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Ive got dumb TRV’s on all my radiators, but they’re all set to max, I was looking at getting some smart trv’s so I can turn off the lounge, dining room, bedrooms etc during the working day
I just do this by hand in the morning / evening.....
I just do this by hand in the morning / evening…..
yep, thats the really cheap way to do it - I'm too lazy.....
This is a bad idea, you’re literally throwing money out of the windows.
You could argue this.
But you don't know how efficient my windows are and, as it would cost at least £3k for new curtains (and we're probably not here for more than another 4 years) then it's not worth it.
As I said, we never closed the curtains in these rooms in the 17 years before the remodeling as we're not overlooked by anyone.
I plan to use Celotex, cut each sheet into the right width strips then pass the strip through a small hole and fit in between the joists.
Another method is to simply push loft insulation between the joists and then staple plastic mesh (or similar) underneath to hold it in place.
Quicker, cheaper, easier and probably just as efficient under a suspended floor - less gaps also unless you're planning on foaming your celotex into place.
Don’t forget to factor in that you’ll lose the heat given off by the Aga – will you replace that?
The Aga only really heats the kitchen, it's not attached to any radiators. Yes we will lose a little but not nearly enough to mean the boiler is going to be on longer or do much more work.
Plus in the summer the Aga is still chomping through £13-15 p/m just making the kitchen unbearably hot.
Even if we break even in the cost the gas is not massively costly for us and the Aga is not really the way forward environmentally these days and they are not hugely practical a lot of the time.
Great for drying clothes on though 🙂
Ive got dumb TRV’s on all my radiators, but they’re all set to max
If they're set to max then you might as well not have them. Setting them to 3 gives you about 20 degrees.
We have all the radiators turned off in the bedrooms(but not the bathrooms), enough heat makes its way upstairs to keep things at decent temperature.
Our house is reasonably well insulated but nothing spectacular.
Quicker, cheaper, easier and probably just as efficient under a suspended floor – less gaps also unless you’re planning on foaming your celotex into place.
You get a perfect fit just cutting over size and forcing in place - it deforms locally quite well. The advantage of the solid stuff is you know you have the full depth everywhere. Plus you can tape it if you really want to ensure an airtight fit.
It was pretty easy doing that on the workshop roof, so I'd just so the same under the floor.
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/8060/8256380554_2b1ff0b152.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/8060/8256380554_2b1ff0b152.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/dzA7hS ]8 Dec 2012 10:38[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr
If they’re set to max then you might as well not have them. Setting them to 3 gives you about 20 degrees.
Yes,exactly, the dumb ones are currently pointless, the rooms are being heated whenever the house thermostat calls for heat regardless of whether we are using the room or not, but the programmable ones will allow me to turn the heat off in various rooms during the day when we're not using them, and turn it on at night when we are using them without having to manually turn the dial.
Just need to ensure we keep the doors shut when we're not using the rooms.
A post for working-at-homers.
Since COVID I have been working in the loft. A few weeks a go I bought an AEG portable air-con with heat pump, that I have up here. It consumes around 700w and outputs 2.2 kw of heat.
... those figures are a bit miss-leading as it is sucking up the air from downstairs (and ultimately outside). But it basically means that I can have the heating in the house turned off all day. Even when it is freezing outside, on average it only consumes 250w throughout the day and it is 21-22 degrees up here.
Yes,exactly, they’re currently pointless, the rooms are being heated whenever the house thermostat calls for heat regardless of whether we are using the room or not, but the programmable ones will allow me to turn the heat off in various rooms during the day when we’re not using them, and turn it on at night when we are using them without having to manually turn the dial.
Sure, but at the moment, some of your rooms may be hotter than the one with your thermostat in. Using TRVs appropriately will at least solve that problem. For example, one of my kids' bedrooms is small, internally insulated and has a good sized radiator so heats far faster than the rest of the house. She leaves her TRV on 2.
I bought 5 in their new year offer.
To be honest you’re going to need them for most if not all of your rads.
You can set them up “dumb” so they just turn on and off but I soon realised that was pointless as you are expecting a thermostat in the hall (or wherever the main one is) to know when you need heat in another room.
If you set them up as heat on demand you set the temp you want in the room and when you want it and it’ll ask for heat from the boiler when it gets low. HOWEVER if you do that and you have some rads without the smart TRVs they will also get heat which sorta doesn’t make sense. It’s better as you’ll have some other smart TRVS which have turned off so you’ll save some energy use but not as much as you would if ALL the rads had them on.
I’m finding it quite complicated with multiple units and I’m only just getting the schedules right after 4 weeks. I’m going to buy 2 more of them so all the rads have them bar one as that seems to make the most sense.
In the end I’m only heating 2 rooms at a time through the day and only when those rooms need it through their own sensors. That’s good I reckon. It’s different at 7-9am than it is at 9-5 and again between 5 and 10 and again between 10 and 11 and then again 11 till 7 AND the schedules are different at the weekend!!
One thing I have changed today is put our workrooms in 2 hours slots. We aren’t always in them 100% so if you are you can turn the temp up but it will reset back to off at the end of the slot. I am hoping that as the temp will go down slowly you’ll might not notice and cope with it being a bit chilly for a bit. So for example I was moving about a bit so didn’t bump tbe 3-5pm temp up from off. I’m a bit chilly now but I haven’t got much work to do so will leave it and that will save another 2 hours of heating this room I’m in. My job means I might have to leave the house at short notice so it has the added benefit that I don’t have to think about turning the heat off as I know it will turn off if I forget and not sit heating the room while I am out. I could get a Hive motion sensor and maybe set up an action to do the same thing but I’m not sure it would work as well. I’ll share a pic of my schedule if that helps.
Also bear in mind that each room with a smart SMART TRV will have different temps where you feel comfy. My loungue is quite comfy at 16 but the TRV in there is in a chilly corner but the bathroom has an old style column rad which kicks a lot of heat out sideways so I have to set the stat at 25 to get the room warm.
All in all I think I’ll save back the money I spent on these, if not this year (on an old fixed rate which is really low) then defiantly next year.
Here is a few schedules for today to hopefully make it clearer!! the front bedroom is the one I work in BTW, the art room is where my wife works.
https://imgur.com/gallery/URDqPj5
I just do this by hand in the morning / evening…..
I was doing that for a while but was finding I was forgetting to do it quite a lot and ended up with cold rooms when I wanted them warm and vice versa
Here is a few schedules for today to hopefully make it clearer!! the front bedroom is the one I work in BTW, the art room is where my wife works.
25 degrees in your bathroom?! Is it actually a sauna?
25 degrees in your bathroom?! Is it actually a sauna?
I do like a warm bathroom but it doesn’t feel that warm, it’s just because the radiator isn’t a convecting one it’s a column rad so I think the rad is directly heating the TRV to some degree so the TRV is thinking the room is warm et than it actually is.
@julians which programmable TRVs did you go for out of interest? I'm after 4 for similar reasons...
lol, bathroom on 25c...
I'm not suprised you elecric bill is high 😀
But it basically means that I can have the heating in the house turned off all day.
I must be lucky with the insulation because just me in my bedroom is enough to keep it warm. Sometimes I need a jumper on but not always.
I must be lucky with the insulation because just me in my bedroom is enough to keep it warm.
You'll go blind 😉
lol, bathroom on 25c…
I’m not suprised you elecric bill is high 😀
Are you hard of reading or something? Already explained it twice. 🙄🙄
And don’t you mean gas? 😂
Sure, but at the moment, some of your rooms may be hotter than the one with your thermostat in. Using TRVs appropriately will at least solve that problem. For example, one of my kids’ bedrooms is small, internally insulated and has a good sized radiator so heats far faster than the rest of the house. She leaves her TRV on 2.
Ah, right, I see, no the boiler and radiators are too small for the house there is no chance of a room getting too hot,hence them always being left on full
@b230ftw cheers for all that. Tbh, I envisaged using them ‘dumb’ until we had all rads covered for the reasons you outlined. Although I have the halls/landing/bathrooms so low anyway that they don’t really get heated during the day and probably don’t need them. Also, unless it is really baltic outside I can sit there all day without the heating on. (A ride out at lunch helps!) anyway, ordered now, but I can see myself getting another 5 next month!
@julians which programmable TRVs did you go for out of interest? I’m after 4 for similar reasons
These ones
https://www.gasproducts.co.uk/terrier-i-temp-i30-programmable-radiator-control.html
No idea if they're any good,but thought they were worth a punt
For those in the know - which of the smart thermostats is the easiest to self install? For a combi boiler that already has a wireless (but dumb) thermostat. TIA
Which model boiler? The best ones use a data connection to the thermostat rather than a voltage free relay contact, this allows the thermostat to modulate flame height rather than being straight on or off.
As it’s just myself in the house I have switched off my daiken altherma heat pump, it can’t heat the house worth a shit and I’m not bothered about hot water, the wood burning stove is kept running 24hrs day and gets loaded up at night with anthracite.
These ones
https://www.gasproducts.co.uk/terrier-i-temp-i30-programmable-radiator-control.html
/a>No idea if they’re any good,but thought they were worth a punt
i might be missing something but they can’t demand heat, so if the boiler isn’t firing from the main stat, then they aren’t getting any heat no matter what the temperature is?
If you’ve seen The Revenant you’ll know that the solution is to climb inside a disembowelled horse.
for those lucky enough to have a woodburner - ever fancied poaching a forest?
Poaching is so much more socially acceptable than theft!
Can you fit celotex under the floor by screwing it under the joists? Seems easier and would remove cold bridges compared to insulating between the joists. The crawl space under my house is too small to safely get underneath but I am due to put laminate down in two rooms soon and I guess the 5mm insulating underlay is not as good as 50mm celotex under the subfloor. If the space under the floor is enclosed against vermin I assume there is no risk using loose insulation?
Our living room has a big bay window with rad, our nice heavy curtains close off the whole bay and opening the curtains is like opening a window in terms of heat loss. If we want the rad on in the evenings we have to open the curtains. If we put a rad on the opposite side of the room would we end up with a massive cold spot?
i might be missing something but they can’t demand heat, so if the boiler isn’t firing from the main stat, then they aren’t getting any heat no matter what the temperature is?
You're not missing anything, but the boiler will be firing whenever I want the rooms warm.
Had a quick look and it doesn't look like it has the required data connection, their latest Etec boilers do.
Most boiler manufacturers use Opentherm, Vaillant use eBus. The nest controllers (amongst others) are opentherm compatible.
I think most modern controllers are straight forward to fit, if you can re wire a plug you shouldn't have much trouble changing a thermostat.
Our living room has a big bay window with rad, our nice heavy curtains close off the whole bay and opening the curtains is like opening a window in terms of heat loss. If we want the rad on in the evenings we have to open the curtains. If we put a rad on the opposite side of the room would we end up with a massive cold spot?
All our radiators are on internal walls rather than external walls under windows, works very well.
Just read most of this thread and am left wondering why, if scientists have been banging on about climate change for thirty odd years, does it take a sudden price shock to finally get people to change their behaviour and make a start on doing what is required? Is hitting people in their pockets really the only incentive which works?
Also, all this talk the government is making about helping people with their heating bills is totally counter productive. Yes I know there are a fair few people who really can't afford to heat their homes now prices have rocketed but surely the taxpayers cash would be much better spent on insulation, double glazing etc to help them out rather than just helping them to buy more gas?
if scientists have been banging on about climate change for thirty odd years, does it take a sudden price shock to finally get people to change their behaviour and make a start on doing what is required? Is hitting people in their pockets really the only incentive which works?
Because utilities have been far too cheap for far too long so for most of us it was cheaper to pay for what we used rather than spend money on reducing our usage.
I've used this showering technique for years now.
1.Start the shower, wait for it to warm to temp- about 10 secs.
2.Get under it and get wet all over- another 10 secs
3.Soap up the sponge, another 10 secs
4.Switch off the shower
5.Clean my filthy body all over with the aforementioned sponge
6.Start the shower again
7.Rinse off, 15 secs approx.
Granted, I have very little hair now, and if I'm shampooing then another 20 secs can be added on. But the boiler runs for less than a minute doing this.
Conversely, the 2 females in my house, all long-haired, can take 30 mins at times.
andrewh - regrettably, you're right in that the bottom line for any meaningful change is...what's the cost?.
It's always about the cost; what's in it for me and what will it cost?
For most, there are no other considerations.
Likewise, shower takes me a handful of minutes and the shower isn't on for most of it 🙃
@flicker - cheers. I can definitely wire a plug so will take a look at what's available. Current thermostat only allows a minimum of 1 hour blocks for the heating, I'd like a bit finer control. Currently set the heating clock to the wrong time so I can match it to when we get up, rather than it being flexible enough to come on exactly when we need it.
Is hitting people in their pockets really the only incentive which works?
Pretty much.
Look at plastic bag usage.
Lots of campaigns to educate people to reuse/recycle, but as soon as you charge people 5p to have one, usage drops by 80%+
Also, all this talk the government is making about helping people with their heating bills is totally counter productive. Yes I know there are a fair few people who really can’t afford to heat their homes now prices have rocketed but surely the taxpayers cash would be much better spent on insulation, double glazing etc to help them out rather than just helping them to buy more gas?
This should be the strategy, but its a very long term one.
Higher energy prices will push those with the resources into investing in solutions for reducing their consumption, plus its the higher prices which make these investments payback.
But what % of the population have the funds to do this? 20%?
What do you do with the other 80%?
As much as the £350* "gift" will help, its still going to be painful for a large amount of the population, given the figures some people on here are quoting.
All of these insulation upgrades will take time/money to implement and its going to take many decades to get through all of the upgrades required to get the UK housing stock up to a Net Carbon Zero position.
Lets not forget 13% of households in England are in fuel poverty, and I wouldnt be surprised if that number doubles over the next 12 months. With the related health issues this will cause, it could result in a similar number of extra deaths as the pandemic has. Fortunately we seem to be having a mild winter.
*yes, i know its not really £350
For those sticking celotex between the joists are you using 50 or 100mm?
I have the ceiling down in the kitchen at the moment, bathroom above so might stick some in before the plasterboard goes back on
if scientists have been banging on about climate change for thirty odd years, does it take a sudden price shock to finally get people to change their behaviour and make a start on doing what is required? Is hitting people in their pockets really the only incentive which works?
There was an explanation on the news at lunchtime relating it to overall inflation.
If you look back at the last 15 years or so we've had; rampant house price inflation (which doesn't appear in the RPI)
But we've also had low or no inflation in other areas. Like food, there was a bit of a shock post-financial crash, but then 10 years of it being all mostly the same, with a wobble at Brexit and then doubling this year 😯.
So the reality of what we're seeing is a big cost of living correction that although it will squeeze the people in the middle, is actually going to hurt those that are either retired and well off (within their means anyway) as they don't have a mortgage but do have to buy food and heating. And the poorest, who have to find the extra for the food and heating but also their housing which has been high for years.
If companies are forced (by the labor market) to offer inflationary pay rises then although it's a bad thing on paper for inflation to be high, in reality, it's just redistributing wealth away from property owners and towards workers. The workers won't be any better off, because that pay rise is being spent on things other than housing, but at least it's money that will circulate in the economy, not be tied up in assets. And if it's circulating that tends to make those pay rises more affordable for the companies. Whereas 15 years of house price inflation is difficult for companies to match as unless they're developers sat on huge appreciating land banks they're not seeing the benefit of that inflation on their bottom line.
Apologies if it's been mentioned. The £200 loan is to be clawed back. How? What's the mechanism?
Much comment on other thread.
Repaid at £40/yr over 5 yrs starting 2023 - possibly in April - as an addition to bill.
If companies are forced (by the labor market) to offer inflationary pay rises then although it’s a bad thing on paper for inflation to be high, in reality, it’s just redistributing wealth away from property owners and towards workers.
I know you're being serious, but all the same it is a hilarious notion.
It stands in stark contrast to the way the tory party have been guiding Britain these many years.
Any ideas, if you have a choice between gas or electric oven, which is cheaper to run?
I wonder if we will ever see comparable data from before and after the price rises to compare domestic energy usage. A lot of people will reduce their energy usage through new habits and better insulation or more efficient heating. Will we be able to determine how much reduction will be to making better choices to reduce usage - which we could have done before the price increase - and how much is forced due to being unaffordable.
I used to work in the waste industry and know the only reason why we recycle so much stuff nowadays is because of massively increased landfill taxes, it ended up being more profitable to recycle rather than not doing so
We’ve been on the Tado smart heating since 2012, grandfathered into the geofencing feature, updated to the V3+ a year ago and recently added TRV’s on all rads except the hallway one where the main thermostat is, we’ve insulated the loft to a foot thick, both ground floor extensions the same, double glazed everywhere, curtains/blinds all closed at dark & using the TRV’s so rooms are only heated when they’re occupied (HomeKit automation), gas used has dropped to £1-1.50 a day now, including the gas hob, we’re a household of 2 adults and 2 teenagers. Thermal curtains or blinds will be fitted this year, no sense buying heat to chuck it out the windows.
I live in an old listed building with sash windows and lath and plaster walls with an inch cavity if that. I’m on gas central heating and have an open fire in a serviceable chimney and a condemned chimney that’s hopefully going to be rebuilt and I’ll drop a liner in it and put a wood burner in if the listed building people play ball.
I’ve got insulation where I can have it but it’s quite drafty in here. Due to the windows and construction.
I have been wondering if there’s potential to add in a wood boiler to the gas central heating system relatively cheaply? It would need to be outside on the other side of the wall the boiler is on in a little shed of some description that isn’t fixed to the building. I’ve got access to very cheap logs and it seems sensible to maximise the use of that fuel where possible. I fancy a low ish tech log boiler that regulates its own combustion like those french perge boilers, it would feed the hot water tank when I don’t want to use gas and perhaps only use the gas when I really can’t be arsed. I don’t have an accumulator tank, just a std internal insulated copper tank, and don’t really have space inside for one.
Any ideas, if you have a choice between gas or electric oven, which is cheaper to run?
Definitely gas. A gas oven is almost* as efficient but the unit price is around 1/5th.
*A fan assisted electric oven is a bit more efficient.
Comparing boiling a kettle on the hob and using an electric kettle, I recall someone looked into this. Once you took into account the heat going up the side for a gas hob and that you are heating from the outside in (rather than heating the water directly in a kettle), and the increased boiling time (heat loss). The reduction of efficiency in using gas meant it was roughly cost parity with using an electric kettle.
Having said that a friend who had only ever had an Aga, put our electric kettle on the gas hob. That does not work well at all.
Definitely gas. A gas oven is almost* as efficient but the unit price is around 1/5th.
*A fan assisted electric oven is a bit more efficient.
cheers Martin. Might have to start using the gas one then even if I don't like cooking with it.
cheers Martin. Might have to start using the gas one then even if I don’t like cooking with it.
Likewise. For things like roast dinners, where the oven is on for a long time, then it make more sense.
Worth remembering that a gas oven is pretty much 100% efficient as a room heater as there is no vent (unlike a boiler).
For single glazed windows when your renting or can't get them double glazed I've used something like this before as its easily removable & better than nothing https://www.thesafetysupplycompany.co.uk/p/9461992/warmseal---double-glazing-insulation-film---secondary-glazing---90m-sq---ci-y80901.html?gclid=CjwKCAiAo4OQBhBBEiwA5KWu_7UWGCqM7_9lOQXgdduWhVNiA_FcUumLATOF9kGdPp9wHimNnwjLoBoC06QQAvD_BwE
(actually used cling film and sellotape as I was a student) More awkward on sash windows but left it so I could open the window a crack for ventilation in the winter then removed it in the summer when the windows would be fully opened.
have been wondering if there’s potential to add in a wood boiler to the gas central heating
Yes
system relatively cheaply?
No
It would need to be outside on the other side of the wall the boiler is on in a little shed of some description th
Definitely no. The cheapest way to introduce a wood boiler is a back boiler on a wood stove and a water tank with a coil, if you already have an indirect water tank you will need two coils. (A new tank). This can be done relatively easily if you ch system is openvented. If your heating system is unvented you will need thermal stores or plate heat exchanger to transfer heat. If you want a boiler outside then it will need to have a heat bank / thermal store and will not be simple and cheap. The cheapest external boilers are agricultural and take a small bail. These work well on big houses but use a lot of wood. Depending on the setup you may have a plate heat exchanger to link systems or you may use the thermal store / heat bank for this.
It's all possible but depends on what you have and how far you want to go.
Thanks @julians
I was obviously too slow as now out of stock! Seems a good price though…
Those programmable trvs are back in stock now
https://www.gasproducts.co.uk/terrier-i-temp-i30-programmable-radiator-control.html
@julians thanks for heads-up, I had done a stock alert but no email received.... but now have 4 on order thanks to you 😉
I've recently swapped our hot water to electrical heating only (240v immersion heater) because we are due to refurbish the kitchen where the current, old, gas boiler lives, and we are looking at moving to some form of heat pump type system, where high temperature (>50 degC) means poor CoP.
I've put the immersion heater on a seperate 'lecy meter, so i can see exactly how much energy we are using for just the hot water. It looks like a good option will be to install some very cheap, probably second hand, solar PV panels to drive a second immersion heater. The beauty of this is that the hot water tank acts as the thermal store, so mostly you don't care about precisely when the tank heats.
Using a cheap ebay MPPT controller also allows the PV panels to harvest energy, and turn that into "High temperature" heat even at very low absolute power values. Because a resistive heating element is 100% efficient, you can put a small amount of energy into it, and get that energy into your hot water, unlike for direct solar hot water system. This is important, because mostly our days are overcast, so a typical 300W PV panel might only put out 50 to 100w. But, over the course of a day, that 50w adds up.
I've got space on my workshop roof to put 3 or perhaps 4 300w PV panels, so plan to temporarily install some cheap second hand ones and see how much energy we can harvest. It's certianly not suddenly going to slash our 'lecy bills, but with a diy / s/h home built system i think i can get a return on my cash in a reasonably short time frame 🙂
My mums octopus fixed deal ends on the 13th feb, currently paying £78 month or approx £900 year, cheapest new dual tariff available anywhere was sticking with octopus 12 month loyal customer deal for £177 month, ouch.
I imagine they'll be a number of folk attempting a hot clamp on the incoming line and running flying leads to high drain appliances, especially if they are still on an old style electricity meter as its quite simple to do if you are competent with electricity.
cheapest new dual tariff available anywhere was sticking with octopus 12 month loyal customer deal for £177 month, ouch.
The cheapest is the SVR tariff that's capped. Don't fix into anything at the moment.
...Using a cheap ebay MPPT controller also allows the PV panels to harvest energy, and turn that into “High temperature” heat even at very low absolute power values. Because a resistive heating element is 100% efficient, you can put a small amount of energy into it, and get that energy into your hot water, unlike for direct solar hot water system. This is important, because mostly our days are overcast, so a typical 300W PV panel might only put out 50 to 100w. But, over the course of a day, that 50w adds up.
I’ve got space on my workshop roof to put 3 or perhaps 4 300w PV panels, so plan to temporarily install some cheap second hand ones and see how much energy we can harvest. It’s certianly not suddenly going to slash our ‘lecy bills, but with a diy / s/h home built system i think i can get a return on my cash in a reasonably short time frame 🙂
Good thinking. A cheap way of doing this is to get a "plug-in" solar system. Which can literally just plug in to a 13 amp socket (although is probably against regulations and it is better to hard wire it with an isolator on a separate circuit). This won'tallow you to claim any SEG payments for energy exported. However, if you are diverting to the immersion heater, I would expect very little to be exported, as a significant proportion of the generated power will be covering your base load (fridges, lights, things on standby etc.). I think this would work pretty well for 3 to 4 panels. If you do it for less than £1 per w than it should be pretty competitive (e.g. <£1200 for a 1.2 kw system).
I'm needing to do work here
Used 350lts a month in oil.
I've the ceilings to do so will be celotexing before the boards go up as well. House gets battered by wind and pulls the heat straight out!
Good thinking. A cheap way of doing this is to get a “plug-in” solar system. Which can literally just plug in to a 13 amp socket (although is probably against regulations and it is better to hard wire it with an isolator on a separate circuit).
It most definitely is against the regulations. The issue is someone may be work on the network and think the supply has been isolated and bang someone plugs in their own supply and the wires are live. This goes back though the transformer and bang thousands of volts and some poor buggers tools. This is when grid tided inverters are required shit down in the event of a power cut. I am all up for homemade engineering solutions but make sure a setup like this is on its own dedicated circuit.