[Closed] Moral / ethical dillemma - homeless chap

I'd give be him a meal, a brew and a sleeping bag. I may be being harsh but I'd not be letting him, or any other stranger into a flat I own.

I too open myself to abuse for that comment.

and before you start - this is not a troll or an attempt to make me look good.

It's quite simple, do what you want to do. You know that though, don't you.

As far as trolling is concerned, you're a bit obvious. 🙂

Hoof him in the slats.

Obviously.

Sorry. Forgot this..... 😉

Try fostering first.

Adoption is a lifetime commitment.

I'd give him the waterproofs and a sleeping bag - help him out, but not an ongoing commitment.

That's if he does want help, of course.

If he goes into the flat then at some stage he'll have to leave and you'll feel guilty that you've got to ask him to go.

Offering him waterproofs would be good as he'll welcome them now and if he's ever homeless again.

If you still feel guilty about him then you could offer to pay for a hotel for him until Monday.

It's a difficult call.

Good point - there is a bunkhouse / independent youth hostel place round the corner

the flat would only be one night - I can be hard when I want to be but I don't want him in it at all really. Just seems so selfish!

I've gave away a sleeping bag and a survival bag before. I was walking through Glasgow coming back from a trip late at night and gave it to someone in a similar situation along with a couple packets of food I had left. It was well received. Letting someone into your flat has associated risks - what if he was Dirty Mike and he brought the boys round?

I Always try to look at with the view that I would rather get f&&ed over now and again than live in fear of it
So I would say give him the flat floor if you feel it's the thing to do

Good for you. Even the smallest thing will be a big deal for him.
I would think that letting him stay in the flat would be going too far as mentioned above, at sometime he will have to leave and that will be difficult.

Well done Tj, everyone needs a lift sometime in their life....

Does he know good spots to hole up in? Got any spare clothes and a bivi bag or tarp... Get hot food through the weekend for him... Friend with a lock up or garage?

Re your flat, unsure...your call. Would he play ball overnight and be on the street during the day?

Buying a hot meal is the recommended thing to do. People are homeless for lots of reasons so I'd say you're doing way more than most if you give him food and clothing/sleeping gear.

The only thing to bear in mind is if you do let him user the flat are you opening yourself to store lengthy eviction process if for some reason he decides be doesn't want to leave.

Hate to be cold about these things and it may be just dandy but it has the potential to go a bit pear shaped.

We used to have a Lobby dosser when we lived in a flat. He was a nice lad, just didn't cope too well with life and never had a start. We couldn't do much to help beyond a bit of food, company and making his time there as comfortable as possible.
You can only do what you can.

It is far better to support the charities and organisations that are actually experts in helping the homeless rather than providing them with temporary, but well meaning, relief for their cirucumstances. You might be unwittingly perpetuating the chaps situation rather than actually helping it. If these organisations had he resources they need then there is no reason for any homeless person to go without a bed or meal, and they will get access to a whole more help beyond their immediate needs for a meal and a bed. If you know an alcoholic and pity their situation the last thing you do is buy them a pint.

Ta for your thoughts chaps - this place is better for this sort of thing than facebook which can be an echo chamber. watching the rugby and having my tea now - I'll pop out at halftime with a sleeping bag

Ta

He was away when I popped out. so middle class angst assuaged without actually giving my old sleeping bag away which I would have been sad about

Phew - narrow escape 😉

As far as trolling is concerned, you're a bit obvious.

I was never about in the original TJ years, based on this and blatant trolling elswhere was it really such a basic level in the past?

Good on you TJ

I never used to give people money. But there seem to be so many these days that I can only assume it's our systematic failure that's pushed more people onto the street. I don't go into Manchester that often so a big shift over the last year is noticeable - and it's really really shifted. I ran all the 'it's better to support homelessness charities' 'you'd only be funding drugs' arguments through my head and in the end came to the conclusion that I didn't really care.

Sticking a few quid into someone's battered paper cup was a gesture of solidarity and a tiny one at that. I feel mortified that we have so little support at the margins and yes, I should do something more but I didn't vote for this and I really don't know how to fix it apart from getting shot of this government.

Kryton - I can assure you this is not a troll at all but a genuine desire to sort out my thoughts on this because on here I can trust I will be given different sides of the debate and people will pull no punches.

which indeed is more or less what happened. And I thank the STW lot for doing so

The poppy thread was unwise and done without thinking - and I apologised several times for starting it.

Actually TJ, based purely on your posts - you would be one of the people I think would do exactly what's best. Many people would not care enough to even think about the options and try and make one happen as you did.

I think that the flat may be a commitment too far. The offer of a decent sleeping bag and waterproofs however is a very thoughtful gesture. A decent brew and maybe a meal from the chippy would probably do down well too.

I was never about in the original TJ years, based on this and blatant trolling elswhere was it really such a basic level in the past?

I was around then and despite being one of those who has had some differences of opinion with TJ in certain areas back in the day I have never regarded him as a troll.

This thread didn't even have a whiff of troll to me. From what I can recall of TJ's attitude to those at the less fortunate end of the scale asking that kind of question would be quite in character.

"( he has a hostel place from Monday)"

Don't let him in your flat. Give him £50, that should give him enough cash for a couple of visits to a chippy and enough Costa coffees to keep him warm and dry all day.

I thought there was a guarantee that nobody sleeps rough for more than one night so, if that's true, he should have a Hostel Place by tomorrow.

outofbreath - not that I have ever heard of. We have many rough sleepers in Edinburgh every night. simply not enough hostel places available.

You sound like one of life's good guys to me, TJagain.
I've often thought how I'd respond in such a situation. When I was a student, I once had a tap on the door of our city centre student house by a very dishevelled guy (tramp?) asking to use the toilet (he smelled as if it was only to finish a job that he'd already started). My first instinct was suspicion but he looked genuine so I let him in and walked him to the toilet (and waited outside in case his motive was to pinch something). He thanked me and left but it was a lousy night outside and I'll admit to feeling uneasy at sering him go back out into the rain. Typical student house with friends and friends of friends crashing out all the time. Housemates gave me stick about it because they thought he was casing the joint but nothing further came of it.
I'd certainly buy a hot drink & meal. I wouldn't let him into the flat but if I was genuinely worried, I'd drop him to local Salvation Army or Wallich. If neither of those an option and extreme situation (frail or extreme weather) then consider B&B, but have passed many homeless people and never done that, I must say.
It's surprisingly easy to find yourself homeless by all accounts. Probably better in the long term to look at voluntary work for the homeless if you want to make an impact. Good on you, I say.

When i was dating Mrs K, we over orrdered at china town, and i gave the resulting doggie bag to a tramp in Charing Cross station. He threw it back at me with a bunch of vitriol.

They're not all good, or real.

This stuff is difficult. Some folks are genuine and are stuck on the streets, some come in from outside and are just looking for cash (I know as I used to help in one of the centres and talked to them regularly). The problem is you can't always tell but it's always worth helping anyway to catch the one person who is just stuck and needs a bit of help. I knew one person who would buy spare gloves and hats in shops just so they could give them out when they saw someone that needed them, and another girl who would take them into shops so they could find what they needed. It's a situation that seems to be getting worse so well done to all that help in any way

I have worked in the housing/homelessness sector for over 10 years.
I would say go with your gut instinct.
There are many homeless people- some are more naive and desperate than others.
If you have the means to assist someone without excessive impact on your own life, then wouldn't that be a good thing?

If I pass someone who looks like they need some help and I have cash - I always give it or buy them food/hot drinks. Whether they are genuinely in need or how they will spend it doesn't trouble me. I always think it's better to give the benefit of the doubt, to give what you can and know you have done 'something'.

I thought there was a guarantee that nobody sleeps rough for more than one night

I know there are requirements for the local authority to provide care and attempt to find accommodation but it is quite complicated (England, Wales and Scotland all have differing legislation) and depends on someone's circumstances in becoming homeless (as well as their 'priority' in England). There is additional provision of shelter under the Severe Weather Emergency Protocol but it obviously isn't cold enough for that yet.

A lot of the 'it's better to support homelessness charities' emphasis is to do with the costs associated with providing support to someone who is already homeless versus preventing homelessness in the first place. There are a number of studies now that demonstrate this ([url= http://www.crisis.org.uk/data/files/publications/CostsofHomelessness_Finalweb.pdf ]crisis report[/url] and references therein). So in an ideal world where there was enough money to do it, the local authorities and/or charities would be more 'efficient' with your money to keep people out of homelessness in the first place. It is very dependent on individual circumstances, but it is estimated that preventing 40,000 people from becoming homeless could save £370 million a year in the additional support costs once someone becomes homeless. Basically, investing in prevention services is the most efficient way of helping the greatest number of people.

You have to question the morals of English people buying several properties in Scotland - pushing up prices, reducing available housing etc - when local resident cannae afford a home of their own and end up on the streets. Bloody middle class, green Tory Sassenachs messing it up for the rest. 😉

He threw it back at me with a bunch of vitriol.

Did he get pudding?

This thread didn't even have a whiff of troll to me. From what I can recall of TJ's attitude to those at the less fortunate end of the scale asking that kind of question would be quite in character.

In which case I retract my jibe and apologise to TJ for the slight.

No worries Kryton. NOt offended at all.

Why is teamhurtmore on my thread? He knows I do not read his posts. I would bet its another sneering personal attack.

TJ - best advice I can give would be to contact st. mungo's, who will take all the details and try and connect with him.

They even have an online referral form:

http://streetlink.org.uk

Ta Ninfan

Ruddy freezing today - I'll see if he is around.

Good on you TJ. Keep us informed, It'll be interesting to see how things turn out for him.

You see a lot of homeless people in London, I was never sure if the best thing to do, so I set up a direct debit with Shelter. I've spent a Christmas volunteering for Crisis too, I'd really recommend it, it's a real eye opener and you get a chance to another side of those whose lives have taken a few turns that are not quite as fortunate as ourselves

How about spending 10 mins on the web and find him a cheapo travellodge / premier inn room .
Now, I am not a homeless person , never have been, but if I was in that particular situation a hot bath , clean sheets and somewhere to wash and dry my kit out would be a dream. Just give him the room key and address.
Better than cash which may be converted to booze/drugs

Or if abit spendy then grab a portion of fish and chips and a brew?

Nice gesture with the sleeping bag though.

Why is teamhurtmore on my thread? He knows I do not read his posts.

Excuse me, I didn't realise that threads were by invitation only. My mistake. As you were.

Found the chap again today and had a chat with him. He got into a hostel nearby friday / sat and for tonight as well and has something slightly more permanent hopefully from monday so didn't end up on the streets on the cold miserable night.

Fair play to you for giving a shit.

Poor show THM, you lose this one.

A happy ending to bring a smile to my face, thanks for that TJ 🙂

*dons flak jacket*

I thought I would reopen this thread as once again my middleclass angst and judgemental nature is causing me to have doubts

The original chap is long since gone. That begging spot is now taken by another bloke who is really rather less than prepossessing in appearance ( judgement number one) after ignoring him for a while I have once again taken to sometimes asking if he is hungry and offering to buy him food. He usually asks for a posh yoghurt! I really don't know what to make of that at all. He seems to do fairly well tho often having sandwiches or even cans of beer beside him. ( judgement 2 - the undeserving poor?)

He now recognises me and says hello and seemingly accepts that some days I will offer him food and others that I won't.

today he outright said " could I give him 2 pounds instead" I told him "I don't usually give money but have you got a good story". He needed £2 to get chicken pakora from the chippy for his dinner ( peasant - it was lunchtime) He had an empty cider bottle beside him. I laughed and gave him the £2 and he had gone by the time I came out of the shop so it does look like he needed the £2 for something specific. Why do I even doubt he wanted to buy a hot meal?

So - he had obviously had some alcohol that day - if he hadn't then he would have had the money the cider cost so could have had his pakora from the chippy. Was I just conned or a soft touch? Should I really be making judgements on what he wants food wise ie posh yoghurts ( cheaper than a sandwhich) or begging for money when he has clearly had alcohol? Why is it easier to give to someone with a nice smile rather than someone with a mouthful of broken and rotted teeth?

Just see them as a person and then go from there; teeth or no teeth doesn't make them a different person.I volunteer in the homeless sector and would never give money - coffee, bigmac etc yes; the consensus of homeless charities, councils and others is that money is typically used to support an existing dependancy - alcohol, drugs, gambling. That's based on their extensive experience and research.

Anytime I have offered hot drink or some food and the response has been '.....can I have the money instead' I have declined and walked-on.

Easy, but probably wrong, to be judgemental if a street beggar has been on the sauce and then asks you for money; take booze out of the thought process - if you were going to offer hot drink etc, still do it.
If 'posh' yoghurt is available from nearby shop - why not?

If you're concerned about this guy you could contact the local outreach team - probably best done through a homeless charity.

Frank - I agree their appearance does not make a difference objectively but its somehow much easier to give to someone who is not unkempt / has a nice smile. I just find that interesting and sort of wondered if others find the same?

Maybe we see a smiley face as 'more warm or less threatening' than a scowl or a mouthful of broken
or rotten teeth and that influences how we act?
Interesting question to ask.

Frank - I agree their appearance does not make a difference objectively but its somehow much easier to give to someone who is not unkempt / has a nice smile. I just find that interesting and sort of wondered if others find the same?

That is just human nature. Takes a big effort to overcome it (more than I have ever managed).

I have bought beggars food in winter but generally ignore them and donate to homeless charities to placate my middle class angst.

I've been criticised by people for giving money to street homeless people before because "they'll spend it on drugs / booze"

I've given money to homeless people before and I'm sure some of them have spent it on booze or drugs. Why should I object - it's their money now? If I didn't want them spending it how they decided, then I shouldn't have given them it. Once I gave them it, it stopped being my money and became their money and I had no more rights to dictate what it was used for.

For some people (I'm not saying you TJ, far from it) there seems to be a patrician, kinda Victorian attitude to charity that boils down to I am the giver, I have the power. And the beneficiaries, because they are beneficiaries, have no say, and no rights.

If I give someone a couple of quid, I don't own them, they are still free human beings with the right to make their own choices, even if they are choices that I don't think are the best ones, or aren't ones I'd prefer them to make. I can choose to give them a couple of quid (or not), they can choose to spend it on cider (or not).

The answer is obvious.

You should front up for a haircut and some cosmetic dental work for the guy.

That'll increase his earning potential exponentially.

Should I really be making judgements on what he wants food wise ie posh yoghurts ( cheaper than a sandwhich) or begging for money when he has clearly had alcohol?

people who are smashing the booze in can often find it difficult to keep down solid food, hence the splendid sales of Nurishment et al in certain areas. But if someone else is paying, a posh yoghurt sounds like quite a nice alternative!

I think the 'unkempt' thing is they're less 'relatable'. The grizzled old tramp is an archetype that we can categorise and ignore. The younger and more articulate person jolts us IMO. On my commute home there have been a couple of young prostitutes recently on one street, both fresh-faced and early 20's at most. It's somehow more saddening than the old-timers you normally see, even though there's no sensible reason for that 😐

I've given money to homeless people before and I'm sure some of them have spent it on booze or drugs. Why should I object - it's their money now? If I didn't want them spending it how they decided, then I shouldn't have given them it. Once I gave them it, it stopped being my money and became their money and I had no more rights to dictate what it was used for.

agreed. On the one hand, often you're enabling an addiction. On the other, you might be enabling them to get through the next few hours without terrifying withdrawal symptoms...

I've been criticised by people for giving money to street homeless people before because "they'll spend it on drugs / booze"

For some people (I'm not saying you TJ, far from it) there seems to be a patrician, kinda Victorian attitude to charity that boils down to I am the giver, I have the power. And the beneficiaries, because they are beneficiaries, have no say, and no rights.

Good point. I suspect thats a good part of it in my response as well as others. I would rather buy him some good food than anything else. Food for thought.

I thought I would reopen this thread as [s]once again my middleclass angst and judgemental nature is causing me to have doubts[/s] as I've not virtue-signaled for days

FIFY 😉

They might spend it on booze, they might not. But you have given them the choice.

If you see someone with booze - they might've been given it. Certainly fags are often donated.

Re food vs money - it might be a supply consistency issue. If they've already been bought as much as they can eat that day, then money would help them buy food tomorrow. Or, if they usually get enough food, they might be saving up for a new pair of shoes or sleeping bag or something.

What edlong said ^^

I give money.
I used to be annoyed/guilty that it made me feel good about myself, as it made it feel like that was the primary driver.
Now I realise that it doesn't matter, they're happier, you're happier, win win.

Get him in your spare flat and pimp him out.

council of ten. virtue signalling or not I am really interested in unpicking why I make the responses I do in these situations and STW is [i]very[/i] good at puncturing pretensions and pulling no punches. for example in edlongs post above ( although very gently put). That certainly makes me question my motives in giving food rather than cash and inpicking and choosing the times I do so. Also interested in the deserving and undeserving poor part of it and my reactions to this - the previous chap did not appear to be a drinker. This one is. I have perhaps treated him as less deserving because of the way he sometimes has booze with him

I occasionally give cash I sure as hell know that if I'm homeless on the streets of this country I would want to be off my face on something and don't begrudge them the relief. If I know the person I do tend to ask where the cash is going and make a judgement call as to cash or sandwich or advise.

My more responsible self donates when prompted to our local shelter.
As to grooming the scruffier more decrepit are more likely to need immediate help than the healthy well presented.

I have no problem with people donating for their own selfish means - to assuage their own guilt or make themselves feel better about their own good fortune for example. But bragging about it on Facebook or forums in order to harvest likes or virtual backslapping just strikes me as a bit crass.

I sure as hell know that if I'm homeless on the streets of this country I would want to be off my face on something and don't begrudge them the relief.

That's my outlook also. There are plenty of affluent middle-class folk who self-medicate with alcohol or other drugs to 'make the pain go away' or otherwise even just chill out after a hard day at the office. If I'd had a hard day sat on the concrete outside Poundland trying not to die of hypothermia I'd probably relish the notion of a couple of pints myself.

Answer to this is 'Well why shouldn't they, that's what I was going to spend it on anyway.'

I recommend the comedy stylings of Steve Hughes.

Bragging? Ooof, harsh!

I don't think it matters how you choose to help someone, it really is the thought that counts in these situations.

Do what you feel is best. Money, hot drink, food or nothing. I always try the food or drink approach, mainly because I rarely carry cash. These homeless should really get contactless.

I can see why this could be seen as bragging but I can only repeat its about knowing stw will give me straight answers ( of which that is one) and I am genuinely not sure if others act from the same or similar motives and are my responses appropriate and certainly one or two posts have given me something to think about

I just wonder if they could hook me up with a pigeon or two.

I can see why this could be seen as bragging

Possibly the most "text book" example of virtue signaling humble-brag I've ever seen. In fact, I'm going to see if "humble brag" has an entry on Wikipedia that I can hyperlink to this thread...

Why is it that people who bang on about " virtue signalling " are never the people you want to bump into in real life ?

because they don't believe in altruism?

It's always food and tea,coffee with me my friend will buy them beer as he says it's better to be drunk if your sleeping rough and he is not a social worker ect.
I can see both sides of the argument. Seeing people bunk down at night in brum in doorways makes me think how easy it is to end up homeless and it's a long way back

Why is it that people who bang on about " virtue signalling " are never the people you want to bump into in real life ?

Because they're generally very selfish and unpleasant individuals.

because they don't believe in altruism?

I don't really believe in altruism. Kind acts are done to make the person doing the giving feel better. I give to these folk because I can't bear the thought of people going hungry partly 'cos I have been there. The thought of someone being cold wet and hungry while I am warm and well fed makes me unhappy

I'll be honest it makes me feel good and that may be while I do it . End result is the same I guess

I really can't be arsed finding out why this thread has come up again.

Suffice to say, well done to tjagain for having some humanity.

As a bit of a pisshead myself and tendencies towards self-destruction, I applaud anyone who helps out those who help others - we're all only a short way from a sleeping bag on the street.

Well done tj, a good piece of proper behaviour, ignore those trying to make it into something else...