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“The families have expressed that the deepest source of upset in this affair has been the failure by the police to inform them of the fact that the first girl to go missing had gone to Syria, a fact that was only known to them after their own children had also gone missing.
The deepest source of upset to me would be that my daughter had run off likely to become some sort of slave to a homicidal nutjob. But hey, that's just me.
its not hard to see why a parent would like to blame someone else in this situation and feel like if someone had just told me x I would have stopped it
I dont blame them for doing this and they have my sympathy.
Not saying I agree with them but I can see why they are doing it.
You're right, JY, and if I were in such a bad situation probably I'd lash out blindly too. What I don't understand is why their solicitor would make such a statement. Surely they should have a cooler head.
Do you really think they had no idea who the girls were mixing with?
I take it you don't have a teenage daughter?
She's 13 in 4 days and hell yes I keep an eye on who she's mixing with. We ain't talking the school tearaway here are we?
Nope no sympathy here.
I bet my parents thought they knew who I was hanging around with too.
Were you hanging round with fundamentalist nut jobs promising you a better life in a different country away from your family and future? I doubt it somehow.
the deepest source of upset in this affair
IMO you're twisting the sentiments behind that comment. The girls going missing is "this affair", if they hadn't gone missing there would be no affair.
It's like saying "the saddest thing about my son being killed in the motorbike bike accident was that I wasn't able to tell him that I loved him before he died". It doesn't mean that they aren't sad about their son dying.
And to give some context to what the parents are saying :
[i]Police accept that they wrote letters to the parents saying their children had been friends with the pupil who had gone abroad and asking for permission to take formal statements. But instead of delivering the letters directly to the parents, police handed them on 5 February to the girls themselves, who hid them in their school textbooks in their bedrooms. The families only found the letters after the girls left on 17 February.
The Met statement did appear to show some contrition and said: “With the benefit of hindsight, we acknowledge that the letters could have been delivered direct to the parents.”[/i]
You might not agree with the criticism of the police in this case but there is no need to underplay the concern of the parents.
What we don't know is whether this is really what the parents think or whether the press are exaggerating their remarks or indeed if their "advisers" have an agenda much like CAGE. Either way it's pretty desperate to have your 15/16 year old daughter go to Syria to be a Jihadi bride and have them do that from right under your nose. At some level they must be asking themselves how it happened. I read there have been 60 young women from the UK who have gone, all under 20 I understand.
It seems like the police did screw up here but I imagine the main focus of the families legal team is to bring this error to the front to ensure that the main issue, the fact that the parents should be responsible and answerable for their children's actions, is kept in the background.
I would presume all legal teams would do this in similar circumstances, minimize the negative by spinning it around, in this case on to a failure by the police.
A bit like really wanting to go on safari but being stopped by 'the man' gave you no option but to became a jihadi!
and this is whats wrong with the world today, it is always somebody else's fault.
Your kid = your responsibility.
If anything these people should apologise to the police and the UK public for their childrens poor behaviour.
It seems like the police did screw up here
That seems to be the case - the police gave letters to the kids for them to pass onto their parents relating to the investigation into the first girl that went missing. At the very least it was a failure of imagination by the officer responsible.
and this is whats wrong with the world today, it is always somebody else's fault.Your kid = your responsibility.
If anything these people should apologise to the police and the UK public for their childrens poor behaviour.
Quite. What sympathy I have for the parents is all but eroded by their blame-shifting campaign - they have tried to blame everyone but Bagpuss and Postman Pat.
Quite a few cockups here from the police letters handed to the children through to the girls being able to board the flight to Turkey unchallenged.
Hopefully lessons have been learnt which may prevent other families finding themselves in the same situation.
It was the parents responsibity. They are now trying to blame someone else, in fact, anyone else.
It is the girls fault for not giving the letters to their parents, but they were never going to - but I know that isn't the way the world works
It isn't the police's fault - the parents wouldn't have acted anyway.
I have no doubt that the parent know that their kids were attarcted to the extreme side of Islam. Remember the stats state that around 45% of muslim families "have a degree of sympathy / understanding" of ISIS (according to the Torygraph, mind. However, I guess they never thought they would act on it ...
There is now nothing that you can do - they have gone, and the are doing whatever they have to, to survive. And I bet it isn't like the recruitment stuff said.
The Muslim community now have to step up theit responsibility in policing this and to stop any more kids leaving. But that comes down to the community making a stance and protecting their offspring. There are prettyu strong parallels to the issues with gun/knife crime in the black community.
"Whitey" telling asian or black kids that something is "bad" and anti-British , or sending around the police to do so, will make it a whole lot more attractive. It will only serve to make them more likely to get involved. If their peer group / elders/ comminity figureheads do so, then there is hope.
Also, to paraphrase the Torygraph, the girls are gone. Let's stop worrying about them , and worry about the 1500 girls in Rotherham that haven't recieved any justice, the victims of Cyril Smith, and the whole Westminster rent boy/ suff thing the lovely Maggie T helped cover up .....
The parents have failed.
How could of they failed to notice their children were attracted to the extreme end of Islam?
From their dress it would appear they were brought up in quite a strict Muslim family. So no doubt, the Koran and it's teachings were discussed often.
So when talk of Jihad and the beheadings of Kaffirs came up and your 14 year old daughter thinks it's a good idea, why didn't you act? Unless you thought it was a good idea but didn't think your 14 year old would run off to help if you said so.......
It might be insulting to these girls intelligence, it might be my mind completely misunderstanding how devoted they are to jihad. But. It seems quite possible they've gone over there lured by handsome young British Jihadi fighters over there, fighting the good fight, and they've gone seeking romance and adventure. And to that end, they are just stupid teenagers.
I imagine the reality is probably more gang rapey they might have envisaged.
I see it as another manifestation of the passive-aggressive victim mentality: I am not responsible for my behaviour as I was provoked; my daughter ran away because of the police not because of what I've filled her head with for 15 years. If you are trained into always blaming others, you do not need to reflect or question your own attitudes and behaviour as they are always, in your view, reactive. Everyone else is to blame. So there.
[quote=gobuchul said]The parents have failed.
How could of they failed to notice their children were attracted to the extreme end of Islam?
Recruitment via social media, ISIS are using this as a tool. Perhaps the girls kept quiet about who they were talking to online, not surprising.
From their dress it would appear they were brought up in quite a strict Muslim family. So no doubt, the Koran and it's teachings were discussed often.
So when talk of Jihad and the beheadings of Kaffirs came up and your 14 year old daughter thinks it's a good idea, why didn't you act? Unless you thought it was a good idea but didn't think your 14 year old would run off to help if you said so.......
Who knows what was discussed or what opinions the girls gave to their parents.
If it was via social media then the security services should be able to access these records easily enough, from past court cases though there appears to be a large number who are assisted by the local community or those with the same convictions.
How did these girls pay for the travel, surely that can be traced or do 14 year kids earn enough for flights these days (let alone how did they pay)?
I was a teenager once and know it wasn't that difficult to hide things from my parents, but I imagine that would have been stretched a little with the police and security services getting involved.
The parents are certainly not blameless, but I still feel very sorry for them. Whatever they've claimed or done, there is no suggestion that they have encouraged this. Their children are in one of the worlds most tasty war zones. I doubt very much they're being treated at all well and there is a very real risk they'll never make it home.
I'm not really concerned about the plight of the girls, but the parents will be the ones who suffer if they don't make it out.
one of the worlds most tasty war zones
Best ex squaddy typo ever 😀
RubbishThe Muslim community now have to step up theit responsibility in policing this
The 'muslim community' has no more responsibility for this than your village vicar had for the atrocities in N.Ireland.
There was an 'expert' on R4 the other day who went against this point thats been between the lines of the media reporting, as a hard line Islamic culture and as unacompanied unmarried girls they'll more likely spend the next few months in a safehouse with a priest and chaperoned everywhere untill they are married.I imagine the reality is probably more gang rapey they might have envisaged.
There was a news article a week or so ago about girls thinking the fundamentalists were fit so that was why they were going. Which is just crazy. It also said that the nutters were starting to realise that the girls were getting wise to it so had started posing as other girls supposedly giving first hand accounts of how 'fit' the blokes were. 😯
Best ex squaddy typo ever
😳
thisisnotaspoon
The Muslim community now have to step up theit responsibility in policing thisRubbish
The 'muslim community' has no more responsibility for this than your village vicar had for the atrocities in N.Ireland.
Referencing something you know nothing about(clearly) to make your point really undermines it. A lot of clergy on both sides were heavily involved in NI.
There was an 'expert' on R4 the other day who went against this point thats been between the lines of the media reporting, as a hard line Islamic culture and as unacompanied unmarried girls they'll more likely spend the next few months in a safehouse with a priest and chaperoned everywhere untill they are married.
Hard line Islamic culture that has no issues raping other muslims or holding them as sex slaves. Quite un Islamic. I have difficulty imagine how a militia on the move would be able to chaperone and protect these girls from their fighters in that situation. I could well be wrong. Anyway, if they don't end up as sex slaves they may well end up on the wrong end of a drone strike.
The 'muslim community' has no more responsibility for this than your village vicar had for the atrocities in N.Ireland.
The troubles in NI were not really about religion in the way that the fighting in Syria is.
I find it difficult to believe that the parents had no idea about their daughters attraction to extremism. If they feel that strongly to travel to help with the Jihad, then these beliefs must of built up over some time. It would seem likely that the parents hold pretty strong views.
The troubles in NI were not really about religion in the way that the fighting in Syria is.
The troubles, whilst other causes are involved, was most definitely catholic v protestant.
TBH I get your view but each conflict has as much religion or as little religion as you wish to argue it but you cannot , unless you apply different principles to each conflict, say one was religious and one was not.
I dont find it hard to imagine children keeping secrets from their parents. All children are very skilled liars.
It would seem likely that the parents hold pretty strong views.
All children are just like their parents 😕
Thats an odd view to have. They wont be the only teenagers in the World to have views at odds with their parents.
The troubles, whilst other causes are involved, was most definitely catholic v protestant.
The IRA did not perform acts of terrorism in "the name of God/Pope" or whatever. They did it for their cause of a United Ireland. The fact that NI was split along sectarian lines was due to a deliberate act by the UK government several generations previously. The original "fenians" had both Protestants and Catholics as members.
All children are just like their parents
The fact that they have their 14 year old daughters wearing the Hijab is quite a strong religous statement.
Referencing something you know nothing about(clearly) to make your point really undermines it. A lot of clergy on both sides were heavily involved in NI.
Pit one faction of a religion with questionable views on womens rights and a belief in redefining some geographical borders agaisnt another? Add in some bombing of civilian targets and there are quit a few parralels.
My point was the 'muslim comunity' as it exists as a homogenous group in your head has no more collective responsibility for these nutjobs actions than any potestant/catholic has for the actions of the few in NI. That applies equaly to Bob the Vicar in Tunbridge Wells and the local scout group as it does the local Imam or the kids who run the corner shop downstairs.
I have my doubts about political and religious ideology. It's mostly about power and money.
The fact that they have their 14 year old daughters wearing the Hijab is quite a strong religous statement.
Is it? It's pretty moderate in those circles. The Niqab is the hardcore version.
The fact that they have their 14 year old daughters wearing the Hijab is quite a strong religous statement
Not really though many non muslims read it as such.
Neat side step of my central point though many teenagers have world views at odds with their parents. Many of them keep these secret form said parents even ones in a Hijab,
Is it? It's pretty moderate in those circles. The Niqab is the hardcore version.
The Niqab is the hardcore version.
However, thinking that a 14 year old girl has to cover her hair to keep her "modesty" is pretty extreme to me.
However, thinking that a 14 year old girl has to cover her hair to keep her "modesty" is pretty extreme to me.
Fair enough, you are entitled to your views. As are they.
Its not for a muslim though which was your point
Is a sikh in a turban pretty extreme as well?
Is a sikh in a turban pretty extreme as well?
No not really.
A Sikh has long hair for religious reasons. A turban is a practical way of covering it and stop it getting in the way. Fair enough.
The Hijab is to do with covering a woman to stop her leading the poor old men into sin, with their uncontrolled lust. If a woman walked around without it she would just be a harlot and would get what she deserved. Like those Kaffir whores in Rotherham.
JY - I see that you are trying to suggest I am some sort of DM/UKIP loon. I am not. I do think that Islam is misogynistic and all the left wing hand wringing denials won't change that.
here was an 'expert' on R4 the other day who went against this point that's been between the lines of the media reporting, as a hard line Islamic culture and as unaccompanied unmarried girls they'll more likely spend the next few months in a safehouse with a priest and chaperoned everywhere until they are married.
Well IMO they will be married very soon. They've gone there as prizes for the fighters, 15 yr old virgins.
I'll laugh if one of them gets this chap;
[img] 
[/img]
@wrecker, the Aussie is there as a suicide bomber (although he posted on fb that he'd lost his bottle for that). I imagine the girls think they are getting someone better looking like the other two guys.
They've gone there as prizes for the fighters, 15 yr old virgins
To be correct, they'll be consolation prizes for the fighters - at 15 they have been on the shelf for a good 6 years for the tastes of ISIS members.
Headscarf, turban, various caps/hats etc all fine IMHO. I think we have to ask ourselves very seriously whether a niqab is appropriate in the UK. I am used to seeing them around Mayfair and in the high end shops but my view is hardening that they are not consistent with UK values.
but my view is hardening that they are not consistent with UK values.
Because the stereotypical "you're not going out dressed like that!" Has never been said by any parent to their teenage daughter ever?
Or do all women have to show some leg in order to avoid being accused of supporting terrorism.
I see that you are trying to suggest I am some sort of DM/UKIP loon. I am not. I do think that Islam is misogynistic and all the left wing hand wringing denials won't change that.
The DM and UKIP agree with you. All abrahamic religions are sexist
IMHO at the extreme end neither the western overly sexualised role of women and the mass porn out there nor the patriarchal/misogynistic nature of [some aspects of the extreme end of ]Islam is something I would like to defend.
Just like Jordan chose to be like Jordan Islamic women chose to dress like that. None of my muslim friends nor their wifes are any different from westerns ones. FWIW the scariest bossiest woman I know is a Muslim and I pity her husband. He is not even close to wearing the pants so to speak.
What I read in the media and what I see are not the same thing ; as true of islam as it is of everything else.
they are not consistent with UK values
I agree that in the UK we dont tell women how to dress.
That means some dress in ways I approve and some in ways I dont approve.
If its not consistent with our values [ and many think their men make them but this is not the case*] neither is the response of telling them how they must dress. What do you suggest ? I dont think it[ white non muslim men deciding] is a great route to end the subjugation of women.
I can see why many are uncomfortable with it but we have no response available.
* I am sure there are men and women out there who do tell their partners what to wear but its not just a muslim thing.
The French have a worthy solution to this conundrum.
All abrahamic religions are sexist
Some are more sexist than others.
This is where you role old quotes from the Old Testament to show that modern, Western Christians are just the same as ISIS.
None of my muslim friends nor their wifes are any different from westerns ones. FWIW the scariest bossiest woman I know is a Muslim and I pity her husband. He is not even close to wearing the pants so to speak.
Is this your made up Muslim friends?
my view is hardening that they are not consistent with UK values
How do we decide what these values are? They're not mine, as far as I can tell, but who says what the rules are? (honest question, btw)
Is this your made up Muslim friends?
There is nowhere for a debate to go if you consider my posts to be fabrications
I shall turn the other cheek to the "polite" way to call me a liar 🙄
Not that any of this matters but I used to work in a heavily populated Asian areas and I made many friends. Some I still see and some I dont. Amusingly the ones I do see are either Muslims or a married gay couple. I may struggle to convince you on either front of the truthfulness of this account. I guess we will both just have to live with this.
FWIW the scariest bossiest woman I know is a Muslim
Here is a good Muslim woman role model 🙂
[i]but my view is hardening that they are not consistent with [s]UK values.[/s][/i] My views as a man
If anyone thinks that men don't largely control how women are represented or "allowed" to dress in this country, you're living in la la land.
Edit: I'd go on to say that in a lot of respects, a lot of mens views in this country are equal to the views of most men through out the world. ie they seek to dominate and dictate what women wear. At least the niqab tries to subvert that.
[quote=emsz said]
If anyone thinks that men don't largely control how women are represented or "allowed" to dress in this country, you're living in la la land.
Out of interest, who's controlling how you decide to dress ?
How do we decide what these values are? They're not mine, as far as I can tell, but who says what the rules are? (honest question, btw)
Oooh Oooh Oooh, I know this one...
[img] 
?1387114758[/img]
the truthfulness of this account
Just seems incredibly fortunate that you offer an example of a married Muslim couple that is the exact opposite of what is a very real problem for a lot of Muslim women.
Are you going to argue that a woman's evidence isn't considered inferior to a man's in a Sharia Court?
Islam is misogynistic and the reasons behind why women are expected to wear the Hijab is.
At least the niqab tries to subvert that.
? It does the exact opposite! It's the most repressive costume of all!
Depends dressing like Jordan may be the most repressive of all, having fake tans and fake boobs and aspirations of beauty like that may be the most repressive to a woman. Its interesting "they" think our were of overt sexualisation is oppressive and " we " think there way is the subjugation of women, Personally i would defend neither.
TBH I am not sure why you wish to ask me more questions when you dont believe what I say so I have declined.
Of course its convenient I am hardly likely to give an account that has no bearing on the subject 😕
what is a very real problem for a lot of Muslim women
This will be your personal experience of encounters with a lot of Muslim women then ?
[i]Out of interest, who's controlling how you decide to dress ?[/i]
society
[i]? It does the exact opposite! It's the most repressive costume of all![/i]
re read those comments up there about turbans, see how that's about men judging other mens clothing choices and how they don't see a problem with it, but when it comes to how women are dressing it's a completely different story . I think most blokes don't like the niqub and hijab because it's men not being able to influence what women are wearing. Most Muslim women wear one because they want to. Most poeple you hear objecting to it are men
I am not sure why you wish to ask me more questions when you dont believe what I say.
You are trying to defend the indefensible and apart from some anecdotal evidence of a strong, liberated Muslim woman that you know, you have offered nothing but some whataboutery.
Go back to hand wringing.
And you keep to the unreturned insults and telling me what Muslim women think because you can speak for them and tell me there problems.
And you keep to the unreturned insults
Where is the insult?
You have openly stated that you are a left wing hand wringer on other threads.
their their their not there.
Most Muslim women wear one because they want to.
They wear them because their fathers indoctrinated them into doing so, they also often have them circumcised.
I don't care for the Niqab but it's not because of some weird desire to control, I see it as a barrier to communication and it always suggests to me (perhaps wrongly) that there is some duress.
Note that I don't see anyone complaining about the Sari, nor even the hijab.
Any chance you could say how you know now this as a fact and how you are able to speak on behalf of muslim women ?
[ we wont ever have enough time for you to correct my spelling]
Wrecker that is the issue white men see it as that and dont realise that it is a choice*. Be honest how many niqab wearers have you asked directly ? how many do you know?
Its just not true to think that every single wearer of that item of clothing has been forced to do so by a man.
* or to reverse do you see a Sikh man in a turban and consider he has been forced to wear it and then see a Sikh woman and see she has been forced not to wear it ?
Any chance you could say how you know now this as a fact and how you are able to speak on behalf of muslim women ?
Know what?
That Sharia Law treats women as 2nd class citizens?
Or that the Koran states that it is not correct for women to be bare headed when in the presence of men who are not family and the reasons for that are sexual?
I am not speaking on behalf of anybody.
Its just not true to think that every single wearer of that item of clothing has been forced to do so by a man.
What a ridiculous statement.
I've had enough I'm off to cook some dinner.
You have said that the dress code is
a very real problem for a lot of Muslim women
I have asked repeatedly how you know this as you seem to be saying what they think and speaking for them.
Out of interest, who's controlling how you decide to dress ?society
How does that work, exactly ? Does society pop round with a catalogue of clothes that you are permitted to wear, or do they simply lay some clothes out for you each morning ?
What happens if you ignore this "society" and wear what you want ? Beating ? Stoning ? A mild look of rebuke ? Absolutely nothing ?
[i]That Sharia Law treats women as 2nd class citizens?[/i]
I think it's men who treat women as 2nd class citizens. whether they are muslim men doesn't make a massive difference as far as I can see
Wrecker that is the issue white men see it as that and dont realise it that it is a choice. Be honest how many niqab wearers have you asked directly ? how many do you know?
Am I allowed to talk to the wearer of a niqab? Probably a dumb question!
As I said, the wearer of a big black mask doesn't seem hugely approachable to me and I have no idea on the etiquette required.
I wonder, rather than looking for some one to blame shouldn't their parents be going after them?
[i]As I said, the wearer of a big black mask doesn't seem hugely approachable to me and I have no idea on the etiquette required.[/i]
your scared by a woman wearing a cloth covering her face? seriously? 😆
How d'you think you should talk to her?
your scared by a woman wearing a cloth covering her face? seriously?
😆
I didn't say I was scared (I'm not) but I am worried that she'd get in trouble for talking to such a dashingly handsome specimen as I! 😀
Not as worried as her [s]husband [/s] keeper is
Muslim women wear one because they want to
Throughout the years I worked in an essentially (93%) muslim school, this was not my experience. They all wore the same clothes because they had no choice. In those days (late 80s early 90s) you would see a few loose veils, now it's much more severe.
How people can argue that wearing all that stuff in some way liberates them I see as completely ludicrous relativism and as such it encourages and excuses mysogyny. Live a bit. Spend some time in the East End of London and see the liberated attitudes towards women. Walk down Brick Lane after the market as a western woman on her own, see what happens.
Hmm. Seems that there are many views on this. I used to teach a class that had a lot of Omani guys on the course. They dressed like all students in jeans and t shirts. Some years later I was in Oman and met up with one of the students who I'd kept in touch with. Now he was in traditional dishdasha. The girls were wearing black robes of one sort or another. I asked him if they were obliged to do that ahs he said no, until recently they'd worn jeans but now they told him that black was the fashion. So it seems that sometimes it's an obligation and sometimes it's a tradition and sometimes it's a choice.
emsz » Out of interest, who's controlling how you decide to dress ?society
cranberry » How does that work, exactly ? Does society pop round with a catalogue of clothes that you are permitted to wear, or do they simply lay some clothes out for you each morning ?What happens if you ignore this "society" and wear what you want ? Beating ? Stoning ? A mild look of rebuke ? Absolutely nothing ?
I was going to make a similar point.
Going slightly off topic but within this subject - I was watching a Wright Show one morning the guests of which included an actress that had a very similar viewpoint to Emsz. One of the male guests pointed out that it was in fact only other women (in the tabloids and mags) that were criticising what other women were wearing or how they presented themselves and men, for the most part, don't really care.
An interesting viewpoint, I thought...
I think most blokes don't like the niqub and hijab because it's men not being able to influence what women are wearing.
I don't think I've ever disagreed with anything on here so vehemently. It's sad you believe this, I hope that life shows you the opposite of this to be true.