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Has anyone got any experience of changing a woodburning stove which is 5-8 years old for a brand new more efficient model? We have a Charnwood country 12 multifuel, which is great, but uses a lot of fuel. I asked in a stove shop if there was a newer model available, which would use less fuel and give out the same amount of heat. They said there were no 12 KWh stoves available in the modern design as they give out so much heat at lower capacity that there is no need for such large kWh.
They directed me to a Dik Geurts Ivar 8, which apparently runs at 8-10Kwh (whatever that means). I do like the look of that stove, the controllability and clean burn, along with the ability to connect it to an external air vent, so preventing at least one draft for the house.
Is the reduction in KWh noticeable ? We were staying with friends who have a Charnwood Aire 5, which was great, all evening it only used a handful of logs and gave out serious heat, with a lovely flame.
Unfortunately I don’t have central heating, so the woodburning stove is the most environmental, efficient and affective form of heating for me. I would love gas central heating.
Charnwood don't really make a 'bad' stove, but the larger Country models are easily their poorest. Really big stoves in general aren't great unless worked hard heating an enormous space.
I swapped out a friends giant old Charnwood a while back, in the house she had bought, for a Parkray Aspect 5. She was very dubious as it's about half the physical size. More heat, easier to run, with a lovely flame and very frugal, as you noted with your friends Aire.
The Dik Guerts stuff is very nice, you'd see a big difference I'm sure.
They might have a range of burn power (8-10) as it will vary based on fuel used.
I know mine needs less fuel and gets hotter if i use oak.
Reminds me, need to order some more wood...
Not wanting to side track OPs question, but as some people on here are looking at new stoves and have their ear to the ground etc...Is there any talk from suppliers, shops etc of what's on the horizon in the way of cleaner stoves, stoves with filters etc (not that it probably works like that).
We're looking for a new wood burner soon as well, so good to know if it's worth holding out a little longer if there's new tech coming.
We've a Stovax Riva, 8 kwh (installed 11 years ago) plus it's got the flue internally in the room and sits away from the wall, both of which are worth some heat too.
The room it's in is a decent size, 5mx8m and 2.5 storeys high plus opens into the top floor corridor as well as open-plan thru to the oil-fired AGA at the other 'end' of the house. Rural with no gas, and no other heating (except for towel rails running off the AGA).
We only buy kiln-dried wood, and it's pretty economical - 2-3 logs every hour as once up to heat (15-20 mins) we turn it right down. We tried just using seasoned logs, but the usage is a lot higher and also more temperamental
Just how big is the room/building that a 12kwh stove was put in in the first place?
Useful thread, hadn't thought about kiln dried being worth the extra, although in our main lounge i've always been very pleased with how slowly our burner chews through a seasoned log if it's on a trickle setting.
We have one in our snug and while it's pretty inefficient we don't really use it enough to give us the payback to consider replacing. Is it an easy job just to replace it yourself? - or is there some kind of regs to say that when you replace the burner the flume/chimney needs to be bought up to spec?
Any other ways of improving efficiency for the O,p, whats people's experience of the little 3 blade windmills on top of a wood burner?
We’re looking for a new wood burner soon as well, so good to know if it’s worth holding out a little longer if there’s new tech coming.
I doubt it's possible to properly clean the emissions from a domestic stove, too small, inconsistent burn temperature and too much soot at the start (just block any filter). They just need banning outright.
I am using kiln dried wood at the moment, but also have some wood seasoning in the shed.
I have a stove top fan, it doesn’t increase efficiency, but does help spread the heat.
Our stove fitter said the same thing, Charnwood don’t make as bad stove.
The difference in efficiency is huge between the Country 12 and the Aire. The place I stumbled across sold Charnwood, Contura and Dik Geurts among others, and they thought the Ivar 8 was the largest KWh clean burning, traditional looking stove there was.
The room is large, with no other heating, I keep the door open so the heat goes out into the hall as much as it can.
we use a couple of those stove fans on top of our 8kw clearview, and they definitely help to push the air gently around the rest of the house. its not a dramatic difference, but you can certainly tell.
I have a stove top fan, it doesn’t increase efficiency, but does help spread the heat.
TBH, i find i can reduce the amount of time the fire is going. Get all that lovely warm air spread out across the entire floor. Then let it go out.
They just need banning outright.
Yup, anywhere there is a viable alternative.
They just need banning outright
why?
Can we not keep having the same argument every time WBS come up, this is about a specific question. Not all of us have the option for alternatives at the moment.
Can we not keep having the same argument every time WBS come up, this is about a specific question. Not all of us have the option for alternatives at the moment
😀
You could start a "what SUV for driving my child 1 mile to school and back" thread as a distraction....
Is there any talk from suppliers, shops etc of what’s on the horizon in the way of cleaner stoves, stoves with filters etc (not that it probably works like that).
Posted this the other day/week but you might not have seen:
https://exodraft.co.uk/product/particlefilter/esp-particle-filter/
So they do exist, but at £2,200 plus install (requires running an electrical connection to your chimney) plus electricity while in operation, not cheap. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who's used one.
Start with all the folk with gas central heating and stoves, once you’ve ‘fixed’ that you can then come after us who are off-grid.
That's 99% of the users in the UK. And probably 98% of the woodburnerists on here.
(requires running an electrical connection to your chimney)
Well that's me screwed then, couple of 48-72 hour powercuts and it'll be clogged solid.
flicker
You could start a “what SUV for driving my child 1 mile to school and back” thread as a distraction….
SUVs are sarcin for school dropoffs now, it's all about pickups, with bonus points for being named after something vaguely worrying or predatory like the Mitsubishi Barbarian, Ford Raptor or Nissan Rapist
That’s 99% of the users in the UK. And probably 98% of the woodburnerists on here.
Nonsense, it's 100% of the woodburnerists on here. The off grid ones don't have electricity to run their laptop.
n.b. I'm genuinely curious if there's anyone on here actually living off-grid, not just out of town and not on mains gas.
That’s 99% of the users in the UK. And probably 98% of the woodburnerists on here.<br /><br />
Care to show your working out for that math? 😁
Theres at least three off grid in this thread alone.
ok off mains gas and sewage network then.
Same boring arguments about wood burners from the eco brigade, yawn. I can see the argument for restricting the installation of wood burners in urban areas due to particulate issues. In rural areas where the only alternative is electric, gas or oil and houses tend to be old and lacking insulation, wood burners are essential, and the particulates far far less of an issue.
In my experience, you're best off burning dry wood, as hot as (safely) possible, in small quantities, that produces the most heat, most efficiency and lowest emissions.
12kw is massive, that’s enough to heat an average size house (assuming you could distribute the heat effectively.) How big is the rooms/rooms you need to heat. We’ve got a large (8x4m) room and 5kw is more than enough, in reality I suspect the output is much lower as we don’t run it full. Once up to temp we’re probably burning one ash log every 20-30mins, with the thing left to burn itself out for the last 3 hours.l and no more wood added. Plenty of heat! Ours is a Fireline FQ5 with the nice big window. <br /><br />
Had an oversized Morso in the last house: 10kw in a 4x4m room, installed by previous owner. Far too big but also a bugger to run at much lower output. I once cranked it up to max to see what it was like and got scared when the windows started rattling because it was drawing so much air in!
The efficiency question is an interesting one - I'm not sure how you can improve the efficiency of what is in effect a metal box that you burn stuff in. Assuming it has enough air flow and the exhaust gasses can escape easily, then how it's fitted and the quality of fuel you use is probably going to be more important.
Maybe efficiency is the wrong term here?
Op is your current stove really 12kw? The area must be huge to not feel like your inside an oven.
We always used to put coal in our multifuel stove, that gave the heat and the wood pretty flames. Not sure which one kills more baby robins though?
For most homes 8kw max is enough. When we used to have one 5kw was too much for our house.
Living in a pit village I have a few neighbours left alive entitled to "Board" coal for their Parkrays, many of the rest are burning oil, sometimes in vapourising Rayburns at =>13cc/hour 24/7. Let's keep stuff in perspective.
My gas boilers is 12kW, it throttles down to 9kW and that's still enough to roast the entire house!
The efficiency question is an interesting one
Efficiency comes from recycling the hot gasses for a secondary combustion so capturing more heat / producing less waste. To be honest its a simple design you see on most modern burners, and is usually indicated by having the second vent which feeds the recirculation. Im not sure one burner of this type to the next is going to be more efficient in a notable way. Quality of your wood will make a much bigger difference.
In my place a 5KW burner turns a cold room into a furnace (and we have big rooms) so I would imagine you'd only need bigger if you wanted to heat the whole house/a floor off it.
Yep, if Charnwood are to be believed, it is the Country 12, so 12kwh. It’s an 8m x 4m room, I keep the doors open so the heat can drift into other areas. I’ve got a stove thermometer so always run it at operating temperature.
Has anyone got a Dik Geurts?
To keep the anti wood burner brigade happy, perhaps the government should set a cost cap for heat. So regardless whether you use gas, electricity, oil, lpg the unit rate you pay for heat is the same. Nobody wants to be cold and using storage heaters.
It’s an 8m x 4m room, I keep the doors open so the heat can drift into other areas. I’ve got a stove thermometer so always run it at operating temperature.
Calculators are recommending a 4-6kw stove for a room that size .... unless your ceilings are 4m high? Something doesnt appear right with the output you are getting. Windows open too ?
As above, 4x8m here, with acres of glass and half of the room is double height vaulted... 5kw (modern stove) is more than enough. 12kw seems OTT.
Many modern US stoves have catalytic converters/filters . The stoves are huge and the cat sits above and separated from the main wood box. The stoves have bimetallic thermostatic control and then can be stuffed chock full of enough wood to heat a large house for 24 hours with the wood smoldering slowly in the main firebox while the cat burns the smoke and chucks the heat out . Overall efficiency up in the 90s. Ideal for a lot of places in the states but far too big for a typical house here. Interesting rigs though. Look up Blaze King Princess stoves for example.
I'm not sure a 5 ish kW stove would ever get more than the current secondary burn tech, but maybe cats will be introduced.
Mines a 6.8kW (nominal) in a ~40sqm room, that is effectively open plan to the rest of the 100sqm floor of the house.
The fan means that i warm the entire floor of the house. If i start at 15-16 degrees, the office (most distant room) gains 3 or 4 degrees after the fire has been run for 3 hours, the living room 8-10.
Without the fan, the living room would be uncomfortably hot after running for 3 hours. More like 15+ degrees gain, which is ridiculous.
Charnwood 16b here, upgraded from a 15b when the boiler finally gave way after 25+ years of service.
Rating is -The total output is 15.9kW – 8.6kW to the water and 2-8kW to the room
The heat output to the room drops a bit with the CH running as that cools the outside, but it is more than enough to warm the approx 40-50sgm family room/kitchen where it's located. we've never needed the radiators in this room and its a good size with plenty of glass.
OP for your room size the charnwood calculator recommends 3.84 kw, assuming a 2.4m ceiling height
I find my stove fan a bit underwhelming but it was a present from my brother and he’s a notorious cheapskate.
so off in a tangent for your stove fan recommendations then 😉
https://www.stirlingengine.co.uk/d.asp?product=VULCANSTOVEFAN
Everything else is a bit, well, rubbish.
Mines been running with no complaints for over a decade (not continually).
That is a lot for a fan ? It must be much better than the £25 Aldi one I bought lasted a few months but died , couldn't find the receipt
I've just bought a Morso 5660 to replace a useless inefficient castec firemaster, hardly used as they wanted a freestanding stove . 1/6th of the current price , a wee project for the end of the month
Danish stuff is usually good, well Lurpak is good
Not all stove fans are equal.
Ive one of the original ecofans. Will happily blow a helium balloon around the room silently.
I've a cheap one bought from Aldi that is noisy and makes the balloon move back and forward on the spot barely moving the air.
But then lots of people do believe them to be a placebo. I can believe why when I see some of the fans on market.
I replaced a 4kw stove with an 8kw stove with a fan. Happily keeps the house warm when running. The OCH just keeps the chill off for us returning.
As for people living in city's lobbying for them to be banned...............
I have opinions.
Use a small stove run hard. Don't buy kiln dried firewood get organised get a woodshed and season yourself - stop wasting energy please. Kiln dried is so wrong headed. No room for a woodshed? A stove probably isn't for you. Fans aren't worth it. The stove will set up its own convection currents in the room that makes the fan irrelevant.
I'm pretty lucky working in forestry getting by product firewood for free. One big woodshed and two small ones, helps with keeping soft and hard wood separate. Sole heat in a three bedroom house is a 5kw stove, heats the house well courtesy of an open plan stairwell and compact size. Nearest neighbour a long way away.
I don't think my heating could be any more environmentally friendly.
Fans aren’t worth it. The stove will set up its own convection currents in the room that makes the fan irrelevant.
Yeah somewhere about roof level. Handy if your 8ft tall or have low ceilings.
Interesting if catalytic stoves are still a thing in the US. Our previous house had an american Vermont Castings Intrepid II, with a catalyst chamber at the back. Rated about 5kw if I recall. I had understood it was an early attempt at clean burn technology, that hadn't "taken off". Anyway, once the flue was hot and drawing well, the flap at the top of the firebox to the flue was closed, then smoke had to exit bottom rear of the firebox, had some more air mixed in, then down through a catalyst. The outside of the cat chamber at the back ran very hot (400C I measured with IR thermometer), despite ceramic insulation on the inside round the cat.
The stove certainly kicked out a huge amount of heat, doors to the rest of house had to be open, while using relatively little wood.
Our current house has charnwood c8, in a 70m2 open plan room. Works well, nice big "portrait" format window, lots of heat for a log every 45-60 mins. External sealed air feed. Matches room size nicely imho.
Fans aren’t worth it. The stove will set up its own convection currents
Yup, a nice column of superheated air in a 2m diameter column around the fire. And a hot ceiling.
The fan has effectively halved my log consumption.
That is a lot for a fan ? It must be much better than the £25 Aldi one I bought lasted a few months but died , couldn’t find the receipt
Yes, not cheap. But it's really well made, runs beautifully well and circulates the air really effectively.
And if the house is quiet, you can hear the little chuf chuf chuf of the engine.