[Closed] Minimum travel before work'll book a hotel

Theoretically I could now have a week with up to 25 hours of driving on top of me 37.5

If you are driving for work then that surely comes out of your 37.5 hours - otherwise you are being forced to work 62.5 hours per week.

Drive slower, then it's 2.5hrs away

F that. I'd imagine there has to be something around the work/time directive? ie 8 hours work, combined with driving is excessive?

I think it depends on where your "normal" place of work is. Have a look here..

http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1373

I would have that that any employer expecting one of their employees to drive nearly 5 hours a day as well as carrying out a full days work would have difficulty in defending that policy in the event of said employee being in involved in any form of work related accident. That including the driving just under 2.5 hours on the way home.

Many of the businesses that I work with/ for do not allow this kind of behaviour.

If you are driving for work then that surely comes out of your 37.5 hours – otherwise you are being forced to work 62.5 hours per week.

This.  Travel in work time only.  When they realise that after travelling for 5 hours you can only work for 2.5 hours, I'm pretty sure they will change their policy.

Some of my mates will drive 3 or 4 hours each-way for work, but they'll usually work a shorter day AND more importantly they're paid for the travel time (barring the first 30 mins each-way I believe).

I wouldn't personally commute to a single place of work for 5 hours a day for anything, but if it was a one-off day I'd rather do that than stay over, my days of living the Partridge life are long gone.

Travel time = work tine. Simple.

Not unusual for folks to travel 2 hrs to and from the orriface in my world.

Granted some end up walking in at 10, but don’t normally leave till 5’ish.

Try that.

Be the first.

See what happens.

Stuff that. Travel in their time. That's the way I've been expected to do it for the last 20+ years.

Is this travel to and from the same destination every day? And work pays for your travel expenses? 4 nights in a travel lodge and 5 hours driving surely is cheaper that 25 hours driving. And that's before the time taken is factored in.

I suspect we need more information about where your normal place of work is, full time or a suby etc etc.

One off vs sequential days for me, it generally comes down to common sense and where you are travelling and how often. though I do like using the google maps arrive at or leave by calcs which give a more realistic travel time.

Also driving time and breaks so every 2 hrs you need to take a break from driving.

travelling in their time is ok but if the course you are on starts at 8.30 am til 5pm..computer still says no.

thats why no one attends at ours any more.

Idiotbastids.

I don't have a normal place of work as such, been here a year and only seen head office three times - I'm a trainer so travelling around to sites training folks on a daily basis.

Also driving time and breaks so every 2 hrs you need to take a break from driving.

Interesting - a half hour break? There's my 2.5 hours! 🙂 The frustrating thing is, traffic can easily and frequently push a two hour journey over their abitrary limit, but bit late to book anything then.

The frustrating thing is, traffic can easily and frequently push a two hour journey over their abitrary limit, but bit late to book anything then.

Hence using the google maps estimates for the travel time. Or just book into the next travel lodge you see on the motorway when your sat nav says it's going over.

We have a policy that over 2hrs or a long day but closer, it becomes an option.

We have clear "don't be a d*ck" expectations over too long days, managers will hold us to account.

We also have clear time of in lieu allowance, so when we do put in a long day, we get time back within a fortnight usually. As example, I am away down south next week with 5am start Wednesday and return at 10pm on Firday - same again for next three weeks. I have already booked off half days and some Fridays end of Nov/Dec.

It is a small organisation, and easier to manage this side of things.

ECJ ruled 3 years ago that for those workers without a fixed place of work, travel time is working time.  So they can't tell you to drive 5 hour round trip and work more than a few hours.

Is it not more complicated than that? If your were say an area trainer for the SE of England in a random firm with no fixed place of work and decided during your employment to move house out of the SE to say Plymouth your employer could not be expected to count the time whilst you drove back to your area from Devon as work time just because you were daft enough to move so far from where you worked.

Last I checked, hours are not units of distance and motorways do not have a minimum speed limit.

 just because you were daft enough to move so far from where you worked.

In which your contract would include your current location as your home base and have a clause in there out that.

Last I checked, hours are not units of distance and motorways do not have a minimum speed limit.

Exactly, it is a measure of duration which is the key aspect to fatigue. Hence the right unit of measurement for this situation,.

I think he's trying to say in a slightly obtuse way.... drive slower and make sure it is over 2.5 hours.

do you check the estimated time on google using the time of travel? it accounts for jammed motorways and roadworks

When I was doing that sort of work I kept an informal travel "budget" of 10 hours a week (1 hour each way x 5 days) which I think is reasonable on top of full days - it's as far as I'd ever be willing to commute daily. If they wanted me to go somewhere 4 hours away then that's fine but it pretty much wipes out travel for the rest of the week unless I eat into the working day. The odd week over was OK as long as I balanced it out around it, if it got too regular I'd raise it.

Is it not more complicated than that? If your were say an area trainer for the SE of England in a random firm with no fixed place of work and decided during your employment to move house out of the SE to say Plymouth your employer could not be expected to count the time whilst you drove back to your area from Devon as work time just because you were daft enough to move so far from where you worked.

Fair enough but it's not what's happened in my case, I'm still in the same house, work are still sending me round the Wrekin.

do you check the estimated time on google using the time of travel? it accounts for jammed motorways and roadworks

I didn't until this week - you better believe I do now!

I think what's being suggested is a 10mile trip at the appropriate speed could trigger 2.5hour journey time if you wanted to try it.

I don't think any company would mandate a minimum speed someone should be driving to achieve a set distance within that time frame, or a expectation that you should drive at the speed LIMIT for any duration?

Yeah, I understand, just not sure how practical that is - got a week in Bristol soon, they'll decline a hotel request because it's only a couple of hours away, not sure how likely it is to be overturned if I tell them I'll be doing 55 and therefore will be over 2.5 hours.

I'd be asking what happens when you have worked your full hours by Wednesday?

Then give them the travel time with traffic considered.

I’d be asking what happens when you have worked your full hours by Wednesday

Time off in lieu.

That month I spent traveling China, Singapore and Myanmar for work last year = muchos time in lieu.

got a week in Bristol soon, they’ll decline a hotel request because it’s only a couple of hours away, not sure how likely it is to be overturned if I tell them I’ll be doing 55 and therefore will be over 2.5 hours.

I can understand not wanting to pay for hotels for day trips (though I'd be a bit cross about it), but if you're there for the entire week that's absolutely ludicrous.  If they won't budge on that I'd be seriously job-hunting.

For what it's worth 5 colleagues and I set off to drive to Romford from Manchester at 10pm last night. we arrived at 2.30 am and worked until 11 am. I've just got home around 30 minutes ago. Not a wink of sleep between us. And we're back in at 4 am tomorrow.

For what it’s worth 5 colleagues and I set off to drive to Romford from Manchester at 10pm last night. we arrived at 2.30 am and worked until 11 am. I’ve just got home around 30 minutes ago. Not a wink of sleep between us. And we’re back in at 4 am tomorrow.

FWIW your a bunch of ****ing idiots and probably a danger to others on the roads. There is some serious liability there if something goes wrong. What does your company policy on travel and working hours say?

Have you discussed this with the person that approves hotel bookings/your expenses? Call me crazy, but it's worth a shot if you haven't.

Exactly, it is a measure of duration which is the key aspect to fatigue.

This. Any company that expects you to drive around should have a fatigue policy. There will be total daily limits etc. Also if I remember correctly there is a restriction on the time between shifts of 11 hours. You may also fall under this.

If you are conducting training then I assume being on time in the morning is pretty important for company reputation.

Not unusual for folks to travel 2 hrs to and from the orriface in my world.

As others have said it depends if this is your / there usual place of work. If you take a job 2hr away or move 2hr away from work that is up to you but if you are traveling on behalf of work it's work time. I travel abroad about 12 times a year but even if it was still in the UK it would make no difference. Travel for work is work.

Following the ECJ reference above, if travel time counts as work time for staff with no fixed work place, could the work & travel time aggregated for that Bristol trip push your hourly pay for that week under the minimum pay rate?

For what it’s worth 5 colleagues and I set off to drive to Romford from Manchester at 10pm last night. we arrived at 2.30 am and worked until 11 am.

Was it a sec18 search? I’d be very reticent about those sort of hours nowadays as anything goes wrong you’ll get hung out to dry. I’ve also been coming home after similar on the m1 and woken to see that the driver was asleep, which pretty much brought to an end my working ridiculous / dangerous  hours

75miles and/or "at management's discretion" here. Lots of good advice on here already re: working time directive and time taken driving to/from your place of work.

What you state in your original post seems unreasonable to me.

Not unusual for folks to travel 2 hrs to and from the orriface in my world.

As others have said it depends if this is your / there usual place of work. If you take a job 2hr away or move 2hr away from work that is up to you but if you are traveling on behalf of work it’s work time. I travel abroad about 12 times a year but even if it was still in the UK it would make no difference. Travel for work is work.

Its the “usual” place of work in this particular situation.

Its accepted that coming in late/early then apply some sense of reasoning to the time you are in, then buggering owf is all accepted.

In the OP’s case I too would count travelling time into “working hours”

I think we're not allowed to drive more than 200 miles and do a day of work.

I'm not sure because they always offer a hotel even if it's less, if the customer is paying. I've had regular hotels 75 miles from home.

"Yeah, I understand, just not sure how practical that is – got a week in Bristol soon, they’ll decline a hotel request because it’s only a couple of hours away, "

Used to do training at a satellite branch 2 hours away.

Used to leave at regular work time and get to plant about 9.30 and leave again about 2..30 in afternoon so we were back in home location at lousing time.

Worked out well .

Working time directive is pretty clear on this

Driving time counts as working time.  YOu must have and cannot opt out of having 11 hours rest between working shifts ( except in very rare circumstances)  You cannot be made to work more than 48 hours a week unless you sign the opt out

There are also regulations about driving times

Join a union!

OP, IT training? New(ish, about a year) owners a VC company?

I’m a trainer so travelling around to sites training folks on a daily basis.

Ditto. Mind you, I've been a contractor for the last 5 years, 7 before that I was working for an insurance company with company car (which I'd presume you have?)

These days, if I want the gig then I have to travel. My principal will pay for the hotel so what I do is reckon the travel time and distance and work out whether it's "worth" them paying for me to stay over. Worst case for me is Manchester which is only 56 miles away but is a pig to get into; if it's part of a longer trip then I'll often just book it if the price is roughly the same as the 112m @35ppm plus parking.

BITD my employer had a 2 hour rule as well. When I worked for operations we were allowed a bit of flexibility on that if we had a multiple night stay. Of course, if you're cipd then the rules are that you need to be in the room 1 hour prior to the start time and 1/2 hour afterwards so make sure you factor that in 😉

When all the regional trainers were moved to work for Learning and Development (!) the world kinda went to pot. The new bully / boss did some work on our working weeks and with travel, working to cipd rules and to the training plan, we were all doing 60+ hours per week.

So then they told us to stop monitoring our travel time 😉

I am mostly talking about stand-up training delivery here as well. In other words, you're active and "on show" for up to 8 hours per day. If it's more of a coaching style you're doing then I reckon it's perhaps a bit less critical.

In your situation I'd say "it depends". How much can you arrange for yourself without involvement? How much of an "us and them" approach do you want to have? I'm fortunate that I don't regard what I do as work - I enjoy it and would be willing to do pretty much whatever was needed. I'd make sure I knew the rules about this (see posts above), and be sure of the google maps times for the actual times of travel. And reckon in your actual mileage rate and overnight costs. Does your employer pay for meals etc? If you contract you're not paid for these so you find all sorts of ways of doing things cheaply.

As an aside, that boss I mentioned above once pulled up a colleague on a 3 mile difference between a journey to a venue, and the return. At 14p per mile. So £0.42. The conversation took approx 10 minutes to have between someone earning about £25 p/h and someone on about £30 p/h. And that's the problem with bean counters - sometimes you're better off working through the problem yourself and working out the ways around the issue, no matter how correct you are. I wouldn't want to be out of regular employment at the moment, even though LinkedIn tells me there are jobs around.

Does anyone actually check what you book? What does your manager say about this? Do you log your hours?

I don't know exactly where you live but you could always threaten to use public transport for your Bristol trips? With all the mesing about that entails the travel time will go way up, and the cost of daily return fares to Bristol will make a hotel look cheap.

More seriously, HSE has a Driving at Work leaflet downloadable from the web. That asks some pretty pointed questions.

Costs of traveling, be it mileage payments or miles on your lease car, surely would make a girlh look like a no brainer for the Bristol gig? Never mind the h&s and minimum wage points raised?

If it's a regular thing then it should def be part of your normal working hours. I only travel rarely and then it's usually just for one day and to a client site (and they'll be expecting me there 9am-5pm as that's what they'll have paid for). So if it's more than a couple of hours travel I'll expect my company to fund a hotel stay the night before - I don't bother trying to claim travel time back though (I would if I were expected to do it regularly though...)