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Well I must have been ignorant of all that then...
Didnt really damage the Pub industry though did it?
Odd, my mind must have blanked it all out. Probably because I’ve never smoked or knocked about with anyone who does/did.
4% ? That’s about average for a beer isn’t it? I drink real ales range of 3.8-4.2% and don’t “taste” strong..
So what have the Beer Industry said about the minimum pricing ?
And where does the uplift in charge go? Does the beer industry get the uplift then the Govt cream it back off them or is it just an industry based tax..
And where does the uplift in charge go? Does the beer industry get the uplift then the Govt cream it back off them or is it just an industry based tax..
Nothing has changed. The retailer sets the retail price. The wholesaler/manufacturer sets the wholesale price. There's some negotiation. In theory, one or the other (or both) will show some increased profit. The UK Govt will cream some of that off as part of normal taxation (VAT and Corporation tax).
Purely anecdotal Bikebuoy, but since the smoking ban, pubs where I live are very definitely busier. The only downside is that beer gardens/terraces are now pretty much the domain of the smoker. A small price to pay I suppose.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4845310.stm
Scroll to the bottom for the anti-smoking ban attitudes.
It seems to be a terribly thought out idea. This clearly affects the poorest in society who will now have to start stealing to fund their cider habit.
A more pressing issue though is surely for small grocery stores to exploit this more a crazy amount of profiteering.
For example, in a deprived housing scheme where let’s say 100 bottles of frosty jacks are sold daily. I’ve based this on 30 people drinking 3 or 4 per day. Used to cost £4 a bottle. Now costs around £12 per bottle. If the shop keeper sources this from an English wholesaler for let’s say £2 a bottle? Then sells it in Scotland for £12 a bottle then that’s £1000 a day profit. £350,000 profit on cider annually.
Someone else said vast majority of Scottish population live 2 hours away from border. I would say it’s more like an hour in a van each week. What measures are in place to prevent this?
I will bet you no significant black market starts and there will be extra profits for the booze makers and sellers but it also removes the market for this cheap nasty stuff and I am sure will modify behaviour.
There is no control on wholesale price just retail price - do you really think wholesalers will have two prices for south and north of the border? You do realise that many supermarkets actually sell some booze well below cost to get folk to come in the shop?
Remember this is based on good academic research and its simply not going to be worth folk trying to set up a black market.
tjagain, I’m willing to take that bet, what do I know anyway! So are you saying that as of now a shopkeeper in Scotland can buy a bottle of cider from Wholesaler in Scotland for around £2 and be forced to sell it for £12?
Bikebouy wrote,
"Also the bag charging was widely accepted as a way of reducing plastic waste and most people accepted that, then bought “bags for life” or reusable bags and hardly anyone moaned or complained, in fact it has been widely accepted as success."
I'll just leave these here
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/you-can-tell-they-are-clutching-at-sraws-when/
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/5-pence-per-carrier-bag-in-wales-from-today/page/2/
Leave it where you like, still think the charge is an acceptable way of reducing plastic bags in refuse or the ocean.
Should be £1
plastic bag use has dropped 80+ percent in scotland. Of course here the bag tax is simple and universal. In england they put all sorts of exemptions
Burnbob - thats the long and the short of it yes. Minimum retail price. The scots government does not have the power to put up taxes so this is the only mechanism they can use.
unlike cigarettes where high UK prices are higher across all brands and you can put thousands of £ worth in a car boot who is really going to smuggle loads of cheap industrial cider? How long would it take to sell a van full and its much harder to conceal. If all booze was going to me more expensive then yes it would but when the only significant difference is the cheap rotgut then its simply not going to be significant. One set of people this is aimed at is kids. ATM they can get screaming drunk for a couple of quid. after this they won't be able to.
"Remember this is based on good academic research and its simply not going to be worth folk trying to set up a black market."
No need to do a black market. An online order will do it. It is legal to buy from England for delivery in Scotland.
Tjagain, are you confirming retailers of cheap cider in Scotland are making £10 per bottle profit?
No
I am saying there is a minimum retail price. I suspect that this cheap industrial stuff will just dissapear from scottish shops - why by frosty jacks for £12 when decent cider costs the same
IRC - whiskey is not significantly affected. The sort of folk who buy cheap booze that will go up in price are not the sort of folk who are that organised.
<div class="bbcode-quote">
The guys at Tennents told me they were looking at moving to 330ml cans and smaller pack sizes as people have a sort of mental upper limit for how much they’ll pay for a slab of beer
</div>
If that’s their attitude, I hope this is only the start of things to come and the govt makes life as difficult for them as it has the tobacco companies!
Actually thats not a bad outcome. If Mr Tennents-drinker starts drinking smaller volumes and less of it that potentially achieves the objective.
It seems to be a terribly thought out idea. This clearly affects the poorest in society who will now have to start stealing to fund their cider habit.
Well its been many years in the making, based on academic research, supported by similar models in different countries. Its been argued through numerous court cases, so as government policy goes its probably had more scrutiny than most. I'm not sure that the current cheap-cider drinking alcoholic is the real target. They might benefit but as you imply if they have an addiction that wont change with price and they will need to service it somehow or potentially worse move to another drug. However, the aim is really to help stop people ending up in that situation to start with, and to also reduce the number of people are not addicted and function relatively normally but where alcohol blights their lives both in the short term and the long term.
For example, in a deprived housing scheme where let’s say 100 bottles of frosty jacks are sold daily. I’ve based this on 30 people drinking 3 or 4 per day.
I doubt there are many housing scheme local shops selling 100 bottles a day - they can only sell drink 10-10 in Scotland so that is a bottle every 7 minutes.
"Whiskey is not significantly affected" - if frosty jack is 12 quid a bottle, whisky and the stuff will go up in price too. A knock on effect will happen, and everyone will get robbed, brewerys must be rubbing their hands.
Doesn't really bother me mind, probably buy a carry out about 6 times a year if I'm lucky(the afore mentione tennents! 😆 lager is lager to me, youse can ram yer real ale hipster pish! 😆 ) or a nice bottle of rum or whisky which I'll usual spent about £25 on(any money, I'll now be spending £30 or so), other wise I'll be in the pub if I'm drinking.
I think it'll have a small effect, doubt it'll be anything like the smoking or plastic bag ban.
The power of getting rattled out yer tits is strong in the uk! Drug dealers will probably take up some slack too.
I am saying there is a minimum retail price. I suspect that this cheap industrial stuff will just dissapear from scottish shops – why by frosty jacks for £12 when decent cider costs the same
It's certainly possible that some shops will still stock it in order to maximise their profits. Still, HMRC will have a minor tax windfall of around £1.60 per bottle either way....
Whiskey is not significantly affected – if frosty jack is 12 quid a bottle, whisky and the stuff will go up in price too. A knock on effect will happen,
Why?
well if cheapest bottle of whisky is up £2, you'll at least see £2 quid added on right up the range. I'd bet retailers will take the piss. Plus whisky is seen as more premium to yer frosty jacks, so if it's priced similar, it'll take some of that shine away.
Completely silly idea giving them the profits of this btw.
plastic bag use has dropped 80+ percent in scotland. Of course here the bag tax is simple and universal. In england they put all sorts of exemptions
England's plastic bag usage drops 85% since 5p charge introduced
Burnbob, frosty jacks will no longer exist, as no one will pay 12 quid a bottle, so your argument is slightly flawed.
Seosamh77 spot on, supermarket gin is now about the same price as branded stuff, so the brand's will up prices a few quid to stay 'premium'.
Although, not all non-tennents lager is hipster pish!
😆 Laying it on a bit thick there eh?
Completely silly idea giving them the profits of this btw.
And your solution would be?
6 free cans with every breakfast! 😆
status quo tbh, it's everyones right to **** themselves up how ever they like. I don't see a problem.
I see a problem. It's in the cost to society (financial burden on the NHS) and the increased violence and abuse that comes from alcohol over-indulgence.
Why will other brands go up in price?
Given the scottish government has no power of alcohol duty a minimum price is the only mechanism they have to stop this very cheap alcohol that is responsible for so much misery and deaths - and its especially kids / youths.
Those cheap lager multibuys in supermarkets are often loss leaders anyway.
Why will other brands go up in price?
because the lower end 'brands' such as London dry, whyte Mackay etc won't want to be the same price as supermarkets own brands.
I see a problem. It’s in the cost to society (financial burden on the NHS) and the increased violence and abuse that comes from alcohol over-indulgence.
people are still going to over indulge. Prohibition (and lets be honest here, this is basically attempting a part prohibition on the lower stratas of society) doesn't have a great sucess rate.
You can't ban your way to the perfect society. I'm out, if that's where an independent scotland wants to go.
Cheerio
Collective punishment is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions.
Cheerio
to an IS? Yip, you need those scallywags their votes. Going after their friends and family etc, ain't a good look either.
collective punishment? do you think the same about cigarette taxes or other taxes that are intended to have a prohibitive effect like taxing polluting cars more?
YOu do realise actually the distillers and brewers have been fiughting this for years now - why because they know it will reduce addiction to their cheap industrial muck and thus their profits.
I think the biggest change it will make is kids / youths who we all see sitting in parks drinking cheap cider. They could get drunk for £1-2 a head - now it will be £6 - 12. I think this will reduce drinking in this group greatly. Just recently I saw two girls under 14 swigging a 2l bottle white lightning. they would not be able to afford it now.
now they'll just go an half an eccy.
It was really just been the whisky companies that had been properly fighting was it not? That's what I remember.
Re the collective punishment thing, I put that up slightly tongue in cheek tbh, thought there was some interest in it though. Defining society by the lowest common denominator, is that really where we want to be?
half an eccy is far less damaging.;-). They will be hugging folk not shouting abuse and punching them
😆 true.
It seems to be a terribly thought out idea. This clearly affects the poorest in society who will now have to start stealing to fund their cider habit.
Or perhaps some of the drinkers may now buy one less bottle a week.
Scotland has a difficult relationship with alcohol - we drink too much. This has huge effect in children, the NHS, police and society. IMO, like the smoking ban, 'almost zero' drink driving changes, 5p bags etc, this move may just start changing society's reliance on alcohol and may just save some lives.
It was really just been the whisky companies that had been properly fighting was it not? That’s what I remember.
The alcohol that doesn't make the grade in distilling is used to make the high alcohol/cheap drinks, nowhere does it say you have you get it all from the yeast and apples etc.
Bang on Matt.
We've done that bit Mike, do keep up. 😉
Or perhaps some of the drinkers may now buy one less bottle a week.
You've not had much experience of the drink till you drop culture?I doubt 1 less can after 20 cans, 2 eccy and 3g of coke is going to have much health benefits! 😆
I also find it amusing that it's assumed it's just the poor that abuse cheap alcohol.
Lets look at this another way. Scotland has a serious issue with problem drinking. this has a huge cost to society both financial and in damaged people / societies.
Many of us feel that there needs to be steps taken by the government to try to change this
Minimum alcohol pricing is one method that has some validity its been researched and the research suggests it will help. Other steps are not within the power of the scottish government/ Personally I can think of nothing else the scots government can do
Do we simply let the current situation continue or do we try to do something about it?
Therefore to me its a sensible thing to try. Its not a panacea, there is a chance of unintended consequences hence it needs proper review which is built into the bill.
Jakies are still going to be jakies, doubt anyone thinks this pricing change will help them much. But it could very well reduce the overall numbers who enter the jakie club in the future as the cost of membership is too high. Those people might now go on to be productive and valuable members of society instead.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-48675313
Thread resurrection time as the effect of minimum pricing are being reported.
Fact* of the day
It’s estimated that in 1689 consumption per head reached over 100 gallons per head.
I believe that’s 800 pints 🍺 (?)
*ive no idea how they reached this estimate
Some other historical statistics here https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmhealth/151/151we16.htm
It's a start.
In 1689 the drinking water supplies would be "suspect" so folk drank various alcoholic drinks instead.
In 1986 some folk thought that drinking water supplies were “suspect” so drank various alcoholic drinks instead
🙂
In my defence,I was a Scot living in London at the time,so the water did taste "wrong"
It still tastes wrong to this day.
Too much “sediment” I guess
In 1689 the drinking water supplies would be “suspect” so folk drank various alcoholic drinks instead.
Indeed. Still the case on the Black Isle isn’t it? Or is that because Neil keeps ****ing in the reservoirs!?
Thread resurrection time as the effect of minimum pricing are being reported.
Interesting. Beer at a quid a can, whisky at £14/bottle, wine around a fiver... those aren't outrageous prices, basically they've just killed the tramp juice market stone dead.
It's also possible that there's been an understanding effect with some people of the whole conversation that took place around MAP that made them think just how much they're actually drinking, and they've taken stock of it?.
Dismaying article on Radio Scotia on tuesday morning too about Foetal alcohol syndrome, 4 times the amount of cases in the UK of this than autism, I was pretty amazed and saddened by this....
Minimal alcohol price? Yeah, cos raising the price of tobacco worked well didn't it. All those smokers who said "oh, this is silly, they're so expensive now, I'll just give up"
Yes, it has actually. Look at smokers numbers, the drop off has been quite incredible. I work in Engineering, I don't have anyone around me that smokes now, 20 years ago there would have been near enough half of the tradesman smoking. Between the cost and the smoking ban, it's gradually dying off.
raising the price of tobacco worked well didn’t it. All those smokers who said “oh, this is silly, they’re so expensive now, I’ll just give up”
Yep. Loads of smokers either quit or cut down.
Or took up one of those ridiculous cloud machines. If only you could replace beer with one of those vape things.
If only you could replace beer with one of those vape things.
Mmmmm desiccated beer.
If only you could replace beer with one of those vape things.
AF beer is pretty much vaping for alcies!
Wonder what the increase in cocaine sales was! 😆
Sadly I suspect those who would have got pissed on cheap cider now look to other ways of getting off their heads, now made relatively affordable in comparison.
I'm not sure that those who couldn't afford cider after the price rise turned to cocaine for their buzz.
Scots bought less alcohol in 2018 than any year since records began in the early 1990s, according to a new report.
Thats bought (I presume in Scotland) not drunk. Perhaps people are stocking up over the border, it's been suggest thats what'll happen in Wales if minimum pricing is brought in here.
Minimal alcohol price? Yeah, cos raising the price of tobacco worked well didn’t it. All those smokers who said “oh, this is silly, they’re so expensive now, I’ll just give up”
Unsure if you are being satirical, sarcastic or just unaware of what actually happened.
But yes, that’s exactly what happened.
Booze cruises to England? That seems unlikely - is the cheapo cider etc cheaper in England now? I honestly don't know!
Aye, yer average Jaikie can nip into his estate car in Shettleston and drive 90 miles doon the M74 for a cargo, nae borra!.
Ah, so there is an increase in drunk driving too?
🙄
snaps
Member
Get it up ye!
😆
When I come to Glasgow to work at Let's Ride should I leave the tools at home and fill the van with Frosty Jacks cider instead?
He reckons the 50 bottles, which cost just over £100, will last him a couple of months.
Craig, 29, said: "It was more of a 'get it up ye' to be honest. They can't take our alcohol off us.
Somehow I doubt Craig is going to see his 40th birthday...
Mental that you can't buy more than 2 packs of paracetamol in one go, but......
I bet the supermarkets just south of the border sell more than your average number of bottles of Frosty Jack & White lightning.
If you think it's only the lower classes and their jakey juice that drink too much, have a look around you, the middles classes are rife with functioning alcoholics. Granted, a few pence on their chablis may not put all of them off, but we've pretty much tried everything else.
It was bad enough when Special Brew was reduced to 8% from 9% NOW 7.5%
Killjoys or WHAT!
the middles classes are rife with functioning alcoholics. Granted, a few pence on their chablis may not put all of them off, but we’ve pretty much tried everything else.
Why try anything, how about letting adults decide how much they want to drink. Tax alchol for sure we need the revenue, but that aside let the market decide the price.
Why try anything, how about letting adults decide how much they want to drink. Tax alchol for sure we need the revenue, but that aside let the market decide the price.
For almost all alcoholic drinks, the market does decide the price.
There’s a floor to the market though, since some folk make poor decisions and some people are using evidence based policy to try to support them.
I have no problem with this.
It's the only downside for me, that the extra isn't a direct tax as such, to help fund the effects alcohol has on NHS, Emergency services, anti social costs, foetal alcohol syndrome support etc....
It’s the only downside for me, that the extra isn’t a direct tax as such, to help fund the effects alcohol has on NHS, Emergency services, anti social costs, foetal alcohol syndrome support etc….
Not possible under the current devolution settlement.
I know, but still disappointing. Once this blond phurkwit gets power, we can get the hell out of dodge and do it properly.
Supermarkets too cheap, pubs too expensive.
When I walk to the train station on garbage collection day I'm amazed at how much booze, especially wine, people are knocking back at home. Middle-class area.
But then I go into the local pub and am asked to pay £4.30 for a pint of Fosters and wonder why I bother in the first place.
£4.30 for a pint of Fosters
Mate...
Not sure the pub prices are particularly high tbh.
When I was 17/18 it was around 1.20 a pint of cooking lager, in similar pubs now it's around 3 quid, some 2.50.
It's 27 years since I was 17.