[Closed] Might have bought a lemon (used car).

1.8 petrol by any chance?

Consumer law may be on your side, check out the .gov and/or citizens advices website portals for advice on rejecting it (or at least getting it repaired FOC).

When the EML came on and you took it to the garage did you ask them where all your oil was going?

Get to a garage now, otherwise you oil MPG will be getting excruciating.

It is a 1.8 petrol. My wife took it to the garage but didn't mention the oil when they were looking at the misfiring problem. I'll make sure to mention it tomorrow.

I was hoping sales of goods act might help me, but after 4 months do I have much chance?

I think you have up to 6 months.

See Citizens Advice advice:
[url= http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/consumer_cars_and_other_vehicles_e/consumer_problems_with_the_car_you_bought_e/the_car_you_bought_is_faulty.htm ]linky[/url]

flicker - Member
1.8 petrol by any chance?

Hi flicker, sounds like you know something. Pls tell as my 2nd car has this same engine and using loads of oil:(

6 litres of oil in 3 weeks ~? thats a complete oil change and some....

stop driving that thing now - take it to the garage you bought it from

the more you fart around trying to work around the problem changing this and that the more the garage has recourse to tell you to eff off as people have been meddling.

what milage is on it ?

Unless the oil is visibly falling out the bottom of the engine bay your catalyst may well be gummed up by now.

Take it to the garage until they sort everything out, don't just keep pouring more oil in the top.

I took it back in to our local garage this morning. The mechanic revved the engine and showed me the huge plume of brown smoke coming out of the exhaust. Piston rings, head gasket, or valve lifters seem to be the most likely reason. I've not contacted the dealer we bought it from yet. I thought it would be better to have our garage at least see if the problem was the result of something we have done or if it was already in the car when we bought it.

It had 58,000 miles on it when we bought it and we've put about 3,000 on it in 4 months.

You really shouldn't be taking the car to anyone other than the main dealer you bought it from until you have sorted the issue! What warranty came with it?

at a guess i reckon you have been using supermarket fuel ? specifically i reckon .... tescos ? (im not blaming you for this ... im just enquiring ... ive had quite alot of bad experiance with tescos fuel coking engines - which miraculously clears up when i go put in some premium....... might be incidental mind you) your engine unless its had a really hard life towing something it shouldnt have been or loaded to the gunnels has probably done loads of short journeys with shitey fuel and had the piston rings gum up

You need to take it back to the place you bought it. Not another garage.

[i]the fan belt snapped on the motorway[/i]

do they still have mechanical fans?

you sure it wasn't the water pump or something?

Did the car overheat before (if it was slipping)?

trail-rat - I doubt the wrong fuel would be causing that catalogue of errors! Unless he was putting in ethanol mixed with Vimto or something.

I know you probably will have but have you looked at all the old MOT's online to see if the mileage/etc matches- no discrepancies? 58k and the belt snaps, sounds like way too many issues for such a low mileage car.

DONT tell the selling dealer that a garage has been touching your car IMO.

I'd agree with hora, just present them the car and play dumb.

fan belts just a throw back from when they had mechanical fans - they will be electric on that car these days - itll be the aux belt. waterpumps usually off the cam belt/chain these days.

youll be surprised what shite fuel that wont burn completely leaves behind.

im with hora.

We took out a 6 month warranty on it (FreePlan extra). Having looked into the warranty a bit deeper now (it's with a company called Warranty Management Specialists), I've seen lots of negative reviews about people trying to claim. Piston rings and and cylinder heads are supposedly covered by the warranty.

I think it was the fan belt that snapped. There was no overheating before it snapped, but it did heat up after. We pulled onto the hard shoulder immediately when the high engine temp warning came on.

It gets mixture of BP, Shell or Asda fuel mostly.We don't have a tesco filling station near us.

Piemann DONT BOTHER WITH THE WARRANTY. Forget it- deal ONLY with the seller.

The warranty company will have stipulations, only cover upto X amount etc etc on numerous issues. As soon as you engage them/they start doing the work the seller may say 'nowt to do with me- your garage might have caused subsequent problems'- it'll get muddy at best then.

Keep it clear cut. Look up a template on google and write a letter rejecting a secondhand purchase on (bullet point) grounds.

If you go down the warranty route you'll end up potentially with a ongoing niggling project-car.

Dealer- reject - get that car out of your life.

I've rejected a car before. Recently whilst looking for cars I came across dealers who said 'we dont offer any warranty but I can sell you an excellent aftermarket one or why dont you buy an aftermarket one they are cheap and great' - I've walked away. Anyone who defers their responsibility is either hiding a pup or isn't someone I'd do business with.

listen to hora.

just because you took that warrenty doesnt absolve them of your sales of goods rights

This may help

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/consumer_cars_and_other_vehicles_e/consumer_problems_with_the_car_you_bought_e/the_car_you_bought_is_faulty.htm

Thanks for all the advice.

Should I contact the seller to look at the car before sending him a letter rejecting it?

The Which website quotes:
"But you only have a reasonable time to reject a second hand car. While there's no clear definition of what a reasonable time is – it probably needs to be within three to four weeks – less if it's an obvious problem."

After 16 weeks, do I really have this option?

Ok, the link Hora posted suggests I have 6 months. I will certainly give it a try.

4 months?

You are hitting buying-back/reduced refund territory as you have had the car for a period of time however I'd aim for him taking the car back/full refund as a strong stance.

If I had a car that had issues and was relatively low mileage I'd recheck all the old MOT's -verify against the service history too. I know its off on a tangent hypothetically but it takes minutes to do.

If it turns out the car has mileage discrepancies this also strengthens your case for a full refund/reject significantly.

What you dont want is a car that has to be nursed/may continue to give you grief because what happens next? You get sick of the car (i.e dont trust it) and sell it for a big loss..

What are the mileages recorded for 08-09-10-11-12?

huge plume of brown smoke coming out of the exhaust

Brown smoke = too rich. So that's showing an overfuelling problem - at least that's the visible symptom.

If the coolant is ok, that probably eliminates the head gasket, generally with a bust head gasket you'd see problems with coolant.

The horrific oil consumption would suggest the lifters aren't to blame for the fuelling problem, broke lifters wouldn't affect the oil.

I'd agree with TR on piston rings.

Whatever it is, its most likely a stripdown & rebuild job - not a cheap repair.

Plus by now, cat converter and possibly O2 sensor will be shagged. (edit - *maybe* - you might have been getting away with it if the fuel mix isn't too rich for the cat/sensor)

Best of luck.

Hora - you do realise that if you keep offering sound and well reasoned advice, instead of talking bollox, your reputation is going to be shot to pieces? 😉

Pieman - that does sound like awfully low mileage to be giving those kind of problems. Its not an ex fleet or hire car, or owt is it? or as Clarkson stated - the fastest cars in the world

Piston rings. Righto.

Are these the sort of things that could have failed in the short time I've owned it or would it have been a problem that was already there when I bought it.

I think that's my key concern about going back and asking for a refund or for it to be fixed for free.

MOT mileage check. LONGshot but maybe it'll throw something up that'll help.

https://www.gov.uk/check-mot-history-vehicle

i honestly dont think they have failed at that milage - i reckon they just be gummed up - but thats not to say that the damaged caused by this isnt expensive.

just had a google of your engine assuming 1.8 duratec - seems that either the PCV or the engine coking up seems popular faults with it

piemann - I don't see why you're being so hesitant to contact the dealer you purchased from. Phone him up, explain that you're having a few problems and ask if you can bring it in for him to look at. Go in friendly at first and see what he says; give him the opportunity to fulfil his obligations.

If he starts trying to shirk them or charge you then start down the SOGA and rejection route.

In all likelyhood the dealer may not have been aware of the issues, but that doesn't mean he can shirk his responsibilities.

Don't go in all guns blazing threatening to reject the car; it's a long difficult process.

do you have full service history for it?

i think I'm missing a service stamp for one year, but all the others are present and correct.

I'll call the dealer, explain the problem (omitting any mention of the other garage) and see what they say.

Its averaged 7,000 miles a year?

I'll call the dealer, explain the problem (omitting any mention of the other garage) and see what they say.

Good start, then report back for further advice.

I'm astounded that you are on here asking about it, I'd be down at the dealers getting them to sort it first.

As has been said. Don't mention you have had someone else look at it. They will use it to wriggle out of any responsibility they have.

As said above go straight to the garage and don't mention anything that may lessen your case ()"fan" belt, other garage looking at it etc) just tell them it's a lemon and you want your money back using all the info Hora has supplied. Start with the strong position and climb down from there at your discretion.

Good luck.

IF the dealer doesn't offers to fix it or take it back (very likely) it will be quite difficult to reject the car after 4 months given its 9 years old.

You might be able to take them to court for the costs of fixing it. You'd have to find the problem, then get an independent engineers report (about 150 quid). The independent engineers can't touch the car, so it has to be in bits for them to inspect. Then you can go to court armed with the report which (hopefully) says the problem existed when you bought the car.

If the report can't determine when the fault occurred, you'd most likely lose in court.

Without an independent report, its very difficult for a judge to make a decision.

I did all of the above within a month of buying a car when the cambelt came off. Dealer paid up 2 weeks before court appearance.

My advice: stick it on ebay with an honest description and buy something else. My car kept going wrong even after it was fixed. I kept thinking it would be fine after i fixed each problem. It never was. Some cars are just cr@p.

My advice: stick it on ebay with an honest description and buy something else.

So your saying 4months after buying a car from a dealer you would take a massive hit avoiding taking on the dealer? The one thing ^ I said you should avoid?!

Ok, I'm now just waiting on the dealer phoning me back.

If it's missing a service stamp and no receipts to show it had that service, the warranty was almost certainly void as soon as it came into effect.

Hora speaks sense, don't get dragged into the warranty route, it's a sale of goods issue but go in lightly without reciting the sale of goods act, just know your rights/his obligations when he tries to wiggle out of it!

Standard warranty is 4 months so unless you've extended or they offer more (which if its from a form garage they should) then you're ok

If not then definitely speak to the dealer anyway, they should help. Worst comes to worst negotiate for a part exchange on another car

But, in case that doesn't work, keep a pair of these in the boot….

[img] [/img]

😉

we need a bigger photo binners.

[edit] you edited.

I got a bit carried away with the level of violence required 😳

Dammit, I just sold my old bombers to a mate.

I spoke to the dealer who can apparently 100% guarantee that the problem wasn't there when I bought the car.

What do I do now?

Letter of rejection as a next step?

How can they 100% guarantee the problem was not there? Don't roll over! Fight the man!

What did you tell him was the issue to allow him to be 100% sure it wasn't there when you bought the car?

I think you need to go down and see him rather than dealing with this over the phone.

What do I do now?

Tell him that sounds impressive, and you eagerly await the proof?

I bought my car from a dealer about 3 years ago (a 1.6 petrol c-max, so a different engine), 5 months and 3 weeks later a power steering hose split (common ford fault, depsite it being a generic goodridge hose that probably gets fitted in a lot of cars).

I'd be 100% sure it was fine when they sold it to me. But it was their job to fix it and they did.

I'd not try rejecting just yet, go in in person and press them to fix the problem.

And I'm never convinced by the 'supermarket fuel did it' claims. Tesco don't have any refineries in the UK, and neither do Shell. They might stick an aditive in to do one thing or another but:

a) if they did, don't you think they'd make more of a song and dance about it, after all it's costing them money to do.
b) it's the same basic fuel whichever garage you go to, from whichever refinery was closest/cheepest. If there was some uncombustible crap in it, it would appear at more retailers.

I guess it comes down to who can prove what.

The last MOT was done at 58,000 ish (so not many miles between that and us buying it). If there was oil burning at that time, would it have shown up on the emissions test?

It's about what you can reasonably expect from a car you've bought secondhand from a dealer, not whether it was a pre-existing problem.

My view is that it's not reasonable for it to fail in this way after so few miles. If you agree then you need to actually go and visit the dealer, park the car outside and have a row with them. Pick a busy time for them.

[b]piemann

Citizens advice bureau is your friend now
Consumer helpline
08454
04 05 06

You will get all the help you need...you will go round in circles on this thread, get some ADVICE ASAP

Your local office of fair trading also would take a keen interest...[/b]

It's about what you can reasonably expect from a car you've bought secondhand from a dealer, [b]not whether it was a pre-existing problem.[/b]

Not true for used cars

OFT.GOV.UK "http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/676408/oft1241.pdf"

I guess it can work both ways;
[i]
You are liable for faults with the vehicle
that were present at the time you sold it
(where they mean the vehicle was not of
satisfactory quality), even though they
may only become apparent later on –
so called ‘latent’ or ‘inherent’ faults.
In some instances the specific fault
complained about may not have been
present at the time of purchase but the
inherent cause of the problem could have
rendered the vehicle unsatisfactory at the
time of sale.[/i]

I think i'd consider what's happened a latent fault - ie. it was present at time of sale but not detectable. Assuming it is cylinder/valve wear causing the problem it won;t have happened that quickly.

My last 2p (honest);

I guess the first thing is to get the car back to them get a diagnosis see if they think the warranty covers it and if not start arguing?

Intrigued as to what Flicker knows about these engines, the Duratec is in a lot of vehicles, being chain driven and going on the fact they are still in production after 21 years you'd expect them to be pretty reliable? no?

Hope this all works out.

Have actually looked at a couple of Focus C-Max and Mondeo Estates for about 3k with around 70K miles recently.
Have a little one on the way and currently have a Passat 130 PD that's just about on 185,000, starting to develop lots of little niggles (none engine related though) figured we'd get something that's not potentially going to cost a lot in the very near future, going by threads on here though, I should maybe just keep the Passat?!

Dont think its really fair to call the duratec 21 years old. Especially since its pretty much just a brand name ford give to petrol dohc engines they happen to use...they are not even all ford engines.

Have actually looked at a couple of Focus C-Max and Mondeo Estates for about 3k with around 70K miles recently.
Have a little one on the way and currently have a Passat 130 PD that's just about on 185,000, starting to develop lots of little niggles (none engine related though) figured we'd get something that's not potentially going to cost a lot in the very near future, going by threads on here though, I should maybe just keep the Passat?!

http://www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=14319

Im bored and stuck in baku so i googled.

Apparently a very common issue on this mazda designed engine. Throwing mazda 3 1.8 into google has thrown up some useful stuff i think see my link.

Positive crankcase vent is a major service item every 30k miles- when was yours last done ?

* edit - seems i have the wrong engine in mind

* no im right it is the mazda engine.

I was just going on the wiki page:
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Duratec_engine ]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Duratec_engine[/url]

Fair point though, 9 years not 21 years:
Duratec-HE 1.8 L, 2.0 L - 2005–present - DOHC I4

Checked the MOT history/notes?

The 1.8 in the focus is a belt driven engine, the one in the Mondeo is a chain cam engine. We had the belt driven 1.8 110 bhp in our focus. Then they brought out a 125 bhp model a few months later. Don't know of any generic problems with this engine. We had ours for 8yrs up to 103 k. Only problem was crap in the plenum and a sticky egr valve. I suspect the problem lies here. Could it be the breather pipes sucking oil into the inlet side. Ours was absolutely blocked solid. The only other thing is the oil control rings on the pistons. Very unusual this though.

The 1.8 in the focus is a belt driven engine, the one in the Mondeo is a chain cam engine

Sure you're not referring to the belt driven Zetec?
Zetec was Mk1 focus, Duratec Mk2 onwards

Recent Duratec (that era) was alloy head and chain timing vs cast iron head and belt timing.

So, you've had 4 months use of the car, & are now after rejecting it? Good luck with that one.

I purchased a car many moons ago, and to cut a long story short there was an issue with the cambelt within 2 months or so. The garage I got it from played awkward (little **** of a salesman), so via the warranty went I went elsewhere to find the fault which became an engine stripdown/repair.

Even with an RAC report stating the problem that garage number 2 confirmed, the original garage still played awkward until I picked up the phone to Trading Standards, they then decided to play ball and fix the fault 'as a goodwill gesture, advised by his lawyer'.

What yr did the focus change to a mk 2. Think the mk 2s were chain driven. Think the problem is hopefully just the emission control engine breathing pulling oil from the crankcase and burning it. Where else can that quantity of oil go. It can't be leaking you'd see it on the engine.

What yr did the focus change to a mk 2

2005

Think the problem is hopefully just the emission control engine breathing pulling oil from the crankcase and burning it

dodgy rings = lots of crank pressure = oil pushed out through breathers (etc) ?

An I missing something here? I thought it was standard 60 days on used cars and that was your lot?

thinking about it - it would pretty much have to be an unhindered communication path.

my old 19j diesel has a cracked piston and smokes like a goodun - doesnt even drink 6litres in 3 weeks .... more like a litre in 6 months....

I am sure that if you were burning that amount of oil, you would not see any traffic behind you for blue smoke.

any update fella ?

Went to the dealers yesterday. It was all frightfully civilised. We stated our case. He maintains his position that the car was fine when we bought it and isn't in a position to repair/replace/refund. No big surprises there.

Now it all goes in writing and if no resolution can be agreed, citizens advice recommend speaking to my credit card company and opening a dispute through them.

It's not likely to be a quick process. Will update as and when we hear more.