ATC have rules for separation for such a thing - something like 3 miles horizontal (5 miles for widebodies), and 2000 feet vertical? Something like that.
The SwissAir incident that matey-boy refers to -
pondo, they have rules against hijack tooo..
dantsw13 - what do you think about the other link then, the following on the coat tails one.
pondo, they have rules against hijack tooo..
Sorry - it was more to suggest that you're not likely to see planes bouncing around in each other's wake, rather than to say it can't have "hidden" behind another plane because of ATC rules.
Let me start by saying I have no more knowledge of this incident than is in the media.
The bottom line is, nobody has a clue what happened. There is no "stand out" theory that makes complete sense.
We are dealing with a part of the world ruled by military Juntas, where secrecy and face-saving are national pastimes.
As for the possibility of shadowing the Singapore Airlines jet - yes, it could be done, but for it to have been part of a plan, you would have to know exactly when and where the SA jet would be, and that information just isn't available to a pilot in the cockpit.
Information released so far seems to suggest a hijack, by either one of the pilots, or a passenger with high levels of aviation knowledge. My best guess is that it was either shot down(military trying to avoid 9/11 style attack) or that it tried to fly somewhere without enough fuel (Somalia?), and crashed at sea. This is pure speculation though.
I'll add my speculation to the pot - I reckon it's been shot down by mistake (a weapons test gone wrong, mis-identified etc etc) and no-one wants to own up to it.
Even if shot down on purpose, I can see no one owning up to it!!
you would have to know exactly when and where the SA jet would be, and that information just isn't available to a pilot in the cockpit.
You could argue that if he just headed off on routeP268 then he was likely to pick up a europe bound flight, there were a good few during that time period.
True - for such a well planned operation to rely on luck, though?
True - for such a well planned operation to rely on luck, though?
I dunno if it is luck, there are about 20 planes an hr flying through p268 according to chatter I've seen on the flight radar forum. He just had to get on route at a lower alt, throttle back till he picked one up and welly it to catch up.
And interestingly the 'tandem flying' one didn't seem to be rebutted on the BBC link. No idea if it's actually credible though.
And now, reports creep in from the Maldives of sightings of a "low flying jumbo jet".
As for the possibility of shadowing the Singapore Airlines jet - yes, it could be done, but for it to have been part of a plan, you would have to know exactly when and where the SA jet would be, and that information just isn't available to a pilot in the cockpit.
Unless the pilot in the Singapore airlines jet was in on it too?
And now, reports creep in from the Maldives of sightings of a "low flying jumbo jet".
Link?
I don't understand how that fire theory ties up with the aircraft making a second turn either North or South, and continuing to fly for another 6 hours or so.
And a fire that knocks out all communication systems and transponders so quickly that no distress call can be made, then knocks out the pilots, but doesn't bring the aircraft down? Sounds implausible.
Been away from ST Towers for a week or so, because of travelling.
My tuppence worth.
1. What a knowledgeable bunch we have here, it is quite the collective.
2. More than 20% of Asians don't turn their mobiles off during flights.
I've lived here for 11 years, I fly regularly (6 times a month) some bugger is always on QQ or now WeChat typing away. 3 days ago my flight from Sydney to Mainland (China) the guy near me was texting the whole way.
ps. On todays exchange rates, my tuppence is worthless.
CFH cheers. Also reported in Guardian with that link too.
Travis-This is STW all our 2p's are worthless...
ben cooper, i agree.
CFH the location does not fit with the 8.11 am last satellite ping.
Its like 3k miles away - they spotted it at 6.15 so less than 2 hrs to do 3000 miles...
If it was flying low then the range would be severely diminished which should help narrow down the search if investigating that method of evading radar.
I wonder what has been found on the pilots simulator. For the record I don't find him having a simulator weird in any way.
I too suspect the plane has probably ploughed into the sea or remote land somewhere regardless of the reason for it going off course.
I dunno if it is luck, there are about 20 planes an hr flying through p268 according to chatter I've seen on the flight radar forum. He just had to get on route at a lower alt, throttle back till he picked one up and welly it to catch up.
Other way around, more like... There's been talk of the flight going >40,000' - kick around at 40k, watch for an outbound flight on P268, then trade altitude for (a bit of) speed to slide in behind...
Just thinking aloud, like...
Other way around, more like... There's been talk of the flight going >40,000' - kick around at 40k, watch for an outbound flight on P268, then trade altitude for (a bit of) speed to slide in behind...
Yup.
For ti to work they ahve to be on track but at a differnt alt, otherwise there is a loikely hood of collison..
Less wake above too.
Low flying over the Maldives - Diego Garcia a target?
Low flying over the Maldives - Diego Garcia a target?
Possible. Also, who's just been on their hols in the Maldives, I wonder....One could get very tin foil hat brigade about all this, I suspect!
But yes, the Maldives sighting does appear to be off the track, so unless the ping's wrong, it's duff. But, if the ping was wrong, it opens things out a little to say the least.
dan given that the maldives spot was at 6.25 (+5gmt) and the last known position was at 8.11 Malyasia time +8 gmt, this is more plausible. So maldives spiot was at 3.15 on the malaysia timeline. 5 hrs to meet the arc..
CFH who has been on his hols to maldives?
not everyone moves in cfhs circles or follow the telegraphs relentless kate middleton obsession, but our future king and queen were on hols in the maldives
does seem odd the the maldives report took 10 days to appear
I must be suffering from lack of imagination as I am struggling to connect Wills and Kate to MH370 even if I go via Diego Garcia..
Diego Garcia a target?
Or destination?
But then i suppose if it was an asylum run, trying to reach American soil for whatever reason, why do it like this? Surely an airline pilot could afford a flight out there, or to Europe. But with reinforced doors it would be difficult(/impossible?) for a hijacker to get into the cockpit.
There are so many theories that are 50% possible but are then contradicted by other bits of info. As for the electrical fire one, could the smoke have incapacitated the crew and left the plane flying without any input until it crashed? Hence the transponder going off (trying to isolate faulty electronics) but the last ping being sent hours later?
As for the electrical fire one, could the smoke have incapacitated the crew and left the plane flying without any input until it crashed? Hence the transponder going off (trying to isolate faulty electronics) but the last ping being sent hours later?
I don't have any expertise or knowledge but I reckon it has to be possible, a perfect storm of catastrophes/failure.
the problem is that the post comms silence turns were programmed in using some sort of console? following the navigational waymarkers, seems a lot to do if there was a fire- that convemnietly started as they switched between air traffic control networks- that was somehow extinguished so that the plane could fly for another 7 hours but they couldnt make contact or land
I can't believe smoke would overcome 2 pilots. Oxygen mask is very easy to put on, and in easy reach. Don't believe a word Chris Goodfellow says about oxygen masks - he has no idea what he's talking about.
CFH - I've just had my holidays in the Maldives too! For a minute I thought I had been outed!! Conspiracy theories are so simple!!!
I have a feeling that fact will be stranger than fiction if we ever find out what did happen..
All those high tech knowledge etc from all over the world and they cannot even find the plane flown by two pilots from a developing country. 🙄
wtf?
where is Kaesae anyway?
where is Kaesae anyway?
Flying the plane, of course!
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All those high tech knowledge etc from all over the world and they cannot even find the plane flown by two pilots from a developing country.
So many knowledge indeed.
*facepalm gif*
Has anybody checked here....
Fantasy Island, that little fella spotted the planes every week.
If the plane has been binned in the sea, it is possible that what happened will never be known, which seems astonishing in the present day.
Wasn't there an incident a few months ago involving an aircraft having a near miss with a Chinese missile test?
Any chance they may have scored a hit this time?
And then covered it up?
No chance at all. Do you think the US pay no attention to such missile tests?
Surely the US can't know about everything that happens in the world?
They know about this thread...........
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^ superb!!!!
[quote=rossi46 ]Surely the US can't know about everything that happens in the world?
No, but I should think they know all about any Chinese missile test, and any explosion of a large airliner near military facilities.
I don't understand that picture... Who's house is that?
Isn't it kaesae's house?
Isn't it kaesae's house?
Are you saying that the Parcelforce man programmed him to do it?
Pretty awful to see that woman dragged away in the news tonight and the total evasion of any actual facts by the officials is worrying in the extreme.
Pretty awful to see that woman dragged away in the news tonight and the total evasion of any actual facts by the officials is worrying in the extreme.
But they don't know anything! I can understand the frustration of the relatives but for them to expect facts when, to put it bluntly no-one has a ****ing clue, is not really helping the situation...
Part of the problem is that the wild speculation has got mixed in with what very few facts there are and made even more of a mess of it.
BBC and others now picking apart that Chris Goodfellow's theory...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-echochambers-26640114
Part of the problem is that the wild speculation has got mixed in with what very few facts there are and made even more of a mess of it.
I completely agree - and it's making everyone nuts.
The inescapable truth is that the plane to a huge, unscheduled diversion off course, without relaying any sort of message to anyone about it. There was then a later message from the copilot ("Roger that, goodnight")
This indicates that the pilot was either unaware, under duress or complicit.
The above sounds very much like a hijacking to me.
Aussie PM says
A 24m piece of something spotted floating in the sea.... the 777 has a wingspan of 61m and the fuselage is about 6m so that would be right for a wing, wouldn't it?
yeah. Bummer. It might not be, but I was/am hopeful they were all being held up in a wharehouse in Kryswazikistaniland and might come home..
pictures on guardian
I read that apparently the search planes are getting strong radar returns on their approach to the site.
Pictures are inconclusive innit. I'm still fantasising about the stolen plane and passengers all still living..
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Downloaded the images to imgur to stopp hiogging the amsa server..
links to big images here
[url= ]24m object[/url]
[url= ]5m object[/url]
TBh I am underwhelmed, there must be millions of lumps like this floating around the ocean, just becasue they are in the expected crash zone does not mean anything. Could be simple coincidence..
Do plane wings float, then?
Yes, the number of containers alone bobbing about in the ocean is pretty amazing.
I'd have thought that a section of wing wouldn't float [just under the surface].
Indeed could be many things such as a yacht - 95% of them are white underneath and are quite likely to float just below the surface due to trapped air pockets.
Still clinging on to the hope that they'll be found on land somewhere 🙁
[quote=molgrips ]Do plane wings float, then?
I assume that sealed, empty fuel tanks have quite a bit of buoyancy?
This bit of the vertical stabiliser tailfin thingy of af447 floated..
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[quote=toys19 ]This bit of the [b]vertical stabiliser tailfin thingy[/b] of af447 floated..
Covering all the bases there 😉
sorry I fogot "uppy sideways flappy thing"..
Anyway here's hoping it isn't lumps of MH370 and they are safe(ish) hostages somewhere.
I wonder if there is a hostage negotiation going on right now and they are just keeping it quiet as they sometimes do.
Ahhh yes, some fuel stored in the wings. 🙁
I dont think there is any fuel in the "tailfinverticalstabiliseruppyflappysidewaysthing" though?
I reckon it was/is a whale
toys19 - MemberI wonder if there is a hostage negotiation going on right now and they are just keeping it quiet as they sometimes do.
as nice as that might be I think its very unlikely
for one thing it would require a lot of people to keep quiet about it, not least the kidnappers
assuming that the satelite data is accurate I think the bottom of the southern arc is by far most likely ultimate destination of the plane
if it had headed in pretty much any other direction it wouldve been picked up by radar somewhere, especially in the northern arc over some of the most fought over parts of the world
the released satellite images are a bit bollocks, im sure they have satellites that could count the hairs on your head
if it had headed in pretty much any other direction it wouldve been picked up by radar somewhere, especially in the northern arc over some of the most fought over parts of the world
Given all the chat about radar holes and piss poor organisation/transnationalcomms I do not think this assumption is true.
I am certainly no expert but im willing to bet that the chinese pay more attention than the malaysians to what flys overhead
and that the americans and russians keep a keen eye over the 'Stans
also the last estimated location based on fuel and the satelite ping put it within a 1000km of Bagram airbase
I'm no expert either, but I dunno if it is a total as you think..
the released satellite images are a bit bollocks, im sure they have satellites that could count the hairs on your head
they do, but there isn't a great deal of point in stationing them over the southern oceans...
[quote=toys19 ]I dont think there is any fuel in the "tailfinverticalstabiliseruppyflappysidewaysthing" though?
No, but it's still a hollow section with a fair amount of volume, presumably reasonably well sealed as you want the air to flow around it, not through it. Oh and good call on "tailfin" - that is at least a far better and more specific term than "tail".
Regarding the wing tanks, it's surprising just how big they are - I had a bit of involvement with conversion of some VC10s to tankers and I remember once one of the workers had to be hauled out of a wing tank as he'd been overcome by fumes - he was working completely inside the tank. Not only that, but on this set of conversions they weren't bothering to put in fuselage tanks as they didn't make that much difference to the fuel carrying capacity.
No, but it's still a hollow section with a fair amount of volume, presumably reasonably well sealed as you want the air to flow around it, not through it.
Yup, I don't need convincing that these thigns will float.. There are other septics though..
Generally wings themselves don't float unlike other smaller hollow sections. This is because the "wing spar" runs across each wing into the "cross spar" central section of the fuselage and into and across the other wing. This part is immensely strong, because it carries the whole of the planes mass (static + Dynamic), and if you have an impact big enough to rip the wings from the fuselage, the main spar tends to get "peeled" out of the wing sections, which results in massive internal damage to the fuel tanks, and hence generally a lack of buoyancy.
Of course, an impact at a certain speed and angle could foreseably just perfectly snap one wing off intact, but generally (in planes the size of the 777) doesn't happen like that. It also needs to be enough of an impact to break the shear pins that hold the engines onto the wings otherwise their mass will sink the wing.
There is also a huge difference in impact profiles between the 3 main possible impact vectors.
1) high speed vertical dive (>6000ft/min) (pilot suicide. loss of control etc) Nose first, doing >400Kts KIAS = unlikely to be any big parts left
2) high speed "pancake" inpact (>4000ft/min) (like AF447, entered from a high altitude upset into a fully developed stall) = again, only really small bits left, bits like Vert Stabiliser survive because they are on the top side of the aircraft)
3) Relatively gentle and controlled ditching into sea (~1000ft/min)(Ethiopian 961) = a few big bits left, but even then the main fuselage breaks up
4) Perfect controlled ditching (MH370 into Hudson) A much smaller plane, into flat calm water, with a high experienced glider pilot at the controls. Proves you can do it, but shows how difficult it is to do without causing massive airframe damage.
Any which way, at this time, this, and pretty much everything we "know" about the loss of this 777 is just speculation......
