[Closed] Monbiot on the psychology of left and right (political content)

I'd make the same case for being strongly left-wing too though... at least in the real world rather than a utopian ideal.

I have often asked myself if it is possible to be staunchly right-wing AND have a high degree of empathy and compassion at the same time. I tend to think not.

Then you'd be wrong.

Elaborate, druidh?

The guy is a bandwagoning self adoring git of the highest order, I'm surprised he's not made a dash for leader of the country

Interesting article, thanks 'grips

molgrips - Member
Elaborate, druidh?

I'm guessing he's thinking of the huge number of US millionaires who donate large amounts of money to charity, for example Bill Gates, Warren Buffet...

IMHO he/you got it wrong when you started talking about "left wing" and "right wing" as if a particular ideology has to be one side or the other.

So here we are, forming an orderly queue at the slaughterhouse gate. The punishment of the poor for the errors of the rich

what's that? Monbiot, poor, on Guardian wages? I think not.

That's actually quite insulting.

I have often asked myself if it is possible to be staunchly right-wing AND have a high degree of empathy and compassion at the same time. I tend to think not.

I tend to find that the those on the left side of the argument have an intrinsically lower expectation of the behaviour of their fellow humans. It is therefore perceived as a requirement that we have an arbiter to regulate and monitor the activities of citizens rather than trust them to behave.

The right wing tend perceive the same problems of injustice and unfairness and in my experience are just as invested in resolving the issues, they just tend not to believe that the government is the way to fix them and that the government does in fact distort the ability of society to work in a fair and just manner.

Ones political standing ultimately has no bearing on your capacity for compassion, just the way that you believe it should be implemented in society.

I'm guessing he's thinking of the huge number of US millionaires who donate large amounts of money to charity, for example Bill Gates, Warren Buffet...

I dont believe there is ever true altruism, i'd imagine the gestures are possibly to sway the guilt of having obscene amounts of capital at their disposal, and define large? Would it even dent the balance of their interest earned?

U31, it's not a recent phenomena I think it was Carnegie who said "He who dies rich dies Shamed" He gave away something like $4bil (in current value) and built something daft like 3000 libraries.

I'd make the same case for being strongly left-wing too though...

I get waht torminalis is getting at but it is a great over simplificatioon with slightly snidey overtones

those on the left side of the argument have an intrinsically lower expectation of the behaviour of their fellow humans

Torminalis - history has shown many times that people who are driven to get to the top will frequently do so treading on the backs of others. So if the right wing thinks that the world will naturally tend to a state of generosity and enlightened compassion, they are wrong.

People aren't often able to understand the suffering of people they don't know personally - and this seems far more true of those who have 'right wing' politics in my experience.

Right wing: "it's their own fault for being poor, so stuff 'em" ... ? (discuss)

which give away your sympathies

Not intended to be snidey but your assumption about my political leanings is correct.

I do not try to hide my sympathies, I am quite open about the fact I spend quite a lot of time trying to reconcile my libertarian fantasies with my abundant compassion. 😆

I dont believe there is ever true altruism, i'd imagine the gestures are possibly to sway the guilt of having obscene amounts of capital at their disposal, and define large? Would it even dent the balance of their interest earned?

I think the plan was to give away 99% of their wealth, which although it would probably still leave more than I'll learn in my whole lifetime, will definitely dent the "balance of their interest earned".

That is beacuse you lack emoathy and cannot see how much we have

And you're betraying your lack of empathy in your assuming that I'm a right winger... 😉

Sometimes it is thier own fault for being poor, Mol...
Look at the generations of council estate charvers whos only aspiration in life seems to amount to eating pasties and imbibing Stella...

The wife came from one of those estates and did the best she could to climb up off that upbringing and do the best she can. Others in her family adhere to stereotype.

Im not saying we are well off by any means, but we are trying at least, no drinking (or partaking!) except on saturday night, and never in front of the kids. Trying instil values in the kids such as work is better then being a "Pasty Mum" (ie, squirting out kids for a house and state handouts, when the kid cries, thats ok, stuff a pasty in its gob)

history has shown many times that people who are driven to get to the top will frequently do so treading on the backs of others. So if the right wing thinks that the world will naturally tend to a state of generosity and enlightened compassion, they are wrong.

History has shown many times that left wing ideals in the real world get abused and don't work. Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong

Right wing: "it's their own fault for being poor, so stuff 'em" ... ? (discuss)

Left wing - people are too stupid to make the right decisions so we'll make them for them.

Equally stupid generalisation, molgrips 🙄

So if the right wing thinks that the world will naturally tend to a state of generosity and enlightened compassion, they are wrong.

The big question is: can this change? The focus of our evolution these days is not physical or mental but rather social and the internet and communication technologies are changing this quicker than we could have imagined.

Will there come a point when government is no longer actually required because we have found our perfectly transparent markets for everything from human rights to wris****ches?

Sometimes it is thier own fault for being poor, Mol...

Right.. so why are the aspirations of those people so limited?

Beats me...

Right.. so why are the aspirations of those people so limited?

Government does not grow by seizing our freedoms, but by assuming our responsibilities. – Michael Cloud

no drinking (or partaking!) except on saturday night, and never in front of the kids

Not having that argument, Torminalis, this kind of behaviour existed way before social security

Right.

Are they just being conditioned by their lifestyles?

Another seemingly right-wing tendency I have observed is to not bother to try and understand why people do the things they do.. perhaps tied to empathy?

Before social security, you starved or relied on the kindness of your family/community if you were not prepared/able to work.

The culture of dependency that we have at the moment is a direct result of people having the option. There will always be lazy people and power to them, I am one of them to a certain extent, I just have sufficient compassion (see what I did there?) for my fellow man not to be a burden upon them.

A racer... Meaning i'm not in any way an alchie or a druggie...
There existence isnt hidden from the kids, we just demonstrate they need not be an everyday thing condusive to living.

Badly worded by me in the original post. The kids have of course accompanied us to pub meals, where a pint has been drunk...

You seem to be having problems understanding the right wing, molgrips - maybe you should try harder to empathise with them?

Meaning i'm not in any way an alchie or a druggie...

Maybe I'm just not empathising!

not bother to try and understand why people do the things they do

I was just trying to offer a suggestion as to why I thought that we now have an underclass who depend on the rest of us to subsidise their lifestyles. I am not trying to blame individuals (though there are no doubt individuals who could be blamed), I am saying it is a systemic fault with the way we organise ourselves.

Make any assumptions you like about me, they will inevitably be wrong, I am just trying to liven up the debate.

Before social security, you starved or relied on the kindness of your family/community if you were not prepared/able to work.

Lol! That worked really well didn't it?

What if you had no friends or family?

maybe you should try harder to empathise with them?

Isn't that what this thread is about?

It seems to me that many of the right wing persuasion don't understand that not everyone is capable of pulling themselves out of a hole. And that if they are't, they don't deserve to be on the scrapheap.

The right wing are easy to understand and as such harder to empathise with.

They use statements like these,

When government accepts responsibility for people, then people no longer take responsibility for themselves. –

To claim that the we'd be better off without the state, or that should be they'd be better off without the state and f*ck everyone else.

Isn't that what this thread is about?

not really - as far as I can work out, it's just another thread with stupid 'my views are better than yours' comments being bandied about.

Some right wingers are complete ****s so are some left wingers. To try and negatively characterise a whole group because they don't agree with your views is just stupid and suggests that you lack real empathy for anyone who doesn't immediately fit in with your views or view of the world. Pretty much like the stereotypical little Englander who doesn't like darkies, chavs, the unemployed, single mums etc because, 'well, they're different, aren't they?'.

I only drink on Saturday night, as that is our night off? Fairly hard to grasp, i know, but hey ho..
I dont drink or do other stuff during the week, as it is'nt at the core of my existance, but i do take it for recreation on my saturday night out.
The kids know we go out to drink, it isnt in any way hidden as a guilty secret.

It seems to me that many of the right wing persuasion don't understand that not everyone is capable of pulling themselves out of a hole. And that if they are't, they don't deserve to be on the scrapheap.

I am a right winger and I do not believe that people should be encouraged to fall by the wayside but that seems to be what our current system does.

not really - as far as I can work out, it's just another thread with stupid 'my views are better than yours' comments being bandied about.

That wasn't what I wanted it to be.

To try and negatively characterise a whole group because they don't agree with your views is just stupid

Clearly.

The issue is [b]whether or not[/b] there are tendencies to be observed within those two groups (those holding left or right wing views).

I would love an intelligent debate about the ideas discussed in the article.. even if the result is that it's bollx. I'm not holding Monbiot up as a champion but I do think this article is one of the most insightful I've read - in places! I don't much care for the tribalist aspects of it.

I do not believe that people should be encouraged to fall by the wayside but that seems to be what our current system does.

Quite possibly. Very difficult challenge tho. Simply cutting or withdrawing benefits is going to hurt too many innocent people I fear.

So where do i lie in all this?
I class myself as ideally a Marxist, yet i know it can never work in this world, so vote Conservative as the best working alternative

Which neatly demonstrates the stupidity of trying to label people as right or left wing and making assumptions about them on that basis alone.

I'd love Marxism to work, but i'm not stupid enough to believe that all Pigs are equal to other Pigs. Some are always more equal than others

The issue is whether or not there are tendencies to be observed within those two groups

It is not just two groups though, it is a whole spectrum of often contradictory beliefs, and that is before we get onto the authoritarian/libertarian X/Y axis of the graph and quite possibly other axis that we have not thought of.

Which neatly demonstrates the stupidity of trying to label people as right or left wing and making assumptions about them on that basis alone.

That's why I don't do it 🙂

I'm thinking about people I've known and talked to at length, and the similarities I've noticed in their attitudes.

It is not just two groups though

It is when you have to put your X in the box though - unfortunately 🙁

So where do i lie in all this?
I class myself as ideally a Marxist, yet i know it can never work in this world, so vote Conservative as the best working alternative

You're very confused?

As Junkyard says - people who do caring jobs that help other people, usually for relatively low pay, tend to be leftish.

But of course people who pursue money over everything else are just as caring and empathetic 😕

Monbiot is an irritating get btw - but he still sometimes makes valid points.

That's why I don't do it

I have often asked myself if it is possible to be staunchly right-wing AND have a high degree of empathy and compassion at the same time. I tend to think not.

Right wing: "it's their own fault for being poor, so stuff 'em" ... ?

It seems to me that many of the right wing persuasion don't understand that not everyone is capable of pulling themselves out of a hole

aracer, you just vindicated me.

Read carefully - those statements are not claims about the groups of people in question. They are questions posed and tentative reactions based on the limited number of people I've spoken to in depth, intended to start a debate.

That's why the middle one ends in a question mark and is followed by the word "discuss" (which you left off).

I often wonder if it's possible to drive a Prius on not be a deluded person trying to be holier than thou. Not in my experience.

Molgrips - fake-green, pious tryhard.

Discuss.

I often wonder if it's possible to drive a Prius on not be a deluded person trying to be holier than thou. Not in my experience.

Have you seen the South Park episode?

I often wonder if it's possible to drive a Prius on not be a deluded person trying to be holier than thou. Not in my experience.

Wtf?

Where was I holier than thou?

I've said a dozen times on here my carbon footprint is sh*t.

Lol. I wasn't serious. Just making the point that asking an insult as a question or adding 'discuss' at the end will be taken as an insult. As you did as it happens. Sorry, thought the point was obvious enough not to need explanation.

There are selfish right wing twunts, and ****less idiots who might be left wing if they ever thought about anything. So what?

Monbiot says

People with strong intrinsic values must cease to be embarrassed by them.

I wonder if he'd say that about anti-abortion anti-evolution Christian nutters, or Stalinist communists?

The trouble is once we start waving our values and our certainties around - we define ourselves as being different from others with different "values"

molgrips - Member
Which neatly demonstrates the stupidity of trying to label people as right or left wing and making assumptions about them on that basis alone.
That's why I don't do it

I'm thinking about people I've known and talked to at length, and the similarities I've noticed in their attitudes.

It is not just two groups though
It is when you have to put your X in the box though - unfortunately

Given that this country hasn't had a left-wing government for over 30 years, right-wingers must be the larger of the two groups.

Oh, sorry.. been a lot of arguing on here today, I seem to have my narky specs on 8)

I didn't mean to assert that the right wing thing WAS true - just trying to start a discussion in a lame way.

Look, sorry for coming over as attacking the right wingers, but I do sometimes struggle to see the compassion in the actions of the Tories here or the Grand Old Party in the USA.

Can anyone explain?

I do sometimes struggle to see the compassion in the actions of the Tories here or the Grand Old Party in the USA.

I tend to agree actually, especially about the GOP but that's just a comment on implementation not the beliefs or values themselves, in the same way that it's stupid to say that communists are murderous bastards because Stalin's communism was.

What does the right-wing path mean to you then?

[b]Molgrips[/b].

vaguely left wing myself, but how is bankrupting the economy and rewarding people for being indolent sofa-dwellers and developing dependency over responsibility a good thing for anyone?

How safe does a safety net have to be?

It doesn't. As above, it's not a simple one axis thing is it. There's social and fiscal aspects for starters which can be linked but in humans, contradictory as we are, can end up with opposing sides in different matters.

Ok. Bankrupting the economy is not left wing ideology, for a start. That's down to how specific governments behave.

Left wing ideas aren't the last Labour govt or even any Labour govt.

With regards the sofa dwellers:

People are varied, complicated and devious. It's impossible to design the social security system to perfectly weed out all the scroungers. Therefore is it not better to be over-generous than under?

I believe that a social security system is vital. I do not believe it's good to reward lazy scroungers; no-one does. Not even Guardian readers. That's a poor straw-man.

The real question though is how to identify those that really need help? And what about those that have difficulty working?

One of my favourite films is One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest. When most people see it they think Nurse Ratched is the evil emotionless establishment suppressing our spirited hero. My reading of it is that she is in fact the embodiment of compassion.

It is her job in the asylum to ensure peace and safety for the majority of the inmates, even at the ultimate expense of the minority. She represents the willingness of the compassionate majority to enforce certain standards of behaviour and decency.

Personally I think that we need our Nurse Ratcheds in this world, but so many people get squeamish when it comes to the brutal compassion that must be dished out that the image of the bleeding heart liberal persists.

Discuss. 😉

aracer, you just vindicated me.

those statements are not claims about the groups of people in question. They are questions posed

Personally I think that we need our Nurse Ratcheds in this world, but so many people get squeamish when it comes to the brutal compassion that must be dished out that the image of the bleeding heart liberal persists.

Interesting. More specific examples?

Aracer - people can be broadly placed into two camps along the lines of political ideas.

The question is, are those ideas intrinsic or resulting from certain personality traits? If it were the latter, then you could group personalities into political groups..?

Btw saying "I tend to think.." is intended to mean that I am not sure but there may be something in it. And as such I'd have thought it would invite further discussion.

The point I was trying to make is that empathy and compassion are not always the same thing or what people think they are.

For example, at the moments the Tories are steeling themselves to make deep cuts which Monbiot argues is an act that lacks compassion. The view could be taken though that they are just delivering the inevitable bad news and doing their best to deliver the required cuts as fairly as possible. It might in fact show a marked lack of compassion for the next generation if we were to continue to squander their legacy and run up debts.

Now you and I know that the tories are a bunch of self serving ****ers but as stated above, they reflect the implementation and not the ideology. The previous governments, left or right, have not been compassionate or responsible and to now point the finger at the Tories because they are taking the decision forced upon them by the previous administrations is not seeing the whole picture. Compassion can be complex but I think there are very few people out there who would let their neighbours starve, regardless of political persuasion.

Empathy and compassion are all very laudable no doubt, but without the creation of wealth, there's nothing that can be done about the object of your concern.

Pop quiz. Who said:

"“No one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd only had good intentions - he had money too”

That is quite true, Woppit.

Which is why societies are almost all partially capitalist.

The left wing part comes in when you start reining in that capitalism. Most of us are of course quite close to the middle ground in real terms.

Torminalis - agreed. The current issues are really economic rather than ideological I think. The question is, how much cuts can the economy stand? But then again, the Tories might feel it is ok to cut things that Labour might thing are essential.

It's a bell curve, as usual.

Amusingly with reference to Warren Buffett mentioned earlier - he's a Democrat, or as Americans go a left winger. Now go figure.

So, this tells me that people with ambition don't care about anyone else.
People who don't do so well in life do.
Come on, it's absurd.
People don't fit into neat boxes which psychologists like them to. There are millions of people in the UK and they're not "left" or "right", they're individuals each capable of every emotion (empathy, ambition, greed etc). Some people do well just by working hard, a result is increased income. They didn't necessarily ****t their way up and may well care about people just as much as the average union rep does. IMHO.

People do have politial alignments, most of us stick to them pretty closely. So from that point of view, we are indeed left and right.

And psychologists don't put people into boxes, they categories people along whatever lines they are studying. That's not the same as labelling the entire person.

So, this tells me that people with ambition don't care about anyone else.
People who don't do so well in life do.

You're confusing 'do' and 'don't' with 'tend to'

People do have politial alignments, most of us stick to them pretty closely

Some people do well just by working hard, a result is increased income.

Says a lot that your only definition of 'doing well' is earning more money.

Psychologists can categorise all they like but a persons political beliefs have no more baring on their emotions than their choice in music or sport.

The concept was the other way around. That your emotions (or psychological make-up) could be reasonably expected to affect the way you vote, could it not?

You misunderstand, a result of doing well (in the most widely used and understood sense of the term) is increased income. See "doing well for him/herself". Please don't try and insinuate alternative meaning for my comments.

But the people that work hard and succeed, do they suddenly start voting Tory?

The concept was the other way around. That their emotions (or psychological make-up) could be reasonably expected to affect the way you vote, could it not?

Yes, it could. I just don't agree that right wingers would vote for a certain party just to see others suffer. It doesn't sit nicely with me to believe that people would think like that. I would hope that these people had many different reasons to vote for whoever that just spite. Or it could have been that their chosen party seemed the best of a bad lot.

But the people that work hard and succeed, do they suddenly start voting Tory?

I just don't agree that right wingers would vote for a certain party just to see others suffer

You really think that's what I'm saying? 😯

But the people that work hard and succeed, do they suddenly start voting Tory?

What makes you think they did?

Wtf? I don't think they did?! I asked a question, you know, one of those things that you say when you don't know something?

In a roundabout sense, yes. You imply that right wing people are not capable of empathy which insinuates that they don't care about anyone. That if they vote a certain way, certain people will be worse off. It would be like claiming that left wing people are incapable of feeling embarrassment or greed.
I'm tired and have to be up early so it's off to bed for me. Nice talking with you molgrips.
Edit, I don't think people change their voting just because of their personal circumstances, at least I would hope not. No need for the sarcasm.

That if they vote a certain way, certain people will be worse off

That doens't follow at all. Not caring about the poor is not the same as actively voting to make them more miserable.

Fair comment, I sometimes don't express myself as I would like to in written form.
Goodnight.

I knew the second I clicked this link it'd be the same names going on about the same stuff. Why do some of you lot sound so defensive and soooooo right in your opinions/life. Uptight, every thing is allright! **** left or right, just be nice! Why do you have to define youself by some political agenda? it's all the same crap. I think everyone should be forced to be nice, by law, then we'd wheedle out the ****s. Nice people would have it easy!

Kelvin McKenzie on taxation:

"I don't like the government spending MY MONEY!!!"