HIs point is that those rules apply to everyone and these rules apply to a specific race/grouping hence they are irrelevant to this discussion;
they are different as they dont just apply to say white males etc,
Suppose that Germany established refugee camps/centres in Turkey or Lebanon or somewhere, and made it a condition that refugees had to pass some sort of test to show that they understood, accepted and observed German customs with regard to gender equality etc. before they were allowed to continue their onward journey to Germany. Would that be "racist", discriminatory?
And if not, what is the difference that these centres are physically located in Germany. And the only part of their onward journey that is restricted is the one to the swimming pool?
Thank you, Junkyard. The rules I point out are relevant because they apply to easily identifiable groups with a particular group ethic that is viewed as anti-social. Bikers get banned, rugby players get banned, football supporters get banned, neo-Nazis get banned... all easily identifiable groups of males. In this case it's a group of immigrants.
One biker turns up at a campsite, no problem. Twenty turn up, cause trouble and bikers get banned from that campsite. I regularly stay at a campsite where groups of young males are turned away. One group tried a court case having being evicted for drunken anti-social behaviour. The owner won and is now even stricter not letting groups of young males on at all.
Thank you, Junkyard. The rules I point out are relevant because they apply to easily identifiable groups with a particular group ethic that is viewed as anti-social. Bikers get banned, rugby players get banned, football supporters get banned, neo-Nazis get banned... all easily identifiable groups of males. In this case it's a group of immigrants.
None of those groups are specifically excluded. You are talking about dress codes!
They just have to dress accordingly.
You wouldn't be allowed into the Vatican wearing speedos.
That doesn't mean the Pope hates swimmers.
Can you honestly not see the difference.
nealglover - MemberThat doesn't mean the Pope hates swimmers.
The pope loves swimmers! If a sperm is wasted, god gets quite irate.
The issue is that race is a protected category, you can say "no Man U fans" or "shoes and shirt must be worn" but you can't just say "no blacks, no irish". At least not in this country, and not in any other that adheres to european law or the CERD principles.
(and don't bother getting all pedantic about the definition of "race", it's all clear enough in the law and it's application)
Having lived as a visible minority in a country where the CERD is not enshrined in law, it's an uncomfortable existence I can tell you.
jambalaya - Member
Actually Merkel didn't invite 1m refugess, she invited everyone from Syria who arrrived in Germany legally. Its just the last part which not surprisingly is being ignored. When she did it I immediately called her an idiot on the forum. See my post above, quote from the ethically Moroccan German - the government has lost control which is no surprise at all.
In the far east old women say Merkel is stooopid to make such an announcement to welcome strangers en mass.
They do not have to be politicians to understand the consequences of human nature.
Yes bikers look different to refugees. Both can cause trouble when they arrive en masse in sensitive places. Not every biker is a thug, not every migrant is a sex-fiend. If migrants didn't descend on places in large groups and then cause trouble there wouldn't be an issue.
On the reception of a swimming pool it's easy to spot potential trouble whether it be bikers or immigrants. Although migrants are banned from that pool if one migrant turned up they would have no trouble getting in. Just as one biker will have no trouble getting on a campsite. It's not the fact they are migrants that's got them banned, it's arriving as a group and not respecting the other users of the pool.
I'm sure the mayor will find a solution, the short term one is a blanket ban, I'm confident something fairer will be found.
Not every cyclist is a scofflaw and hooligan, if cyclists didn't ride in groups there wouldn't be an issue. The best short-term solution is to ban cyclists. I'm confident something fairer will be found eventually.
People need to get a grip here. From the article no one is saying that black people are banned from the swimming pool, or brown people, or any colour of people. They are saying that a specific group of males from the nearby asylum shelter are banned.
None of those groups are specifically excluded. You are talking about dress codes!They just have to dress accordingly.
You wouldn't be allowed into the Vatican wearing speedos.
That doesn't mean the Pope hates swimmers.
Can you honestly not see the difference.
All they are saying here is that the group of males from the nearby asylum shelter just have to behave accordingly and they will be let back in. That doesn't mean the swimming pool hates asylum seekers. Just that there is a behavior policy for entry.
Thecaptain: The pool ban is not based on race. Non-migrant members of the same ethnic/racial groups and origins as the migrants are not banned.
thecaptain - Member
Not every cyclist is a scofflaw and hooligan, ...
However, the amount of cyclists playing Russian roulette with cars are plentiful. No lights, dark clothing or with soft light due to low battery etc or awareness of drivers/cars ... we are lucky we do not see them under the car tires everyday.
The number of cyclists in the toon ... crikey ... no one scores full 10 points yet ... which means car drivers must be very aware of cyclists around them.
Not every cyclist is a scofflaw and hooligan, if cyclists didn't ride in groups there wouldn't be an issue. The best short-term solution is to ban cyclists. I'm confident something fairer will be found eventually.
More like if there was a particular nearby cycling club who's members kept harassing all the other cyclists from all the other different clubs when they all got together. As a short term solution, that cycling club was banned from future get togethers until some official explained to their members what the rules and code of conduct of meeting up was.
Cyclists are banned from riding in large groups in France, thecaptain. A group beyond a certain size (from memory 20 riders) is considered a danger to itself and other road users. A local club has been reminded of the fact by the local police and now splits its ride into groupettos.
They are saying that a specific group of males from the nearby asylum shelter are banned.
So we pick a people from a country and we ban them and then we need to explain to some of you why its racist.Non-migrant members of the same ethnic/racial groups and origins as the migrants are not banned.
This place 😆
Although migrants are banned from that pool if one migrant turned up they would have no trouble getting in.
Nice guesswork.
I've not read anything to suggest that's correct. Have you ?
All they are saying here is that the group of males from the nearby asylum shelter just have to behave accordingly and they will be let back in. That doesn't mean the swimming pool hates asylum seekers. Just that there is a behavior policy for entry.
No. There is a "no immigrants" policy for entry.
A behaviour policy would allow entry for everyone regardless of where they were from.
That's not what they currently have.
Nationality is not the same as race, Junkyard. If I discriminate against you because you're English in France it's not considered racist. It's xenophobic and nationalist but does not carry the same penalty as if I insulted you because of your skin colour irrespective of where you come from.
Junkyard - lazarus
So we pick a people from a country and we ban them and then we need to explain to some of you why its racist.This place
Yes. If they are causing trouble regardless of who they are.
You can debate about race issue later on but in the meantime ban!
What's the big deal?
So we pick a people from a country and we ban them and then we need to explain to some of you why its racist.
Well, you could say that ALL of the refugees have lived their lives in a culture with values that we do not want to import into our society, and that the onus is on them to demonstrate that they can assimilate.
It's pretty amazing the contortions to which some posters will go to either pretend that this is not a racist policy, or that it is justified despite being racist. It is obviously and blatantly contrary to both CERD and EU law (which I assume are enshrined in German law, though I don't know the details of that).
Where do you live, Neal? I'm not trying to stalk, just intrigued as to which part of the planet you can live on and think that a group of misogynistic, aggressive, insulting males should not be banned from a swimming pool until measures can be taken to make sure female swimmers won't be harassed.
Edit: I'm a regular swimmer, I've swum three times this week which is typical. I swim and have swum in pools with a typically French demographic for over a quarter of a century. I know which groups cause trouble, the life guards know the groups who cause trouble, the CRS who get sent know which groups cause trouble, the women know which groups cause trouble. Solutions have been found and without any ban base on race, creed coulour or whatever peace know reigns. In fact there are no bans at all apart from surf shorts, just a lot of video cameras.
Edukator, your comments above regarding race vs nationality are wrong. End of story. The law is not what you think it is.
For your education:
Article 1 of the Convention defines "racial discrimination" as:
...any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life...
Note how "race" is defined here in a broad but reasonable way so as to avoid the typically pedantic nitpickings of people such as yourself.
thecaptain - MemberIt's pretty amazing the contortions to which some posters will go to either pretend that this is not a racist policy, or that it is justified despite being racist. It is obviously and blatantly contrary to both CERD and EU law (which I assume are enshrined in German law, though I don't know the details of that).
Very simple. If the society does not like particular people why still go there?
edit: Saudi Arabia? Anyone? Care to explain to them?
So what would be the correct way to deal with this problem?
For the hand wringers on here, do you honestly believe, that the mass uncontrolled migration of thousands of young men, from a culture that teaches completely different things about the status and role of women, particularly what sort of woman would attend a mixed swimming pool, that there isn't going to be any problems?
Article 1 of the Convention defines "racial discrimination" as:...any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life...
How does that apply to immigration policy? Is it "racial discrimination" to restrict immigration from certain countries?
The correct way is to ban and/or otherwise punish the offenders, and a bit of public education might help too. Isn't this blindingly obvious?
I should have said "insulted" in both parts, the captain.
DrJ, there is no right to enter or live in a country of your choice, so there is no breach of CERD in applying a nationality condition to restrict this.
thecaptain - Member
The correct way is to ban and/or otherwise punish the offenders, and a bit of public education might help too. Isn't this blindingly obvious?
The correct way is Not even starting the Merkel stooopid open door welcome policy.
Too late ... they are screwed!
And if there if discrimination based on nationality is illegal I can take a few banks to court. Thank you HSBC for not discriminating on the basis of nationality.
Or the French/British governments, because they both apply fixed radar fines to their own nationals but not those from the other country. Or... there are so many institutionalised examples of discrimation based on country of origin even within the EU. You'll pay 50 cents more than me to get in my local swimming pool BTW.
The correct way is to ban and/or otherwise punish the offenders, and a bit of public education might help too. Isn't this blindingly obvious?
Which is what they have done/are doing.
Maybe the Germans have a more proportionate and realistic view of the type of discrimination that the CERD was designed to avoid.
There may be a historic reason why they are able retain a sense of proportion about what 'discrimination' amounts to
If I discriminate against you because you're English in France it's not considered racist. It's xenophobic and nationalist but does not carry the same penalty as if I insulted you because of your skin colour irrespective of where you come from
Then they are wrong - if this is true- as has been shown by another poster. .
FWIW I am not english.
I hate all french people they are all worthless scum
I dont employ anyone Irish
Do i really need to explain why these are racist? Honestly?
a bit of public education might help too.
So you tell them that their fathers, Imans and teachers who have taught them women are inferior to men, that if a women cannot dress modestly and causes lustful feelings in men, they get what they deserve, are wrong and that's not quite how we do it in 21st Century Europe?
That will work. 🙄
Gotta say after the way a bunch of Immigrants leered and commented about my wife, with me present (10 against me) I'd cheerfully boil the scum in acid.
If your of fighting age with no family to protect why aren't you home trying to fight for your country?
Junkyard - lazarus
Then they are wrong - if this is true- as has been shown by another poster. .[b]FWIW I am not english.[/b]
You're not? Really? [b]So what are you?[/b] Be brave. 😆
Everyone knows who I am now your turn.
I hate all french people they are all worthless scum
I dont employ anyone Irish
Do i really need to explain why these are racist? Honestly?
Crikey ... are those your true feelings?
Explain yourself.
Ming the Merciless - Member
If your of fighting age with no family to protect why aren't you home trying to fight for your country?
That's exactly my sentiment ...
Yes, you do Junkyard. Especially to communities who suffer and get shot at because of the colour of their skin. If I report you to the Gendarmes for calling me "worthless French scum" on TV they'll tell me it's insult, and they're not interested. If you were black and called me "worthless white scum" on TV, they'd take my complaint very seriously (I hope).
[img] 
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Replace the word "French" with "black/white/jewish/arab" and it becomes racist. As it is it's just nationalist.
Where do you live, Neal? I'm not trying to stalk, just intrigued as to which part of the planet you can live on and think that a group of misogynistic, aggressive, insulting males should not be banned from a swimming pool until measures can be taken to make sure female swimmers won't be harassed.
Where I live is irrelevant, I've lived in few places around Europe over the last 25 years though.
And the rest of your question is disingenuous, I'm [b]not[/b] saying that "misogynistic, aggressive, insulting males" shouldn't be banned. (As I'm sure you are aware)
I'm saying that a blanket ban on an entire group based on their ethnicity is wrong.
And I'm honestly astounded that I'll probably have to defend that idea against someone who thinks that I'm wrong.
Ffs its 2016 not 1930 🙄
I'm saying that a blanket ban on an entire group based on their ethnicity is wrong.
It's not actually their ethnicity that is banned but their residency status. As all Germans have ID cards this something that is easily checked.
It's not based on their ethnicity. Ethnic Syrians, Turks, Moroccans, Algerians, Afghans etc. who don't belong to migrant groups are not banned.
If The only way you can defend it is petty Semantics then you are abviously struggling and it's clearly wrong 🙄
Told you Angela Merkel is stooopid ...
See before her open door policy there was not even such discussion but now they need to deal so many problems.
If that's not stooopid what is? 😆
What 😯 I have to explain why discrimination based on the nationality of someone is racist. I dont have the words as I am dumbstruck you wish to argue the point.Yes, you do Junkyard.
petty Semantics
It is not petty semantics. There does not appear to be a major problem with established communities but the recent arrival of thousands of young men who are seeking asylum.
To confuse this with racism is dangerous.
Not one of the hand wringers has suggested a viable solution for this.
petty Semantics
Read back Neal, paying particular attention to your own contributions to this thread.
Is being stooopid better or worse than being a zombie maggot?
Junkyard - lazarus
FWIW I am not english.
Hey Junkyard so what are you? 😛
zippykona - Member
Is being stooopid better or worse than being a zombie maggot?
That depends greatly on your philosophy.
[b]
Is she drone like? (dictated by programmed instructions)
Is she zombie maggot? (contaminated brain juice - virus like)
Is she stooopid? (own will to be programmed and to have contaminated brain juice)[/b]
That is the question. 😆
Look carefully at the definitions you will see that ...
@Edukator, yes well aware of the issue with "Roma" and travellers in French towns. As we are in Paris we see many shanty tiwns / dwellings around the Periph. My French in-laws always say how lucky UK is to be an Island.
For those arguing that the pool ban is racist just remember it applies to men only. Immigrant women and children are still welcome. Also,it is a ban on immigtants / asylum seekers independent of their nationaility
As we are on this thread rather the others two other interetsing stories today;
German Finance Minister has suggested all EU countries (potentially including the Uk) should raise fuel duty to pay for improved border security.
Of 5,500 failed asylum seekers from Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco who should have been deported from Germnay in the first 6 months of 2015 only 56 have left. Partly I understand as their host countries don't want them back I assume as they came from Syria
Come now Junkyard, Great Britain discriminates on the basis of nationality every day. I can enter the UK because I have a French ID card, but all of those people in the jungle in Calais are stuck in the jungle because they don't have nationalities that allow them automatic entry into the UK. That's not racism.
Not one of the hand wringers has suggested a viable solution for this.
Ban/punish people who break rules/laws.
Leave people alone that don't.
Treat people as individuals they are not "all the same"
(And if you find yourself saying that about people, It's fairly possible you are some type of bigot)
Read back Neal, paying particular attention to your own contributions to this thread.
If you have a point to make, make it.
For those arguing that the pool ban is racist just remember it applies to men only
What is your point here?
is it if you are sexist at the same time as being racist then you wont really be being either?
I'm saying that a blanket ban on an entire group based on their ethnicity is wrong.
Would a blanket ban based on sex be wrong?
I can think of plenty of places that have women only pool/gym sessions, it's happened for along time, and is clearly not viewed to be sexist (except maybe by some nutters, but I am fairly sure that courts have upheld it)
Is banning a small segment of the community based on the behaviour of a notable minority amongst it and the impact it has on female participation and wellbeing any worse than banning an entire sex based on much the same thing?
@neal, we are not suggesting the pool ban is the medium term solution but the mayor of thentown / pool manager was ina real bind as what to do NOW.
There is huge fristration at a local and regional level in Germany as towns and cities have to manage the fall out from Merkels idiotic and poorly thought out statement. Another German mayor sent a bus load of immigrants (who agreed to go) to Berlin for Merkel to deal with as they had roommfor no more.
chewkw - Member
Junkyard - lazarus
FWIW I am not english.
Hey Junkyard so what are you?
You have not answered my question.
Over to you! 😛
is it if you are sexist at the same time as being racist then you wont really be being either?
No.
It's fairly possible you are some type of bigot
We are all prejudice in one way or another. It's just a matter of scale.
A bit like Autism.
If thinking that the majority of those young men from North African Muslim countries will have bigoted views on women and their role and status, makes me a bigot. Then I must be a bigot.
I'd call you a realist, gobuchul. From my "enlightened", "humanist", "secular" background and having read too much by Vian, Sartre, Camus and de Beauvoir.
Edukator - TrollI'd call you a realist, gobuchul. From my "enlightened", "humanist", "secular" background and having read too much by, Vian, Satre, Camus and de Beavoir.
Me! Me! Me! Please! How about me?
What would you call me? Seriously. 
Junkyard - lazarus
FWIW I am not english.
[b]In the meantime ... [u]Junkyard[/u] you have not answered my question yet ... What are you?[/b] 😈
Three North African immigrants arrested for stoning in Dortmund:
A bit like Autism
It's not even a tiny bit like Autism.
Sometimes I'd love to be able to take some STW members for a guided tour of some places in France and Germany, with their wife/sister/mother/daughter dressed in their holiday best being sent out 100m in front. North Africa too.
On that happy thought, goodnight all.
It's not even a tiny bit like Autism.
The traits of being prejudice and the traits of Autism are completely different.
However all of those "score" somewhere on the Autism scale.
In the same way we are all bigots just to a different extent.
Being prejudice doesn't always mean you are always wrong.
e.g. I am currently working in Houston, Tx, I tend to think that the majority of the 'mericans that I work with will all carry guns, vote right wing, drive pick ups, hate hybrid cars and frequently make casually racist remarks. I wouldn't be right 100% of the time to the description probably fits a good 75%.
I walked around a village market in SW France with a black friend while we were on holidays. It was great fun looking at the photos of geese being force-fed through funnels in an effort to persuade us to buy foie-gras. What was slightly more disconcerting was the blatantly hostile stares to which my friend and I were subjected (don't know what I'd done - maybe just consorting with a black person was enough). To be fair, he took it in his stride - he'd grown up in Hackney being stopped and searched through most of his teenage life. Large swathes of the country are pretty openly racist - it's no wonder the FN does so well there. If I wanted to live a more openly racist life, and to be honest, there are times when I'd like to, because this country is just PC gone mad these days, I'd improve my conversational French and move there.
In the same way we are all bigots just to a different extent.
Yes, of course. Only, I know plenty of people who aren't. I'm sure they're the only ones though. So apart from them, yes, everybody is a bigot. Apart from the ones I know who aren't. I guess they're the only ones.
It's the kind of statement bigots make when they need to justify bigotry. Is that your intent?
It's the kind of statement bigots make when they need to justify bigotry. Is that your intent?
I have already admitted I'm bigoted.
We all are.
Are you saying you never prejudge people? We all do. It's an animal instinct. It was necessary for survival.
Have you defied evolution?
We all are.
When I'm a little unsure of myself, I find that repeating the same thing over and over again restores my self-belief.
Sometimes I'd love to be able to take some STW members for a guided tour of some places in France and Germany, with their wife/sister/mother/daughter dressed in their holiday best being sent out 100m in front. North Africa too.
You do realise you aren't the only person from England to have made it across the Channel don't you 🙄
You live in France I believe (pretty sure you've mentioned that a few thousand times) and As I mentioned earlier I've lived all over Europe, and have spent a bit of time in North Africa.
Oddly enough, my experience hasn't left unable to differentiate between bigotry and "realism"
Ymmv.
When I'm a little unsure of myself, I find that repeating the same thing over and over again restores my self-belief.
So you don't prejudge ANYONE? That is very strange behaviour. I am not even sure how that would work in real life.
I wrote earlier that I think that the majority of the young men from the North African Islamic countries, who are in the refugee centre, in the news item about the swimming pool ban, would hold certain views about the role and status of women, particularly ones who dressed and behaved in a certain way.
I worked with a lot of ****stani's, not UK nationals but guys that lived in ****stan. The majority, 99%, were very decent, honest people. They had a lot of attributes, however, feminism certainly wasn't one of them.
I also made a statement about white Texans and my prejudice from dealing with them.
Does that make me a bigot? A racist?
bigoted
?
adjective
obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, and intolerant towards other people's beliefs and practices
We really are not all like this. I am not sure we were ever evolutionary compelled to be such.
Bigotry and "pre judging" or reading a scenario are not the same things
Bigotry and "pre judging" or reading a scenario are not the same things
They basically are. It's just at what level.
I would just like to state that from JY definition of bigotry I don't consider myself a bigot. I still stand by my prejudiced opinions that I stated earlier.
deadlydarcy - Member
It's the kind of statement bigots make when they need to justify bigotry. Is that your intent?
Is that simple? Ya? 😆
Junkyard - lazarusbigoted
?
adjective
obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, and intolerant towards other people's beliefs and practicesWe really are not all like this. I am not sure we were ever evolutionary compelled to be such.
Bigotry and "pre judging" or reading a scenario are not the same things
Ya, ya, ya ... very well with all those responses etc ...
But you still have not answered my question to you.
What's up? 🙄
DrJ, there is no right to enter or live in a country of your choice, so there is no breach of CERD in applying a nationality condition to restrict this.
Do currently un-processed refugees have all the same rights as citizens?
Calling someone a racist or bigot is an excellent way of shutting down a debate about a difficult topic. The accusation however does not prove the fact. In this case the ban seems justified as a temporary measure until a long term solution can be found. Anyone who has spent any length of time in a strictly Islamic country would,at least, be aware that attitudes in many young males are very inconsistent with those here in the west, to deny this is simply foolish. Just stating that fact is enough to be called racist or bigoted in many circles it seems. All ideas and beliefs have equal standing is the view put forward, I am afraid to say they simply don't, there is a scale of human well being that many Islamic beliefs and customs support less well than other systems. Unfortunately sometimes the actions of the few do inconvenience the many, as has happened here. Shouting racism from the sidelines seems at best counter productive and at worst a deliberately inflammatory thing to do.
Anyone who has spent any length of time in a strictly Islamic country would,at least, be aware that attitudes in many young males are very inconsistent with those here in the west, to deny this is simply foolish.
Lucky then, that nobody has done that eh ?
Just stating that fact is enough to be called racist or bigoted in many circles it seems
Gobuchul seemed to be enjoying calling himself a bigot (until a definition of what it meant was posted)
Three North African immigrants arrested for stoning in Dortmund:
@ninfan please stop posting such inconvenient mews items, its pointless anyway as people here will just ignore it and won't reply anyway
The tension in Germany is extremely high but Frau Merkel is trying to sweep it under a very very large carpet whilst her Finance minister suggests citizens throughout the EU should pay for her idiocy with higher fuel taxes.
there are "inconvenient news items" from both sides of the fence.
Four suspected neo-Nazis to stand trial in Germany on charges of planning nail bomb terror attacks against mosques and refugee shelters
Was there restrictions put on all white German males due to the actions of this minority ?
Or did they just arrest the actual people involved and leave everyone else alone ?
Actually that isn't inconveninet at all, it shows the difficulties of managing a huge influx of people from a different culture in a short period of time. Germany is a country where Pergida have held frequent rallies regularly attracting 10's of thousands of people. Encouraging a million asylum seekers into an already somewhat unstable environment was very naive. Frau Merkel assumed her "who arrive legally" qualifier would control the numbers, she was very wrong.
Part of the nail bomb plot was to bomb Mosques, unless the refugees have been very busy since they arrived, then it was just Muslims they were going to be attacking, refugees or not.
Either way, Merkel's policies are not really relevant to this particular debate.
The situation is what it is.
We are discussing whether it's ok to ban all male refugees from certain places because of the actions of a few.
Was there restrictions put on all white German males due to the actions of this minority ?
Yes, there are huge restrictions on all 'white German males' due to the actions of neo-nazis, Strafgesetzbuch 86a outlaws all sorts of things - flags, uniforms, books, greetings, traditional folk songs etc.
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