[Closed] Mental health - ever feel like you just don't fit your job?

Yes, all the time but Ive recently been successful in getting a new role which is very different.

Have you spoken to your manager about your situation and whether you'd actually broken any rules / policies? People who work in sales can often be arrogant, so you ould probably ignore them. If you have an objective policy to back you up then that would boost your confidence. Have you asked if there's any training you can do? It sounds like a cop-out but there's some pretty useful podcasts on Linkedin learning about communication that are good.

How long hve you been in your role and whereabouts in the hierarchy are you? Does this sort of situation and feeling happen frequently? Are the sales people bullying you?

I've spoken to two managers and a peer and they were all fine, and all gave the same advice, which is fair. But my overriding feeling now is raging against the bollocks of it all. Why can't I just be a techie? I mean I know why, but that's what my inner child is thinking.

I've long asked for techies to be involved in the sales process because sales people don't fully understand the implications of what they're selling - but then again, neither do the decision makers at the customer in many cases! Having said that, perhaps I'm thinking too deeply and everyone should just muddle on?

How long hve you been in your role and whereabouts in the hierarchy are you? Does this sort of situation and feeling happen frequently? Are the sales people bullying you?

Our team is kind of outside the heirarchy, and really there's nothing personal going on - everyone's very supportive and reasonable, really (this is a really good workplace overall), but the idea that I've done something wrong when I put my heart into what I had thought was a really good piece of work, and people aren't pleased with me.

I'm partly wondering if I should change roles but I can't think what else I'd do other than being a plain dev or architect which I would find boring in the long run. With customer problems there's always new stuff to deal with. I thought this role was perfect for me, and this is now the second time I've said the wrong thing to a customer.

IME on the consumer side of things the sales people tend to lie within a fag papers width of what would stand up in court. Once the deals done its often up to the project teams to pull out all the stops to make the solutions work. Seems to be a universal problem and I can see your pain. If a Techy is invovled they're probably naturally cautious as you may expose their lies and threaten their comission on a sale.

Currently there’s an issue where I said something perfectly honest and correct to a customer, but the sales team didn’t like it.

In this case they just said 'Here mol come and fix this technical problem' so I did. No-one gave me any background or told me what the approach was. But I'm supposed to ask and find out for myself. Not having done so or realised I needed to makes me feel like a naieve child.

How did that have a difference on the outcome?

If the task was assined to you in a good manner, then their expectations of how you do the work, which processes you should follow and what boundaries you work within should have been laid out. However this will probably rarely happen. To avoid this happening again then ask for these before emabrking on any work, then if they just tell you to get on with it without that information then they have no comeback on you.

I’m constantly putting my foot in it at work

You're not alone, and TBH, I've come to realisation that I think it's mostly a "British Thing". We (as a nation generally) when it comes to work, are rubbish at telling each other the truth. I don't mean that in a bad way, but having worked alongside folk from other countries, I've realised that they don't (as a general rule) have this same hang-up as we do.

We tend to insist, generally speaking on doing this strange politeness/trying to second guess the motivation/needs/wants of the other person, and framing any response in a way that won't get one fired/in trouble/embarrassed/cost any money/ or make a terrible social faux-pas...and frankly it's both astonishingly tiresome and unproductive, but also navigationally a minefield strewn with unknowable potential upsets.

You can't ever really, under those sorts of circumstances say the right thing.

I can understand where you're coming from. I've spent a fair few years in various customer support roles before moving across to technical pre-sales and now a kind of weird techie business development type role.

A few years ago I worked at a startup where I built and ran the support organisation but interacted heavily with the sales teams. After 15+ years of assuming all sales folks were arseholes with fancy watches I learnt to appreciate the job they do, and helped them understand how hard the support function is.

The first thing I would say is that support and sales are natural enemies and to be successful both sides need to get over the mutual distrust. Some education on both sides can lead to mutual appreciation - fixing stuff is incredibly hard, but so is selling. Techies are logical to the core and can lack the empathy that a customer sometimes needs, sales can be emotional and short sighted.

Do you interact with the same account teams often? If so, it might be worth investing some time in building relationships. If you can both provide candid but constructive feedback, without upsetting each other, you can build some trust and move forwards. You could also work together to plan customer communications to ensure that both sides (support and sales) are aligned and in agreement. This will result in a much better, more consistent, experience for the customer too.

End of the day you both hopefully have the customers' best interests at heart, you just have different ways of achieving a good outcome.

Finally, absolutely do not take any of this personally. As I said above, sales folks can be emotional, and they are also fickle and can be thoughtless. There is almost certainly no malice in whatever they have said/done to make you feel this way, and I'd bet they've already forgotten about it. Techies brood because they are used to analysing and understanding, sales folks just move on because they are used to qualifying opportunities in/out very quickly.

Treat this as you would a technical issue - remove the emotion, follow the breadcrumbs to the root of the problem, and get the help you need to fix it.

folk like you and me Moley need directness and no effing hinting! anyone who can do sales must have a different mindset to that.

People who cannot accept you as yo are and work withing the parameters you need - thats their problem

I did have some things I did to help with that sort of issue. I would routinely tell folk - " I am not sure what you want here - can you tell me again" and then repeat back to them my understanding of what they wanted

to have aspie traits and being empathic ( as I think you are) can get you into terrible misunderstandings 'cos you can only be empathic with people who are honest. sales folk will have a very different brain wiring being used to hiding what they actually think and feel. so you misinterpret them and they misinterpret you

Asking for clarity often helps.

yep....ever since i started working in offices

Do you interact with the same account teams often? If so, it might be worth investing some time in building relationships.

This is another problem. I've always worked at home or at customers, and I have rarely spent much time with anyone else. And in the new role that's hardly anyone at all. And I'm now worldwide so I'm working with sales and customer mangement all over the world. Now even when I work in the same office I have a hard time remembering who everyone is, and now I'm kind of expected to know a load of names (or sometimes even initials!) from an online meeting screen and obscure sounding job titles and remember who everyone is and what they do - when I've never even been told never mind met them. And if I ask they go 'oh you know, Chris, the pre-tech-sales-relationship-account-manager-tech' .. er.. no?

@tjagain I think I am slightly on the spectrum and I have a bit of ADHD but I am pretty high functioning so I can do these things, just not intuitively - I need to be prompted, I think.

Asking for clarity often helps.

Yeah, and I do normally. Just sometimes something comes out of the blue and switches contexts and I'm not prepared.

Finally, absolutely do not take any of this personally.

I can't though. It's my reputation that's being created here and if there's one thing I can't stand it's being mis-represented.

I’ve come to realisation that I think it’s mostly a “British Thing”. We (as a nation generally) when it comes to work, are rubbish at telling each other the truth.

Funnily enough it's MUCH worse with US teams. I think that's part of it, tbh. They are even more terrified of saying anything and they are official whilst pretending to be informal. The sales people were on this call where I put my foot in it and said nothing. They didn't even try to jump in. The Brits I've worked with tend to interject and try to smooth things out.

Been my world for much of the last 10 years, and a new job hasn't changed that, sadly.

Aspie traits similar is IMO a good way to describe it

Yeah, and I do normally. Just sometimes something comes out of the blue and switches contexts and I’m not prepared.

That is not your fault and is their problem.

But yes - I know exactly where you are coming from with that and again my coping mechanism is to be able to apologise gracefully. " sorry - I did not see that coming / did not understand. Can yo please explain to me again in words of one syllable" " or - probably me being daft but thats not what I understood"

make it lighthearted and a joke on me. that is my coping strategy

if its any help I did not come to awareness on this until well into my 50s and I don't think yo are that old yet so yo are well ahead of me on that one 🙂

Imposter syndrome? I keep being told I'm the companies best Sales person. By metrics I am indeed, but I think I just turn uo and do the work I'm supposed to do.

This makes me feel like I’m always doing something wrong, or about to. Coupled with the fact that the salesy/customer relations people have no idea how difficult a tech job is, and they just expect you to solve the problem and have no concept of how much brilliance or otherwise (it goes both ways) it actually takes.

I'm pretty sure a lot of people think that about their jobs, I'd happily convince you that Sales is one of the hardest jobs ever, and thats me coming from 20 years of Consulting background. It helps to walk I someone else's shoes.

Not really looking for advice, just having a moan and see if other people have the same issue or analogous issues. I’m perfectly confident in myself, just not confident in how I interact with others and how other people see me.

...has always been a mystery to me, I'm not sure there's an answer. Other people say to me, your making your numbers and being paid well, what's the problem?

ever feel like you just don’t fit your job?

CONSANTLY.

I'm almost certainly on the wrong side of the same fence you are, I'm the introverted, quietly spoken, can't lie or bend the truth to save my life Guy in IT Sales.

I blame the fact I didn't know what I wanted to do when I grew up until I was about 40, I'm still not completely sure, but it ain't this.

I dream of becoming a Patient Transfer Driver for the NHS, but I've got a greedy family that demand things like food and clothing which make that job's salary incompatible with my levels of indebtedness so I'm retraining, hopefully into a role that isn't so techy I'd actually have to do anything, and not so salesy I'd actually have to talk to new people and pays enough to keep my family in the lifestyle they've come accustom too, with all their eating and clothes wearing.

The other thing that helps me in similar situations is to accept deep down in your heart that some things " just are" and you can do nothing about them

edit - so in the sort of situation yo have had its " there was a miscommunication, it happened, I cannot change it now" and do not dwell on it. Of course reflect " what went wrong, what was my role in the mishap, how can I prevent it happening again" but take the blame and guilt out of that

ever feel like you just don’t fit your job?

Yes, I think that's very relatable. I had a previous "career" direction that at some point I realised was not ever going to make me happy - just more promotion to do more of the same stuff I didn't like or really feel part of (and I wasn't bad at it). Went back to university part time whilst working, got lucky with a job that allowed me to change, now (although work can have crap days) I never feel like that. Perhaps taking control of the change was as much a part of the psychological boost as the actual change, I'm not sure.

I’m constantly putting my foot in it at work

If that's real, rather than just your worry or perception, then possibly do take some steps to work on not doing it. It's kind of annoying to have a group of people working really hard - and it is possible your colleagues are, including long hours and lots of effort - just to watch someone sail in and undo things, even if it's unintentional.

Edit: this might be why they seem annoyed. You're not asking for solutions, but if you don't think you can fix it, things might just continue to be really frustrating!

It’s kind of annoying to have a group of people working really hard – and it is possible your colleagues are, including long hours and lots of effort – just to watch someone sail in and undo things

Of course it is, but similarly don't work long hours on a strategy that's so weak that one honest opinion will bring it down.

Anyway, turns out the situation is a bit more complex. The question from the customer individual about the project actually didn't reflect the wider deal we have with the customer, and the big deal actually closed. I was told that the big deal was riding on the work I had to do, so I'm not sure if it's a win for me because the deal closed or if it's a fail because I pissed everyone off 😆

neither - you did your job to the best of your ability and if you did not have allthe info you needed thats probaly not your fault

Well ookay, I'd be pretty surprised if I went to a bike show and someone working at the Orange stand went off about single pivot being rubbish and how they much preferred VPP, but the rest of the Orange team hadn't thought it through. I'd think "why work for Orange"? It seems likely that your example isn't so radical or divisive, though 😉

There was a piece on the BBC I saw yesterday about workplace boreout, and I thought that it described my current position perfectly.

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20210701-the-damaging-effects-of-boreout-at-work

I do. It's in part due to some cognitive distortions. I tend to see everything as an all or nothing type situation. So, similarly to your situation if I do something that is incorrect I go into the whole "I can't do this role I need to have something else" mindset. It's pretty exhausting to be honest, but I'm trying to work through it. I have gone the other way (sort of) from sales into technical training. And I miss the comfortable understanding I had for sales, compared to having to learn so much technical information.

Well ookay, I’d be pretty surprised if I went to a bike show and someone working at the Orange stand went off about single pivot being rubbish and how they much preferred VPP, but the rest of the Orange team hadn’t thought it through.

Hehe.

It'd be more like

- Ah, you want the steel MTB with the Rohloff and belt drive, great choice. Sign here please
.. few weeks later..
- This bike you sold me is rubbish, the belt keeps snapping
- Let me take a look - ah yes this is because you weigh 300kg sir and ride through crushed glass all the time. May I suggest a chain drive instead?
- But the only reason I bought the bike was because it had a belt drive. I would have gone with a carbon bike otherwise. Why don't I just use a carbon bike?
- Er I don't know, sir, you can if you want.

Boss: Shut up, we are trying to sell steel bikes here!

Why don’t I just use a carbon bike?
– Er I don’t know, sir, you can if you want.

Ahh yeah, see your point.

I believe the approved answer is to keep shouting "SteeL iS ReaL" whilst pouring beard oil over yourself while hip thrusting to show your single speed strength?

But then, I'm not in marketing. Maybe I should be!

Sorry Moley but that last post of yours made me laugh

Its your bosses fault! Every knows IT nerds have zero social skills or subtlety. He should have kept you well away 🙂

workplace boreout

Oh gosh, although I didn't know what it was I was talking about this today - in the manner of wanting to do something more meanful, exciting and fulfilling than repetitively selling licenses, like finding a smaller UK/European company and mentoring a recently formed Junior Sales team to help achieve defined growth or expansion, market position and success sort of thing.

Not helped by having two very quiet days...

Funnily enough it’s MUCH worse with US teams. I think that’s part of it, tbh. They are even more terrified of saying anything and they are official whilst pretending to be informal. The sales people were on this call where I put my foot in it and said nothing. They didn’t even try to jump in. The Brits I’ve worked with tend to interject and try to smooth things out.

Not in our US company, you must have some benign Americans. To be fair they seem to do it with a look rather than direct speech but its there.

Don't beat yourself up about this molgrips. seriously its just a muck up in which you played a part. Others did too and you were pout in a situation yo were not prepared for

Reflect on it yes but do not blame yourself.

As a techy manager I feel your pain, after long hours last week trying to define a customer issue and part of the weekend (issues with equipment my team didn't spec or build) and spending a lot of time on the phone with a senior member of the customers team I missed a meeting today arranged by account management (internal sales) to discuss the issue (I told them I couldn't attend) and seem to have ended up with all the daft finger in the air actions they dreamt up which probably won't work but will piss the customer off even more. Anyway after being with a supplier all day(fixing other he by issues sales get uppity about) I fired off a response this evening, answering the questions I could, and pointing out that despite the hours I've put into this already I'd didn't have the answers of expertise and others who attended the meeting did. Anyway just had a meeting request from the sales director to discuss this in the morning, luckily she is very good and at the moment I'm anticipating being backed up, especially as I'm on site with her later (5 hour round trip) to try and sort out a particularly demanding customer. Not all sales people are bad but many make a point of not learning the product and seem to be able weapons plausible deniability, the old what am I supposed to say to customer routine. My response is I don't know, that's why I'm not customer facing and perhaps if you expanded your knowledge a bit the customer wouldnt be able to run rings around you!

Anyway back to the OP, fully agree, my approach is usually honesty and realism, generally makes you very unpopular with the commission driven types.

The toughest job by far is new business sales and/or development- hence commission levels/rewards.

I have done all the roles from pure enginner/tech, pre sales, account management, new business sales.

I will be blunt anything "below" new business sales is a doddle.

I understand that techs often get left with the fallout but compared to cold calls/knocking on doors....

I saw this saying on a card once and has helped me in many a similar situation.

"Don't worry about what other people think of you.

They're too busy worrying about what you think of them"

Could apply here. On Golftrackworld there's a sales rep starting a thread along the lines of "A techy guy did totally the right thing by the customer but we made them a shitty promise in the tendering stage and I feel awful for the techy guy getting it in the neck. Am I a bad person?"

Or something.

Well it's probably not much help Molly but you made me feel so much better. It’s not so much I don't fit in at work as they seem terrified if I'm not there.
My direct manager, GM of the site calls everyone together to discuss what contingency they have when I'm away!
It’s hilarious as I sometimes feel I should ask for more money, but TBH I'm well paid IMO. I guess it’s as I'm near retirement and have pretty good financial security the thought of what people think of me is no real issue. But in 26 years at this site I have got on with everyone and trusts my judgement.
What I think you need to do is, If you’re in the right "Stand up for yourself"

I like to foster a reputation as a bit of a loose cannon so I don't get invited to all the really awkward meetings with Sales and clients 😉

Reflect on it yes but do not blame yourself.

Thanks TJ but I actually don't, I'm more worried about my profile in the company and yes, my prospect of pay rises and promotion. It's because of stuff like this that 2/3 of the time seem to get looked down on or considered the annoyance, because I just don't see things the same way as the majority of people.

In my current role I should be able to show off my real skills in sorting things out, but the issue is that whatever I sort out *someone* else out there would have known the problem immediately without having to figure it out. So for example if I spend a week figuring out the problem with product A and being brilliantly ingenious, there are a dozen people out there who have been working with product A for ten years and have come across this before so would have known straight away. And this is the case for everything. Now, these people only know product A and maybe B, whereas I've been doing this for so long I know products A to at least M and because of this I have a really wide viewpoint and deep understanding of loads of concepts. But none of that matters when you have a problem with product A and you need an expert in product A.

So I need people to think of me as brilliant because I want them to give me more money, but they often just think of me as the annoying nerd. Even though I've understood the technical aspect, our company's position, the sales team's position, why the sales team are in the position, the customer's position, the customers' techies' position, and all the rest of it as well as the technical issues.

On the original call that triggered this, the question was 'well why do we need product X can't we just use Y instead?'. My team leader said I should have said 'I'll get back to you on that'. But that's absurd, I'd have been laughed at. He says stuff like that in meetings, and I think that sounds weak, but no-one else seems bothered by this - somehow the customers are usually not that sharp either. But this customer was as sharp as a pin.

Sometimes I feel like an idiot, and other times I feel like I'm too clever for everyone else to understand. And often at the same time.

I like to foster a reputation as a bit of a loose cannon so I don’t get invited to all the really awkward meetings with Sales and clients

An excellent tactic I hadn't thought of 🙂

The difference between reality and what is promised to customers is a very tricky one. Even for internal work it gets messy and a good manager will know to hide those people who cant really handle embellishing things away from those who are more comfortable doing so.
Its a very hard problem to bridge. Currently I am getting a not bad wage but I know moving beyond my position is liable to hit a brick wall since I find it difficult not to give my professional recommendation whether or not that suits our sales targets.
That said I do normally try to give people a graceful backdown. If you make someone look an idiot in front of everyone else its a)normally unfair to them and b)makes them a permanent enemy and c)might derail the conversation.
The "That might not work I will need to discuss it with x" or alternatively messaging the person making the moronic statement privately and saying "it wont work because of x" works best in my opinion. I will try to avoid slapping someone down in public unless they ignore my subtle hints.

The other thing you list is asking for advice from someone who has been working with product x. This is something I am truly crap at. I like problem solving so rather than simply go to an expert if I have the time I will play around and figure it out. Its just as much a flaw as not bothering to think for yourself and asking for help immediately. There needs to be a balance between the two but as above I dont normally get it right.

Thanks TJ but I actually don’t, I’m more worried about my profile in the company and yes, my prospect of pay rises and promotion.

Be aware of "the peter principle" - being promoted beyond your competence. I did it and took on senior roles I was not suited for and it made me very unhappy. I am good on the "shop floor" I am a decent second in command. I'm a crap boss. going back to the shop floor made me much happier. Promotion and kudos is not always needed. Happiness is worth a lot more than promotion!

My last few years were my best at work. Most experienced man on the shop floor, the go to guy for solutions and training, able to pass the buck on difficult decisions and no staff management. at one time I had 130 staff reporting to me. I hated it

My team leader said I should have said ‘I’ll get back to you on that’

My reading is you said the wrong thing at a meeting, by being honest and helpful to the customer but the wrong thing by the sales team.

You didn't know what ever it was the sales team wanted and you were asked, not your fault, move on, maybe you clue up on whatever strategy the sales team wants if you are to work in their zone, or maybe you are new and not expected to say anything significant to customers, hard to tell which.

Sorry if this sounds hard.

In my opinion there’s two issues here; you’re a Jack of all trades and a master of none, no one like someone who says they can do someone else’s job, but actually can’t do it as expert as they can, but these people often become an overflow resource for management. IMHO, if you want to be paid more you need to gain the authority to use your knowledge to advise and direct others, then keep the trust at a level to allow expert level people to do the job properly without interferance.

Second, Sales. What is unique in this scenario is that a technical issue can directly affect a Salespersons salary by affecting the company’s reputation and a customers confidence to buy. Where you get out of bed still on a regular salary when the solution goes wrong, I might lose a sale and my salary Is directly affected. Salespeople then, are sensitive to that. And I ask people not jump on the Rolex / Flashy car BS, the majority of salespeople struggle to earn their full annual and “at risk” salary to support their mortgages and families, accelerators and reward weekends away for over achievers are exceptions rather than the norm for the majority.

In addition, Sales people will often have other agendas, nuances and meeting strategies in a meeting to direct a client to a sale, for the above reasons they will not want to you to **** up the meeting. However in my view as a senior salesperson, that’s my job to have communicated that with you beforehand and to ensure the meeting is directed toward achieving a sale, with any issues discussed offline without the client.

So op, I don’t think it’s “you”, I think is a combination of agendas which aren’t understood by all coming to a head, and it needs a bit of direction for everybody involved to sort out.

Yeah I do think there has been a failure of communication on several fronts, partially mine.

Thanks for chipping in, everyone. I'm feeling a lot less despondent now, knowing the deal did go through and that perhaps it was over inflated by my team lead who called me first on Friday. Still annoyed that my good work was occluded though but that's how it is being a techie.

Reading through this has only reinforced how glad I am that I’ve always avoided being promoted into any sort of position that would have led to this sort of issue arising. I know my limitations, and I’ve been pretty lucky to have gone through life doing a good job that’s been appreciated by those I worked for. Apart from one job, where micromanaging by new owners, led to a lot of stress, worry about my mental health, and me being booted out and a bunch of other people leaving at around the same time. Best thing that could have happened as it turned out, I couldn’t be working for a better company than the one I’m at now. Good luck, Mol, hope everything sorts itself out to everyone’s satisfaction.

My job...? Nah I definitely landed on my feet with that one... I am the odd shaped peg for the equally odd shaped hole. Love my job, work with some great guys, and I get to talk about a topic I love for a living! Fantastic!!!

Life however... That's ****ing tough! I'm gonna make no bones about this, but I've questioned endlessly just if it could be possible to be more of a misfit and what does it all mean, and why do I exist if not to provide those who fit in somebody to point and laugh at from time to time... 🤷🏻‍♂️

Mental health is a shitter! Thank god I have a great job, a GF who loves me, bikes and some semblance of health and financial stability (though both tenuously at best)... 👍🏻

Once. 30 years ago now. Tried to make it work. Found I’d not want to get up on a morning after a few months. Odd as it was a job I’d really enjoyed at another place previously. Seems it was a combination of the system, the staff, the culture, and me. Since other folks seemed to get by I figured it was the combination of me with those other things that wasn’t right.
decided I needed a change. One turned up, maybe I was already primed to spot it. Took the change. Didn’t look back. Took a few more changes since and better each time.

I started a new job in April (end of). I constantly feel like something/many things about it aren't right. A lot of the people I interact with are great, but a lot of the senior people are not. It leads to me complaining about people when I know I shouldn't and it's not professional, but we are talking about someone who wants to challenge all dev estimates despite being a CIO, he thinks he knows better, all the time.

I am trying to work out how to explain this to them and to other employers as I am slowly interviewing elsewhere, the problem I am coming to is this seems a common situation, am I likely to move to meet with exactly the same problems?

I was in a small, high-performing team about ten years ago that was analysed by the Human Remains team to find out what our secret sauce was.

The consultants who came in found a bunch of stuff that shut down the project pretty quickly, namely that we were all doing multiple 'jobs' outside our actual roles, and were all 'emulating' - ie doing stuff that didn't necessarily come easily to us. Emulation (much like HW or SW emulation if we're talking computery stuff) isn't easy and takes lots of resources. The consultants said we were all borderline nervous breakdown cases because we were doing stuff that didn't come naturally and therefore was exhausting. HR noped away from dealing with that. 😀

In the context of what you're doing, Molgrips, that's trying to do salesy or customer relationship-type things when you're good at concentrating, burrowing into technical detail and fixing stuff. It's inherently tiring, stressful and time-consuming for you because it doesn't come naturally. Again, don't get down because you're not necessarily automatically good at all the things. It's not how humans are, and it's totally fine to be good at something and not at something else.

The situation you describe suggests that a sales person was less than honest with a customer. They can't expect you to automatically be dishonest.