[Closed] Merino baselayer

I would not recommend merino any more.  Expensive, doesn't wick well and dies in a few years as you've found out. 250 wears might sound a lot but I've got synthetic base layers working very well after ten years and more rides than that. My Icebreaker wore out on the back from my Camelbak.

wet clammy sticky thing

I still like merino for commuting in the colder weather, don't wear them MTBing as get too sweaty. SuperNatural and (as worn today) Isobaa are the nicest feeling ones I've got (both from SportPursuit as they are cheaper on there!)

You're pulling your top off in the boy way aren't you?  One hand grasping the back of the neck?  Do it properly, cross arms over, grasp the hem edges and pull upwards!

I have been buying Mountain Warehouse merinos the last few years, they seem ok, very stretchy too, which suits my, errr, cuddly body.

wet clammy sticky thing

Yup, hard to see why you're keen to go back for more! I quite like merino for low intensity activity in cold weather but they don't work for me as a wicking base for anything strenuous. Mountain Warehouse are cheap and OK but they're the scratchiest "merino" I've worn, an old Craghoppers one I've got is the softest and comfiest but that's from years ago and I don't think they do much quality stuff anymore. Unlike yours, my Howies tops acquired a load of holes and went out of shape in pretty short order so I'd steer clear personally.

Merino baselayers have been very useful in the recent beasts from the easts, and my Endura BaaBaa has served me very well.

When it's more than a few degrees above zero I switch back to synthetic, but I do run hot these days.

My Endura BaaBaas have lasted very well. I've also just bought a Solo one which is lovely to wear, but too early to comment on durability.

Wet clammy and sticky, maybe,  but still warm. Isn't that the point of Merino, that even when wet its still a warm layer?

What next, too-breathable Gore-Tex?

 Isn’t that the point of Merino, that even when wet its still a warm layer?

That's the point of all base layers.  Well - one of them at least.  The other is to transport moisture away from your body so it can be sucked through the outer shell.  Merino doesn't do this.  It holds onto the moisture, which is why it gets so wet in the first place.

Wet clammy and sticky, maybe,  but still warm. Isn’t that the point of Merino, that even when wet its still a warm layer?

I think the point of merino is that it doesn't get as stinky as some synthetics can. There are plenty of base layers that are warm without being wet, clammy and sticky.

Merino is a low output activity top for me, anything involving proper sweat is synthetic

I use it next to the skin when doing non sweaty stuff. When it's very cold I use it on the bike over a Brynje base layer which works well as the merino is never in contact with your skin.

Edit to actually answer the question - I use a DHB 200 one

250 wears might sound a lot but I’ve got synthetic base layers working very well after ten years and more rides than that. My Icebreaker wore out on the back from my Camelbak.

+1 I use a Helle Hansen synthetic base layer which must be in to multiple thousands of wears and washes now!! I do have a Howies merino as well (I quite like Howies stuff generally) but I find it very wet and sweaty in comparison.

Edit. I tend to get hot pretty hot while doing anything active.

that even when wet its still a warm layer?

not sure it remains warm though when your activity stops - I got some icebreaker ones for my wife for skiing - she hated them in the same manner than people discover that cotton t-shirts aren't a good choice for skiing either - as soon as she was on the lift and static she got cold.

consider wht would happen if you have an accident and are immobilized and possibly also suffering shock from breaking, or nearly breaking, something. Add on the coldness from the merino layer, not my idea of fun.

Isobaa ones are still around £30 on SportPursuit. Sooo soft.

it has had a good innings I would say conservatively over 250 wears and 150 washes.

Is that not a bit often to be washing it?

consider wht would happen if you have an accident and are immobilized and possibly also suffering shock from breaking, or nearly breaking, something. Add on the coldness from the merino layer, not my idea of fun.

Eh? That's why I wear merino when it's freezing out. It's warmer than synthetic when you have to do a bit of standing around.

Eh? That’s why I wear merino when it’s freezing out. It’s warmer than synthetic when you have to do a bit of standing around.

when it is wet from sweat ?

Switched my wife over to hh lifa from that merino and she was happy because she wasn't getting cold from a wet base layer when inactive on the ski lift.

Is that not a bit often to be washing it?

or not enough ?

A gentler wash that matched the ride frequency might be better.

My Endura BaBa ..has lasted very well too ( 10 years?) ..one ride and never again ..way too irritating ..

My HH & Berghaus synthetics are silky smooth and  have lasted forever.. still going strong ride after ride & countless washes .

I'm interested to know if those who like Merino are hairless  ?

I'm gorilla like and my body hair just does not get along with the sheep ..

This is the only Merino I've any time for ..

https://goo.gl/images/nF6UE9

I’m interested to know if those who like Merino are hairless  ?

How jolly personal! No, I'm Tom Jones like in my 70s-style body configuration.

Merino - the emperor's new base layer.

As most folk eventually worked out it's possibly the worst solution for a high intensity activity that also involves periods of low intensity or immobility.

Some of the merino/synthetic mixes do a good job though. I have a Groundbreaker Submerino top that remains one of my favourite and longest-lasting garments.

Wet clammy and sticky, maybe,  but still warm. Isn’t that the point of Merino, that even when wet its still a warm layer?

Mehhh.

Lycra base layers wick very quickly but also get wet so will make you chilly, they also have very little insulation. Which is why pretty much all summer sports kit is lycra based.

Polypropylene (and similar) is what 'smelly helly' base layers were/are made from (as well as fleece).  They're hydrophobic so don't get wet (you can swim in them and they'll dry in minutes as the water just runs/shakes off), as a result, they make very warm base layers but don't wick like lycra because they won't absorb the sweat, they just let your skin breath naturally.

Merino wicks like lycra so gets wet, but then doesn't dry (but doesn't wick as fast as lycra, so isn't quite as chilling when you stop). But does provide some insulation. So it's OK in a fairly narrow range of conditions (cold + dry + low intensity).

The only benefits of merino over PP type materials is it's softer and usually stretchier (because the lycra/elastane it's woven with is no better/worse than merino but if you've gone for PP there's no point compromising it) and they don't pong so much. If I leave a merino jersey in the car after a ride it's fine, if I leave my PP top after sailing I know about it the next morning!

It's also expensive, so if you ride a Cervelo to the cafe a H/H baselayer from Screwfix just doesn't give the same cachet as a Rapha merino top whilst supping your espresso.

Lycra base layers wick very quickly but also get wet

Wicking means sucking water through the fabric, not simply soaking it up.

Your kit is meant to function as a transport chain sucking your sweat away.  Any item that holds onto it could make you colder. On humid cold rides I'll take of my outer layer and see condensation on the outside of the next layer, so the wicking works.  The reason it condenses there is that a waterproof shell is the bottleneck, the least breathable part.

Dez B ..love that reply 😁.

As far as my HH top goes ..it wasn't from Screwfix but it wouldn't have mattered if it was and the only Rapha I will get close to being is as Raph as **** in my smelly Helly ..haha.

Pros and cons asside I have some from EDZ which I like.

https://www.edzlayering.com/collections/mens-collections

That and Icebreaker - but they were presents as the cost is high.

My favourite cycling top is a Howies Cadence merino jersey, which is worn an awful lot and is already 3 years old.

It fits a lot better than my Endura Baa Baa, which I find scratchy and sweaty in comparison.

I'm not actually sure what to wear home now I know I'm not allowed to wear merino anymore.

I’m not actually sure what to wear home now I know I’m not allowed to wear merino anymore.

You're allowed to wear it, you're just not allowed to think it's any good.

Get brynje, but then wear something over the top of it so noone can see it

You’re allowed to wear it, you’re just not allowed to think it’s any good.

Oh that's fine then. Phew.

Brynje

Huh?

If you are after a base layer [either merino or Synthetic] try Alpkit.

Thanks all - clear as mud.

I will swing by screwfix in the morning before reverting to Howies.

apologies for the rather graphic description of my morning changing room antics, on rereading I am surprised it didn’t kill the thread as dead as my top

"I’m not actually sure what to wear home now I know I’m not allowed to wear merino anymore."

Can I wear mine but just not tell anyone?

Everybody's metabolism is different.  What suits me won't suit you.  I went for an hour on the road this lunchtime and have been still in my thin merino baselayer and thicker merino jersey for a few hours.  Getting colder.  Just changed into thick cotton T-shirt and wooly top to get warm.  I too find that I get cold quickly in riding gear once I've stopped. Doesn't matter what it's made of.  It has to be a baggy cotton T-shirt under my outer layer for me to be warm.

There's no way of getting rid of sweat in cold weather.  Well, there is.  It's carrying a spare baselayer and changing in the cafe.

I definitely didn't ride home in a long sleeve Merino baselayer. No sir.

avedave2

I use it next to the skin when doing non sweaty stuff. When it’s very cold I use it on the bike over a Brynje base layer which works well as the merino is never in contact with your skin.

That's the set up I use for the likes of the StrathPuffer. Works well, doesn't it? 🙂

When it’s very cold I use it on the bike over a Brynje base layer which works well as the merino is never in contact with your skin.

Merino - the base layer you wear over your base layer .

The last 5 merino items I purchased from Howies have disintegrated, fallen apart at the seams/ discoloured. I wouldn’t trust anything from Howies which is a shame as I used to reall like them.

My long sleeve Howies merino top that is now ten years old is my ‘go to’ item, a bit holey and worn but still the fabric of is holding up. Maybe they changed supplyers.

By the sounds of it I should only be wearing merino in secret now

I love Merino and I am a sweaty bloke. Wear it all the time. Slightly gutted that Embers have gone out of business as their stuff was the best I had. On-One and Lidl/Aldi just is not the same. I also bought some Norwegian brand merino t-shirt from Sportpursuit, but the weave was dreadful and baggy. So on the subject of merino...who makes/sells stuff that is as good as Embers but at none Rapha prices?

In case anyone was worried - I made it home in my rubbish, unsuitable Isobaa merino base layer. I didn't sweat, freeze, overheat or die. Actually, it was really comfortable and just the right temperature under my jacket! I might take the chance and wear it again sometime.

Was it wringing wet when you took it off though?

Wicking means sucking water throughthe fabric, not simply soaking it up.

Yes, but it does it by getting wet, it has to be hydrophilic to wick water, hydrophobic materials won't wick. A wicking fabric effectively increases your skins surface area to get enough evaporation, the same way a candle wick works.

Breathing and wicking are different properties. A hydrophobic base layer is less good at cooling you down as the sweat will stay on your skin, but it will still evaporate and pass through the layer.

A cotton T-shirt will wick sweat, and is breathable for example but it doesn't make a good base layer.

Merino makes a great top, I don't disagree with that. But IME with the right layers it almost doesn't matter his warm/cold it is, I wore the same  hydrophobic base layer and a windstopper top in -11 last month in the snow, and the next week it was +10 and raining and still fine. As long as you get the hydrophobic/philic choice right for the weather it only needs a bit of zip up/down to let your body regulate its own temperature. Merino works too but always seems to need exactly the right layers on top to keep it the right temp as you can't let your body sweat into it and do it automatically.

I heard some interesting stuff on 'Costing the Earth' R4 last night about synthetic garments shedding fibres which then get eaten by fish. Not sure if it actually harms the fish but it goes along with the current concerns about plastics. Merino was suggested as an alternative. Or possibly shooting a beast and wearing the skin....wasn't popular with the vegan lady that one. Actually neither was merino come to that.

Anyway, I've got a Mountain Warehouse one for £25 which I've washed twice in the last year and a Trekmates fusion thing (maybe £13 from Sportpursuit) which I've washed a few more times but has become my default running/riding garment.

Dont have a problem with Merino but for exercise they are far inferior to a number of alternatives. Seemed to be a real "bandwagon"

As a runner I have always worn HH Lifa. Older ones got stinky but new ones dont have that problem. They wick like nothing else I have seen. Merino is warm and comfortable but gets wet and is slower to dry than Lifa.

Love my 'Ground Effect' Submerino base layers in the Winter months

Further update

Acquired a HH baselayer for £15 from Screwfix.

tried it on my commute to work this morning- slightly cold and damp feeling unlike the wet and warm merino top it replaces.

Probably no bad thing as it was warmer today however Previously i wouldn’t have bothered with a mid layer.

any recommendations for an upgrade on the middle layer between base and soft shell?

thanks

Just get a merino 🙂

any recommendations for an upgrade on the middle layer between base and soft shell?

Plain old fleece is the best, and it's cheap.  Get a stretchy form hugging one for cycling.  I have a great Mountain Warehouse one, mesh panel right down the back, zip neck, incredibly comfortable. More of a Roubaix fabric than a fleece though, it's flat faced on the outside.

Were we all sucked in by the marketing hype with merino?

I wouldn't wear it for anything sweaty now.  Just doesn't wick anywhere near as well as synthetics.  Fine for low intensity cold weather activities.

Hiking over 2 days this weekend, very similar weather both days (about 5 degrees C most of time).  I was wearing a HH synthetic one day, and a (admittedly, very slightly heavier weight) Rab MeCo (merino cocona blend) the next.  I got uncomfortable in the merino top where it held moisture underneath my backpack.  It literally looked like someone had thrown a bucket of water over by back.  Ended by taking my outer layer off and wearing the pack on my front (or shouldering) the pack for half hour intervals to try and dry out a bit.  Rest of me got a bit cold, but it was that bad I had to do something.  Day before in otherwise identical gear*, wearing the HH synthetic, worst I got was a slightly clammy back . Performance was night and day really.

* Worth noting I was using a very basic Alpkit Gourdon 20L pack (as I was expecting rain all day) which sits directly on your back.  More elaborate packs with better back systems wouldn't have caused such as issue.

Annoying thing #256 about this place: how thin skinned people are when someone says the base layer/tyres/bike (etc, etc) they happen to own is poor (in their opinion).  MTFU FFS!  If it works for you, keep using it.  Be your own man.  Is the reassurance of others so important?  Do you really need the validation of others?  I don't get being a dick about defending the items you happen to have purchased.

I don't like merino as a base layer.  It doesn't wick well enough for me in a wide enough range of conditions.  I won't buy any more merino tops, but I will be using the ones I already own up when the conditions are suitable.  I don't care if others buy them or use them.  I certainly wouldn't get defensive about preferring/using synthetic layers if someone had the opposing opinion.

I fell for the marketing hype and was jolly glad I did. Especially as that means not listening to twerps on the 'net 😀

I probably don’t get hot enough these days for any of my merino to get really wet, and even when I did, I never felt uncomfortable, I was always warm, plus there’s no odour, unlike the Smelly Helly I own, which is, for me, the biggest advantage of merino. I’ve got two tank tops from a Howies sale, and I wear them right through the winter as a base layer, sadly one of them is really starting to show it’s age, they’re at least fifteen years old! I really need to find something similar, they’re just so nice to wear.

For snowboarding/splitboard touring and winter expeditions etc merino is still may favourite by a long way.

I've worn the same merino layers for 2 weeks on expedition and been pleasantly surprised by the lack of odour.

A number of my merinos are Howies long sleeve tops that are >10 years old and still going strong. Unfortunately some more recent one (yes Ice Breaker ... I'm looking at you) have tended to fall apart, so in my experience, not all merino is equal so it's worth looking out for the quality stuff.

For running and cycling however, (apart from in truly sub-zero conditions) I find merino too hot once I'm moving so I end up over-heating and soggy.

I did not dare revisit this thread after angledust's rant which I think was aimed at (possibly) me.

I wanted to say thanks for the screwfix HH baselayer suggestion and sowing the seed that there are alternatives to Merino.  Yes the HH is cooler but so am I for it i.e. not over heating (rather than being a dude).

Oh and don't worry angledust, I will be buying another Merino Howies top for winter commuting when their sale is on, as like bikes, you can never have too many cycling clothes.

you can never have too many cycling clothes

You can. They fill up the drawers and then you can't close them. Trust me, I know.