[Closed] Moan or be grateful?

Tell them now (calmly as you say) see how they react. If they accept your experience and modify the target accordingly, it might be worth staying. If they don't, start looking for another job.

Seems perfectly reasonable to manage expectations and goals. It's usually part of your requirements to sign of on reviews/appraisals/targets. So yeah, go for it.

What blokeuptheroad said,and given some of the content in your other thread ,start working  on an escape plan the will take you to a better place.

Life's too short an all that,good luck.

The proposal in the OP sounds perfectly reasonable to me and I would take that route, if it was me. I have a meeting this morning and I suspect I'll be in a similar position as you (in a different context) and my plan is 100% to outline to my superiors what my concerns are.

It’s usually part of your requirements to sign off

I do have to sign it off yes, at which point it becomes contractual.   Blokuptheroad thats exactly what should happen thanks, I wanted to test my logic and make sure I wasn't being a total idiot.   If they target has no substance then that would be revealed also, I think its reasonable to expect that it can be demonstrated with competence behind it.

@Duggan good luck and I'd be interested to know how it goes.

Cheers Kryton, meeting is in half an hour so we won't have to wait long, I will cross my fingers and report back.

Your plan makes sense. I’m reminded of the old SMART acronym. ‘Achievable’?

your route of influence is based on rational persuasion. You may want to consider extra influencing styles depending on the folks you’ll be trying to negotiate a change with. But you’re in sales so you’ll know that.

Let me know if a phrase like ‘we set this ambitious target because it’s what the company needs and we believe you are the one who can get it done’ turns up.

good luck. Meh, what’s the worst that happens? You find a new job and move on?

Or, accept it's unachievable and do the minimum to be not fired while collecting the 70%?

Long ago where I work I accepted that due to workload and resources (in my specialist area) I'd two choices, leave or just turn up (and do my 'hours').  If I worked 24/7 I'd still not get the work done.

I'm near retirement and CBA to go and get another job, so took the 2nd option.  Downsides?  I didn't get my personal bonus, and only got the basic payrise but on the flip-side I pretty much work the hours I want to, when I want to (in a role I can do blind-folded).  Also I have accepted that at some point I'll be laid off, but it's over 3 years now and still here (while colleagues have come & gone).

It's an option that might not be your vision, but if you 'play' it right it can work (even if just until you find something else and/or the company make changes).

There are quite a few articles aimed at CEO's advising them not to do this. That said, the advise is to lay off fast rather than attempt to reduce salaries and/or or increase / maintain peak time revenue targets.

Best co's are setting achievable targets based on current environment, or even moving their best sales people into customer success to reduce churn and increase spend with live clients, while purchasing slows significantly.

Bad co's are either naive to reality, or attempting the quiet layoff, where they hope you quit do to lack or rise / achievable targets.

Good luck sorting.

All things considered I'd consider this a subtle message from the great sky fairies that this is the time to get out of sales, and it's world of artificial and never ending/never satisfied targets and move to something less damaging mentally given that you have a nasty habit of taking arbitrary success/failure personally

Definitely have a chat, I've done so with targets like that in the past.

I've framed it in 2 ways.

The first was "this is an ambitious target and I'd love to hit it, can you explain the action you think I need to take over and above what I currently do to hit it?"

The second "I don't think this is achievable based on the following evidence and info, I'd not want to set unrealistic expectations around my performance and what can be achieved, can we discuss"

Definitely ask them, but be prepared for a non-answer. I'm assuming if you won't get any commission until you sign your goal sheet, so you probably don't want to hold out too long but definitely important to get your concerns/objections in writing.

How was last year? If you smashed it, are they just adding the arbitrary 10-30% growth to last years number? I'd be looking around, depending what sector you are in there is a decent amount out there and often for a decent amount more money.

Print off the meaning of SMART targets, of which two aspects of workable goal settings are Achievable and Realistic, and ask management to explain how their plans fit this.  And dust down the CV.

Going through this in a different environment.  Several of us have pointed out why the targets are unrealistic.  A House of Lords Committee has pointed out the shortfall in staff and training that is causing us to miss targets.

I've suggested my manager needs to brush up on procedure for taking us down the competency route.

Maybe I'm not up to the job. I doubt we are all not up to the job though.

Tell 'em to shove it up their fat hairy ars....s .

Then find out where they live and hammer frozen sausage in their lawns.

Wee in their shoes too.

And own 'em with some bombers for good measure!

Anything I've missed? 🙂

Send Louise

It sounds like a “top down” target and by that I mean that it has been decided on the number the company has to make to meet some revenue/margin/EBITDA target, usually what the market analysts are looking for if your company is public. Bottom up targets where you talk through customer potential sales and use a matrix of sales volume and probability have always worked out better in my view (more accurate EoY vs forecast) but they sometimes aren’t what the company wants to hear.

just remember that you manger has already signed up for that target too and there have already been redundancies so you are left in a difficult position.

as people say, talk to your manager but do it with numbers. This is the £££ that I think we can achieve given the market and customers, put it down in writing to them.

however giving someone a completely unachievable sales target is sometimes a good sign to polish up your CV and start looking for other jobs.

Anything I’ve missed? 🙂

Corporate world innit. Tell them to ringfence their unicorn.

Anything I’ve missed?

Hoof them in the slats.

I guess there's a reason I'm not in sales but this all sounds like a very stressful way to earn a living.

Its a very short sighted management move. If a target is unrealistic then staff can tend to act as Intheborders says and simply work to rule. Organisational performance takes a real dip as everyone stops trying. Even worse is when this has a strong link to pay as performance drops and then all you good people f off.

Tell your managers they are clowns and look for the exit.

Is your managers remuneration also linked to your targets? If so, I reckon they'd like to know 😁

I’ve been given a sales target which is ludicrously unachievable following a round of redundancies of which I’ve survived

As others have said, i'd be telling them that if the target is unachieveable, then theres little point in you trying to make any sales at all.

Same benefit to you from either sitting back and watching the company fold or working 24/7.

Sounds like you're in a strong position if they have made others redundant.

Unfortunately my contribution is likely to be 3% of his overall, which of course could be vastly overshadowed in other areas.   This is why is feels like I'm being given a message TBH.

Thanks for the tips, I shall put together a polite argument designed on the basis its me that wants to understand the grand plan which appears to be a significant gap from what I think is achievable.

Also as above, yes I can work to the 70% on the basis that I'm told everyone has a ridiculous target and let them push me out - for which my prior evidential question becomes a notable activity for HR procedures - but of course thats evidence I'm never going to see and its likely designed to push the Sales crew hard due to the company being under target in '22.  We also need to remember IT/Tech is facing huge issues currently, not that its an excuse, but because I don't want to be a small fish in a very large pool of redundant people.

As others have said, i’d be telling them that if the target is unachieveable, then theres little point in you trying to make any sales at all.

As I mentioned, I can "see" £20k, thats not an insignificant contribution to the family welfare pot for next year, especially if I'm redundant in January.

I've worked in sales for over 20 years. Unrealistic targets are mostly a way to do you out of a bonus. Be grateful you get one, I didn't get a bonus for the first 13 years. And even now in my current job it's probably only ever every other year, and never have I achieved the full bonus potential. I work for a long standing German company and they still expect 7/8% growth globally every year.

What industry are you in?

Just in the interest of non Sales people, mine isn't a "bonus", its half of my salary paid as commissions on revenue sold. In the past few years I've ranged from 162% - 112% but this year looking at max 70%*.

I'm facing the lowest wage I've earned in 6 years*.

* Calculated, unless I get incredibly lucky.

Did you hand back the extra when you reached 162%?

Arguably you should only be expecting to average 100% over a few years, so you're still quids in after having been given some very low targets against which you've over-achieved. I doubt it feels like that though 😂

so you’re still quids in after having been given some very low targets against which you’ve over-achieved. I doubt it feels like that though

Different company and they weren't low targets, I've always had the highest targets in the team, but I work very hard to achieve them, perhaps contrary to the activity you see on here.... In 2019 I achieved 121% and was so tired that after I closed my last deal on Christmas Eve I called my boss and told him I could open my laptop again until 2020 because it made me physically sick to look at it.

I'm happy to accept I'm outside the norm and perhaps have had a few Golden years, but I've no comparison other than what Google tells me, the is that between 45-65% of Sales reps don't meet target, so maybe I have been lucky.

Just in the interest of non Sales people, mine isn’t a “bonus”, its half of my salary paid as commissions

If it's really part of your salary, not a bonus, then surely it's someone's job to try and get you to 99-101% so that they're paying you all your salary but no more. If they're seeing 112-162%, then that suggests they're getting it wrong and will have to correct to get you back to your specified salary. Sounds like they've over corrected and need challenging and putting right. Bonus chasing/rewarding is something else...

[ EDIT: Yey! The basic editor is back. Thank you tech peeps. ]

Well yes, IMHO a Sales OTE should be an obtainable target with some good hard work. The addition amount should be a carrot to ask encourage sales people to go that extra mile for more company revenue.

Constantly achieving 162% yes I agree is incorrectly targeted. FWIW my 112% was in 2021 when no one expected the revenue I sold during the pandemic, but I did get lucky with one significant deal, otherwise i would have ended at 89%.

Sounds like they’ve over corrected

Yes and /or on a drive to lower the bottom line. Either way it’s now my job to question is appropriately, for which I thank everyone for their advice. This is probably EOT for me.

commissions on revenue

Not based on margin? Sell at cost.

was so tired that after I closed my last deal on Christmas Eve I called my boss and told him I could open my laptop again until 2020 because it made me physically sick to look at it.

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/mental-fatigue/

Then ask yourself if its worth it?

Chew, also based on the other thread yes I am asking myself that. Based on current circumstances I’m thinking heavenly about what next.

I’m thinking heavenly about what next.

is God going to decide for you?

🤔

is God going to decide for you?

Can't be any dafter than asking us lot?

Not based on margin? Sell at cost.

Not as simple as that when your quotes need to go through an approval process.

Google tells me, the is that between 45-65% of Sales reps don’t meet target, so maybe I have been lucky.

Timing, territory, talent - you need all 3 to have a good year in sales.

I try to base my lifestyle on what I do earn (basic), and not what I could earn (sales comp).

Did you hand back the extra when you reached 162%?

Arguably you should only be expecting to average 100% over a few years, so you’re still quids in after having been given some very low targets against which you’ve over-achieved. I doubt it feels like that though 😂

You think like our former CFO.

FWIW I work with a lot of sales people.  I've never met any who were consistently happy with how their remuneration was determined / targets set etc.  Personally, I have commission / bonus as a way to drive behaviour - but its still the norm in sales; the mistake of the CFO is to think like an accountant.  If you really have a sales person who consistently smashes their target every year, the last thing you want to do is discourage them or worse encourage them to go join a competitor!

The OP should definitely raise AND document his issue, because then when he hands in his notice and they make a counter offer he can show that the management chain is broken.

@kryton
Are you responsible for generating your own leads? If not, I'd be asking them what their plans are for that? If they can generate 70% more qualified leads than they did last year, maybe the target is more achievable?

Alternatively, has their marketing budget suddenly increased by 70%?

Or does your product have a new unique, killer feature which makes sales a lot easier? Or are they gonna slash prices to makes sales easier?

And is everyone else in the sales team been given similar targets?

If the answers are no,it would seem they are trying to engineer you out of a job....

Vlad, I'll just skirt around some answers so I don't expose the company, but in essence I designed an Excel calculator and did my calculations yesterday and applying historic trend / achievement them to my current proposed number.

Yes I generate my own leads but there is marketing support for me shared across the group. Essentially, I have - 9 months from the close of the year including annual leave - half the pipeline I need for the year, and can statistically close about half my number. However the historic data includes me as an account manager with more than 20 named accounts plus new logos for a market leader, yet as of today I start with zero accounts in a new market entrant, so that would all be "new business". I am not a new business rep by trade.

Start looking for another job

In a few months time your threads will be on how you're financially less well off but enjoy the spare time with the family

I’ve worked in sales for over 20 years. Unrealistic targets are mostly a way to do you out of a bonus. Be grateful you get one, I didn’t get a bonus for the first 13 years.

I've worked in sales for 35 years and never had this experience. Maybe I've just been lucky. My experience of target setting is that it's always been linked to the plan that the business has been asked to deliver for shareholders. I've usually given the biggest stretch to the teams/people that I think have got the best opportunity to hit it.

@kryton57 is this an individual target or do you have a team? If it was me, I'd create a plan to show what I thought was achievable and then a plan with what was required to bridge the gap.

@kryton57 is this an individual target or do you have a team? If it was me, I’d create a plan to show what I thought was achievable and then a plan with what was required to bridge the gap.

Individual. I have the plan, and the one I submitted last year to our leadership which has doubled twice to provide the current number - without my input. I’ll be asking what the strategy was to get to that larger number so I can take that on as advice and enact on it.

Sometimes an organisation demands x% growth but doesn't have the strategy to deliver it. I've seen that many times.

If your company CEO was the CFO you're doomed* as they only look at things on a 12-18 month cycle to appease the shareholders, which in turn keeps them in a job.

* doomed as in that type of leader doesn't care about the workers, they only care about share price, dividend, EBITDA etc.

Absolutely you should raise this as a problem. It's not a moan, it's constructive feedback. How they handle your response determines your next course of action - stay, quit or be squeezed out 🙂

* doomed as in that type of leader doesn’t care about the workers, they only care about share price, dividend, EBITDA etc.

I seem to recall you had experienced a private equity takeover. If so you’re doomed, they will look to increase value of the company prior to sale and a return on their investment to their fund members. You’re not on their radar.

Private Equity acquisitions only go two ways:

1 - asset strip and divest/sell off in chunks

2 - they invest to sell again in 3-5yrs time but they want rapid growth as they need to increase the investment by 2-3 times original price.