Mirror Universe Boris

Better? It's all just slightly different flavours of shit sandwich. So the best result is the person who's both incompetent enough to not get their agenda through, and also awful enough to lose the next election. Genuinely I think either Raab or Truss could be best for the country in the longterm.

The worst results are the likes of Gove, Sunak, Javid, Hunt, Patel- maybe a couple of them could win an election but they'd all make hay while the sun shines and smash as much as they possibly could before leaving.

Truss. she is the one who tickles the fancy of the membership. IMo the most likely successor

Best in terms of competence of the contenders? Probably Hunt but he has no chance

Best for “the country” between now and an election, and also likely to neutralise the threat to the Tories in the South West? Hunt. Would he win over the newer intake of Tory MPs… and help them keep seats they took off of Labour? No chance. Not enough huffing and puffing from him. We’re probably doomed to get a PM not much better than Johnson when/if he goes without an election… and probably from the current cabinet of nobodies… but hopefully a short honeymoon period for that new leader with their core support would suck them into calling an election far sooner than Johnson would risk… giving the voters a chance to pick a new PM asap. Which I’d hope they would grab. Not something I’d bet money on though.

Better? It’s all just slightly different flavours of shit sandwich.

Which is why I asked.

Is there actually a favourable outcome here which was ever likely to happen? There's a couple of relatively decent Tories but I can't see Rory as the next PM.

Is there a plausible replacement Tory PM who would be an improvement on Boris?

OK so I think Gove possibly could be better for the country. The trouble is, Gove's clever but he's the sort of clever that assumes everyone that disagrees with him is stupid. And sometimes, that works- he achieved things in prisons that few tories would have, either because they're a hang 'em flog 'em arsehole, or because they're too afraid to disagree with the hang 'em flog 'em arseholes. But sometimes it's terrible, like in education. Perfect example being when he learned that the schwa was a useful thing for teaching english as a second language, and became obsessed with using it for mainstream first language english, and just could not be persuaded that it's not useful for that. "But it's good for english"

So, I reckon he'd have the potential to be a better PM, but also to be a worse one, depending entirely on whether he was implementing good ideas or stupid ideas with his cleverness and competence.

Hunt has some of the same traits- he's also smart and competent. But he's a total ****, and he'd only ever use that smartness and competence to be a total ****. Like, say what you like about Matt Hancock, his initial reaction to the pandemic was "OH **** OH **** OH ****". Hunt would have thought "how can I use this to kill the NHS" Gove of the various frontrunners is the only person I can see with any competence who we could ever hope wouldn't just use that competence to make the country worse.

Gove is full of peruvian marching powder half the time - not a good thing for a PM. cocaine effed up the city of London and the financial markets

It will be never better long term whilst politicians are wedded to small-state thinking. (I'm not talking about below inflation hand outs.)

Short-term Hunt would improve the Tory party chances and look no different to Starmer so would be a disaster for Labour.

Medium-term thinking would be the one that prepares adequately for recession. Unfortunately the Tories would see that as tax cuts.

I think the Tories will swing back at some point to calmer seas - there is little reason going forward for their populist entry. They will go back to old school thinking.

The economy will be in the line of sights now for the next few years. That will be the battle ground.

I think the Tories will make a mess either way and ultimately voter fatigue will win.

(Gove never, can't see it.)

I don't think we're done with black swan events either - they spring up from nowhere and define the political landscapes.

Cougar -

There’s a couple of relatively decent Tories but I can’t see Rory as the next PM.

If you mean Roderick James Nugent Stewart then he is no longer a Conservative MP. He was going to stand as an Indy before Covid but binned it off.

I’m not arguing there are no decent people in the Tory party,’ Hol says to Paul. I think she’s trying to keep calm now. ‘But they’re like bits of sweetcorn in a turd; technically they’ve kept their integrity, but they’re still embedded in shit.’

Iain Banks from "the quarry"

@tjagain I'm afraid I'm stealing that quote for future use. Absolute classic. You may have even sold me the book. Only read the Wasp Factory from Iain Banks.

Careful what you wish for.

Thatcher was a moderate compared to some of the arseholes now vying for power, but she was also ruthlessly efficient in getting her agenda actually implemented.

If we are going to have Tories arseholes Tories in charge then the more incompetent the better.

So the only answer is Nadine Dorries

I've heard that civil servants on the front line would hate it to be Gove because he is so impetuous and imagines his own intelligence to be superior to all advice and empirical data. He's really into creative destruction. Truss is seen as a bad choice because she is so thick.

We're all far too hung up on personalities vs. what politicians think, why they think that , what changes (if any) they would make as a result and how they would implement it.

As much as the Boris vs Starmer discussions are entertaining, they never get close to what Starmer really thinks, why he thinks that and what he would do (policy). Most of his comments are confined to hindsight / opposing things for the sake of it - seemingly without any credible / fact based alternatives.

Out of the current crop I would only really rate Gove for the following reasons:

- He has performed well across a number of ministerial briefs
- People who have worked with him consistently refer to his drive, curiosity and willingness to consider policies that were previously unthinkable - ref: prisons and the environment amongst others.
- in a number of roles he has delivered meaningful and well thought out change
- his own background (and his comments on how that shaped him) give him a perspective many politicians lack.

impetuous and imagines his own intelligence to be superior to all advice and empirical data.

Classic cocaine user then

in a number of roles he has delivered meaningful and well thought out change

Really? Name one such thing

Gove was shocking in Education, absolutely awful.

Plausable...

Acording to this Polotical Geezer I heard on the radio yesterday it wasn't the Red Wall Tories who were taking the most crap from voters, they are apprently okay with Boris as long as he sorts the Cost of Living crisis and his constant teasing of new measures keeps them happy-ish, no its the heartland, traditional Tories with 'prudent conservative values' who can't stand him. I guess it's safe to assume Party members think the same way, I reckon if Truss or Gove get into the last two, it'll be them.

Best...

Oh god.. Ben Wallance.. although god knows why.

I’ve heard that civil servants on the front line would hate it to be Gove because he is so impetuous and imagines his own intelligence to be superior to all advice and empirical data. He’s really into creative destruction.

Gove is damaged goods, the aftermath of Cameron's resignation and the fallout between Gove and Johnson did for Gove's reputation. Back in 2017, Conservative voters were polled in which Tory leadership candidate they found the least offensive, not surprisingly Gove didn't feature.

Truss is seen as a bad choice because she is so thick.

Dimmer than a dust-covered, forty-watt bulb in a coal mine. Unfortunately, Truss and Gove are close politically, to the point that she would be likely to be follow his agenda pretty closely.

Like picking your favourite rectal polyp. Probably Gove but his nose bag habit probably makes him a security risk. I need a wash.

Give is... "Dimmer than a dust-covered, forty-watt bulb in a coal mine. "

He still managed a 2:1 from Oxford University though.

Wallace seems to have high approval within the party. Military background will be popular with a number of voters. Hasn't done anything publicly disliked (unlike Sunak or Patel).

Truss, ye gads, you'd hope there was an adult operating the strings if she gets in.

But who knows, I'm not betting on any current big names, I think it will be a candidate out of leftfield.

@cheddarchallenged

Give is… “Dimmer than a dust-covered, forty-watt bulb in a coal mine. ”

That'd be Truss, no?

"That was something that impressed officials. Here was somebody who was absolutely on top of the brief and who was prepared to put the hours in. Michael was clearly up to it intellectually, and he worked enormously hard to drive his agenda."

Love him or hate him, Gove impressed his Civil Servants. I don't think he has a chance.

'Mary Ann Sieghart is a writer and broadcaster. She worked alongside Michael Gove when he was a columnist for The Times newspaper' What did you expect from Rupert's paper?

The Tories have to choose between hanging on their gains in the North or hanging on to their traditional conservative territory in the South.

Correction:

The Tory party membership get to decide this so thankfully someone like Hunt won't be in the running, I agree with rone, Hunt would be the one to make it difficult for Labour. Thankfully the Tory party membership and the cadre of morons rolled out for the TV cameras last night fail to see it.

Someone on the other thread asked (quite reasonably given the history) why Farage was all over the telly last night because he isn't relevant to the matter in question.

Made me think that a fundamental split could evolve in the Tory party. UKIP and the Brexit party were fundamentally protest parties, supported by mainly conservative voters who wanted to force the Europe issue. Johnson made the disappear.

They'll be back, to quote a phrase and this time they could break the Tory party in two, the distance between the new thuggish intake and the old guard is just too great for moderate conservatives to stomach. The schism to the right of centre is far, far greater than any schism on the left.

Hunt is probably the least worst option. I suspect he's too clever to want the poisoned chalice at the moment.

‘Mary Ann Sieghart is a writer and broadcaster. She worked alongside Michael Gove when he was a columnist for The Times newspaper’ What did you expect from Rupert’s paper?

Gove is a favourite of Murdoch, so I'd take any quotes about him from fellow Murdoch gongfarmers journalists with a pinch of salt. Gove's tenure at Education was pretty much universally disliked by anyone who worked in the profession at the time.

Give is… “Dimmer than a dust-covered, forty-watt bulb in a coal mine. ”

I was referring to Pork Markets herself.

 ‘But they’re like bits of sweetcorn in a turd; technically they’ve kept their integrity, but they’re still embedded in shit.’

OMG, largely I'm impervious to art (a real weakness) but sometimes you see something that proves the point.  That's spectacular

His books are full of gems like that. Must read stuff.

[ warning... some horrible stuff as well... pick carefully ]

warning… some horrible stuff as well… pick carefully

yes, i've been there too.  I fully understand what he i doing but some stuff sticks with you.  Same with A.L.Kennedy.  Love the writing but sometimes  you get stuff stuck in your brain that you wish wasn't there.  I guess that is also good wriing

He still managed a 2:1 from Oxford University though.

In English though.