[Closed] Moon landing conspiracy theorists and science educational attainment.

Do you know ANYONE that believes we haven't been to, and left stuff on, the moon?

Unfortunately yes! Aged well off relatives, he also an accountant and hairdresser wife. And numerous others skool friends on FB. workmates plenty. It is frightening.

So, they think aliens left the retroreflectors there?

I am a bit like that with religion, i believe religion was often there to explain what science could not, if you saw a meteorite or eclipse, without knowing what it was, religion helped explain these things. I feel that they are inversely proportional so as scientific knowledge increases, the need for religion decreases.

Then you often find those that don't believe scientific findings or reality such as the moon landings often are the most religious such as bible-belt America?

There have been many credible witness to moon landings.

Wallace.

Grommit.

Tiny Clanger.

Mooncat.

Mr Spoon.

Need I go on?

Science and religion can quite happily coexist in one head… but only if the owner of said head is happy to accept that old teachings can be shown to be wrong. Religion that can't have its teachings questioned, and updated, is anti-Science. Mind you, if you think scientific teachings can't also be questioned, and updated, then  that is clearly anti-Science as well.

I am a bit like that with religion, i believe religion was often there to explain what science could not, if you saw a meteorite or eclipse, without knowing what it was, religion helped explain these things. I feel that they are inversely proportional so as scientific knowledge increases, the need for religion decreases.

Then you often find those that don’t believe scientific findings or reality such as the moon landings often are the most religious such as bible-belt America?

This exactly ^^^

Now, flat earthers, they are all, as thick as pig shit. I mean really, a basic education is all you need to know the earth is round. That, or just going on holiday.

I think the premise of the op is false. Lots of educated people believe in all sorts of idiotic conspiracy theories. Climate change denial is a case in point.

<p>Or Twin Towers, or flat earth or anything else...</p>

What's JHJ's level of education?

Science and religion can quite happily coexist in one head… but only if you’re happy to accept that old teachings can be shown to be wrong.

In the same way that fact and fiction can exist in a library.

With regard to the retro reflectors the argument goes like this:

NASA baddies discovered that the moon had zones of very high reflectivity some time in the 60's, and used this knowledge to fake the existence of retro reflectors. Is there any proof those zones were not highly reflective before we "left" them there?

I wouldn’t be surprised if there were many professionals that don’t believe the moon landings happened.  My colleague believes that Obama’s birth certificate was fake, climate change is fake and the Nazis were actually a left wing political party.  That’s a Chemical engineer with about 30 years of work experience and an otherwise very intelligent man.  All the result of confirmation bias if you ask mE.

Edit:  then there is the World Trade Center 7 conspiracy that he also believes.

Lots of educated people believe in all sorts of idiotic conspiracy theories. Climate change denial is a case in point.

Lots, does not mean significant numbers. Eg 99% of climate scientists believe in climate change, only 1 % do not. ergo the higher your level of climate edumacation, the more likely you are to believe in climate science.
I am sure there are some astrophysicists that do not believe the moon landings were real, but the vast majority of them do.

Excellent.

In the same way that fact and fiction can exist in a library.

Religion was created not as an alternative view to science but as a method of controlling large populations of uneducated and illiterate peasants before the rule of law and police and social structure was created. Peasants who had too much time on their hands and spent most of their time starving, freezing, dying of horrible desieses and basically living pretty miserable lives. Nothing like putting the fear of the bogey man (god) up them to make sure they don’t rise up agains their landlords and bishops who were lording it up feasting on banquets of meat and wine warmed by roaring log fires. And nothing like confession to make sure the bishops knew what the peasants were upto and more importantly thinking - what a master stroke, and thow in the odd witch trial to keep the womenfolk in check.

When societies began to form and people lived under a rule of law and no longer needed the church for moral guidance, in order so survive religion needed a new nemesis to get the people all riled up against, and the emergence of science provided just that.

i’d love the flat earthers to explain how it is a shorter distance for an aircraft flying from London to New York to fly north and arch over Scotland, Iceland and approach NY from the NE instead of flying west direct in a straight line, just as i’d love for moon landing deniers to explain how NASa was able to keep 8 missions Secret with all the many thousands of people who would have to be involved a secret all these years when the President can’t even keep a liaison with a porn star secret.

yep, I know a woman educated to Doctorate level who firmly believes the Moon landings were faked. She doesn't, however, believe the earth is flat or the Twin towers was an inside job, but Moon landings as far as she's concerned happened in a Hollywood studio.

a few of us had a semi drunken argument with her once after a boozy lunch, it got heated-ish, until we backed down as it just wasn't worth perusing. It's really odd to have a discussion like that (face to face) with some-one who is outwardly intelligent and holds down a successful teaching career at a Russell Group University. (her course is arts based, so goes nowhere near the subject you'll all be no doubt relived to hear)

Religion was created not as an alternative view to science but as a method of controlling large populations...etc etc

whilst I'm the least religious person in any room, to be fair, this is bollards.

So she doesn't meet my criteria then? Not a real scientist?

educated to Doctorate level .....her course is arts based

Thing is I don't thing anyone said this - religion was science, and many enlightenment scientists came from religion anyway.

Religion was created not as an alternative view to science

sure...But the research elements to any doctorate are reasonably equivalent. ie, you need both analytical, critical thinking skills etc etc...

I fully believe that man has landed on (and returned from) the moon.

I also find it entirely feasible that footage of moon landings may have been faked due to political pressure for the mission not to fail.

sure…But the research elements to any doctorate are reasonably equivalent. ie, you need both analytical, critical thinking skills etc etc…

I totally disagree with this hence my theory requiring science education. Arts and social "science" require no understanding of logic and proof, they do logic, but many don't get it.
When you argue with any social "scientists" who are conspiracy theorists about moonlandings/911/anything  they always resort to postmodernism as a get out clause.

I've joined in a similar discussion on here before ..and got slated .

I don't have the required level of intelligence to be able to disprove anything ..but I remember watching this on tv in 1969 as a 12 year old boy while on a family holiday in the Lake District and it just struck me back then that the whole thing looked false ..but that's just it ..an ingrained feeling with no facts to back it up other than the level of technology back then doesn't  lead me to believe we had enough to land on let alone  put a man on another planet ..but that's just me and having heard arguments for and against ..I doubt anyone will change my mind ...sorry !

Oh ..on the other side of the fence I do truly believe that there is life on other planets somewhere out there ..

I am not going to slate you nor make any assumptions about your intelligence, science education attainment only partially depends on intelligence level and I am sure you are much smarter than you claim to be/think you are. So my only answer to this is how can you not believe in something if you don't understand it? Why not educate yourself with some physics and then see how you feel about it?

In an effort to drag this thread away from descending in to another name calling religion one,

I think there is a huge difference between believing that no one has ever been to the moon, flat earther etc etc and people who believe the first USA moon landing was faked. My, fairly loose, understanding of the theory of the latter is that it's more a political thing. That is that the USA desperately needed to get the first man on the moon to prove supremacy over the USSR in the space race. However, the USSR had comfortably beaten the USA to every significant milestone in space exploration, and continued to do so after the first moon landing. Using that as a starting point people began to 'see' inconsistencies in the narrative of the first USA landing.

I think most people with that view believe that space travel has happened and that lots of people have been on the moon, but that the first man on the moon was faked.

That might all be complete nonsense of course.

If the moon landings were faked in hollywood, the film crew would have had to have been massive. So are people trying to say, that with all the cocaine and alcohol consumed in the last fifty years, no one blabbed? Not a single one of hundreds of people, got shit faced and bragged? Come on.

5plusn8

I would never say never ..and maybe I will one day..but it is not really a priority at the moment ..

Nice reply though ..thanks

Arts and social “science” require no understanding of logic and proof

Don't know where you got that idea from. How do you propose writing any thesis with conclusions without basing it on logical and critical thinking, proof and research? I mean, even if your trying to write a theory on Gothic literature, you still have to "prove" it, you still need to research and document your findings...It's the same skill set.

I think there is a link between not believing in the moon landings and level of science education

I think there is a link between not believing in the moon landings and being an utter cretin.

All other things aside, if the US had faked the moon landings then the USSR would've been all over them like a tramp on chips.  I can - with a considerable suspension of disbelief - just about entertain the notion that NASA might fooled the US public back in 1969.  But to not be subsequently exposed by any other nation in the succeeding half century?  No way in hell.

I am a bit like that with religion, i believe religion was often there to explain what science could not, if you saw a meteorite or eclipse, without knowing what it was, religion helped explain these things. I feel that they are inversely proportional so as scientific knowledge increases, the need for religion decreases.

Then you often find those that don’t believe scientific findings or reality such as the moon landings often are the most religious such as bible-belt America?

I'm  sure if that's true. Or if its anything more that a coincidental overlap. I.e. the bible belt doubts the moon landings because that's what people around them do, just like they believe in god for the same reason.

I know a lot of scientists and engineers who are practicing religious, not just a bit of iconographic jewelry and a tickbox on a form. Proper church/mosque/temple/synagogue going people.

I'm not religious personally, but I've no problem with peoples assertion that physics still doesn't really adequately explain how the universe started.

If anything its the other way around, its those with a little scientific knowledge that jump up and down shouting "but science" whenever religion is mentioned.

Nickc, what you say makes total sense, but I challenge you to read a PHD written by, or argue with one, who is a conspiracy theorist and not realise they have no idea what logic or proof is.

Religion was created not as an alternative view to science but as a method of controlling large populations…etc etc

whilst I’m the least religious person in any room, to be fair, this is bollards

I'm sure that "god(s)" was initially imagined/invoked to provide comfort to people terrified of or even just mystified by the unknown stuff in their experience but I do believe that organised religion was at the very least hijacked to become exactly this and may well have developed with that in mind

Sure, but even the most intelligent are not immune from cognitive dissonance. Plus "conspiracy theorist" is also a very loaded term, many people who identify as "not believing the moon landing happened" would baulk at the idea that they are conspiracy theorists, they would suggest that they haven't been persuaded by what evidence there is. Or like Hodgynd up there; "have a bad feeling about it"

If anything its the other way around, its those with a little scientific knowledge that jump up and down shouting “but science” whenever religion is mentioned.

I think that is true, but then religion can't answer it either. At least science is able to answer most things and seems an awful lot closer to the truth. EG we can test it. You can't test religion as it is not falsifiable.

nickc, I don't disagree with that, I am still however happy to assert that many non science PHD's do not require proper rigorous thought.  I would ask what experience you have with reading and understanding them or are you working on the assumption that you just cannot get a PHD unless you are scientific and rigorous? Because my friend that is utterly false. I hate to be the one to disabuse you of this fallacy but in post modernism you can say what you like..
Most famous example I can think of is Judy Wilyman.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Wilyman_PhD_controversy

The excuse given boils down to the fact her PHD is a social science PHD so she deserves to get it, despite the fact that it is demonstrably not true. It is a "cultural study", which she and her supervisors are using as an excuse that a PHD makes her work scientifically valid.

I'm not sure it is necessarily science education that is important, it's the ability to think critically, and having the self confidence to constructively challenge what other people tell you, and to be challenged in return, without covering your ears and shouting "La, la, la"

A lot of conspiracy theory is about making the theorist feel special, because they are privy to special knowledge that all the other "sheeple" just can't see. There have been a couple of stories in the Guardian about flat earthers recently, and a recurring theme was that many of them had become believers in the aftermath of difficult personal experiences. Uncovering the "truth" about the earth gave them some focus, a community, and a feeling of being in control of something.

https://www.theguardian.com/global/2018/may/27/is-the-earth-pancake-flat-among-the-flat-earthers-conspiracy-theories-fake-news

https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2018/may/02/the-universe-is-an-egg-and-the-moon-isnt-real-notes-from-a-flat-earth-conference

Nesbitt shared what he called the “Flat Earth Addiction” test – seven questions Flat Earth proponents should ask themselves, including “Have people said that you are pushy or obsessive about Flat Earth?”, “Have you thought that if only everyone knew about Flat Earth the world would be a different place?”, and “Have you noticed that you spend less and less time with your family and friends and more and more time talking to Flat Earthers?”.

Looking around the room, I could see knowing nods, as people recognised themselves in each question. The questions, Nesbitt explained, were taken from a checklist used to determine whether someone is in a cult. The implication seemed lost on the audience.

I've never met anybody with a basic knowledge of Latin who believed that the earth is flat. Bring back Latin, I say, and to hell with those flat-earthers.

I think part of the problem with the moon landings, is that  nowadays it would not be acceptable to take the risks that they did, The World was a completely different place.

Although I can sort of see where it all "looks a bit fake" comes from, it does, the fact is, that there would of been hundreds of people involved and that could not be kept secret.

Also, there was lots of awesome tech and engineering around in that era, some of which was pretty incredible and still is today. SR71 and Concorde spring to mind. Unless people don't think they were real either?

5plus8, I take it you've a science based phd?  🙂

I think there's probs many phd been awarded that shouldn't have been, both science and arts alike.

No but I have lots of experience proof reading science and social science PHDs, and I have an interest that's all. As I said I am an accountant, if you told me you have been looking at science and  social science phds and methodology regardless of your qualifications then that's good enough for me. I don't believe you have though because you sound like a rational intelligent person and if you had any experience of science and social sciencephds you would likely agree with me.

As an amusing aside - have you seen this?  https://twitter.com/RealPeerReview

E.G. 99% of climate scientists believe in climate change, only 1 % do not.

What % of rocket scientists think we have landed on the moon?

If the Americans built a VTOL system for the moon landing craft why did they have to buy the Harrier from Britain? Genuine question, no one i have ever asked has been able to give me a decent answer, all I get is something about more cost effective. (which would be unusual for the  US military, they like tech in house)

If the Americans built a VTOL system for the moon landing craft why did they have to buy the Harrier from Britain?

You do know they are just a bit different?

You do know they are just a bit different?

So are you saying that it was possible for them to control directional movement for a non aerodynamically shaped craft in low gravity but not on an aerodynamic craft in higher gravity?

Please enlighten me to the differences. Make it plausible and simple as I find physics dull.

One had to fly the other didn't.

So you are saying they couldn't combine the technology with a plane even though they built a launch and return system involving two bodies orbiting the sun. They also had to land it vertically and then take off again.

Tiny Clanger

That guy can go whistle for it if he thinks i'm believing him

So you are saying they couldn’t combine the technology with a plane even though they built a launch and return system involving two bodies orbiting the sun.

So basically, it was faked because the Americans bought some British tech?

They could build a Saturn V but not a Harrier?

Or was the Saturn V faked as well?

They left the landing portion on the moon and used a different engine to take off? They designed two completely separate systems for ascent and descent.
When you say you ave asked many times why we had to design a vtol system despite the moon landings can I ask, have you read about how the lander operated at all?
EG here  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Lunar_Module
Tells you all about how it worked.

The harrier development is detailed here.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrier_Jump_Jet

They were developed around about the same time in parallel.

This also tells more about how the lander was developed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Landing_Research_Vehicle
It is a type of VTOL system, designed for a different purpose.

So basically, it was faked because the Americans bought some British tech?

I never said at any point I think it was faked.

They could build a Saturn V but not a Harrier?

Those are the facts.

Or was the Saturn V faked as well?

I never implied that, i'm not sure why you inferred it.

One had to fly the other didn’t.

Your enlightenment is simple but not plausible.

So are you saying that it was possible for them to control directional movement for a non aerodynamically shaped craft in low gravity but not on an aerodynamic craft in higher gravity?

It's a different problem really. Like building a formula one car vs a dune buggy.You could probably take the people who did one and get them to do another but everyone has a specialty. For what it's worth the harrier isn't really an aerodynamic craft when it's hovering. Have a look at the flying bedstead to see the test bed for the 'hover' bit. That crossed with a conventional airframe (more or less) gets you the harrier.

It's also worth noting that other people have made VTOL/STOL/whatever aircraft, including the USSR, it's just a hard problem to get right and the harrier evidently hit a bit of a sweet spot.

Make it plausible and simple as I find physics dull.

Sometimes you have to be prepared to understand complex ideas in order to be able to decide if they work. If you don't want to understand the complex physics then what gives you the right to claim its faked/notpossible/whatever?

I never said at any point I think it was faked.

So why are you highlighting a procurement decision of another part of the Government when discussing the Apollo program?

I think it is called trolling gobuchul.

Anyway so far not a single person has come forward with evidence that anyone with a decent science or engineering background thinks the moon landings were faked.

Thanks for those links, I have read them and the thrust vectoring article. Along with some of the sources they cite. They still don't answer my question.

I was not trolling I was asking a genuine question for which I have never received a satisfactory answer.

I never said i didn't want to understand a difficult concept, quite the opposite. I just don't find physics very interesting.

The procurement decision seems odd, given the technology they had.

It’s a different problem really. Like building a formula one car vs a dune <span class="skimlinks-unlinked">buggy.You</span> could probably take the people who did one and get them to do another but everyone has a specialty.

Thanks. I think it would be doable with the right budget though.

Would the Harrier not being aerodynamic in hover make it closer to the lander in operation?

I never said i didn’t want to understand a difficult concept, quite the opposite.

and this

Make it plausible and simple as I find physics dull.

Are  a bit contradictory.

No matter, it is an irrelevance, perhaps they could have adopted each others technology, they did not for one reason or another. Your lack of an answer to an abstract question does not really shed any light on the veracity of the moon landings.

I think it would be doable with the right budget though.

Yes. For example, the US have now built the F35. The USSR had the Yak 38. I think the french had a dassault that was basically one of the standard mirage delta designs, but with a set of lifting engines in the fuselage as well as the 'going forward' set. We had the P1154 design which was, crudely speaking, a VTOL Phantom, but got cancelled for various political, engineering and cost reasons. The problem is, all the extra gear to do the VTOL bit eats into a meaningful weapons/equipment/fuel load, then the takeoff/landing is incredibly fuel hungry. All of this is a massive compromise for a combat aircraft that is already not going to have as much kit/weapons on board as they would like. For another analogy, it's like trying to design a tour de france winning road bike and also making it fold up like a brompton.

The procurement decision seems odd, given the technology they had.

It's not VTOL, but the TSR2 is supposedly the classic example- 'every aircraft has four dimensions- length, width, height and politics. TSR2 merely got the first three right'. Not everything in procurement is technology based.

Would the Harrier not being aerodynamic in hover make it closer to the lander in operation?

Yes. It's a pure mass reaction, exactly the same as a rocket on take off or a moon lander on landing. Chuck enough stuff out of the bottom fast enough and Mr Newton says you stay up (equal and opposite reaction). For the pedants, a rocket carries all of the material necessary to create the mass flow while the harrier was pulling in local air and using a jet engine to accelerate it downwards.

Aerodynamic flight can be construed to be using an angled wing to force air down. Forcing that air down is what 'pushes' the aircraft up.

I was not trolling I was asking a genuine question for which I have never received a satisfactory answer.

You've already been given two.

One had to fly the other didn’t.

and

They were developed around about the same time in parallel.

Here's another one (kinda related to the first).  The LM isn't by any stretch of the imagination VTOL.

The landing is essentially a controlled drift in an environment which has a sixth of the Earth's gravity and as close to zero atmosphere as makes no odds.  Lateral thrusters make small changes to its trajectory and a vertical booster arrests the descent.  It's got more in common with a hot air balloon than a Harrier.

The LM's take-off is an entirely different system.  That's a rocket booster which separates the top half of the LM, the landing system is left behind on the moon.

The Harrier by comparison is an aircraft which can land with precision and take off again vertically in Earth's gravity and atmosphere using wildly complicated computer systems which keep it stable in a hostile environment.  You could no more land the lunar lander on the Earth than you could a wardrobe, the first breath of wind and it'd be on its roof.  (I doubt a Harrier would cope too well on the moon either, come to that.)

Not to mention the Harrier was developed by a British consortium who may not have been party to nor wanted to give their technology to the US.

I find physics dull.

Yes, I see.

I am happy that this place is getting back to it's old self again.  Nice work

The harrier was a joint UK-US project from the start. The US was fully involved with the Harrier at a prototype stage and through out it's development, the later versions were almost completely US designed and built.

Read this about the development.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrier_Jump_Jet

Second line - "Originally developed by UK manufacturer Hawker Siddeley in the 1960s,"

And if you then read the article it was a British development part funded by nato. The US got involved for the mark 2 in 1973 ish, just 4 years after the first moon landings...

Quotes from wikipedia:

In 1961 the United Kingdom, United States and West Germany jointly agreed to purchase nine aircraft developed from the P.1127, for the evaluation of the performance and potential of V/STOL aircraft. These aircraft were built by Hawker Siddeley and were designated Kestrel FGA.1 by the UK.

.......................................................

In the late 1960s the British and American governments held talks on producing Harriers in the United States. Hawker Siddeley and McDonnell Douglas formed a partnership in 1969 in preparation for American production, but Congressman Mendel Rivers and the House Appropriations Committee held that it would be cheaper to produce the AV-8A on the pre-existing production lines in the United Kingdom—hence all AV-8A Harriers were purchased from Hawker Siddeley.

EDIT - the point is the US were already testing the prototype Harrier before building the Lunar Lander Module.

Anyway so far not a single person has come forward with evidence that anyone with a decent science or engineering background thinks the moon landings were faked.

What has understanding science or engineering to do with acceptance that something could be faked.  The science and engineering could explain why you couldn't possibly have done it which is nothing to do with whether anyone could fake it.

kerley my premise is along these lines, its just that having that knowledge allows you to understand how it is possible. Hence I have yet to meet a qualified scientist or engineer who thinks they were faked, the only people who think they were faked do not understand the science, technology, industry or govnmt services.

Do you know anyone who fits the educational criteria set out in the OP who does deny the moon landings?

EDIT – the point is the US were already testing the prototype Harrier before building the Lunar Lander Module.

Fair point, but lets not take away the original British achievement...

I work with a woman who thinks the moon landings were faked

Weirdly, she believes we've been to the moon, but just the Neil/Buzz landing was faked

Agreed, and I'm not trying to. This was posted due to idea from bsims about different VTOL technologies.

yes, agreed.

boba fatt is she by any chance a well educated scientist or engineer?

I don’t understand the comparisons with the moon lander and the Harrier! The hard bit about the Harrier was not the vertical landing and take off, it was the transition between the two, and the harrier has to contend with stronger gravity, a heavier aircraft that had to actually do stuff other than simply land and take off, it had to hover and be controllable. The moon lander was basically a controlled descent in a very low gravitational field, no wind to cope with and didn’t have to have the capability to hover, and fly around, it just had to perform a controlled crash without killing their occupants. And the take off was really about ballistics. So not sure how the fact the Brit’s developed Harrier somehow casts doubt on the ability of NASA (largely consisting of British engineers as well as a lot of other nationalities) to have developed the lander or the technology to land a man on the moon and return him safely back to Earth.

the US didn't develop a STVOL aircraft probably because their focus and priorities was on other things in the ‘50’s like long range supersonic nuclear bombers and SR71’s and the space race, so not developing a STOVL aircraft for a niche capability of the Marines was not high on their priority list. I’m sure if it was P1 in the US military agenda they would have developed one.

Do you go looking for flat earthers and Moon Landing disbelievers ?

In all my humble years I've never had the pleasure of engaging with anyone with such beliefs..

Where do such folks congregate ?

America never went to the moon but they are breeding an army of alien robot soldiers on the dark side of it.

At least two people above have mentioned this, but i agree,

IF the moon landings were faked, it would have taken (i guess) a couple of hundred people to do it, ie:make the fake movies.

Also, IF that’s actually true, how on earth do you keep a couple of hundred media types, who crave fame and money, quiet, when if they opened their mouths about it they would almost certainly made an absolute fortune and achieved the fame that most of these people actually desire the most.

i don’t believe that’s possible tbh.

i think it’s more plausible that nasa sent people to the moon, on live tv.

o level physics is the only qualification i left school with.

i’ve never met anyone who believes the moon landings were fake, or that the earth is flat, that I could have a rational conversation with. Ime, as soon as you counter one of their claims they change the subject.

I've had a few people i thought sane, educated & not,  post in support of Tommy Robinson on Facebook, so yeah some people are just idiots

Sorry no quotes ,

swanny, thanks that helps, so to summarise you are saying they would have developed a harrier if they  knew they needed one.

neil, that’s interesting.

wobliscot, transition, that is a new angle for me to look at, as you clearly understand this area, it might appear as an uncomplicated situation.

darcy , please elaborate

cougar, not really. Are you saying the harrier was harder and that they employ a different type of thrust vectoring.

5plus8 , are you saying it is not possible to simplify a theory/ hypothesis to help a layman understand.

I find physics dull.

Clearly.

count zero would you care to elaborate on that?