Inspired by a comment on current poll on the bike thread (and in a bid to generate some much needed debate).
What do you think. I think I used to think this...maybe not so much now.
Disclosure - household income has dropped £35k in actual terms in the last 5 years and £53k when you take into account cost of living/inflation. And our outgoings (as in change of circumstances rather than double counting cost of living rises) have gone up by £8k. We are far from badly off and still very lucky in comparison to a lot (arguably even most) people. We were lucky enough to have put enough aside when we earned more that it set us up to live better now than our incomes would suggest . But life is definitely a bit more stressful. Not knowing where the money for a new (to us) car will come from when needed or the where the central heating dial is set having a real impact on the household bottom line. An overseas holiday just not being a thing we could consider. This is not a sob story and our current circumstances are entirely from our life choices.
But I reckon a little more money might make me a bit happier. Or a bit less stressed, so a bit happier. I could pay people to do/repair stuff and give myself more free time to do stuff I want to do. That would definitely make me happier. My wife's job working for a charity brings her into contact with people way way off to the left of median income who most certainly would be a bit happier with a bit more money.
On the other hand I could totally get behind the phase "the pursuit of money doesn't buy you happiness" or "working yourself into the ground for money doesn't buy you happiness" or even "more money than you need doesn't buy you happiness". But I reckon "money doesn't buy you happiness" is a phrase for the comfortably off.
Discuss.
Disclaimer...I am terminally unambitious and prone to laziness.
More money would make me happier but not if I had to work more/harder/be stressed to get it. Without a lottery win I am happy to drive a Dacia and ride a cheap bike. So in answer to your question, yes and no
Money doesn't buy happiness was a lie spread by the rich to stop the poor wanting a peice of their pie.
I think there is a sweet spot in the middle. Rich people seem to spend a lot of time worrying about money, as do poor people (more understandably). Enough to pay the bills, buy toys and go on holiday. Not so much it over shadows your life.
Some of the most messed up people I've known have been the richest - family net worth of hundreds of millions but totally dysfunctional.
Is that the same thing though?
Isn't that "lots of money doesn't necessarily buy you happiness"?
Money is like oxygen.
It's only important when you don't have enough.
For years I lived paycheck to paycheck. There was a time when this month's salary would just pay off the overdraft and we would have to start digging again. It was relentless, but I had a good life and a stable family and I was happy.
Now I am older and I have enough. I earn more, have less outgoings (mortgage paid off and kids left home). Am I happier probably, but not much. Am I less stressed - hell yes!!
I am terminally unambitious and prone to laziness. More money would make me happier but not if I had to work more/harder/be stressed to get it. Without a lottery win I am happy to drive a Dacia and ride a cheap bike
This pretty much sums me up. I always counter the "money doesn't make you happy" part with "...but poverty can definitely make you miserable".
I reckon I'd be happier with more money in my current situation. But then I wouldn't have cool bikes.
But in all seriousness, I'm pretty sure most people worry about money on a daily basis. Not millions to fund an extravagant life, but enough where you can just do work a normal job day to day without worrying about covering bills and a normal life.
As some Charlie put it quite well a hundred or so years ago...
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.
Money is like oxygen.
It's only important when you don't have enough.
Bullseye
Money can't buy you happiness but it does bring you a more pleasant form of misery.
I often joke that I need a lottery win, and a big euro lotto roll over, but in truth more than a couple of million would probably really screw you up. That said, a few million to pay off the mortgage, set the kids up, help out the extended family, would probably make me happy.....I would hope. Right, I'm off to buy a lottery ticket!
Money can't buy happiness but it does allow you to be miserable in style
Someone once said that sex was like oxygen, it's only important when you're not getting enough. Applied equally as well to money.
Wife came home from work where she works with a couple of young ladies half her age and the conversation revolved around budgeting for the weekly food shop. I feel quite fortunate that we buy what we want. Not the humble brag it sounds, we just live within our means. I doubt we eat out more than once a month and if we want to watch something on Disney, we cancel Apple. We're comfortable but not rolling in it.
I do doubt that if things continue to follow their current trajectory, those 35 years behind me will not get to enjoy the security I do. Similarly, I'll never enjoy the final salary pension lifestyle of those ahead of me who worked the same industry..
Something interesting I heard recently. There is enough money in America to solve all the homelessness and poverty. It would only need to take money from BILLIONAIRES to achieve this and would still leave each of them with enough money to continue being billionaires
I am terminally unambitious and prone to laziness. More money would make me happier but not if I had to work more/harder/be stressed to get it. Without a lottery win I am happy to drive a Dacia and ride a cheap bike
Yep, that. I earn less than the national average, about half the average on that poll.
I have an old rusty van, a nice but small flat in the Tweed Valley, a few nice but old bikes and can go abroad once or twice a year.
I finish work at 5pm every day, apart from Friday when it's 1pm and never do a weekend
I could earn more if I worked harder but why would I? I earn what I need for what I think is a good quality of life, why would I want to put more effort/stress into work? It would leave me less time and energy to enjoy things. The only advantage I can see is that I could retire earlier but that's not guaranteed so I'm going to enjoy myself while I can.
Having said that I worry about how to pay for a trip to Portugal rather than where lunch is coming from so there are degrees to this
More money (if it were to magically appear in my account) would certainly improve my happiness.
Barring a lottery win though, the real world means that said extra money would come in exchange for time and stress that I really don’t want, and would likely reduce overall happiness.
I’m of the camp your more likely to be happier with it but the flipside question is how much is enough 🙂
John D. Rockefeller, the founder of the Standard Oil Company, the first billionaire of the United States of America and once the richest man on Earth was asked by a reporter, “How much money is enough?” He calmly replied, “Just a little bit more”
I think the OP situation is different. I think having to live on less having had more is difficult. We are in the opposite position where expenditure has dropped massively. The mortgage is gone as are the kids. The single biggest benefit is not having to worry about money. We still run 2 rust buckets and the house looks like summer students just moved out. But when the hob and oven went in the same week being able to replace them without pause for thought is priceless
Obviously this has been studied loads but obviously being poor is really miserable.
verasatium did a video on happyness that covers this
Minimum wage doesn't buy you happiness. HTH.
more than a couple of million would probably really screw you up.
I'm willing to take that risk! Just need to actually buy a ticket... but it feels like a big con so dont bother.
Where the **** do you live, Balmoral?
Well, they did say
set the kids up,
Maybe living in a shoe?
Having money stops you worrying about not having money. Everything else is down to lifestyle and values.
I reckon I was happiest when I was a poor student. But then thinking about it, i was also young.
Having money stops you worrying about not having money. Everything else is down to lifestyle and values.
Especially when you’re retired! Having a significant amount of money available means that things like house maintenance becomes something that can be carried out without even thinking about it.
Then being miserable becomes a lifestyle choice!
This has been studied hasn't it? And IIRC the finding was that money does indeed make you happier up to a point, and after that it has no effect on your happiness either way. And IIRC even more, that point was lower than you might think.
Although this could just be a different expression of not having enough money making you unhappy,
So I have earnt more but at the expense of overtime weekends and nights. I'm currently happy not earning as much as I could but not working as much, doing enough overtime to be seen to be doing my bit.
Where I'm at (comfortable) enabled my wife to have a career break for child no2 until he started nursery (3) then work reduced hours.
When I was younger I was living Friday pay to Friday pay and usually by Wednesday I was down to putting £5 at time Of petrol in the car. But I was young single and enjoying Edinburghs extended licensing hours during the festival.
More money would make me happier but not if I had to work more/harder/be stressed to get it.
I think the magic number used to be £50,000 - that is to say there were surveys a few years ago where people were asked if they could earn any amount of money (ie work for, rather than just win or be given any amount of money) how much would they want and the most popular answer was £50k as seemingly most people felt earning more than that would necessarily come with more work/expectation/responsibility than they'd be happy to have in their lives.
I'm not sure if its a survey thats frequently repeated but it would be interesting if that '£50k' has shifted at all over time
Due to a recent promotion, I might, finally, at 44, be able to not live pay check to pay check.
I do live somewhere nice, but I don’t have an extravagant lifestyle (22y old car, a holiday every 2 years, few hobbies and fewer nights out, cycle everywhere) but I might finally not have to check my bank balance every few days to make sure it’s all working out, might not have to exhaustively plan and map out EVERY SINGLE PURCHASE that’s not groceries. This will be a blessed relief.
Simple things like buying the kids a new book rather than having to ask them to wait, coming home and looking for a SH one on eBay and promising it will be here soon - that kind of thing.
Will it make me happier? I really hope so. Being broke gets me down, so maybe this will help. Not happiness but less misery and worry.
What makes you happy is agency and control over your life - in other words to be able to do the things you want to do. Money can help that, but if you don't want much then money won't help. If you don't have much else to do then you might not mind going to work, but if all you want to do is ride your bike then having to go to work stops you doing that - you don't have agency to do what you want to do. In that case, money would make you happy because it would enable you to ride your bike all day rather than work. If you want to say, teach kids, then you don't need a lot of money because teaching kids is a paying job.
I would say that having lots of money won't necessarily make you happy. Having too little certainly won't. However, you could be content in either of those scenarios 🤔
Will it make me happier? I really hope so. Being broke gets me down, so maybe this will help.
It will. I was broke until about 40 and I still get genuine pleasure from being able to get £20 out of the cash machine without checking my balance first, or buying the organic eggs without worrying about the cost. It's ****ing brilliant.
It also doesn't buy you taste judging by the monstrous carbuncles masquerading as houses we saw in Croyde last week 🙄
I'm sure I read a study years back in New Scientist which said that something life changing like a large lottery win does make you happier... for about 3 months. Then you return to previous happiness level.
I think if you're the type not to be happy with what you have, to compare yourself to others, well - there will always be someone who has more than you, a bigger yacht for sale than you can afford.
I'm not that way inclined, my car is an old-ish Skoda, my 2 good bikes were each about £1500 new (now 4-5 years old)... but I'm willing to take the risk of being no happier after a large EuroMillions win for the sake of science 😉
I still get genuine pleasure from being able to get £20 out of the cash machine without checking my balance first, or buying the organic eggs without worrying about the cost. It's ****ing brilliant.
I was thinking similar the other day. I can't afford to drive new cars for instance but a simple thing like being able to walk around a supermarket and just get whatever food I fancy is great. I'm happy with that.
Never had more than a few £100 showing in the bank at any point in my life, currently have £187 but pip and disability goes in next week so that’s plenty to see me through. Only time I “sorta” had money/cash to actually spend on “doing things/stuff” was when I grew weed from mid 90’s to 2010 ish but not stupid money….perhaps a £12k/yr boost at most to my min wage job at the time, coulda been more but I gave 50% of my weed to the Scottish medicinal cannabis co-op who gave it to cancer/spinal/glaucoma patients etc.
Always been happy with what I have, lived from week to week and had the type of of jobs I can pick up/drop off at a whim and go do whatever I liked.
Spent most of the 90’s/2000’s riding my bike/outdoor stuff/clubbing/music related stuff, never well paid but looking back from my current situation I wouldn’t change a thing
There are also things that can cost nothing that can make one happy.
Spring flowers in the park. Sunset walk on a beach etc
There are also things that can cost nothing that can make one happy.
Spring flowers in the park. Sunset walk on a beach etc
Why does it have to be such wholesome stuff TJ? What about coke and hookers? Can't they make people happy too? 😉
Coke and hookers aren't cheap though... Although I guess that varies depending on where you are (Las Vegas and Southend - the only two places where you can pay for sex with chips🤣)
What does happy actually mean and how is it measured. I am happy one day and less happy another day due to a variety of things which pretty much have nothing to do with money. Having money can reduce worry, allow you to do what you want etc, but won’t necessarily bring any noticeable increase in daily happiness.
I suppose it increases the number of minutes where you are in a happy state in a given day but if that was only 10 minutes in 24 hours how much difference is that?
What does happy actually mean and how is it measured. I am happy one day and less happy another day due to a variety of things which pretty much have nothing to do with money.
This is a whole value:price thing though, isn’t it. You have the freedom to ignore the price of something and simply to enjoy its value. Imagine if your whole world, every choice you made had to first calculated to see what the cost was.
Those with little money have little choice and the value is always or at least usually subservient to the price. It’s not a nice way to live. If you can flip that relationship, I think this is where money can actually make you happy.
As others have said, less miserable, more choice, more freedom. Not total freedom, but a lot more of it.
We have enough money to afford a dog and to feed him well / cover vets bills etc.
On a £ per happiness ratio it is the best 'thing' we (or certainly me) have ever done.
Spring flowers in the park. Sunset walk on a beach etc
I agree with that, what money could provide is having more time to do those things.
I won’t be able to retire till I’m 67 and even then I’m not sure if it will be affordable. I have always said give me a million and we could retire, pay off mortgage which is small admittedly and some other debt, pay someone to complete the refurb of our flat possibly, although I would then have the time to do it myself! Leave us with 800,000, hopefully earn 5% on that, 40K with no debt would be just about manageable.
However it wouldn’t afford us a lavish lifestyle but we would have time to ride, walk, play a bit of golf and maybe some casual work or volunteering. Holidays for us are usually Scotland, The Lakes or Dale’s those kind of things so having a bit more time to explore the UK would also be great.
I have never understood why when you have enough money to retire that you don’t, you just work more and accumulate more.
I think that money provides choices and time.
I think having money gives you more options / flexibility and less stress.
However I think to earn lots of money means you have to work very hard which equals less options / flexibility and more stress
I think there does become a point though where money becomes meaningless and people can afford everything without having to think if they can afford it. At that point I think happiness actually will go down
No mortgage would make the biggest difference to my quality of life without heading in to lottery win territory.
There are also things that can cost nothing that can make one happy.
Spring flowers in the park. Sunset walk on a beach e
tc
I suspect that these are also related to money in that they could make you happy but if you are in the red they might not unless you have a supreme ability to disengage different parts of your life. You need enough money to keep your head above water otherwise all your energy is spend on paddling furiously
I have never understood why when you have enough money to retire that you don’t, you just work more and accumulate more.
it’s back my fave question of how much is enough 🙂
It’s actually a hard one, unless you have a stunning pension if you stop working there’s no guarantee you can just pick up from where you left if you do leave and decide later you want to resume working.
I honestly think that you can never accumulate enough as there are too many variables but then piling all your money into a fantastic pension that you may never get the benefit of 🙁
Leave us with 800,000, hopefully earn 5% on that, 40K with no debt would be just about manageable.
this does assume, I think, that you would plan to leave an approx 800k inheritance to someone, plus your property. If you were to just leave the property you could also draw down the capital by somewhere around 20k a year, especially in the first 10 or so years of retirement and probably never run out.
However I think to earn lots of money means you have to work very hard which equals less options / flexibility and more stress
I think that’s the biggest lie ever perpetuated by the rich who don’t want you to realise it’s luck or who you know. 🙂
My partner is a psychiatrist - all her clients are loaded beyond what we (well, I) can imagine. And they are ****ed up. Especially the ones from rich families who didn't have to work for it. So it's true. It can't buy you happiness but it can buy you appointments with a top psychiatric hospital and all the drugs you need to live in oblivion. Joy
My partner is a psychiatrist - all her clients are loaded beyond what we (well, I) can imagine. And they are ****ed up. Especially the ones from rich families who didn't have to work for it. So it's true. It can't buy you happiness but it can buy you appointments with a top psychiatric hospital and all the drugs you need to live in oblivion. Joy
I’m sure that’s true. But, genuine question, are messed up poor people just unable to afford the help?
Poor people can't buy oblivion in the same way, if that's what you're on about.
Once you have a certain amount of money, more money doesn’t buy you happiness. How much money someone regards as enough will vary person to person. Growing up I wanted enough to but a house, car and provide for my family and our future (pension). We have X amount each month and live month to month. More money would have just meant more stuff (holidays, newer car, fancier stuff) but may of provided less worry /stress when an unexpected bill landed. Now as I am older how much I need is falling (kids older, mortgage ending etc) and I don’t really want for more money TBH and have adapted to what I have and planning to have less in the future as I wind down. More money may bring me more experiences such as travel but I would not want a bigger house or a Ferrari in the drive. I look at my sister in London who has the big house ( £3mill+) drives a big Volvo, kids went to private school, holidays abroad etc. is she any happier? I don’t think so, seems to have a lot of similar worries to me. It’s all relative.
This is a whole value:price thing though, isn’t it. You have the freedom to ignore the price of something and simply to enjoy its value. Imagine if your whole world, every choice you made had to first calculated to see what the cost was.
The tough but is at the bottom where the prices you are looking at are life’s essentials. That’s really tough and stressful.
But lots of people are looking at the price of non essentials and then you hit this elastic world of whats normal.
I have a well off cousin. Great guy. Works hard and spends his money on his wife kids and parents. He told me this story that he knows is mental
He was trying to work out where the money was going. So he started looking at some bills. Being in IT guy telly is streamed and non of them were worrying about what they spent. Turns out in a month they spent £250 on renting and buying films and tv series
My partner is a psychiatrist - all her clients are loaded beyond what we (well, I) can imagine. And they are *ed up. Especially the ones from rich families who didn't have to work for it. So it's true. It can't buy you happiness but it can buy you appointments with a top psychiatric hospital and all the drugs you need to live in oblivion. Joy
That's a tiny sub set of the financially loaded though - the happy ones don't have visits to psychiatrists. And at the other end of the financial pyramid I suspect there are multiple time more *ed up people doing the deed with much cheaper drugs without professional help or comfy rooms. They might just not be so visible (or rather we have collectively learnt to be blind to them); it's just the posh ones we like to tut at, throwing away a seemingly easy life.
I do (or did) spend a lot of time with the exceptionally rich at work and whilst I'm not sure I buy the too much money makes you unhappy line, I would say that loads of money buys you time and entitlement. And some people seem to be predisposed to use those assets to be way too self involved and introspective - and sometimes don't like what they see. The busy poor (as opposed to the not working poor) are too busy getting through the grind of life to navel gaze.
Money doesn't buy happiness, but it does buy options!
Plus this
Someone once said that sex was like oxygen, it's only important when you're not getting enough. Applied equally as well to money.
MUCH more applicable to money IMO.
Having had times of being flush and times of being much less so, I'd say the main benefit of having money is not having to worry about money.
There are also things that can cost nothing that can make one happy.
Spring flowers in the park. Sunset walk on a beach etc
If you are lucky enough to like those sorts of things and have access to them.
When you're stressed and miserable, these things tend not to have an effect.
Spring flowers in the park. Sunset walk on a beach etc
I know what you're getting at, but spring flowers and sunsets are no use to people who are making the choice between feeding their families, paying the rent and/or heating the house.
Money can't buy happiness, no, but the lack of it can absolute buy misery.
Could we start again with a clear definition of happiness?
Could we start again with a clear definition of happiness?
and a definition of rich or the sums of money involved in the equation.
Much the same as growing up in Arran,Skye maybe Ullapool watching amazing sunrise/sunset and the peacefulness yet you have no chance of ever buying a house to live there due to all the rich folk with so much cash paying over the odds
Not much happiness if you can't afford to live where you were brought up
However I think to earn lots of money means you have to work very hard which equals less options / flexibility and more stress
I think that’s the biggest lie ever perpetuated by the rich who don’t want you to realise it’s luck or who you know. 🙂
I'm so glad someone called that out as nonsense
Yeah money doesn't buy happiness... But 'enough' saves a lot of stress.
I don't have to worry about my rent and/or service charges going up, and if my washing machine brakes down.. It's just an annoyance rather than a financial crisis.
My definition of "rich" is being in good health. Thereafter never needing think about what size the supermarket bill is or paying the other bills.
After decades where it was paycheck to paycheck and large items needed loans/credit cards I am happy that I know there is enough coming in to cover outgoings plus a decent reserve in savings/investments.
But TBH I can't say I am much happier. I still do much the same things I always did. A few more big holidays and running two cars rather than one for the household.
But I was never properly poor. I would suggest anyone who is poor enough to need to choose between heating or eating would be very happy indeed with another £10k or whatever per year.
However I think to earn lots of money means you have to work very hard which equals less options / flexibility and more stress
I think that’s the biggest lie ever perpetuated by the rich who don’t want you to realise it’s luck or who you know.
This is certainly true some of the time, but my experience of the corporate world is that a lot of higher paid roles do demand more hours, higher output and come with significantly higher pressure.
Certain sectors with well-paid specialist roles such as IT may be insulated from this to some extent though.
However I think to earn lots of money means you have to work very hard which equals less options / flexibility and more stress
I think that’s the biggest lie ever perpetuated by the rich who don’t want you to realise it’s luck or who you know.
This is certainly true some of the time, but my experience of the corporate world is that a lot of higher paid roles do demand more hours, higher output and come with significantly higher pressure.
Certain sectors with well-paid specialist roles such as IT may be insulated from this to some extent though.
If you are at the top of the game, maybe.. We've had a few people at my last place who are basically 'permanent' contractors on crazy day rates as they have leverage.. They know damn well it will cost the company a shit load more to bring new people in to not only do the job as well but the time it would take for anyone to get up to speed with all the intricate things about the job.
It doesn't really work for most though unless you have a niche /angle.
That's exactly the kind of exception I was talking about mattyfez.
Got any of those roles going at the mo?
Money doesn't buy happiness but it does give you choice, make good choices and you can be happier
I do remember a documentary a few years ago about the really young lottery winner, Think she was 16/17 when she won. She was sweet but a bit daft and she said the most brilliant thing (without realising how brilliant it was)
They say money can't buy you happiness but I disagree, it can buy you a jet ski. Have you ever seen a miserable person driving a jet ski?
Not sure if its age or cost of living rises in excess of what was once deemed normal, but I could do with some more money. 🙂
We have a mad family income (mostly earnt from my wife now), and equally mad outgoings due to one private school and a drawn out court case trying to get other son into the right setting for him. I/we are normally very good with money, more recently I am really really good trying to clear down debt etc, pay off CC's and loans. Doing really well after two years at it.
I dont need any new bikes, they are are all really good. What has made a difference recently is stepping off the newish car conveyor belt. I have started doing all my own work on my 12 year old VW van. Van is now mechanically mint, loan I have always had is now gone so its payback time. Its really working. I am starting to have cash spare each month, and nothing on CC's. Feels really good after years of the grind
it can buy you a jet ski. Have you ever seen a miserable person driving a jet ski?
It can also buy you a sniper rifle and a bloody good lawyer to get you off the murder* charge for offing the smiling jet ski rider.
*though to be fair, if you've just written that on an internet forum, they'll have to be a bloody bloody good lawyer.
That's exactly the kind of exception I was talking about mattyfez.
Got any of those roles going at the mo?
Sorry, I'm semi-retired, I am OUT of the rat race!
Do you need someone to mow your lawn? I'm your man 😉
They say money can't buy you happiness but I disagree, it can buy you a jet ski. Have you ever seen a miserable person driving a jet ski?
Yep that donut who thought he’d touch a container ship for a laugh , he wasn’t smiling when it went south..
He might even be on here 🙂
My partner is a psychiatrist -
So presumably doesn't see rich happy people and the poor unhappy ones are much less likely to seek medical care or get as far as seeing a psych.
They say money can't buy you happiness but I disagree, it can buy you a jet ski. Have you ever seen a miserable person driving a jet ski?
Yep that donut who thought he’d touch a container ship for a laugh , he wasn’t smiling when it went south..
What an absolute tool... I don't even know where to start with all the things they did wrong... they really deserved to drown acting like that THB.
As far as I’m concerned, money may not buy you happiness, but it can buy you a more comfortable form of misery. 🤷🏼♂️
Spring flowers in the park. Sunset walk on a beach etc
Why does it have to be such wholesome stuff TJ? What about coke and hookers?
He lives in Leith - theres already coke in the park and hookers on the beach shore 24/7 🙂
We have enough money to afford a dog and to feed him well / cover vets bills etc.
On a £ per happiness ratio it is the best 'thing' we (or certainly me) have ever done.
When our angelic black Labrador got cancer😭, having got some £££ in the bank (c/o bailing out of a company that had been wrecked in a reverse takeover, taking an early pension in the process) to pay for whatever treatment was the 'right' treatment and whadoing rhe very best for the fella, without having to worry about the cost, was a huge blessing.
Being in a position where the vet bill for the right treatment is going to be too much (a 5 figure sum by the end) to be able to pay, and having have them put down instead, must be an utterly miserable situation for anyone to find themselves in.
Having a dog and getting out with him every day is what keeps me sane !
