[Closed] Minimum wage could be frozen

We can't expect companies to pay a wage that its actually possible to live on now, can we? That would adversely effect profit margins.

Just keep the minimum wage at subsistence level. The taxpayer can make up the shortfall, so whats the problem!

we're all in it together.

Well some might prefer to forgo a payrise if it meant keeping their job.

Minimum wage rises has given my wife's place a bit of a headache over the last couple of years. They have had a pay freeze for 3 years now but there are a few people on the minimum wage that went up, which meant they would now be paid the same as folks who were on a bit more but who had had their pay frozen. Those people then kicked off because their jobs had previously been graded as better paid (or they had been given an annual experience increment that was effectively being wiped out) demanding the gap be maintained which then effected the next best paid etc etc.

ot - the stupidest bit was last year the directors said they could either afford to give a tiny pay rise or a tiny one off bonus and the idiot workers voted for the bonus. That meant they were on average £100 better off that financial year but as it was a one off, £250 worse off this year and every year after that. tools!

Are they being asked to factor in the cost of subsidising people's wages through benefits because they don't get paid enough?

Minimum wage rises has given my wife's place a bit of a headache over the last couple of years.

It's not really the minimum wage causing the problem there though is it.

convert - Member
Minimum wage rises has given my wife's place a bit of a headache over the last couple of years. They have had a pay freeze for 3 years now but there are a few people on the minimum wage that went up, which meant they would now be paid the same as folks who were on a bit more but who had had they pay frozen. Those people then kicked off because their jobs had previously been graded as better paid (or they had been given an annual experience increment that was effectively being wiped out) demanding the gap be maintained which then effected the next best paid etc etc.

It's gone up by 46p since 2008...

It's not really the minimum wage causing the problem there though is it.

Well no but, but yes! It's a charity dealing with adults with learning difficulties who get most of their income from local authorities. Local government cuts and reductions in charitable giving means times are tight. The coffers are pretty empty for that sector right now. Pay freezes are inevitable.

It's gone up by 46p since 2008...

Not a lot I know, but for a charity that the sort of margins they are working on. Totally agree people at the bottom should be paid more (especially when you see what they do) - anyone fancy donating a bit from their more impressive incomes?

Glad I don't work for Convert

Profits are king!

Glad I don't work for Convert

The introduction of the minimum wage has led to British people being forced out of the job market for immigrant workers who will work for less than minimum wage off the books

- you might like to re read properly

So might you. It was referring to a hypothetical situation.

It's gone up by 46p since 2008...

46p per hour, which is almost exactly 8% over 5 years.
~1.5% per year, which is about the typical pay rise over that period.

Glad I don't work for piemonster.... 😉

When a charity pitches for a contract from LA or other government funding, it should be looking to have better working conditions than the minimum, or stay well out of it since either the service or the worker's experience will be crap. Charities should be looking to improve things, not undercut private and public sector providers.

Glad I don't work for piemonster....

Damn right you are. I'm a nice enough person most of the time.

But by eck am I an incompetent arse

When a charity pitches for a contract from LA or other government funding, it should be looking to have better working conditions than the minimum, or stay well out of it since either the service or the worker's experience will be crap. Charities should be looking to improve things, not undercut private and public sector providers.

Totally agree. And that's why this was a difficulty for them. 800 employees with I think it was 10 on minimum wage but then an exponential amount of employees on income levels above that. To maintain the gaps between pay levels about 250 employees had to have their pay increased in what was meant to be a pay freeze year. Not by a lot granted but enough to leave a hole in the finances. Pay rises is a good thing provided they could afford to do so without reducing the quality of care the service users get.

The disability care sector is appallingly paid and I guess it will remain the case until we as a population stop voting in governments that promote "efficiency initiatives" and give a little more generously to unfashionable charities and stop leaving it to donkey sanctuaries!

The introduction of the minimum wage has led to British people being forced out of the job market for immigrant workers who will work for less than minimum wage off the books

I don't see why british workers are any less able to work off the books than foreign ones.

Someone has to pay for tax cuts for millionaires!

i now want to work for you

do you have broadband and poor monitoring of the abuse of IT systems during working hours?

It is a strange one
on the one hand you can see how small companies may struggle to make ends meet and charities may be hit
on the othe rhand you have Mc Donalds paying minimum wage whilst making billions of rofit per year
we probabbly all have some sympathy for the former but realise the latter are a bunch of money grabbing etc

Funny how you only ever hear of folk who dont earnt the minimum wage [ and never had I assume] suggesting it is too high...like they would work for that rate.

one of the few thing labour did that was good and yet mor eproof what the Tories are all about , beneift cuts mixed with tax cuts for the rich and driving down of wages for those in work.

the rich get richer and the poor pay the piper - same old Tories

While company's like Tesco make huge profits while paying staff minimum wage that's topped up by government tax credits we're all in it together indeed..
Why pay more when the rest of the tax paying population subsidises them to make a profit,

Maybe we should just be grateful that we have a minimum wage in the UK, however low it may be. 90% of the world's population does not have this luxury.

Funny how you only ever hear of folk who dont earnt the minimum wage [ and never had I assume] suggesting it is too high...like they would work for that rate.

I used to work for that - and a lot, lot less before the minimum wage was even introduced. Cr*p jobs yes but they provided good experience and experience to go on and do other things.

the rich get richer and the poor pay the piper - same old Tories

Well if you can't beat them join them - start a business, take some more training, start to earn more rather than just whinging at he status quo. Tories may not be doing a great job at the moment but Labour or the other shower don't really offer a credible alternative do they?

rebel12 - Member
start to earn more

BANG - DONE! Awesome don't know why I hadn't thought of that before.

You idiot Lifer! Have you not being taking advantage of the multitude of well-paid chances for personal advancement our utopian meritocracy is presently awash with?

BANG - DONE! Awesome don't know why I hadn't thought of that before.

And while you're at it get more confident, stupid!

And stop wasting money on losing lottery tickets, just buy a few winning ones like the clever people do.

90% of the world's population does not have this luxury.

I like to remember how bad things were about the time of the Black Death, just to remind myself how lucky we all are.

I can't understand why people complain so much.

What's the answer? Force companies to spend a min portion of profit on salaries?

What's the answer? Force companies to spend a min portion of profit on salaries?

. . . no just plain old Communism, or so it would seem for some on here 🙄

What's the answer?

Well unless I have seriously misunderstood the gist of this thread, I believe that the suggestion is an increase in the minimum wage.

Ah yes... anyone who regards the present distribution of wealth in society as less than fair is a communist.

Do you find yourself referring to 'The Politics of Envy' quite often too?

no just plain old Communism, or so it would seem for some on here

You are a patriotic god-fearing American conservative and I claim my £5

[i]The disability care sector is appallingly paid and I guess it will remain the case until we as a population stop voting in governments that promote "efficiency initiatives" and give a little more generously to unfashionable charities and stop leaving it to donkey sanctuaries![/i]

I don't believe that's the fault of any government, but rather a short fall of the Human condition.

[i]the rich get richer and the poor pay the piper - same old [s]Tories[/s] [b]Greed[/b] of people.[/i]
Again, I'd say its more a failing of people. Sure, the rich love it at the top and whizz on the poor while telling them its raining. Push the rich on the subject and they will reply with the old line that's its all there for the taking, just got to work for it.
Its all bent out of shape, imo, just to suit the ones at the top.

Imo, minimum wage was a poor idea as it actually became the [i]maximum[/i] wage.

The disability care sector is appallingly paid and I guess it will remain the case until we as a population stop voting in governments that promote "efficiency initiatives" and give a little more generously to unfashionable charities and stop leaving it to donkey sanctuaries!

Surely the disability care sector should be properly funded by the state, like the NHS, rather than relying on charitable donations.

Push the rich on the subject and they will reply with the old line that's its all there for the taking, just got to work for it.

But it is though isn't it? Okay might be a lot more difficult if you're from a poorer background but still more than possible.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Sugar ]A Famous Example[/url]

Think you will find that most successful business people are successful not because of luck but because they have the desire to work hard, work smart, well past the 9-5 and because they don't expect to be spoon fed stuff on a plate.

So should everybody in the country become a successful businessman? Or are there some jobs that require relatively little training/skills/qualifications but are still socially important, for which people shouldn't be paid a pittance they can't live on? Hmmm....

Solo - Member

Imo, minimum wage was a poor idea as it actually became the maximum wage.

A company I used to work for ~15yrs ago pays its workers less now than it did then. 💡

But it is though isn't it?

Everyone in Britain could be rich without anyone being poor ? What marvelous news ! When did this happen ?

Btw, if everyone is rich, ie, everyone has the same amount of money, isn't that communism ?

The economic problems won't be solved by making the poor poorer.

Think you will find that most successful business people are successful not because of luck but because they have the desire to work hard, work smart, well past the 9-5 and because they don't expect to be spoon fed stuff on a plate.

So what your saying is that everyone who isn't successful is basically a layabout, and its all their own fault? For their failure to grasp one of the plentiful opportunities for self-advancement in our utopian meritocracy?

You are Ian Duncan Smith and I claim my £5 of food vouchers 😆

binners - Member

So what your saying is that everyone who isn't successful is basically a layabout, and its all their own fault? For their failure to grasp one of the plentiful opportunities for self-advancement in our utopian meritocracy?

No that isn't what he is saying.
I work hard, but there are people that work harder.
Always try and remember; it doesn't matter how clever you are there is always someone [s]cleverer[/s] more intelligent. 😉

And no matter how hard you swim there is always someone trying to force your head below the water.

Think you will find that most successful business people are successful not because of luck but because they have the desire to work hard, work smart, well past the 9-5 and because they don't expect to be spoon fed stuff on a plate.

dear sweet jesus are you for real?

Btw, if everyone is rich, ie, everyone has the same amount of money, isn't that communism ?

Ah, so you do agree with rebel12?

There is a lot of luck in being successful, for every Richard Branson, there are plenty of people with as much determination who didn't make it. Every closed down small shop is someone's broken dream and probably most of their life savings down the drain....

Yawn

Absolutely aracer.

Now I understand why he chose his username.

Haha Ernie I was just thinking the same thing!

Has he called anyone a pleb yet? 🙂

Well unless I have seriously misunderstood the gist of this thread, I believe that the suggestion is an increase in the minimum wage.

But that apparently causes harm for charities whilst still alloying the evil that are Tesco and McDonalds to have massive profits whilst just paying market rate for salaries.

Think you will find that most successful business people are successful not because of luck but because they have the desire to work hard, work smart, well past the 9-5 and because they don't expect to be spoon fed stuff on a plate.

Well you'll work harder
With a gun in your back
For a bowl of rice a day

B*gg*r all percent of b*gg*r all is stil b*gg*r all.

I guess my real issue is with CEO and share holders who keep their boot on the throat of the pay scales for employees, in order to max-out profits. Frankly, were I CEO, whatever. I'd skim £5 Million off the top of £100 million profit and get even the lowest paid employee onto a [i]reasonable[/i] wage.
*no prizes for pointing out that behaviour such as this would see me ejected from my position at the AGM*

Wasn't google in the news recently for sitting on loads of cash. Not returning it to share holders ?.

Of course, cruising down the isles of your office, throwing cash at employees has to be tempered against the larger picture wrt inflation, etc. But when I hear that people are still earning less than £8 per hour, while working for a company that makes £2 Billion profit. I have to wonder about the morals at those people responsible for that.
And no, its not the fault of any government, imo, but rather a gross example of the greed which corrupts those at the top.
Absolute power, etc, etc.

Yeah but that's the point - it's the shareholders who decide not the management as such. If management can put forward a reasoned justification for paying more than the market rate then maybe the shareholders will go for it. So really we're reliant on the law - and companies obeying the law. As most shares are held by institutions who have to do the best for their stakeholders there's never going to be any altruism here.

I guess it'd be impossible to administer but maybe a sliding scale of minimum wage - smaller businesses (that IME genuinely do struggle at times with paying minimum wage) one level, bigger companies at a different (sliding scale) value.

Though maybe that'd just skew the market to make everyone want to work at the big companies.

[i]there's never going to be any altruism here.[/i]

Agreed. Its not a Gov issue, it's the greed of people.
Now, let us all worship at the alter of Greed.

[img] [/img]

The best way to drive up wages is to have full employment. The best way to drive down wages is to have mass unemployment.

[i]The best way to drive up wages is to have full employment. The best way to drive down wages is to have mass unemployment.[/i]

Sounds like you're describing market forces to me......
😉

Why pay more when the rest of the tax paying population subsidises them to make a profit,

binners - Member

Think you will find that most successful business people are successful not because of luck but because they have the desire to work hard, work smart, well past the 9-5 and because they don't expect to be spoon fed stuff on a plate.

So what your saying is that everyone who isn't successful is basically a layabout, and its all their own fault? For their failure to grasp one of the plentiful opportunities for self-advancement in our utopian meritocracy?

No I'm not saying that, just that for most people in the UK the opportunities are there if you really want it. If you don't then fine but please don't whinge at those who have taken these opportunties, provide jobs for others (regardless whether minimum wage or not), and now as a result earn more than you do.

Many people if you ask them would want to be rich - some choose to work hard and take risks to get there, some choose to work hard but are content to work for someone else - making their company owners rich, a few are born with it, others want to be rich but decide to play the lottery and watch daytime telly instead.

Different courses for different horses, and before you ask, no I am not IDS or rich - but I don't resent those that have achieved this through hard work if that's what they want.

just that for most people in the UK the opportunities are there if you really want it

you need to get out more and open your eyes

The best way to drive up wages is to have full employment. The best way to drive down wages is to have mass unemployment.

Sounds like you're describing market forces to me......

sounds like he is voting UKIP to me 😉

Sounds like you're describing market forces to me......

Of course I am. Haven't you noticed that we live in a market economy then ?

😕

just that for most people in the UK the opportunities are there if you really want it. If you don't then fine but please don't whinge at those who have taken these opportunties, provide jobs for others (regardless whether minimum wage or not), and now as a result earn more than you do.

My feelings exactly although I do think the minimum wage is a good idea and should be increased in order to wean people off state benefits.

sounds like he is voting UKIP to me

Someone else who is shocked to discover that wages reflect what is happening in the market ?

How bizarre.

I think they should put in a penalty employer NI rate for hourly rates below the "living wage" to encourage employers to pay it

It should also be introduced for any "internship" that lasts longer than two weeks, too many organisations abusing free labour

[i]Of course I am. Haven't you noticed that we live in a market economy then ?[/i]

Well, we did, kinda, until minimum wage came in. Now its market forces of a different nature. Now company boss doesn't have to pay you more than minimum. Its the bench mark, the standard, at a certain strata of the employment market.

Anyway, I've said my bit.
🙂

EDIT:
BTW, I assume you're not saying I'd vote UKIP !
I haven't, I won't.

You can't make statements about 'making work pay' to justify cutting benefits, then in the next breath talk about cutting the minimum wage. That's just nonsensical.

Different courses for different horses, and before you ask, no I am not IDS or rich - but I don't resent those that have achieved this through hard work if that's what they want.

I don't think that anyone resents someone who is rich and successful due to their own hard work, but take a look at who we're presently ruled by. We have a cabinet stuffed full of Millionaires. Have they earned it through their hard work? Have they ****!! With a couple of exceptions they all inherited it. They had their vast wealth handed to them, then were provided with a gilded education that instantly gave them an absolutely enormous advantage over about 99% of the countries population

Actual social mobility in this country [url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/may/22/social-mobility-data-charts ]is going backwards[/url]

With a couple of exceptions they all inherited it.

EDIT And they probably paid tax on it too

Whoosh!

[img] [/img]

binners - Member

but take a look at who we're presently ruled by.

It's almost as though you're inferring that the previous government was devoid of anyone of privilege.
I'm sure that's not what you wanted to make out, what with it being so utterly untrue, but thought I'd point it out to you anyway.
🙂

sbob - I'm not defending the frankly completely useless labour party. They're equally as unrepresentative. Which is my whole point. We now have a political class, who just wear different coloured ties, but who's policies are essentially the same

I'm just trying to stress how ridiculous the notion is that we live in some kind of meritocracy, where everyone has an equal chance to succeed.

Yes Binners I agree it's a shame that a lot of politicians have large inherited wealth but that's who we're stuck with for the moment. Shockingly it's just the same whether Conservative, Labour or Lib Dem.

Anyway here's food for thought though: [url= http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2107031/UK-Budget-2012-Top-1-earners-contribute-income-tax.html ]Just Googled this - I'm not a Mail Reader BTW[/url]

I'm just trying to stress how ridiculous the notion is that we live in some kind of meritocracy, where everyone has an equal chance to succeed.

I didn't say that everyone had an equal chance - [b]but everybody does have a chance[/b] and despite some frankly horrendous upbringings there are some real success stories out there.

Everybody does have a chance, and I buy a lottery ticket based on chance but my chance is very small. Some people have very small chances in life others very big. The example of one person beating the odds is the same if its a lottery winner or Lord Sugar, fairly meaningless.

I'm not defending the frankly completely useless labour party. They're equally as unrepresentative.

Really ? In the context of privilege? Are you sure ?

My charge sheet against New Labour is extensive, but it doesn't include that it is led by an unrepresentative privileged few in exactly the same way as the Tory Party is. In fact I would say the opposite, ie, New Labour leaders and senior politicians tend to come from rather typical middle-class backgrounds.

but everybody does have a chance and despite some frankly horrendous upbringings there are some real success stories out there. ou just need to ignoring the 99.9999999% of people who failed

I am not religious but it would be somethign like the parable of the sower

Yes some escape despite the obvious disadvantage but its utter BS to think we all could if we just tried hard enough or to suggest we all get a fair chance at escaping.
or fo course the lottery example becasue that us what it is really- its not a practical way out for all

rebel12 - Member

Anyway here's food for thought though: Just Googled this - I'm not a Mail Reader BTW

My immediate thought after ingesting those stats, is that the top 1% clearly earn far too much compared to the rest of the country.

My immediate thought after ingesting those stats, is that the top 1% clearly earn far too much compared to the rest of the country.

My thoughts exactly

anagallis_arvensis - Member

Everybody does have a chance, and I buy a lottery ticket based on chance but my chance is very small. Some people have very small chances in life others very big. The example of one person beating the odds is the same if its a lottery winner or Lord Sugar, fairly meaningless.

Get real, Lord Sugar was a famous example not the norm.

The norm might be considered a chap I know who failed completely at school, lived in a really bad estate in Rochdale, left with no qualifications. Jobcentre found him a job as a trainee carpenter on almost zero pay whilst training. Found he liked it and worked very hard for the next few years. Whilst working on various shopfits he thought 'I could do this'.

Left, bought a cheap van and took on contract work. Contracts grew through him working hard and delivering a good and reliable job. Now he has 30 others working for him and yes he's probably a millionaire I'd say - drives an Aston anyway. His company is now one of my firm's suppliers.

So the chance is there for everyone - just depends how hard you're prepared to work, not luck.