[Closed] Minimum alcohol price.

it will only affect a few very strong nasty chemical brews.  that won't be enough to drive a black market.  I think it will make a significant difference.  No longer will you be able to buy cheap rotgut "cider" at £1 for 2 litres.  It won't make the slightest difference to most of us.  Nothing I drink is below the minimum price

I've stocked up on festival multi-can packs of Carlsberg/Carling/Fosters/ Strongbow before the prices went up but generally it won't affect me either as I tend to have a few bottles of nice ale to do me the week which are well above the minimum.

I’m not sure this alone will work, but you’ve gotta start somewhere.

As someone who smoked through Uni and for a good few years after, the constantly increasing price was never really a factor in making me stop. I’m pretty sure that banning smoking in pubs and restaurants etc had a huge effect, as that really drives a change in behaviour.

Thus, upping the price on booze will start to raise awareness, cause at least a few questions before a purchase, but  I kinda hope its a step in a plan change behaviour around getting smashed. It won’t work on its own. See also sugar-tax.

Thoughts?

We'll need to wait and see like with any other public health intervention. A step in the right direction though I think.

"Thoughts?"

The supermarket profits in Carlisle will be sky high.

There's a sunset clause in the legislation which means it'll revert in 6 years unless MSPs vote to renew it based on the evidence.

The cheapest spirits will "leap" from around £12 per bottle to around £14. I can't see that difference being enough to sustain a black market.

The cheapest ciders rise from around £4 per bottle to around £12. That's a bigger difference but no one buying that stuff is doing so in large quantities and how much would you need to import from England to make it worthwhile?

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/991185238482149376?s=19

nice stereotypical pic from sky.

I always wear my kilt when pop down to the park for a swally

The cheapest ciders rise from around £4 per bottle to around £12. That’s a bigger difference but no one buying that stuff is doing so in large quantities

Some will drink around 3 Bottles a day of that horrible stuff to get through their addiction.

There is already a thriving black market for cheap and nasty counterfeit booze, just like there is for cigarettes. The minimum pricing is worth a try, if nothing else it's another message to people that as a country our attitude to alcohol is warped and needs addressing.

I ****ing hate all this government intervention shit. A can of coke cost me a quid the other day in Greggs, why, sugar tax bolkox, people will carry on doing what they were doing but as usual Mr normal is the one who pays the prce.

Aye, but when Mr Normal gets ill he expects the NHS to make him better. Cut out smoking, reduce alcohol and obesity and you've hit the 3 major causes of the NHS being under such financial pressure.

Alcohol was expensive when I was a lad (relative to our wages), and it seems much cheaper now.

Kids rarely had enough money to get drunk whereas it seems to be a common thing for quite young kids to get blitzed these days.

If it reduces the instances of that, good. However I think it's sticking plaster legislation, although well intentioned.

I hope it works.

The university study showed that over time there are positive effects, including many saved lives. It's not designed to save rampant alcoholics like Dracs example, but as Spin rightly says, we have to start somewhere.

Edit - and what Scotroutes says x 100

Quite. If this affects you then you are probably one of then people the legislation is aimed at!

Whilst I'm not disputing the health benefits of not smoking, drinking less and losing weight, the NHS is at breaking point because of years of the Tory 'Austerity' project and subsequent underfunding. Plain and simple. Underfund it, declare a crisis, privatise it. That's their agenda, swathes of it have already been flogged to Virgin.

Edit- more importantly, how do we stop drunken Scots from boozing it up on the cheap in the rest of the UK? Perhaps this legislation doesn't go far enough?

Edit- more importantly, how do we stop drunken Scots from boozing it up on the cheap in the rest of the UK? Perhaps this legislation doesn’t go far enough?

I'd never considered booze cruises from Scotland.   Border patrols on Hadrians wall?

I’d never considered booze cruises from Scotland.   Border patrols on Hadrians wall?

Errrrr!

Border patrols on Hadrians wall?

Yet more southern ignorance, bless....

swathes of it have already been flogged to Virgin.

OK while I work in the health industry, and Tbh some of the private health care companies are pretty bad (as are some Trusts  CCGs, and GPS) that up there is bolloxs

Your bottle of Peroni will go up in price, as will all the premium brands (wine/ales/lager) - they need to keep their price differencial between the cheap stuff and the expensive stuff!

that up there is bolloxs

Er . . . no it's not

But that's an argument for a different thread.

when this was first mooted by Salmond, in Mar 09, I put this together

6 yrs ago the rate of 40p was being suggested.

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/minimum-alcohol-pricing-and-units/page/2/

I need to have another go at it to see whether duty and inflation increases have naturally brought more products above the min pricing line

I was paying 5.50/pint for Peroni last night in Notts arena. It really really doesn't want to get anymore expensive 😢

Border patrols on Hadrians wall?

I'm sure those north of the wall would like to be scottish 🙂

There’s plenty of evidence for any “desirable” object to degenerate into black market conditions promoting crime and illegality where the law restricts it, particularly in a poor social environment.

Kinda agree, but then alcohol is easy to make so why not.

But it does kinda plaster over the cracks, across the borders you’ll still be able to stock up on cheap alcohol which makes a mockery of the law.

But then it is Scotland and they proclaim to be different, so let’s sit back and watch this social experiment falter or barely make any difference.

I live in place where cheap alcohol is a similar price to fruit juice and consumption is falling. The quality of what's drunk is also rising. Average consumption in France  is now about the same at the UK but was three times higher in my youth.

If you look at the places alcohol consumption is rising they are also the places where it's expensive. Look at the places its cheap and consumption is stagnant or falling. If I were a UK brewer I'd be lobbying for higher alcohol prices because people will find the money for what they see as an expensive desirable premium product. It's not the price that's the problem, it's the attitude to drink.

Check out the OECD stats. It's Scandinavia where prices are punitive and the UK where prices are high that consumption is rising fastest.

But then it is Scotland and they proclaim to be different, so let’s sit back and watch this social experiment falter or barely make any difference.

What, like we did with the smoking ban?....

What, like we did with the smoking ban?….

Smuggling pubs over the border was a bit tricky.

Bodgy, the really big problems the nhs faces have long predated the Tory government.  NHS Scotland is a devolved body, with apparently better funding per capita than NHS England because the Scottish Government chose to invest there - if still faces the big issues listed (and an aging population). The putative privitisation agenda with the involvement of Virgin does not apply in Scotland.  Other than that yip it’s all their fault.

True Drac!

Check out the OECD stats. It’s Scandinavia where prices are punitive and the UK where prices are high that consumption is rising fastest.

Correlation does not equal causation.

You’d think the drinks industry would see it as a positive but the biggest opponent we’re the Scottish Whisky Producers (most probably because their distilleries also make the industrial alcohol that goes into making “white” ciders - that sell for less than Coca Cola).  Although it is not a tax - so they should make more unless the policy is effective.  Their very vocal opposition tells me they believe it will significantly reduce volume not just displace it to Cumbria or let them charge more for the same volume.

A can of coke cost me a quid the other day in Greggs, why, sugar tax bolkox,

Was Diet Coke significantly cheaper, then?

most probably because their distilleries also make the industrial alcohol that goes into making “white” ciders

Not 'most probably' at all, it's their sole reason for all their whining.

But it does kinda plaster over the cracks, across the borders you’ll still be able to stock up on cheap alcohol which makes a mockery of the law.

The geography is such that the vast majority of Scots live >2h drive from the border.  Many of those “most affected” by the change won’t have a car, or won’t have the spare cash for fuel and bulk purchases.  The economics won’t make it worthwhile for those marginally affected if the live North of Dumfries.

There could be an “opportunity” for white van man to load up with cheap cider and flog it illicitly, but it’s a lot of work for little gain - anyone who doesn’t care too much about the law could easily make more selling drugs.

Alcohol was expensive when I was a lad (relative to our wages), and it seems much cheaper now.

Not in my experience. When I was 18 I was earning £5 an hour and a pint was not much more than £1

Nowadays the minimum wage is £7-ish and a pint is £4+

The kids don't drink nowadays because they can't afford to

Not ‘most probably’ at all, it’s their sole reason for all their whining.

I was giving them them the benefit of the doubt that they were unhappy about the price of Aldi Grain Whisky going up by about a quid too!  Or maybe the point about it pushing up premium brands to differentiate would have an effect on the mainstream.

eitherway I’ve no great sympathy for an industry who object to a policy because they expect it to work and save lives.

Nowadays the minimum wage is £7-ish and a pint is £4+

erm...I don't think it's pub prices which are the issue here...Quick look at Tesco online and the first item in the beer and cider section is  https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/300256958 - 18 cans of strongbow for £10....

I was paying 5.50/pint for Peroni last night in Notts arena. It really really doesn’t want to get anymore expensive

no sympathy for someone paying £5.50 for a pint or for drinking peroni.

Not in my experience. When I was 18 I was earning £5 an hour and a pint was not much more than £1

Nowadays the minimum wage is £7-ish and a pint is £4+

How much was minimum wage when you were 18?

You can but alcohol for less than £4 a pint in many pubs let alone supermarkets.

Not in my experience. When I was 18 I was earning £5 an hour and a pint was not much more than £1

Nowadays the minimum wage is £7-ish and a pint is £4+

That's not really a fair comparison, when a pint was a quid a whip, (was £1.38 in my local when I started drinking, circa 1995/6ish, last I seen a £1 a pint was probably some promotion around 1999 in a pub in the town.) there wasn't even a minimum wage. Would have been lots of people on much less that £5 an hour, particularly at 18 yo.

I think I started on about £3.50 an hour back then.

As an 18 year old in 1993, we were usually a fiver for 10 beers, cheap shite like Miller etc, pretty much hasn't gone up in price from this in supermarkets.

tjagain

it will only affect a few very strong nasty chemical brews.  that won’t be enough to drive a black market.

so a van load of tennents say:

5 cases wide, 7 cases long, and 8 cases high. (**** knows pure guessing!)

= 280 cases.

£14 a whip south of the border.

£23 up here, so punt them at £19.

5 x 280 = £1400 minus petrol.

no a bad wee earner!

bikebouy said,

"But then it is Scotland and they proclaim to be different, so let’s sit back and watch this social experiment falter or barely make any difference."

Pretty much word for word what people said about the smoking ban, and about carrier bag charging... The BMJ says "price-based alcohol policy interventions such as MUP are likely to reduce alcohol consumption, alcohol-related morbidity and mortality" which sounds like a good start

So what will happen if you get the train from Edinburgh to London, will the drink have 2 prices, pre and post border?

I can't provide a source (hey, it's the STW way!) but I'm sure I read among the young alcohol consumption is falling. So perhsps education is playing a part too (and the availability of other substances).

andy4d

"So what will happen if you get the train from Edinburgh to London, will the drink have 2 prices, pre and post border?"

What alcohol can you buy on the train that's under the minimum price?

This will only really affect the price of cheap strong cider such as Frosty Jack. Who drinks that stuff? People with nothing. People who live on the street. People who drink to numb reality. Petty crime will increase as those people now need more money for their fix. People paying £5 for their pint of Peroni need  to realise how blessed their lives are compared to some.

Good point northwind....i did not think it through before posting 😀

You can but alcohol for less than £4 a pint in many pubs let alone supermarkets.

Maybe, but probably not in any pub I’d want to drink in, around here, North Wilts, £4/pint is about average, it‘s what I pay for a 3.8-4.0 abv ale. 😕

I don't live in Scotland but am in favour. Both Scotroutes and Northwind ^^^ make good points.

In general I don't like 'nanny state' interventions/interference but this policy is good news - except for those with alcohol addiction and limited financial resources as they are reliant on cheap strong booze.

I have seen the effects of white lightning and the other 'industrial alcohol' brands on the homeless and rough sleepers through my voluntary work; it's not pretty.

Expect Westminster to follow with legislation for England - eventually; why, for once, can they not lead instead of always following?

As for Wrightyson paying £5+ for a pint at a 'venue' - captive audience; you go knowing booze will be overpriced and not the best quality so you either pay the asking price for the razz they're selling or go dry.

I don't think MUP can work on its own but as part of a wider strategy it can work.  The real problem will be in addressing what it is about life in Scotland that makes people drink approximately 17% more than other parts of the UK and in doing so to significantly damage their own health and to damage their children's/ partners health and opportunities.

I really hope this gets support from the other parties too

I can remember when a bottle of spirits was for special occasions, and you had to go to a special shop for it, not just bung it in the basket as part of the weekly shop.

I think that was a better way, you could still get hammered, but you had to put a bit of effort in rather than it just being the default.

As a young piss head I would not have been in favour of this at all. As a slightly older person who can now see the mess some people get into I can see some benefit. People will turn to a different drug to get their fix but you can only start to make to make things better if you actually start rather than talk.

i am against the nanny state but as everyone seems to be destroying themselves with food and booze the sensible people have to suffer for the greater good...

actually if they could make processed food and confectionary more expensive or unavailable so I can't get at it that would probably be the only thing to stop me munching down on it...

cornholio98

...the sensible people have to suffer for the greater good…

The sensible people aren't drinking the rotgut affected by this measure.

It's a minimum price point and the decent stuff already costs more, so it's only the cheap fighting juice that will rise in price, not what sensible people drink.

But then it is Scotland and they proclaim to be different, so let’s sit back and watch this social experiment falter or barely make any difference.”

Pretty much word for word what people said about the smoking ban, and about carrier bag charging… The BMJ says “price-based alcohol policy interventions such as MUP are likely to reduce alcohol consumption, alcohol-related morbidity and mortality” which sounds like a good start

I dont remeber anyone say anything of the sort.

The smoking ban was widely accepted as both a way to remove passive smoking from internal environments and also deter smokers from chain smoking. So your statement is way off.

Also the bag charging was widely accepted as a way of reducing plastic waste and most people accepted that, then bought “bags for life” or reusable bags and hardly anyone moaned or complained, in fact it has been widely accepted as success.

So we’ve had 24hrs of the pricing, anyone see any difference yet? Or trucks full of booze heading over the borders..

Expect Westminster to follow with legislation for England – eventually; why, for once, can they not lead instead of always following?

I thought Cameron had already said they were going to do the same? Presumably Teressa has been too busy worrying about the EU to deal with the health of her citizens or wanted Scotland to bear the costs of the ECJ/Supreme Court cases first (perhaps it didn't play into her anti ECJ mantra for them to agree with a domestic policy)?  The clever thing is they now let Scotland be a voluntary leader rather than imposing experiments like the Poll Tax on us!

The smoking ban was widely accepted

Not by smokers or publicans. I can remember the hype and hysteria in the run up to the ban kicking in. Every pub was going to close, all the smokers were going to defy the ban etc. TV news interviewing people in pubs. I can remember a lot of moaning from people that clubs now smelled of farts and sweat and that the smoke had previously masked those smells!

There was a lot of resistance to it up here in Scotland before it kicked in.

"The sensible people aren’t drinking the rotgut affected by this measure."

But it isn't just rotgut affected. For whisky Bells, Grouse, etc are up to £14 for a 70cl bottle. Not everyone can afford to drink single malts all the time. Drinkable supermarket grain/malt blends are up as well.   Aldi own brand gin is pretty good. 1L bottle up from £14 to somewhere around £19.

Doesn't matter though as only the proles drink standard spirits?

Personally I  more often than not buy premium beer and whisky and I wouldn't miss an extra few quid anyway. Not everyone is lucky enough not to have to budget very carefully for day to day spending.

But it isn’t just rotgut affected. For whisky Bells, Grouse, etc are up

🤔

Aldi own brand gin is pretty good. 1L bottle up from £14 to somewhere around £19.

£17.51 actually. If they raise the price to more than that then it's their profits they're protecting, not your health.

not what sensible people drink.

Man you lot don't half have yer heids up yer arse! 😆

Must be nice up in those ivory towers.

😂😂😂

1978.  beer 30p / pint   Auxilliary nurse £1 an hour so 20 mins to earn enough for my pint.

Now  beer £4.50 a pint, Auxilliary nurse £8 an hour  35 mins to earn enough for a pint

That may be a reflection more on poor pay rises for aux nurses rather than alcohol being more expensive.

So what will happen if you get the train from Edinburgh to London, will the drink have 2 prices, pre and post border?

No, because trains don't sell the chemical cider so the drinks won't be effected by the new pricing.

That includes Edinburgh tax though TJ, 3 quid a pint in rest of country for cooking lager, so not far off 20 mins a beer.

the 30p pint was in milngavie.  Dunno if it was a cheap or expensive pub for those days tho.

1989 about £1 a pint for generic shit average hourly rate was around £6 per hour so about 10 mins work

2018 about £3.50 a pint here for generic shit but can be more or less, average hourly rate is around £14 per hour so about 15 mins work.

Not a big difference for pub prices but it’s not about pub prices. I seen 24 can of Carling on offer the other day for £8 which is pretty mad. Might load up the car and head into the borders.

Not a big difference for pub prices but it’s not about pub prices. I seen 24 can of Carling on offer the other day for £8 which is pretty mad. Might load up the car and head into the borders.

Don't drink and drive, kids.

Tennents is the biggest selling beer in the country.
20 cans of Tennent’s 440 ml lager at 4% abv were £10 in supermarkets - new minimum price £17.60

That's pretty significant.

The guys at Tennents told me they were looking at moving to 330ml cans and smaller pack sizes as people have a sort of mental upper limit for how much they'll pay for a slab of beer

Cooncil lager! Mate of mine does their PSSR inspections at their brewery in Glasgow, reckons it's minging.

Back to the smoking ban..

Of all the people in my office (at the time, about 60 odd) none proclaimed Pubs would shut, nor thought anything other than “thank god, I hate the smell of smoke”

Clearly you must have lived in a completely different environment than me.

Clearly

comparing beer prices from 1978 you need to allow for change in duty since then too.

in 1978 it was 7.5p per pint.

in 2018 it is c.49p per pint (assuming 4.5% ABV)

That is a 4.8% pa average increase in duty, but over the same period inflation grew at 4.42% pa.

The difference over 40yrs amounts to a relative divergence of c. 16%, i.e. 16% of the change in price of a pint is down to duty change not price changes.

Tennents is the biggest selling beer in the country.

What a sad fact.

The guys at Tennents told me they were looking at moving to 330ml cans and smaller pack sizes as people have a sort of mental upper limit for how much they’ll pay for a slab of beer

Tennents is the biggest selling beer in the country.

What a sad fact.

Yeah, second that.

How come? Can’t be the lighter fuel they sell as beer can it? Perhaps the brand Tennants owns lots of other “branded” sugar liquids..

Bikebuoy, believe it or not, Bob is bang on about attitudes to the smoking ban, seems crazy now but at the time there was no end of wailing from pub goers, landlords and even bar staff , that it would kill pub trade, smokers were being get treated like lepers, drinkers would drink at home and smoke in front of their kids instead.... all sorts of shite talk.

Same as the moaning that still goes on from drinkers about the lower driving limit. Some folk need protecting from themselves.

Aye huge amount of fuss about the smoking ban with loads of dire predictions.  It did damage the pub trade a bit but all the talk of protests and civil disobedience simply didn't happen - load of hot air

Lighter fuel? It's 4% and pretty piss like. And its popularity is down to the power of the owners, C&C group, over the pub trade. That and a general lack of taste shown by yer average lager drinker.