Monitoring a child's phone access

but we cannot take it from him and check the contents as it is his property.

He is 11, under your care and you are concerned about his safeguarding. I’d suggest you are well entitled to check it’s content even without his consent.

I’d suggest you are well entitled to check it’s content even without his consent.

We have been advised not to by his social worker but to try to do it without his knowledge (as advice for this specific case, not as a legal position). After seeing his reaction this morning we understand why we have been told this.

I doubt you'll have much luck installing something at the router to see what he's up to on a specific website or app as a lot of the traffic would be end-to-end encrypted. You block sites or time limit access though.

You block sites or time limit access though.

Yes we can (and do) limit access using the Deco app and his phone has to stay downstairs after bedtime (unfortunately we do not have the password) but he does spend lots of time in his room during the day too. We haven't seen any evidence of him visiting any concerning material but we are aware of the ability for others to contact him using the social media he does use.

I doubt you’ll have much luck installing something at the router to see what he’s up to on a specific website or app as a lot of the traffic would be end-to-end encrypted

You'll be able to see which sites he visited, just no detail on the content.

You’ll be able to see which sites he visited, just no detail on the content.

That's right - and it is all social media but there is the obvious risk of grooming etc on such sites.

Ships probably sailed on this proviso, but our kids get a phone knowing that we can check it it any point. I'd have have a chat about it and emphasize the trust aspect etc.

Ships probably sailed on this proviso, but our kids get a phone knowing that we can check it it any point.

Our own (older) children have that rule and understand it. It's very different in this case as he is fostered, it's his phone and he's never had restrictions placed on him. It was a big win when we got him to leave it downstairs at bedtime.

I’d have have a chat about it and emphasize the trust aspect etc.

We are some way off having his trust – he's 11 years old and this is the first longer-term stable home he has ever been in (obviously this is something we are working on).

Trust is earned and it goes both ways. Doing it without his knowledge is a dangerous gambit because if he catches you and already has trust issues then he'll never trust you again. Conversely, if he wants to be trusted then he needs to stop acting deeply suspiciously even if it's actually innocent.

You're paying the bill. An obvious solution presents itself if he doesn't like it.

I am not a parent.

With my technical head on,

The Virgin hub is a piece of goushi, you can forget any functionality there. The Deco units I'm not familiar with but I'd presume that if it's not giving you the visibility you need then it's highly unlikely that you can just "install something" unless the system supports OpenWRT. Anything you could install on the phone itself - even if he "lets" you - is likely bypassable by a tech-savvy near-teen. And besides, whatever infrastructure measures you could theoretically take will go out of the window as soon as he switches off Wi-Fi and drops to mobile data.

We've discussed this at length before. I'm of the opinion that the solution in most cases here isn't technical, it's social. I appreciate that's probably not what you wanted to hear, but.

We have been advised not to by his social worker

You should be asking there rather than here, as the circumstances - and more importantly the risks - are somewhat outside the norm.

You’re paying the bill. An obvious solution presents itself if he doesn’t like it.

Not that obvious as we can't let him take the 40 minute each way trip to school (bike, train, walk) without a way of contacting anyone in emergencies.

You should be asking there rather than here, as the circumstances – and more importantly the risks – are somewhat outside the norm.

We will be discussing again but until now they have encouraged us to be Secret Squirrel and try to find out what we can as they are concerned about his use as well (historical knowledge from before he was with us).

Not that obvious as we can’t let him take the 40 minute each way trip to school (bike, train, walk) without a way of contacting anyone in emergencies.

You don't need data to make a phone call.

Arguably, an untrustworthy 11-year old with safeguarding issues doesn't need data at all.

You don’t need data to make a phone call.

We need it for location sharing.

Dumb phone or phone with very limited Internet access. On a payg data plan witj 1gb use
If he needs to contact you he can txt or voice mail.
The unlimited access to the web, unpoliced by you, all sorts of mischief is available.
Yes, he will get ribbed at school for not having the latest phone and you might need a laptop for homework but you can monitor that.
Kids are not stupid. If you have taken him in on trust and paying for the phone he will have to accept tjat the contract phone ypu are willing to let him have is very basic, with very limited Internet access to porn, which is exactly what he is looking at.

Dumb phone or phone with very limited Internet access.

These sort of suggestions aren't workable - we are in the early days of a placement with a challenging child. Taking away the one thing he relies on isn't a sustainable way of starting to build a relationship with him.

very limited Internet access to porn, which is exactly what he is looking at.

Without going into specifics I do not necessarily believe that will be the case.

We need it for location sharing.

Out of interest, is this need a genuine need (something specific to fostering)? Location sharing otherwise doesn't seem like a 'need' per se.

Out of interest, is this need a genuine need (something specific to fostering)? Location sharing otherwise doesn’t seem like a ‘need’ per se.

In the short-term yes it is (due to the 40-minute each way trip to school each way using public transport). This isn't a fostering requirement but for our own peace of mind.

Topend stuff isn't going to work as WhatsApp is end-to-end encrypted.
That said, it is possible to install the app via a browser - and you could try to monitor conversations that way.
But your charge will need to buy into this - and see a reason to do it (look your messages are backed-up this way).

TikTok - no idea.

Whatever: You are going to have build trust, and very slowly.

Edit: We also have Blink cameras installed after discovering that H was getting out of bed and going walk-about at 2am.
Getting him home at a sensible time is difficult when his friends have no curfew.
We've worked on it and negotiated. Always tell us where you're going (because I can then give you money for chips): Home by 10 on a school night, 11 on a weekend.
Not ideal parenting but not every child is H.

Not a router resolution but we installed Screen Time (a parental control app) on our daughters phone when she first got one. Could monitor use of apps and also turn use of the apps on and off as well as control data use and time spent on the phone, but didn't get into specific web sites etc (other than blocking adult content if you wanted to).

Found it useful for a couple of years, mainly for managing time on the phone. It was a Subscription service and at the time quite cheap for the year, no idea how much it's is now.

Location sharing doesn't tell you where he is. It just tells you where his phone is.

I don't know. Technology has moved rapidly in a very short space of time. There's been a huge push towards security - which is a good thing as it's been severely lacking for years - but we haven't really caught up with the New World Order when it comes to parental control (either technically or educationally).

What's the phone, incidentally?

Location sharing doesn’t tell you where he is. It just tells you where his phone is.

Right now we don't have a trust issue with running away, it's just to check he is safely heading home on his bike as he is living in a part of the town he doesn't know very well and if he gets lost we can more easily locate him.

The phone is a Samsung A12

Setting up monitoring without the child's knowledge would be tricky, you'd need access to something like Pegasus but you can't really just buy that... Other tools designed for monitoring (e.g. mSpy) are discoverable so you'd be best off being open about needing to install it on his phone. You can't do anything outside of having something installed on the phone when apps like WhatsApp are involved for reasons others have mentioned.

Setting up monitoring without the child’s knowledge would be tricky, you’d need access to something like Pegasus but you can’t really just buy that… Other tools designed for monitoring (e.g. mSpy) are discoverable so you’d be best off being open about needing to install it on his phone.

Fair enough and I suppose that I suspected that would be the case. We will just have to continue to build on the trust between us and over time start to suggest incremental changes to his (and our) access to the phone and its contents.

You should be asking there rather than here, as the circumstances – and more importantly the risks – are somewhat outside the norm.

This is how I would handle this also. Ask the social worker what you need to look out for re raising a safeguarding case, and then look out for that, and if it happens, raise a safeguarding case. In the meantime, assume that the kid is safe as you can make them and do what you can to earn their trust- who knows, one day they may be ready to tell you what's going on

My kids are much younger so only going on experience from nephew who is same age as your kid. Only thing I can suggest at this stage is honesty with him as that is what this type of trust is built on. Maybe explain the need to see his phone but that you understand it's his so he can let you see it when ready. Maybe show your phone too?

^^^ He’s not our child, he’s in care so to go from no restrictions to sensible restrictions for his age isn’t going to happen quickly but we are trying to find out if he is doing anything dangerous to him or others in the short term. Naturally we are engaging social services (not that they help a great deal) but just trying to work out if there’s another way of checking on what he might be doing.

Subtle shoulder-surfing?

I have nothing to add from the technical aspects but i want to say what you are doing is great and your approach seems spot on.. julie and i looked into fostering and came to the conclusion that we just couldn't do it.

Society needs folk like you

Very challenging situation .

Our recently 12 son has an iPhone. It blocks quite a bit of content ie 95% but he has still found porn.

we have told him we can remotely monitor what he views, reality is we can’t we just look at his browsing history occasionally

he has WhatsApp because we use it as a family but he doesn’t have TikTok or Facebook. He’s said it’s not fair because his mates have that kind of stuff but tough as far as we are concerned

we have a Deco system at home and it switches his wifi off at 9pm. still has data though but we have to gift that to him

with a foster kid I can see it would be very difficult to lay down the law.

A thought:

Give the child a mirror device (Chromebook in our case) where the account synchronises with the phone.
Whatsapp can also be downloaded.
Set it up not to auto-log out. The device will generally be used for home-surfing / movie watching etc and will probably be left unlocked when Jr goes to school.
You can then check his browsing history.

Note: used this to prove H's innocence when the junior school accused him of encouraging his peers to watch pornography. Turns out he was a big fan of a US version of "Bargain Hunt" called Pawn Stars.
He's currently ploughing his way through Louis Theroux documentaries.

You could also offer him a better phone, but on condition you have access. Moving up from an A12 to an iPhone SE (for example) might be enough to make him consider the trade off, and probably wouldn't cost that much.

I have nothing to add from the technical aspects but i want to say what you are doing is great and your approach seems spot on.

+1

You could also offer him a better phone, but on condition you have access. Moving up from an A12 to an iPhone SE (for example) might be enough to make him consider the trade off, and probably wouldn’t cost that much.

Good idea! (We already tried it with an iPhone XS 🙂 ) but nope - he wants his phone with what we are assume are his private pictures of his late mum, messages etc.

And thank you to those with positive messages - it can be hard (especially for my wife as she does the majority) but it’s nice when we see him happy and playing with our two 13 yr old girls. It’s the first time in his life he’s been in a stable (and clean) home in his entire life so it’s impressive that he’s as good as he (generally) is!

How mature/sensible/trustworthy are your girls, both from his perspective (big sister vibes) and yours (not out every night drinking cider in the park)? Do they have monitored access to phones etc?

Might it be another angle to consider?

Society needs folk like you

Worth repeating - MrsMC did 25 years in front line child protection and is now working in adoption, and people like you prevent so many more kids getting damaged further and start to recover.

You’re paying the bill. An obvious solution presents itself if he doesn’t like it.

I am not a parent.

I am a parent.  These sort of approaches are quickly outfoxed by teenagers (ok he’s not a teenager yet but if he’s in foster care he probably has more life exposure than most).  Friend of my son would get his phone confiscated as punishment - he quickly acquired a secret second phone (just connecting via wifi) to bypass the punishment!

I am not a foster parent but I have dealt a little with people who have been through the care system.  My immediate reaction is that what you describe is not an unusual reaction for a teenager thrown from pillar to post, treated like shit by adults his whole life, and in difficult circumstances.  Whilst the classic safeguarding issues all parents are paranoid about could be the issue my guess is it’s one (or more) of the follow three:

- someone (who should have been caring for him) in the past has used his phone / content as a psychological weapon against him; doesn’t necessarily mean anything there was bad about what he put there just they used his “private” chats in a bad way

- he’s been contacting someone who he thinks you won’t approve of.  Perhaps a grandparent? I don’t know what the foster arrangements are but does he think (or is he) prohibited from contacting people from the past?

- he’s written some things in WhatsApp messages which you shouldn’t read.  The sort of things teenagers used to write in diaries.  The sort of things which could cause you or your wife massive offence, like “this fat cow is making me do homework - I was better off when nobody pretended to care” or “FML this smug prick I’m staying with is obsessed with mountain bikes and a wood burner; wouldn’t mind doing his daughter though ;-)” or even “this place is amazing, I wish I could stay forever”.

WhatsApp is end to end encrypted you won’t bypass that, so all you can do is build trust. Do you need to even touch his phone to install an app though?  On iOS with family setting when my daughter wanted to install an app she would install via App Store and I would get a message asking me to approve.

used this to prove H’s innocence when the junior school accused him of encouraging his peers to watch pornography. Turns out he was a big fan of a US version of “Bargain Hunt” called Pawn Stars.

🤣 That's brilliant.

– he’s written some things in WhatsApp messages which you shouldn’t read. The sort of things teenagers used to write in diaries.

That's a really good point actually. He's probably at about the right age to crave some privacy even if it's innocent.

@poly Yes this is probably correct - I sort of covered that in an earlier message as I suspect he has pictures of his late mum (who only died a couple of weeks ago), possibly pictures of his family home (which he is very embarrassed about due to the filthy state it was in) along with messages from him mum and/or from his older brother with whom he has a fractious relationship and I suspect there will be physiological bullying going on there (and from what we know, this is likely to be going both ways).

How mature/sensible/trustworthy are your girls, both from his perspective (big sister vibes) and yours (not out every night drinking cider in the park)? Do they have monitored access to phones etc?

Might it be another angle to consider?

We have explained to him that we have access to their phones (and they are happy about it) which they have corroborated and that certainly helped - he left his phone downstairs last night without complaining at all which is good. He is very close to one of our daughters so she helps support our approach because he trusts her the most out of anyone in the house.

Maybe try and encourage him to share some of the pics of his Mum with you through WhatsApp etc? If you look at it innocently his phone could be the link to his Mum and it may be good to share. It could be that there are also destructive memories on their too. If you can get him to open up and share that may help in the long term, but not easy whilst its still raw.

I think Mogrim's approach is good above, offer him a better phone, but with rules and conditions attached ?

I think Mogrim’s approach is good above, offer him a better phone, but with rules and conditions attached ?

Yeah we tried that but got an outright refusal. His screen is broken at the moment so we are going to see if we can cut a deal about getting it repaired (which is silly money for that phone) if we get more access.

I have nothing to add from the technical aspects but i want to say what you are doing is great and your approach seems spot on..Society needs folk like you

I read through the thread as I have an 11 year old child just starting big school with a phone for the first time etc, but then just wanted to say what tj has already commented.
No matter what you're doing and how hard it is, it's already undoubtably giving the child a much better chance at a decent future than he'd ever have otherwise.

I have an 11 year old child just starting big school with a phone for the first time

Yep, we have had this discussion – most of his friends are just getting (very locked down) phones for the first time yet he has had unmonitored access to most things for years so doesn't understand why suddenly rules are being put in place. He will get a massive shock when the Netflix account he still has access to gets shut down (which won't be long as it was his mum paying for it).

He is very close to one of our daughters so she helps support our approach because he trusts her the most out of anyone in the house.

Good, that's exactly what i was hoping to get at.

His screen is broken at the moment so we are going to see if we can cut a deal about getting it repaired (which is silly money for that phone) if we get more access.

If you are trying to gain his trust, why not just get the phone repaired. Don't cut a deal, don't put conditions on getting it repaired, just take him to the repair place, get it fixed, pay, go home.

Access comes later. When he trusts you.

It's not a business deal you're trying to do, it's al about emotions, quite deeply seated by the sounds of it.

Or get him a new phone, help him copy everything across *without encroaching on his privacy*, looking at his files or installing spyware/whatever. Show that you can be trusted, especially if he has that much of distrust of adults.

If you are trying to gain his trust, why not just get the phone repaired. Don’t cut a deal, don’t put conditions on getting it repaired, just take him to the repair place, get it fixed, pay, go home.

Access comes later. When he trusts you.

It’s not a business deal you’re trying to do, it’s al about emotions, quite deeply seated by the sounds of it.

Good point - will discuss that with my wife. Although, thinking about it, I am not sure he would be comfortable letting it out of his sight for a second so I'd need to find someone that will do it with him watching and even that might not work.

Or get him a new phone, help him copy everything across *without encroaching on his privacy*, looking at his files or installing spyware/whatever. Show that you can be trusted, especially if he has that much of distrust of adults.

I think he wouldn't accept that one but certainly something we could discuss.

Unless there are some very real and specific worries (which obviously you can't post specifics) I'd just go along with what poly said...

Even simpler ??
It's something you'd disapprove of or he thinks you would... or just plain personal.. or even random stuff he thought was cool and doesn't now.
It's incredibly unlikely its anything as traumatic or serious as losing his mum... or (unless you have real reason otherwise) as bad as you worry.

Whatever you can and can't do to make the poor blighters life better is HUGELY and probably above ALL ELSE going to hinge on trust... from his perspective you are asking him to trust you whilst demonstrating you don't trust him.

From your perspective .. you're an adult and have more experience and wisdom... he's 11.. that's never going to wash and this isn't meant to sound rude but probably does ... one of you has to "be the adult" and take the first step in this

pretty much everything at that age but it could be things as simple as a racist jibe or sexist joke or the excellent examples poly gave... any of the stuff you and I did or said at that age.

The HUGE difference and the one I stress to my son is we didn't have social media.. or phones or a log being made of our entire lives for which I'm profoundly grateful.

Not seen the suggestion to contact his contract provider, see what they can offer... I know when I first set up my son's phone on Talkmobile there were some options and limitations available. (He's still with them now he's at Uni, cos it's only £8 a month.)
I think EE have some blocking available, must have monitoring, or checking too.
If the lad has something to hide, then no doubt you need to get something sorted.
Good luck

from his perspective you are asking him to trust you whilst demonstrating you don’t trust him.

I would phrase it a different way, and the way that we phrased it to our son, that we want to give him Trust and responsibility, however at age 12 he is not worldly wise, and we need to help safeguard and protect him. We have actually asked him to be honest and open with us and ask questions about anything he sees online, and we need to be able to see what hes looking at to guide him. Thats how you build trust.

@stevextc - It is actually very hard to know what may be happening, what may be on the phone, why he is so guarded about it but we do know that the social services flagged his reliance on it as a concern when we took him in and asked us to try to find out what/why it is. This was very much compounded by his response when I needed his phone briefly yesterday (physically and emotional as well as with the delay in giving it to me after much tapping away at the screen). He wasn't just having a tantrum, it was a full-on melt-down (sat on the floor and shaking uncontrollably - not just having a strop). Perhaps it is simply because it is a very precious thing to him (maybe a rare gift from his mum)? or maybe he was panicking that we'd see something on there that he knew/assumed would get him into trouble?

Saying that, he had a similar physical response at the weekend when we tried to take him for a haircut at a different hairdressers than the one he used when his mum was around - the same shaking and curling up into a shell - so whatever is on the phone may be utterly insignificant but just very important to him? Maybe one day we will find out.

The scary thing is how he is minutes later after these outbursts of emotion - the lid is straight back on the box, he appears perfectly happy and you'd never know. I do know that one day we (or another carer) will witness an explosive outpouring of emotions though...

Not seen the suggestion to contact his contract provider, see what they can offer…

They won't speak to us - the account was set up by his mum and of course we have no admin rights/passwords.

Poor lad - doesn't sound like in my completely un educated view that its about hiding content on a phone, more mental health issues that need support

Poor lad – doesn’t sound like in my completely un educated view that its about hiding content on a phone, more mental health issues that need support

Yes that's in hand with various departments (there are several issues that need addressing) but he simply does not talk to people at all (as in outright and complete silence when he is with any specialist). However for the majority of the time when he is just a kid being a kid he is actually quite nice - generally polite, tidies up after himself, resilient, responsible and intelligent. I have no idea how - he must have worked all that out for himself growing up.

They won’t speak to us – the account was set up by his mum and of course we have no admin rights/passwords

Bloody hell, you take on all that responsibility and they put obstacles in your way! What a shit situation. Sorry, not helpful, but man, no wonder you have to resort to asking on the internet!

@Johndoh

He seems to be coping incredibly well considering he just lost his mum.
However it would be an absolute miracle if he hasn't got trust issues and is scared to death what's going to happen to him and who decides.
You are doing an amazing job but what you can do to help him is going to rely on his trust.

It is actually very hard to know what may be happening, what may be on the phone, why he is so guarded about it but we do know that the social services flagged his reliance on it as a concern when we took him in and asked us to try to find out what/why it is.

That's their issue ...it's not yours and most certainly not his.
If he was 5 it might be a blanket or soft toy... but he's 11 and its 2022.

but he simply does not talk to people at all (as in outright and complete silence when he is with any specialist).

There is a huge elephant in the room here... he's just lost his mum ..his whole world has fallen apart.... of course he's got some issues, he would have to have very serious personality disorders NOT to be affected.
He's probably also terrified about what is going to happen to him and who makes those decisions. Meltdowns in hairdressers or over a phone are not entirely unknown for 11yr old boys anyway..

I've no idea if he has a father, grandparents etc. etc. he might want to live with (and I doubt you can say) but when I was his age I divided the world between those trying to take me away from my mum and immediate family, a couple of very close friends and my scout leader..

My guess is you need to get on that VERY VERY small list of people he trusts at all in order to help him.

There are no guarantees there isn't something of real consequence on his phone... however considering things of consequence that happened to him in the last month (maybe longer) they are 90%+ likely to be mostly or completely inconsequential. I know you can't say but reading what you did say and a bit of extrapolation.. it's not going to be anything half as lifechanging as loosing his mum.

On the other hand the consequences of you looking at his phone are well over 90% likely to erode any trust and what are you even going to do if you find something like some porn or his discussing his math's teachers boobs with a school mate etc.

Are you going to report back to social services ??? If you did and this gets brought up by "specialists" he's going to know it's you ... even if you don't he's probably going to be waiting for you to do it??? I just don't see any positive outcomes from doing it and lots of negatives???

My feeling (based on when I was 11) is what he needs now is some trust... and someone to trust?
I could be wrong, I'm no expert and I'm giving you my "consumer view" not the "expert"/"specialist" view

They won’t speak to us – the account was set up by his mum and of course we have no admin rights/passwords.

But they'll happily take your money?

Or are you talking about his Google account?

Also, +1 everything Steve just said.

@steve - can I message you directly?

@cougar - no, we are doing ‘friends and family’ top ups so he has a usable phone - the auto top-ups have stopped since his mums account was shut down.

steve – can I message you directly?

Of course mate .

edits: Sent you a message with email and phone as well.