is even trying?
Imagine what might have been achieved if the PLP had all rallied behind him. Instead of calling him an anti-semitic racist terrorist friendly extreme left-wing mate of Putin, and Peter Mandelson hadn’t undermined every single day.
Imagine what might have achieved if he hadn't been an anti-semitic, terrorist-friendly, fellow traveller of Putin.
He’s got 4 years of being the unofficial UK ambassador to the US. Trump will give him amazing profile.
This stuff about Farage being superinfluential in the US and a great mate of Trump's etc is nonsense. Farage says this, but no-one wants to hear him speak at CPAC, Trump didn't meet with him privately after the shooting etc. He's a wonky-toothed foghorn with a weird accent and poor public speaking skills - American righties don't want to hear from him. They have their own prettier, more persuasive, and more provocative people.
Anyway I’m still not sure about a Tory / Reform merge, Nige won’t want the hassle or infighting and I think the Torys would chose political oblivion rather than shack up with Nige.
I'm inclined to think this is right BUT in the old days the "machinery" of the Tory party (the HQ staff, the constituency volunteers etc) would have been a much bigger institutional brake on a party merger - rightly or wrongly. Now that that machinery doesn't exist, the constituency parties are all 102 years old, and rhe lesson from the US presidential election is that "the ground game doesn't matter", maybe that brake has gone.
And Farage wouldn't mind the long term destabilising effect that a merger would have on the Tory Party - he knows you can just set up a new party easily when you get bored or run out of money. How many parties have he (and George Galloway) been through so far?
The ill informed will think those things are good. Stupid climate change, DEI and transgender nonsense and so on. They have been told that all this is stuff we need to stop and they will believe it.
Spot on.
How do you get the ill informed to be informed and who is even trying?
Experts. And look how easily they are derided, discredited and dismissed as 'elitists'.
Blimey! This has escalated!
I think Corbyns main problem wasn’t that he was a terrorist sympathising, Putin-loving Marxist, it’s the fact that most people are fundamentally suspicious of beardy blokes on allotments, especially if they’ve vegetarians
What do they do in those sheds? Are they trying to manufacture ricin out of butter beans? Or are they smoking roll ups and drinking home brew, while perusing the readers wives section in their alarmingly large collection of vintage Razzle magazines?
Makes you think…
Makes you think…
Makes RW journalists think, for sure.
Corbyn was simply too easy to deride. The derision didn't even need to be consistent. It was unfair. It was UK politics. It was certainly UK politics post-2016.
Anyhow. Corbyn was never going to be PM. And he never will.
What odds on a Reform-Tory merger/alliance/coalition for GE 2029?
This country is now so completely mental, just about anything could have happened by 2029. We could be at war with France
What odds on a Reform-Tory merger/alliance/coalition for GE 2029?
Anything better than 1/1 and worth putting money on as sadly I can see this happening. Labour have already blown it so even if they improve things a bit it won't be enough to stop reverting to the right. People will also have forgotten the shit the tories got up to for 14 years and Badenoch won't be around either.
Imagine what might have achieved if he hadn’t been an anti-semitic, terrorist-friendly, fellow traveller of Putin.
And imagine if you didn't talk shite regurgitated from the Daily Mail, eh?
You must have been well chuffed that he never became PM.
Rights, Equality and Liberation
Leave the European Convention on Human Rights, reform the Human Rights Act
Replace the Equalities Act and scrap ‘Diversity, Equality and Inclusion’ rules
Change the definition of hate crime
Ban ‘transgender ideology’ in schools
I think many of those are popular policies with people. The usual examples are convicts released from prison who cannot be returned to their own country because of human rights. Popular opinion is send them back anyway.
Workers’ Rights and Employment
Scrap employment laws that hold back businesses, including by making it easier to hire and fire workers.
Employers sack people now anyway without much comeback to them when it is appealed. It isnt going to change much, the low paid worker always has a bad deal, so it wont affect them.
Climate and Energy
Scrap goals to reach net zero carbon emissions
Stop giving money to companies that use and produce renewable energy
Fast-track licences of North Sea oil and gas
Fast-track clean nuclear energy
All uncontroversial policies for many. When China are building coal fired stations still, why should we bother, when it costs us more to not use coal, and our contribution to emissions is tiny by global standards. We will still be using oil for at least the next 50 years, why shackle our own resources, which we will still need to import from the Middle East, when we could have it locally sourced?
Why not have local nuclear stations? RR are ready for it, but the Government are not encouraging them by providing land or areas to test it.
This is what the other Parties cannot compete with. They wont say anything even slightly controversial, so they are defending themselves against Reform, when it would be quite easy to say . “Yes, Reforms ideas on this could be the basis of a better solution for the Country”. But they wont, they’ll plod on, and deny that Reform, or other Parties, are a threat, and more people will lose interest in their policies, and Reform will get more publicity.
How do you get the ill informed to be informed and who is even trying?
Nige is doing his bit,being on Tik-tok 🙂
IMHO it’s an impossible task, people don’t care about truth now, you need another charismatic leader on the Labour side to come up with better Unicorns.
They need to sell their dream harder than Nige and talk up the country rather than Fiscal black holes and granny freezing.
Actually build the 40 Hospitals.
What are the odds of Reform still existing in 2026 and Farage being its head? Has he ever invested a solid 4 years in any project? Can he hold down a relationship with anyone inside the part for that long?
most people are fundamentally suspicious of beardy blokes on allotments, especially if they’ve vegetarians
Has the allegation that Corbyn has an allotment ever been proven?
What are the odds of Reform still existing in 2026 and Farage being its head? Has he ever invested a solid 4 years in any project? Can he hold down a relationship with anyone inside the part for that long?
TBH he did spend 20 years as an MEP 🙂