Mental Fatigue

I know it’s a simplistic response but it sounds like the new job isn’t for you. And it’s bloody hard to sell a product you don’t believe in.

I’d be looking for something else - sometimes you  just take a wrong move and have to accept it’s not working out.

If you have only the one child and he is away, make the most of the break. Do nothing, be lazy and have a proper break from the relentlessness of parenthood to try and reset yourself.

You could be languishing?

https://theconversation.com/languishing-what-to-do-if-youre-feeling-restless-apathetic-or-empty-174994

Please do not take this the wrong way.  Its meant to be helpful

Over the years I have seen a number of similar posts from you.  There seems to me to be a deep rooted dissatisfaction / unhappiness with your life.  Its really not uncommon in middleaged men ( I think you are ???)  where you have achieved what you thought you wanted and are still not happy.  there may be an element of depression as well - sleep disorder is a key sign

I would go for some person centered counseling to explore why you feel like this and to help you find solutions.  Its a very different thing to CBT and mindfulness / self help

If your leg was broken you would go the the leg doctor.  So if your heads broken go to the head doctor.  There is no shame in doing so.  Many of us will have mental issues in our lives.  I have had counseling a number of times and am booked in for more.

As ever - the relationship between the counselor and the counselee is the key thing.  Be prepared to shop around to find someone who works for you.

OP,

I assume when you said you are practicing Mindfulness, you are also referring to or doing meditation? If you do, you need to stop the meditation immediately because you might be entering a stage known as kundalini "awakening" or crisis or syndrome or "spiritual crisis".  This is usually associated with lack of oxygen reaching the brain (something like that) during the meditation i.e. forgot to breathe properly, as a result it affects your brain functions or may even make you hallucinate.

Go get fresh air and exercise by emptying your mind or simply not think of anything.

Now also by my own choice I moved to Sales Management in 2022 specifically with a view to starting a new line of (software) business.

If you can move away from Sales it might reduce your pressure.  Sales is high pressure cooker and unless it is your own business you have no choice but if not you will be constantly worried about meeting the sales target.  If you meet the target you are king otherwise you might be on your way out.

I was about to write exactly what TJ said, i think we get more of your personality from your posts than you realise. You come across as a highly strung high achiever who over thinks things. It's not a criticism and I see parallels in me, for the first time in a long time despite working at a senior level I have a really supportive boss and other members of the senior management team. I'm still stressed but it's me putting too high expectations on myself which then causes more stress.

I don't know what the answer is but understanding how much of the situation is controlled and created by you and what drives you is a first step.

You need to let go a bit (easily said) but worrying about your son going to Japan and checking flightradar isnt normal behaviour, theres nothing you can do if the flight goes wrong which is highly unlikely.

It might be the job is too much but if you are as highly driven as I suspect you are taking a less stressful job probably isn't the answer as you'll still make it stressful and what you do for a living is a defining part of who you are.

TJ is right, some proper help is what's needed, its not to cure you, its to help you deal with who you are.

Maybe I should go and take my own advice but I probably wont 😁

Ok, thanks for the response and forgive me if I miss things, I'm really struggling with detail / attention currently to the point I often give up responding to threads of late because I can't keep up.

I don't think its only the job, FWIW I think the software is one of if not the best in the market, but I'm entering into a new market of long term contracts with 4-5 trusted competitors.  Its hard to win business, which I am but its slow, which causes frustration in my management because the investment is slow to return.   I am close - 22 months - away from clearing the mortgage so yes I have thought of moving away into something else.

You come across as a highly strung high achiever who over thinks things

Thats very accurate, no criticism taken, and two children, we've had an emotional morning with Big Brother gone.

deep rooted dissatisfaction / unhappiness with your life

No offence at all TJ your post is very helpful thanks, and you are correct.  Over the Christmas period I took steps to address this, asking myself why and thinking this is the course of my tiredness, having caught up with my age - nearly 51 - I'm clearly not coping.     I asked myself why I'm driven, why I can't stop and - as stumpyjon correctly identifies - even if I changed roles I'd make a stress out of the new one - I often envy people that survive by not caring two hoots about work.   I read self help books, thought about prior and current characteristics and though I had it nailed down to "admiration".   This is because I had an uncomfortable relationship with parents and sibling of which there is none, and - a lot of what I do and have posted on here such as prior materialism, bike racing events the odd "look at me" post - I feel may be asking for some kind of admiration, but to the point that if I do achieve something "good", its not good enough - and so the cycle continues.

TJ thanks.  I did go through NHS CBT for fear of flying some years back and it worked then, but the problem is re-occuring.  I tried private CBT but didnt click with the councillor.   Recently I re-tried the NHS route and was surprised to be accepted for a 6 week CBT reminder following by 12 weeks of person led counselling as you've suggested - this starts April.

On the admiration front I think I am coming to a point where I don't care any more, but it is fraught with alarm bells because its foreign to me, and thats one of the the reasons I think I'm so tired, I think I'm fighting myself constantly.   I read Stephen Bartlett's argument for happiness (fulfilment) - that we often fixate on something far away or that can't be achieved - rather than smaller "in the moment" opportunities and this can be an issue.  I think I did this, having a dream of early retirement led happiness knocked out of me recently has troubled me because I feel I'm 17 not 9 years away from happiness, 17 years of drudgery.  I'm trying to find happy moments daily, but its hard.

I'm a bit stuck for words and fear I am rambling, I'm going to read ElShalimo's languishing link before popping back.

Edit - somehow I think this is important:

its not to cure you, its to help you deal with who you are.

I think re the self help books, YouTube videos etc I've put extra pressure trying to do the former - fix myself - and not achieving the latter.  And I'm not getting fixed, which again turns into a spiral of negativity / fatigue.

Sound advice from TJ. I would just add a couple of very simple things which could have a very significant effect imo, and quite quickly.

Firstly if you drink alcohol then don't - just cut out alcohol from your life. The benefits will include better moods and better quality sleep. Obviously caffeine needs to be kept to a minimum and ideally not beyond mid-afternoon.

And secondly ride your bike and/or go hiking and/or other outdoor pursuits. Don't do it on your own commit yourself to a club and/or friends. Avoid procrastination.

Aim for an element of challenge, eg hikes that include some hills rather than just a stroll in the park - occasional breathlessness.

And try to connect with the outdoor environment - eg  walk aware of your surroundings looking up, not down at the ground.

Do that and expect to experience enhanced moods and enhanced sleep, and quite quickly.  But also take TJ's sound advice.

To use an analogy that might work for you, does your performance on a bike improve more if you read books about training or get weekly 1:1 coaching sessions?

Self help books won't work in the same way as a counselor. If you can afford it then find a private counsellor rather than going through the NHS - and I mean a proper person centred counsellor rather than cbt. I've been through counselling, cbt, group therapy and mindfulness - they all have their place.  (private because it frees up capacity in an already stretched NHS mental health service, you get more flexibility over the counsellor you work with and you can keep going for more than 12 weeks because that's not really very much time to explore this sort of thing)

When you suss it out let me know, you're not alone, we're very similar, I'm nearly 52 and feel similar, can go through weeks of being overwhelmed and demotivator followed by periods of being quite up. Also got 2 years left on the mortage! I had a full on breakdown a few years ago that was directly related to appalling management. I have realised since its also me, but thats who i am, its a weakness but also defines me and on many levels I'm proud of who and what I am. I'd love to be one of those people who doesn't care but I'm not.

Edit good advice from Ernie as well particularly about the alcohol. That's one vice I don't have, usually well under 14 units a week but do like the warm feeling a bottle of red can imbue, I can see how it becomes a habit.

Thanks the purist that of course makes much sense.

Ernie, I don’t drink much although a desire to enjoy the Christmas period got a bit much. I completed dry January, and had 2 beers on the 2nd Feb which gave me a massive hangover.  On the one hand it’s made me feel like I don’t was to drink again, on the other it feels like giving up the one bit of enjoyment I have - I don’t drink around my bike training which leaves 1 day a week so I enjoy a couple of good rums or whiskies at that time

I do think that Walking is a good idea.  I tend to work from home with mostly 10-12hrs in front of a laptop.

Edit good advice from Ernie as well particularly about the alcohol. That’s one vice I don’t have, usually well under 14 units a week

I'm not sure if you're trying to be deliberately ironic.

14 is now considered the limit per week

https://www.nhs.uk/better-health/drink-less/

Like road speeds, it's a limit, not a target 😂

12hr days seems excessive.

if I can’t sleep, I don’t keep trying and get frustrated. I get up and do something else for a bit.

I can really relate to a lot of what you put (although sleeping isn’t too bad apart from occasional bad night).

i got some nice tips and hints on this post https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/what-little-things-do-you-do-to-make-daily-life-a-little-bit-more-enjoyable/

might help if you haven’t seen it.

good luck

Others here have already given some good advice, but I'd like to add to the mix that you ask about 'worry management' alongside/instead of the CBT. As soon as you mentioned the Japan trip I thought 'Kryton was worrying about that ages ago!', and lots of the other things you say remind me of some of the things I do/have done. I'd had CBT before, but got put into/recommended to have a worry management scheme last year, instead of the CBT. I felt a bit like 'yeah yeah, I know the theory about what I'm supposed to do, but somehow I can't trick my brain into doing it'. But somewhere in there I had a sort of epiphany - that other people don't think like me.

I thought it was totally normal and sensible to think through all the what ifs and what mights, and plan for them, and avoid the risks materialising. It's probably what makes me really good at managing complex projects. But in daily life it's just exhausting. It means you never look forward to anything, because you're planning for the what ifs. You can't be happy in the now, because you're already thinking about what comes next, or next after that. Worrying about things that might be (but in most instances won't be). And when you do it a lot, it becomes totally normalised. You think that if you don't plan just in case thing A happens, then you'll be unprepared and disaster will surely come of it. But, if thing A doesn't happen, you've just wasted a whole pile of energy fretting about it and mitigating for it. Whereas the person who didn't do anything just got on with living - and if thing A had happened, well, they'd have dealt with it then, if they needed to, because there are always some surprises in life. But they're not worn down and exhausted by also worrying about possible things B-Z too, so they've got plenty of energy to deal with thing A. For me, it then turned into Automatic Negative Thoughts - a perpetual state of glass half empty.

Getting my head round the idea that not planning and worrying could actually be a normal and responsible state to be in took some doing. Worry management gives you tools to help spot when you're fretting about things that actually you should just move past, and deal with if you have to, later. It illustrated to me that behaviours that I thought were keeping me safe, were actually making me ill, and the ANTs were leading me downwards.

This might not apply to you, but maybe someone else will read this and find it helpful.

This is a good listen on related matters: https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/a-better-way-to-worry/

Following with interest as I'm in a very similar situation.  Completely wiped out mentally and struggling to see a way out right now.  Have been for nearly two years now.  That's on the back of a three year period of getting my life back together after a mental breakdown only for the pandemic to hit just as I was getting back on track.

All I can say is take each day individually and try to focus on things you can control, everything else will happen regardless of what you do to change things so don't waste your energy on them.

how about quit your job, move north, have a cheaper existence, be mortgage free, be around the hills, have some space to breathe, do a job job that requires "perfection" known plenty move and do jobs such as driving instructor, maybe work outdoors, whats keeping you down south? those of us already "northern" don't have the choice

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…I’m tired.   Like properly mentally exhausted.  I’m finding I might decide to give up on everything – work, hobbies whatever, I start and then find I just want to go away and sleep for a few days.   Which is where I am now, I’ve started this and… what?

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oh I hear this, but then you beat yourself up for doing nothing and sleeping, you talk with friends, they say have a day off, but a day off (like a complete one) scares you, imagine the boredom!

I live on my own, I have *checks notes* 5 kids, mid MSc, so I have stuff to do, my house is a hive of activity 3/4 nights a week, absolute chaos, and sometimes in the moment I hate it, and crave the silence, but it's worse when it's quiet

I don't know your personal details, is there more than 1 Kryton Jr? are you worried about an empty nest, 16/18/21 years of having something to talk to the mrs about,

Can't believe no-one has said Coke & Hookers yet

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Can’t believe no-one has said Coke & Hookers yet

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someone jumped in with the STW equivalent of stopping drinking

Sorry to hear that you are feeling like this. I too over think things.

A few questions. Do you you need to work at home? Do you get a decent lunch break? Could you occasionally go out for lunch (proper sit down in a cafe with a friend/colleague; I try to do this at least once a month)?

I try to break my working day up by doing stuff at lunch. I went bird spotting today at the local river and gave my mum a ring. Tomorrow during lunch I'm going to play tennis against the wall at work for 15 minutes. Get away from your computer if you can and try to get some fresh air.

Your biking/racing seems very important to you. Have you got any other hobbies/ likes? Can you put less pressure on the yourself about racing & training? As the others have said I think walking and counseling may help.

Keep us posted. Will

I was feeling like the OP a week or so ago: I'd got a couple of deadlines, nothing major, but they were praying on my mind. As soon as they were over I've slept like a log.

I'm retired so not really relevant but I spent many years in new business IT sales in a shrinking market (unless you were SAP) so I recognise the feeling.

2 things to throw in the pot.  When people say they want to do something completely different, what they really want is something completely the same, except with a bit less of the bad stuff and a bit more of the nice stuff.  Also, when used to worry at 3am I asked myself "is this going to be a problem in 12 months time?" No, of course not.  So if it's not going to be a problem then, there's nothing to worry about now.

When I embark on something I don't know how to do, I just get started, confident that my experience means that I'm going in the right direction and by the time I've got to the first decision point, the right decision will present itself.  Not quite as thrilling as Luke Rheinhart "the Dice Man" but fun and fulfilling as well as anxiety relieving.

There are a few things that are out of your control: the software you sell, the people making decisions about whether to buy it, the people making decisions about you, the pilot flying the jet your son is in.... . These are worries you can't do anything about. So not worth worrying about.

Then there are the things you have more influence over: your home life which is at present mainly Mrs K, how you spend/share your free time, how you interact with those around you. You should have a good idea of what these people hope from you and it's worth worrying about in the sense of thinking through in order to get right.

In neither environment can you control everything happening,  so put your mental energy into the things you can do  that will be appreciated rather than taken for granted. You'll get more positive feedback.

Good luck with it all, it doesn't sound like a good time for anything rash which would add even more stress - because the word stress is notable for it's absence in the thread. Stress there is, see if you can relieve some of it.

Think long term when you're coping with the short term.

You feel how you feel and nobody should be allowed to minimise that

You can minimise the diversity of issues by avoiding news reporting and social media, much of which seems to be sensationalist click-bait, apart from STW of course 🙂 Take support from people close to you

CBT is a sticking-plaster but counselling can be the cure. We're able to access the talking therapies online more easily now so you're no longer trapped in "London-pricing", have a look on a professional register like the National Counselling Society or the BACP

I see elements of my wife in you OP.

She needs stress and continually striving in her life, if she didn’t have it, she would struggle with life.

She has recently seen someone from this group. She knows the founder of the organisation who is incredibly well respected world wide.

https://chimpmanagement.com

and two children, we’ve had an emotional morning with Big Brother gone.

Do you think at times you bring that upon the kids yourself ? Maybe if you could cope better then they'd cope better etc ? Whilst i understand one of the kids has gone away, he's not gone to prison or to be shot, he's gone for a jolly... Surely that's a good thing ?

I do think that Walking is a good idea. I tend to work from home with mostly 10-12hrs in front of a laptop.

My boss would get sacked if I did that.

And there's a very good chance that 50% of those hours are spent doing junk work.

Like junk miles, but no fresh air...

Thanks for the comments, there's a lot to unpack, not least the thinking I've been doing since I wrote the OP.

Weeksy, extending my families emotions to basically "its all my fault" isn't helpful.   I don't think a Dad, Mum and 10yo daughter having a few emotions when their son/big brother leaves for the first time for an extended journey is a problem.

The lunch break thing is a good idea.  I do have the occasional break which essentially consists of eating a sandwich downstairs whilst watching the clock to get back to the office upstairs.  I need to have lunch elsewhere / go for a walk, just do something different.

I do need a bit of stress & a targeted approach to work and life.   I work much better when I have that an if not I got bored, grumpy and feel unproductive.   I can't stand being bored.   But perhaps what I am getting from this is two things (I read more of Stephen Bartletts book last night):  As above, I'm possible trying to myself in one of those social media promoted boxes of how I should be, showing "passion" and "why" and so on instead of just being me.   But also at 51, maybe I've reached the pinnacle of my competence/drive; maybe its ok not to be all consumed about the company I work for, the role or output I provide.   I achieved my first confirmation of a purchase order for the new business and the response was "Meh" which disappointed me.  I know why, because it wasn't big, didnt solve any company problems, won't stretch the quarters targets so who cares?  If so then, why should I care?   I've done what I was asked and need to move on to the next one - therefore I expected too much of a fanfare and should have lowered my expectations.  Just turn up, do and leave.   The originally agreement of this role is that I'd grow and manage a team as the volume of orders increases, but actually I think maybe I'm better of as an individual and experienced sales person, a gun for hire or whatever lending my experience to paying the bills and saving for the future.  I'm perhaps not one of this people that wants or will have " a job that I love", and thats OK.

Hannah, thanks for your post.  We have a lot of paralells and touching on the above I think you are right in that yeah, I don't match the normal way of thinking.  Diagnosed as "...a perfectionist who is intolerance of uncertainty..." those What If's plague me daily.   A night out with friends for me is perfectly planned, I know where I'm going, what time, which trains etc a few days before it occurs.  I'll then clock watch for the train I planned for all night.  I don't do "spur of the moment" well at all and this = "a perpetual state of glass half empty" is definitely me.  What if the Train doesn't run, What If they order another round near the time I want to leave, etc..  Thanks for the link.

I think I need to use a lot of the above techniques to live more day to day, lower expectations, stop creating pivotal moments that are important for me not others as a measure of my achievement.  I need to live a bit more in infinite father than finite time, enjoying the happiness I can find today rather than aiming and waiting for a point in time to achieve it.  I'm a person that does work, not Simon Sinek.  I'm a person that enter bike races, not Nino Schurter.  Got to stop boxing myself into or striving for something I'm not.

On the plus side Jnr arrived in Tokyo OK and we have some great pics via the School Trip WhatsApp of today's visit to a ancient Japanese Temple, albeit he left his data roaming on so has consumed the £15 emergency fund I place on his plan within about 90 minutes of arrival.  Kids eh.

But perhaps what I am getting from this is two things (I read more of Stephen Bartletts book last night)

Have a watch of this interview with Stephen Bartlett. Completely hits the nail on the head

How To Take Full Control Of Your Mind: Prof. Steve Peters, The Chimp Paradox | E96 - YouTube

Weeksy, extending my families emotions to basically “its all my fault” isn’t helpful.   I don’t think a Dad, Mum and 10yo daughter having a few emotions when their son/big brother leaves for the first time for an extended journey is a problem.

You asked for some thoughts... i gave some... Apologies, i didn't mean to offend. Either i was wrong or you've taken it completley the wrong way... i'm not sure... but it wasn't deliberately nasty in any way.

I can’t stand being bored.

What do you mean by this, exactly?  No-one likes being bored, but people have different approaches to having no-one giving them things to do.  My mind is always wandering onto something else, which is great when I have free time, but not so much when I need to do my job.

What about the traditional question - what would you do @kryton57 if you won the lottery?  Answer for day 1, day 7, day 30 and day 365?

Weeksy,

but it wasn’t deliberately nasty in any way.

I know that, I didn’t take offence.

Molgrips, I can’t even contemplate those questions right now. I’m not sure of the point of doing so, it isn’t the case so why?

If you've got the money in the bank then a career break/sabbatical is the way to go

I've had periods in life where i have been similar in some ways, and found it difficult to switch off from work and worrying about Type 1 daughter, mixed with periods of poor sleep (especially with daughter going through puberty and blood glucose swinging all over).

I also either work from home for 10 hours of have long commute to office.

Few little things that have helped me.

Reading a book not watching TV in last 45 mins before bed, to the point i feel ready to put it down and sleep.

Listening to podcasts quietly to go to sleep, ones that are purely spoken word, and calming, so history ones like We Have ways of making you talk or science based ones for me, they allow my mind to just zone in on one thing and stop mind racing.

I have also set up a bit of a gym in the garage, and have a split routine, i go out at lunch at do 30-40 minutes of either yoga or body weight exercises (both using Wahoo SYSTM), and then after work, a good turbo trainer session, i find being physically tired helps me calm the mental side, it gives me a break from work and a good dose of endorphins.

Having a group of mates to go riding with one evening a week and at weekend, i do genuinely believe that the mix of getting some fresh air, exercise and just talking to others about something else other than work, and maybe even having a bit of a moan to each other is one of the best forms of counselling - to the point where one friend has said " i think riding with you guys has saved me recently", it was the way he just came out with it and it made us all think consciously about what we had as a group of friends.

Finally, now the days are drawing out, get outside, even if it just a 15 minute walk or a potter in the garden, buy a greenhouse, grow some stuff.. again it just allows your brain to take a step back.

I know i am probably just stating the bleeding obvious.... but it all little things that have made me a nicer person to be around in last few years.

I went through a mental health “situation” over Christmas. I’m dealing with it now, on meds and CBT booked.

I feel like I’m just beginning the journey. I faced up to the fact I have mental health issues (anxiety and depression), which was the major win for me. It's way more common thatn you'd think.

A couple of things that have helped;
Quit the news. It’s mostly just vying for your attention, and it’s not doing you any favours. Clickbait, fear, and scary stories. Where’s the good stuff eh!!!? I have very little idea what’s going on in the wider world, and I don’t care anymore – tell me I should.

Quit the booze, we don’t need it. It’s just societal norm. It’s weird really when you think about it. The cons greatly outweigh the pros.

Try and live in the moment. I find this hard; I am a massive worrier too (3am awake etc). BUT I have been achieving it here and there, having a word with myself, and realising what I am doing right now, is fantastic. It might be I am running through beautiful countryside and nothings hurting, aren’t I lucky to be fit and healthy enough to do this! Or I’m sat around the table with my wife and kids – this is amazing, stop and be in this moment, be present.

Plenty of fine advice in here.

Only thing I wonder is whether you've had or considered traditional psychotherapy (or just counselling), rather than CBT?

Sorry if you've mentioned this or it's been covered. Only had time to skim some of the posts.

Diagnosed as “…a perfectionist who is intolerance of uncertainty…” those What If’s plague me daily.

Just wanted to say, you are not alone.

Uncertainty is everywhere and in everything we do. You walk to the co-op to get some milk and a car could hit you, an asteroid could wipe out your village, a ravenous rottweiler could bite your leg off. It's easy to overthink things, I'm often guilty of being over analytical but I don't catastrophise things.

So much of life is about mitigation, managing expectations etc etc etc.  You often don't know you're doing it but you're frequently doing this at a lower level. Maybe find what helps you do simple risk mitigation like overtaking on the motorway and then think about the mental processes involved.

Only thing I wonder is whether you’ve had or considered traditional psychotherapy (or just counselling), rather than CBT?

Yes, I have a reminder course of CBT coming up for the flying issues followed by 12 weeks of  counsilling.   Its entered my mind that after that a regular monthly session may be needed.

I've had a better day today, and been for a cheap lunch out of the house with Mrs K after slowing things down at work, but can't help thinking I'm "slacking off" somehow.  Usually in my job the plates you spin now equal the rewards later... and the opposite.

I enjoyed rather than tolerated and hour on the Turbo though.

The only thing I can add to otherwise sage advice already offered here is,

Take no shame in sleeping.  I clocked out for two hours this afternoon, it helped offset the three hours' sleep per night that I've had on the bounce for the last fortnight.

Maybe it's an age thing?  I have a lasting memory of my now long-passed grandfather, hoovering up Sunday lunch then sticking on Match Of The Day before "resting his eyes" (snoring his tits off) for an hour at 3pm.

I get the impression that you crave validation in many things you do; hoping for more fuss when you make a sale at work, wanting to compete on your bike, seeking out the best sunglasses to suit your rep mobile!

I think being accepting of yourself would be a good place to start, that may help you rest your mind somewhat

What great advice from others above.

I personally think you are trying to 'map out your life', striving to pay off the mortgage, striving to retire early. As someone said above - take an easier job with fewer working hours. Try and get rid of the thing that gives the most stress (eg your job). A good piece of advice above was to move north. You could have a super house for the money and therefore the mortgage would be paid off and there would be more 'me' time, more time for family activities. It's hard trying to make a perfect life and therefore seem to constantly chase your tail.

I am in a job where I now earn less than the minimum wage, not ideal but I love my work and have time to work in the garden, go for a walk, go for a swim etc. To be fair hubby is earning too which helps. But we decided years and years ago to lead a simpler life, grow veg, have hobbies, we don't buy all the latest gadgets, we only have one car, all these things help with keeping stress levels down. I also have stepped away from a family member who was making my life a misery.

Kryton - you come across as a caring, kind person and often these types suffer from depression, stress and have a worrying personality. Good luck.

I am in a job where I now earn less than the minimum wage, not ideal but I love my work

Bunnyhop's post is good, but I'll provide a counterpoint.  Many people may not be able to get a job that stimulates them, for any amount of money.  So the OP shouldn't feel that this is the only way to do things.  I want to progress in my job not because of the extra money but because I want the extra responsibility, I want to make big decisions and have people listen to me.

Kryton – you come across as a caring, kind person and often these types suffer from depression, stress and have a worrying personality. Good luck.

At the risk of giving the internet something to beat my up with, I think the words in bold are where I'd like to be and I do try to do things that lends themselves to that - charitable things, voluntary things etc - which I don't really talk about because in my mind the attention should be on the recipients not me.  But in reality, I can be a moody selfish prick at times as part of a vicious circle with all of that stress.   See "Pisces", that describes me perfectly.

I want to progress in my job not because of the extra money but because I want the extra responsibility, I want to make big decisions and have people listen to me.

This me also.  I took this role because its an opportunity to own and manage a small business within a business, my business with my expertise with somebody else's investment if you like, and success/me being one of one expert in the field currently provides exactly that ^^, not least the challenge of my skills it brings.    Having craved that, I'm now thinking - with the advice here - that sinking back into relative anonymity with a lower paid job may be a better thing to do.   I do want to wait for the mortgage to be paid though.

 I took this role because its an opportunity to own and manage a small business within a business, my business with my expertise with somebody else’s investment if you like, and success/me being one of one expert in the field currently provides exactly that ^^, not least the challenge of my skills it brings.    Having craved that, I’m now thinking – with the advice here – that sinking back into relative anonymity with a lower paid job may be a better thing to do.   I do want to wait for the mortgage to be paid though.

As the old saying goes, "Success has many Fathers, failure is an orphan".  If you are working for an organisation you will never get the accolades / validation / respect you crave even if you are the very best at what you do and do the best job ever. There are always people all too willing to take the credit for the good times and when things screw up, they disappear like cockroaches under the fridge when a light is switched on. It's just life!

Maybe some family goal planning exercises will help you re-orientate your priorities and help you gain a new perspective on what triggers your emotional responses/reactions to work, racing, cars, holidays, biscuits etc. etc.

I don't really have anything to add to the excellent advice that's already been given . One thing that does occur to me is do you have a strong relationship with your wife . Having that support and understanding can really make all the difference in this type of situation . Good luck .

Have you done an IQ test in the past. Quite some of the things you says seem typical for(very) high) testers. Who have a different way of thinking and working you get too attached to your work/projet overthink over worry about things, don't manage to shut off/ stop worrying whilst most will be allright or is out of your hands.

Its a simplified way of saying but might be worth exploring

There's a newish growing thing in this space .- PQ... Positivity Quotient.

https://www.positiveintelligence.com/science/

Have a look at it to see if you can work out where the sources of frustration/negativity come from.

First off @Kryton57, let me congratulate you on being able to share like this. I know you've been the target of much stick in the past, usually when "banter" has just gone too far (mea culpa).

I do recognise some of your "symptoms", in particular the need for everything to be perfect, which results in over-planning and anxiety. I'm currently living with this and it prohibits me from even simple things like short bivvy trips. I wasn't always needing to have this level of control so I'm paying attention to this thread to see what I can get out of it to.

Another point you raised is your need for validation from others. I've experienced that too and I gradually weaned myself off it when I started to judge myself less harshly. In my experience there is always someone doing something better, harder, more rewarding than yourself and these are the folk you try to measure yourself against. The reality is that there are many, many more folk out there whose "achievements" will never match what you already have. You are looking up a pyramid where you are already close to the very top and trying to get up there rather than being happy where you are (I guess it's actually many pyramids).

Anyways, it's a viewpoint from someone else much less than "perfect" 😂

hofnar, you might be my new best friend if you're telling me I'm highly intellectual.  I don't think I am but I am "different".    Some examples;  I "get" things, but I know for example how software works, what it does and how it helps people despite not being able to work it.  I do mental maths in three's which apparent is a higher intellectual thing, have a very dry sense of humour which offends a lot of people, and my mental maths is quite good albeit I work things out randomly and quickly almost by accident.   I'm a vey good word smith and very good with people in a professional capacity   However....   I'm a socially awkward introvert, don't understand politics, am not clever at argumentative debate, have 5 c grade GSCE's because I can't study, and have the the diy capability of an angry gibbon with 25 fingers.   I have strong (maybe too much?) work ethic as you say do look at myself as a "do-er".   Also, leadership escapes me, I describe myself as a capable Lieutenant, a Commander Ryker or Nick Hueur often able to make those above me successful but never able to quite get there myself.

Have a look at it to see if you can work out where the sources of frustration/negativity come from.

Well I found one today, the 2 x what is possible Sales target which ensures I won't be earning half of my wages this coming year and changing me from sales director to new business rep as if by osmosis.   I need to sound out others but this seems to be part of a grand cost savings plan.   But I will read it, thanks.

Anyways, it’s a viewpoint from someone else much less than “perfect”

Thanks its good though.  I was taken to one side by a neutral party in a fall out once, and this was explained as "not everyone is, or can be on the same rung of life ladder". Not sure why it hasn't come to mind for me lately.

Good lad kryton, it takes stones to admit you're struggling so just by crossing that rubicon you're making progress.

I'll give two bits of "advice", more observations really.

Re: you and your state of mind, you're right to want to do better and progress but that doesn't have to be money/work. Imagine if you put a solid 10-12 hours for just ONE day a week in to being Dad/Husband Kryton. (Difficult I know I'm done after about 20 minutes)

Secondly. Private Equity. They'll want their cheddar. And if theyre not getting through the anticipated channel they WILL get it via scorched earth asset stripping/grinding you into dust. I've seen close up it done to £2bn a year business which was left a smoking ruin. Thousands lost their jobs. Have one eye on the horizon.

Krypton your last post makes me think more in the same sense.

Many highly intelligent people don't see themselves as intelligent as they see/focus on the lackings and/or overthink things. Its far from a guarantee for good grades or a succesfull career as  well. Or can explain poor grades but good work process. As many tend too run on talent too long, so never learn to learn in the standard way(learn by heart as a parrot) So when they need to further on its too late way harder too get.

Too strong work ethics, socially akward, just getting things, not getting leadership and so all goes in that direction.

I have started reading a book about it today but have read on this before. I would normally not share(as its often seen s bragging) but I have read on it cos I know I am. Normally I wouldn't say but none one here kno me so its fine. IMO life would be have been easier if I where not highly intelligent but then thats my personal case and opinion it can translate to some and many others but doesn't have to.

I am myself struggling with similar things I might help to know whats different and just now there are many others like you.

A quote I really like is you are not different or weird... There are just more of these normal one they are the norm cos there are more of they but that doesn't make the better than you or make you need or want to be more like the main crowd.

There is some overlay similar with Autism the Asperger variety. might be worth having a look at too.

IQ test should be quite easy and not too expensive(not really online as most are crap) Asperger is a lot harder and longer.

Question is is it worth it and do you really need to know or know exactly. It might be already worth quite a lot If you identify as one of those two or something others have mentionned. The knowing that others are like you/ similar can often be enough and as a way to embrace you beiing a bit different(like one can be different in many ways but doesn't necessarly mean less or better). Might just help you too understand yourself a bit better and focus on the points that are important for you and those around you to let go a bit more for example and make life a bit easier on yourself.

Note I am not a doctor or a health professional. But have seen people close to me go or going through the process of being tested as beining gifted and or autism Asperger. Am myself still/again on the journey of finding out, not sure if full test are worth the money and time. I guess knowing there are other people who are or work just a bit different in their head might already help a lot and help you some points to work on. Not really liking the expression work but English is not my first language points to focus on and make this a bit smoother easier to cope with or give it a place for yourself.

Private Equity. They’ll want their cheddar.

Yeah I get this, it’s my 3rd time around.  It’s quite clear the cost saving measures have extended to reducing Sales commissions.  Doing some mental number crunching / reading between the lines it’s clear that they’ve created an expectation of me as new business rep (hunter), whereas I’m employed as a Sales Director and am a natural account manager (farmer) all of which they know.  Those in sales will understand the nuances.  So, I have no accounts, three products of which I know one and that one isn’t fit for our purpose in a tier one client, and a target close to my old role in the market leader, yet with no pipeline to support it as a new entrant into a mature market.   With annual leave, I’ve 9 months to make a miracle happen.    I can’t afford to be doing Sales Director activities with a plan like that, and I think I need to make the Sales Director vs Sales Rep case clear to my manager as a semi protest/advanced defence against low performance in either expectation , make enough commissions to pay nexts years big bills E.g. family holiday, whilst looking for a new job in a non PE company.

@elshalimo unsurprisingly the test results were 15/85 toward the negative.  A quick skim over the “Saboteurs” was intriguing, I’ll read more later.

Have you considered leaving sales?  My experience of being close to it is that it would drive me crazy, and while you might find it stimulating I think it also has the potential to be very unrewarding in the long term as it's an endless project with no concrete endpoint/conclusion.  Your last post is quite revealing as it's just a mash of buzzwords and business politics summing up to a very frustrating conclusion.  That might be ok if you had the personality to leave it at work, at 5, and go home to your 'normal' life, but that's not you (too many hours, work at home, obsessive), so it will infect your whole life.

If it’s really as untenable as situation as you describe then why not walk? You won’t get any medals for sticking it out.

Have you considered leaving sales?

Ive a fair bit of thinking to do, and this would be one.  I spent 20 years in professional services before so going back to that and managing a team with the added business knowledge I have could be good.  It also appeals to me to take short term contracts into helping new sales / small business establish and grow may be rewarding.

why not walk?

My base pay is pretty good, and I’ve a family to support, so I’d prefer somewhere to go to first.    I can make some extra commissions maybe up to £20k - not insignificant - before underperformance would start to become obvious so I think it’s best to do that to underpin the family bills next year.

First off @Kryton57, let me congratulate you on being able to share like this. I know you’ve been the target of much stick in the past, usually when “banter” has just gone too far (mea culpa).

Just to call this out, this isn’t bravery on my part.  I’m being clear and honest deliberately because I need help.  The title of the OP is indicative, I’m just getting body blow after body blow right now and even writing this tedious shit down helps.  A problem shared etc….  I know as demonstrated there’s a lot of people with good and kind advice, so I was prepared to take some stick to find it.

Walking when you have a family and mortgage means having somewhere to walk to, preferarbly with greener grass. I've quit objectively good jobs and literally walked out of one but I didn't have an expensive lifestyle at the time. When other people are going to be impacted you don't just walk; you pack a bag, take a map and compass and have a destination.

When Madame and I decided that we wanted a change from the business we'd been running she worked on getting a new qualification and guaranteed job to go with it while I kept all the balls up in the air for the final years of the business.

On the other hand when single I sold anything saleable, resigned and put a passport in my pocket. But even that was planned to some extent, I'd spent a year brushing up my languages in my free time and bought a book on How to Work your Way around the World.

Those sitting pretty might not have noticed but the economy is currently shit for many businesses and the survivors will be those that adapt their models. Some will no doubt take liberties with their staff knowing the risk of losing them in a recession is low and even if they do recruitment won't be as hard as it was a few years back.

If you have to be a sales rep for a while, Kryton, be the very best one you can for as long as it takes to find a better alternative. In your position I'd be reading up on sales and marketting, and updating my CV/professional profiles rather than reading self-help books.

In my first post I said I didn't think this was the time for anything rash, the more information you've given us the more I'm convinced of that. Someone might make a decision for you one day but in the meantime you've got a job and enough to support your family; a good base to launch from, hang on in there till you can fly.

As for age, the problem is more the way others see you than how it impacts your performance.

Edit: crossed posts, you can ignore much of what I've posted as you're clearly doing it.

Edukator thanks, it helps even to get an opinion that validates my thinking.

In your position I’d be reading up on sales and marketting, and updating my CV/professional profiles rather than reading self-help books.

I do do that also, I'm one of these people that can read & digest 2-3 books in parallel.

Thinking this through I think it boils down to accepting it and keeping quiet until something new is found, or making a educated evidential protest with my line manager before carrying on to help protect myself from performance issues later down the line... before accepting it and carrying on.

@Kryton57 - all the advice and links above can be viewed as a set of tools in your newly extended mental toolkit to help you get through the current problems. Dip in and out of them as required but don't take them too literally and don't get hung up if you don't make rapid progress.

An alternate point of view is that you absolutely not be reading books on sales texhniques.  You're already plenty good at it, and all you'll learn is more stuff you perhaps should be doing, and then you can worry you're not doing it.  You need to learn to dissociate yourself from these abstract targets you are applying to yourself.

For those like me I found Romesh’s interview very good, especially at 22mins “dealing with the voice in my head” section:

you absolutely not be reading books on sales texhniques.  You’re already plenty good at it, and all you’ll learn is more stuff you perhaps should be doing, and then you can worry you’re not doing it

This occurred for me for the self help / psych books also.  Maybe get on with living day to day rather than procrastinating over these

Just an update really, so reorganising my weekend and a bit of luck has conspired to give me some rest /perspective.

I - politely - expressed my issues at work, my son returned from Japan, and I reorganised my weekend to reduce my bike training allowing lie ins, a bike ride with my son yesterday and time/cooking with my daughter today. It makes a big change from cramming in my weekends at pace like I usually do.

Together with the Daniel Talks Money "Richer than you think / signs you're doing well" video (not quite what the title suggest it is) and Diary of CEO episode with Johann Hari, I've "breathed out" and enjoyed my time with the family a lot more. I need now not to get back in a rut. There a saying in Sales - "Don't focus on the big number (the target) it'll eat you up. I'm guilt of that in reality and as an analogy for life - I need to continue to step off that train.