[Closed] Middle class alcohol abuse

I wondered the same. Also wondered what the point/newsworthiness of it was.

More info here:

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jul/23/harmful-drinking-among-middle-class-over-50s-is-a-hidden-phenomenon

As long as it's wine of an acceptable standard then it isn't alcoholism.

Chin chin daaaaahling

My colleague, a similar age to me (30) once introduced himself as a drinker - 'all i do at the weekends is drink'

i dont know if he was trying to impress but... each to their own!

He 'bullies' me for 'rolling down hills'

They found that those who were wealthier, better educated and whose children had left home were more likely to drink to harmful levels – more than 21 units (nine pints of beer) a week for men and more than 14 units (one and a half bottles of wine) for women.

A typical Daily Wail scare story.

The drinking limits were just picked out of the air by some medical committee and there is no real evidence that 9 pints of beer a week is harmful.

Personally, I think nearly all of my friends and colleagues drink far in excess of that.

Binners relaxing of a weekend:

[img] [/img]

As long as it's wine of an acceptable standard then it isn't alcoholism.

Yep, anything over £30 a bottle doesn't count.

Must be a "no-news" day,IIRC this story is rolled out every couple of months.

I must admit I am partial to a glass or two of wine whilst preparing tea.

Steph and Dom are actually what I aspire too 😀

They found that those who were wealthier, better educated and whose children had left home were more likely to drink to harmful levels – more than 21 units (nine pints of beer) a week for men and more than 14 units (one and a half bottles of wine) for women.

You do realise that those 'Harmful Levels' figures were just plucked out of the air, in a Johnny ball 'Think of a Number' style, and are based on absolutely nothing?

[img] [/img]

Yet the government like to quote them as if they were passed down from God on tablets of marble.

The Guardian article suggests alcoholism in the 50 plus middle class demographic is a hidden problem - seems pretty in your face if you ask me ..

Iparraguirre found that reporting better health and higher educational attainment were positively associated with an increased risk of harmful drinking. “Because this group is typically healthier than other parts of the older population, they might not realise that what they are doing is putting their health in danger,” he said.

So those who drink more are healthier? Or maybe the limits are bullshit. Moderate drinking somewhat beyond the "limits" isn't really risky compared to other factors like stress, smoking, flab, and lack of exercise.

A teetotal couch potato on 20 fags a day needs to worry. A couple of malts after dinner not so much.

Moderate drinking somewhat beyond the "limits" isn't really risky compared to other factors like stress, smoking, flab, and lack of exercise.

You complain about the lack of evidence for official limits and then make an evidence-free statement yourself.

The recent relative cheapness and social acceptance of regular alcohol consumption in our society is already thought to have contributed to a spike in liver cirrhosis at the very sharp end of alcohol users. We don't yet know the full impact, particularly among women, of a more moderate rise in consumption.

Naturally, people tend to place more weight on health advice that mirrors their own lifestyle.

Sorry. Thought the benefits of not smoking and taking at least moderate exercise were fairly well proven. I stand corrected.

I would agree that for people who need help relaxing, a couple of beers or glasses of wine a day probably do more good than harm. When I'm on business trips to Africa the daily stress of a city like Lagos is easily moderated with a couple of beers, especially as the Nigerians do brew some excellent lagers, certainly more characterful than the Europiss that gets served up in Britain.

When I get back from a two-week trip though I find I have to resist the urge for that after-work beer. The flab that has built up during two weeks of beer and hotel food and zero exercise soon disappears when I get back to my usual pattern of occasional, irregular drinks and plenty of cycling.

My parents used to fit into that to some extent - more free cash and a less hectic home life as kids grow up and leave. Can see how easy it is to slide into drinking rather a lot.

Used to have a bottle of wine as a treat on Friday and/or Saturday. That starts to creep up to most nights, then every night. Then as you've had a couple of glasses while cooking dinner, you run out so open another bottle. Maybe a G&T or two before dinner, maybe a (definitely not pub measure) whiskey or brandy after. Quite easy to creep up to 60-70 units a week if you're routinely drinking every night.

They've cut down quite a lot now, keep it to weekend and maybe one midweek day.

I go out and get drunk - only 3-4 pints of 4-6% beer - once a month. I feel a bit ropey the next morning.

Once a week I'll have a couple of beers. I feel thirsty the next morning.

A lot of friends and colleagues think I'm a wimp?

Sorry. Thought the benefits of not smoking and taking at least moderate exercise were fairly well proven. I stand corrected.

So are the disadvantages of drinking more than moderate levels of alcohol. Your statement that the risks of more than moderate drinking aren't very high compared with the effects of 'stress', 'flab', 'lack of exercise' probably needs some more evidence, doesn't it?

The statement that the 1987 guidelines weren't evidence-based was fair enough at the time, but people still trot it out now even though more recent studies consistently point towards a linear relationship between mortality risk and alcohol consumption (above moderate levels).

That can't be Binners, where are the coke and hookers?

It's a "hidden problem", in that it falls far short of most people's definition of a problem.

🙂

MoreCashThanDash - Member

I go out and get drunk - only 3-4 pints of 4-6% beer - once a month. I feel a bit ropey the next morning.

Once a week I'll have a couple of beers. I feel thirsty the next morning.

A lot of friends and colleagues think I'm a wimp?

I go out and get drunk maybe twice a year, I don't really like to, there's a million things I'd rather do than spend a day feeling sick and I get terrible hangovers, partly I think because, like you I'm pretty drunk on 3 drinks, but I seem to be able to carry on for half a dozen more, I shudder thinking about it...

Yeah I lot of my work mates think I'm a wimp too, but I don't care. If it bothered me I suppose I could call them wimps for not going on 2 days booze, coke and pills benders and still turning up for work on Monday - I did a lot of those in the 2000s.

Sober and riding/playing with my kids/walking with my wife - enjoying my life is a million times better than harming yourself for the chance of spending a few hours forgetting how unhappy you are.

globalti, just get on the khat next time you are there. No more flab.

A lot of friends and colleagues think I'm a wimp?

thats several hundred years of socially acceptable alcohol abuse and the attitudes that come with it.
this country has a huge problem with alcohol to the extent that moderate drinking is seen as the that of an outlier and not to be encouraged. “eatings cheating”, shots/drinking games. loading up before ‘hitting the booze’ etc etc.
much like the attitude to cycling in this country it will take many decades for this insular and backward looking behaviour to change.

it will take many decades for this insular and backward looking behaviour to change.

I reckon legal weed may be the cheat-code. 🙂

Thats several hundred years of socially acceptable alcohol abuse and the attitudes that come with it.
this country has a huge problem with alcohol to the extent that moderate drinking is seen as the that of an outlier and not to be encouraged. “eatings cheating”, shots/drinking games. loading up before ‘hitting the booze’ etc etc.
much like the attitude to cycling in this country it will take many decades for this insular and backward looking behaviour to change.

Spot on. How often do you hear people boasting about how much they drank, how much they mixed their drinks and how smashed they were? This British irresponsibility towards alcohol is costing the country millions and I think it gets worse the further north you go; in fact I'd be willing to bet that in Scotland 8 out of 10 people are out of their heads most evenings.

You are joking?

and I think it gets worse the further north you go; in fact I'd be willing to bet that in Scotland 8 out of 10 people are out of their heads most evenings.

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/scottish-coffee-actually-lager-2014072188742 ]Probably.....[/url]

😀

Anyone fancy a pint?

I was just thinking that the pubs are open shortly. I started a few hours ago though...

[img] [/img]

As a Camra man, I receive the regular Camra newsletter, which is often fronted with a news article listing the health benefits of beer.
The rest of the newsletter is obituaries, mind.

Spot on. How often do you hear people boasting about how much they drank, how much they mixed their drinks and how smashed they were? This British irresponsibility towards alcohol is costing the country millions and I think it gets worse the further north you go; in fact I'd be willing to bet that in Scotland 8 out of 10 people are out of their heads most evenings.

I would wager that it's actually saving the state money. Smokers, drinkers, overeaters, and those of a similarly debauched lifestyle tend to peg out early, saving billions in pensions, health care, and social welfare.
In the short term they may cost the taxpayer but that's offset to some extent by the extra taxes they pay. In the long term it's the prebyterian fitness junkies who are going to cost us!

I can see this, it's very easy to do, glass or 2 of wine ever night, maybe a Scotch or 2 as well. Friday comes, bottle of wine, maybe a G&T, same Saturday, plus a couple of beers, then another bottle over Sunday lunch. Not the excess most people think of but a sizeable amount nonetheless.

I had a feeling I was slipping into this habit a few years ago when I was having a couple of bottles of beer very night and cut back, I'll have a beer or 2 most weekends but drinking every night is a dangerous game IMO.

I must admit I am partial to a glass or two of wine whilst preparing breakfast.

FTFY

Alcohol is a losers game in my opinion. if it was discovered today it would be a class A drug.

My best mates grandpa (who for the record was a self made multi millionaire) sat us down before Uni and told that 'alcohol will destroy your life in incredibly subtle ways. You don't need to be an alcoholic to let it chip away at you'. We both thought 'whatever, we're 18 and know it all' despite not actually having done anything in life!! Fast forward 20 years and the chap was right, i have seen people lose jobs, relationships, friendships, lose their bite, lose their enthusiasm and 99% of the time alcohol has been the underlying cause.

I have a beer every now and again, but haven't got stuck in for about 8 years and i feel like a different person for not touching it. I'd rather hangover free and out in the hills fresh and early.....

To some of my mates, i seem like i've just landed in a UFO!! 🙂

Each to their own and all that!

I would agree that for people who need help relaxing, a couple of beers or glasses of wine a day probably do more good than harm. When I'm on business trips to Africa the daily stress of a city like Lagos is easily moderated with a couple of beers, especially as the Nigerians do brew some excellent lagers, certainly more characterful than the Europiss that gets served up in Britain.

It was too many Bottles of Star (Nigerian Breweries) that convinced me sobriety was the only way. Lagos with a hangover is Hells waiting room 🙁

I've always maintained that far from being demonised by the health nazi's, us unhealthy bastards should be thanked for our disproportinate tax contributions, and our selflessly suicidal habits, that will lead to us costing the state a mere short hospital stay while the inevitable takes its toll.

But we'll have the last laugh when you're all sat in Sunset Meadows Home for the terminally bewildered in a big nappy, stinking of piss, and boring everyone rigid about coming here when it was all fields. Muhahaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!! 😀

unset Meadows Home for the terminally bewildered in a big nappy, stinking of piss,

Sounds like my local Wetherspoons.

Key messages
Healthcare and pension costs are lower for smokers than non-smokers, the overall difference being more than 100?000 euros per individual.

From a Finnish survey on smoking costs to the state.
Smoking, not drinking, but still the Devil's own work...

http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/2/6/e001678.full

Sounds like my local Wetherspoons.

Yes, but theyr're bewildered and happy...

[img] [/img]

no mention of the ‘human’ cost such as the effects on others be it family, work colleagues or the people you kill when you drive after ‘just a couple at lunchtime'

no mention of the ‘human’ cost such as the effects on others be it family, work colleagues or the people you kill when you drive after ‘just a couple at lunchtime'

Yeah, cos everyone who drinks more than the recommended daily limit immediately heads out in their car to mow down pedestrians.

Dear God, sometimes the lazy, sanctimonious, self-righteous, puritanical, judgemental, superior, middle class, Daily Mail-esque bleating on here really defies beief!

😆 @ binners cartoon. 😆

I'm not sure it's as clear-cut as drinking = bad, and abstinence = good.
Drinking can be used to relieve periods of stress, obviously this shouldn't be a permanent solution but it has helped get me through some very difficult weeks.
There are studies showing that Jewish and Muslim men have higher rates of depression than the gentiles/infidels because they DON'T drink.
Pubs can also play an important role in promoting "Social capital" - networks of friends, helping to alleviate the loneliness of modern life for many people.
The problem is BINGING/EXCESS. This goes for everything - food (as big a killer IMO), booze, smoking, I'd also include exercise in this.
Rather than promoting a culture which heckles against any type of pleasure, we need a network of friends, who will occassionally say "lay off a bit big fella" when it starts to become a lifestyle of excess.

Damnit Binners, now I have a strong desire to play the [url= http://www.withnail-links.com/drinking.htm ]Withnail and I drinking game[/url].

(Not really. Do not under any circumstances ever try to play the Withnail and I drinking game, kids, it's quite a bad idea.)

It might be a good thing for the younger generation if my age group (50+) peg out earlier than the projected life expectancy as the poor sods might have some houses to buy & not get taxed to the hilt.

I know I drink too much for the good of my health, but it does take the edge off what for me is an emotionally draining existence. Luckily I'm not an aggressive drunk or that could be a problem.

I thought they'd dropped using units per week as a measure of whether you were drinking too much - the labels on the back of my bottles say "recommend do not regularly exceed: men 3-4 units daily, women 2-3 units daily" (so that's already above the 21/14 units mentioned in the article - it seems 28/21 is OK or even a bit more if you have a couple of heavy nights a week which is apparently fine).

If I'm reading correctly, that article is saying that when surveyed, people who are actually healthy were drinking more than some arbitrary outdated limits which they reckon means they're not as healthy as they actually are. I'm also less than convinced that damage due to alcohol is in any way linear with consumption - they might have managed to fit a line to whatever data they generated, but that's not the same thing at all.

Not that I'm condoning genuine middle class alcohol abuse - there is plenty of that about and I had an aunt who was an alcoholic and died of alcohol related illness. I'm just not convinced that drinking more than 4 units in the evening with a meal in the comfort of your own home is actually that. FWIW my personal average consumption is well below 21 units per week as I often have completely dry weeks, though I do sometimes go well over that.

aracer is right - govt guidelines are stated as daily as they want to avoid binge drinking, because otherwise people think that 7 units on consecutive nights is ok, which it isn't

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/25/special-occasion-drinking-bottle-wine

treat the above link as a quiz - I do, or have done 11 out of the 12

no real evidence that 9 pints of beer a week is [b]safe[/b]

I knew you were a yummy mummy lunchtime fizz kinda girl Ed! 😀

The quoted limits also take no account of body weight. A 6ft3 16 stone male can drink more than a 5ft6 8 stone male for the same risk of harm.

was just about to comment but was interrupted by a call from Majestic telling me my order was ready

I will be adding to the statistic tonight, I've got mates around and we've been off the beer for all of Ramadan (though none of us are religious, we just do it during this time of year, in part because we're riding more and training more whilst it's good weather and the suns out)

Vodka & Tonics all round.

You complain about the lack of evidence for official limits and then[b] make an evidence-free statement[/b] yourself.

The recent relative cheapness and social acceptance of regular alcohol consumption in our society is already [b]thought to have contributed[/b] to a

Yeah, cos everyone who drinks more than the recommended daily limit immediately heads out in their car to mow down pedestrians.

But that's not what he was even suggesting, which was perfectly obvious and yet you completely distorted it for some reason.

Dear God, sometimes the lazy, sanctimonious, self-righteous, puritanical, judgemental, superior, middle class, Daily Mail-esque bleating on here really defies beief!

You're telling us!

I'm on an early finish, so we're all off to the pub now.

Its likely to get messy

Cheers all. Have a nice afternoon 😀

IMO the threshold is bollocks. They lump together people who have a pint or two per night along with those who have a couple of bottles of wine, and find out that this group on average has health problems. But those who drink a pint or two (2-3 glasses of wine) didn't!

It blows my mind how calorific alcohol is. If anybody is thinking about shaving a few pounds then you could do a lot worse than looking here! 🙂

By a lot I mean nearly twice as much per gram as sugar. Crazy!

yep, and that's BEFORE you factor in the alcohol-enhanced loveliness of kebabs, take away pizza and chip shop teas

Fast forward 20 years and the chap was right, i have seen people lose jobs, relationships, friendships, lose their bite, lose their enthusiasm and 99% of the time alcohol has been the underlying cause.

I've seen friends go through similar scenarios and 100% time alcohol had nothing to do with it.

Alcohol dependency is bloody awful though see far too much of it at work.

By a lot I mean nearly twice as much per gram as sugar. Crazy!

On the plus side, a bottle of wine is probably several of your five a day.

binners - Member
As long as it's wine of an acceptable standard then it isn't alcoholism.

Chin chin daaaaahling

😀

I knew you were a yummy mummy lunchtime fizz kinda girl Ed!

a flat roof pub with a load of daft middleaged blokes
a load of yummy mummies squiffy on prosecco

me, with my reputation ?

[quote=Three_Fish ]

Yeah, cos everyone who drinks more than the recommended daily limit immediately heads out in their car to mow down pedestrians.

So by "no mention of the ‘human’ cost such as the effects on others be it family, work colleagues or the people you kill when you drive after ‘just a couple at lunchtime'" he wasn't actually suggesting that drinking a bit more than their arbitrary limits turns you into somebody who kills people in your car? Given the number of people who are killed by sober drivers I'm wondering whether it's actually the human cost of alcohol we should be worrying about.

Hmm, ed's link really is a guide to middle class alcoholism though.

[url= http://www.sickchirpse.com/dumb-pissed-old-glaswegian-tries-hardest-start-bunch-skateboarders/ ][/url]

what has the world come to.
a shadow of its former self.
the friday EDL thread is now just a load of folk justifying their own drinking habits.

E - half a stale flapjack
D - water (expensive pish lager later)
L - R6

Surely less a question of units, and more a question of the relationship with alcohol. Are you enjoying a glass of wine, or are you self-medicating? Can you relax, socialise etc. without it?

So by "no mention of the ‘human’ cost such as the effects on others be it family, work colleagues or the people you kill when you drive after ‘just a couple at lunchtime'" he wasn't actually suggesting that drinking a bit more than their arbitrary limits turns you into somebody who kills people in your car?

That's right, he wasn't.

Given the number of people who are killed by sober drivers I'm wondering whether it's actually the human cost of alcohol we should be worrying about.

I think it's fine just to have a separate conversation, although there will no doubt be elements of each conversation that would be present in both. I don't think it's necessary to ignore one problem just because another exists.

I thought this survey simply identified richer middle class people spend more on alcohol, which does not necessarily equate to more units.

From what I have read in the press etc, I thought the problem was with cheap booze freely available to poor people.

This contradicts this but there is no direct evidence of units or is there?

Good to see Binners on form today!

FWIW, I have always found people who don't drink to be very dull and a bit odd!

(not wanting to insult anyone mind! 🙂 )

Does anyone want anything from the bar while I'm going?

[quote=Three_Fish] That's right, he wasn't.

In which case what was the relevance to this thread?

Pint of Vodka please Binners. I've got some units to use up.

Bucket of Red Bull with that?

.... And a straw? 😀

Have they got any peanuts? I need something to line my stomach if we are going on a bender.

I'll grab you a pork pie. I've just had one to see me through to the inevitable kebab later 😀

Just an ice cube and a straw please

Does anyone want anything from the bar while I'm going?

Maybe later just pulled around form yesterday's all day session.

Have they got any peanuts? I need something to line my stomach if we are going on a bender.

Eating is cheating, just MTFU!