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My experience
Am also in this zone, very similar to expatscot and edward2000 maybe not as bad in some instances. Very much not helped by us both being self employed so under pressure constantly, 2 youngs kids, aging parent to care for etc etc.
Rightly or wrongly i throw myself into work or bike stuff but am also older than my wife so while i have apparently recently changed and developed into a grumpy old man and thats the problem, I feel more like its just when I'm tired or stressed with work i can't be bothered anymore dealing with the randomness of comments, mood swings, shouting, criticism etc. my wife has always had a hard time on her menstrual cycles with aggro behaviour which is under no circumstances to be challenged but this has got exponentially worse and its very hard to be sympathetic/supportive as I'm dealing with my own stuff as well. Being the main wage earner i get a lot of resentment over this due to her taking a lot of the home/kid organisation duties as she works less hours! This spikes in any arguments which are normally cyclical and around stress points and is constantly used against me when working more than full time, being responsible for paying the mortgage, bills etc is not a relevant/valued position, its not rational and always a very one sided debate.
The other thing i find frustrating is its being discussed amongst friend groups but its like a taboo subject for me to bring up yet I'm the second most affected person by the issue.
This thread has been very helpful though as i actually thought i was out on a limb with this behaviour as no friends have reported anything similar and I sometimes feel like i'm imagining it, I'm not! So thanks OP
It has also made me realise that i might try and change my approach which consists of just being quiet until the storm blows through and to try and be even more supportive about day to day stuff while trying to introduce more conversations about stress points and what might be the reasons behind them!
If there is no fundamental reason, beyond the menopause causing mood swings
Yeah, I'm talking about when there is a fundamental reason.
Lots of couples will have been staying together "for the sake of the kids" anyway.
My last two employers have had menopause groups for women to talk about their experience and feelings. Organisations being open about this and society at large being more open to conversations is hopefully the start of a cultural change.
From this thread, it’s clear that both women and men have significant challenges and it’s excellent to hear these - because STW members feel able to talk about it.
Yeah, I’m talking about when there is a fundamental reason.
That's fair enough, but it does just cloud the waters a bit when it's suggested on a thread about menopause, as it could be misunderstood as a solution for those of us that are living through it. I have had times where I have thought to myself 'this is ^&$£ing silly, what the $%*@ is going on'? Then I try to remember, it certainly isn't my fault and it isn't my wife's fault either – she's significantly more distressed about what is going on with her body and mind than I can ever begin to imagine.
FWIW, now our girls are getting a little older, we have started to try to get out together a bit more in order to rekindle some of the happy times. It doesn't have to be 'date night' shit, but just going out for a meal, a walk, the cinema, anything like that where we can just be together and forget all the other pressures that add to our combined daily stresses.
Often nowt to do with menopause simply bitterness, rage, disappointment and hate.
I speak from experience in as much as HRT could not override the above.
I can definitely empathise with the OP and also the honest females who have posted on this thread. At least Mrs BC knows that a lot of this is the menopause but she, by her own admission, has been a bit scared until now to go for HRT. Largely because she has reacted to some medications in the past that have made her even more depressed / low and she didn't want to face that risk. I have been pretty rubbish a lot of the time though as I tend to struggle to step back and see that there might be a darker reason for the outburst or hostility and try to deal with the actual words and sentiments being expressed. I can also very much recommend the Newson Health site ( https://www.newsonhealth.co.uk/ ). A friend of ours who is some sort of consulting nurse at her practice is also one of the Newson nurses (was one of the very earliest ones). They do a great job of explaining the options and helping the people they have appointments with to get to the right treatment and doses. It is not completely straightforward but once they have the results of your blood tests they can see what needs to be done and what may help.
As a couple have posted earlier, it's very easy to see this as a strong contender for contributing to divorce rates as it is a horrible thing to go through for both sides. If we go back a generation or two we can see that the perimenopause, mid life crisis for men and kids leaving home probably came together as the perfect storm for divorce to happen. It is shocking that it has been under-researched for women, under cared for by the broad spectrum of GPs and allowed to get to this point. I think the Davina programme, while still a bit fluffy and "prime time TV audience" has done a great job in helping to raise the profile and hopefully we will see more women helped through something that they will all go through. The symptoms will vary from person to person but they will still go through it.
Sorry to hear all the difficult situations out there. Pretty scary how things can change within relationships for various reasons.
Hi I’m the wife of the poster - sorry to thread-bomb 🙈 but really wanted to tell you my experience which sounds identical to your wife’s.) After ten months of going back and forth to the docs and various blood tests I went private and the GP told me my monthly mood crashes were probably not symptoms of the menopause rather it’s my monthly cycle being kicked up a notch BECAUSE of the menopause. So yes I’m perimonopausal AND premenstrual! A killer combination. On another note I was always aware of how my moods were affecting my husband and this was one of the driving forces for me getting help - your wife cannot ignore this, it’s irresponsible and selfish. She has to admit what’s going on you should not have to live like this. I agree with the posters above saying that if this was a male problem well it wouldn’t be a problem, but likewise if you were a woman posting about your husband being emotionally abusive no one would stand for that and the police would have been involved by now. Do all you can for your wife it’s a truly terrifying and horrific time, but ultimately you have to look after yourself.
Yikes.....this thread has popped up at a very timely moment. My life seems to be echoed in many of the posts above...and my wife's also to be fair.
Mrs donks turned 50 last year and was struggling with menopause but would not seek help on the medical grounds mentioned above. About 2 months ago she broke and was given the estrogen gel. She has a coil fitted so apparently this is the only available option. Has it helped...a bit I guess but she can be or is still very irritable which means treating her with kid gloves and staying schtum much of the time in a bid to stop the fireworks. The issue with this is it just doesn't bloody work....I'm just not built that way and eventually I'll say or do or not do the right or wrong thing and all hell breaks loose. I'm so ****in tired of it all all....seriously...exhausted. it's been a good few years to be fair. I'm not sure either of us pegged the menopause for quite a while and she has other mental health issues also so it just kind of festered away until it was brough to light. We've been through all of the above mentioned leaving threats and wanting to be on her own and sadly quite a bit of dark and invasive thoughts etc. It also seems cyclical....once every 4 to 6 weeks I guess, maybe sometimes a little longer but there is a pattern. And like above she seems to have a photographic memory for all I have done and it's always me. Gaslighting is an interesting comment as mentioned earlier...I've never really thought of it like that but the constant accusations and put downs thrown my way do seem like a form of this.
Her mental health is a second tier to the issue though and just as hard for her and me...and the two boys (22 and 15). Depression and anxiety have crushed her over the last few years leading to her quitting work a few months ago as she was on a knife edge. So we now have a further issue with no money coming in from her, and no realistic return to work until she gets a bit of a grip on her feelings. She also has no friends. Or family other than her sister who's cool but she's pushed her away over the last few years with spiteful tantrums and baseless accusations. So I'm in a real bind as every day I take the dogs out I run through the "I'm leaving her....this can't go on" type scenarios but then I'm reminded that she has no way of supporting the house, kids and 4 animals if I do go. I then worry that if she left she might do something silly.....so we just push on....and have been for over 20 years now.
Don't get me wrong I want us to work...I want to be a bit better and more understanding and aggravate her less. But it seems like unless she can get the menopause and her mental health under control it's a fight I'm losing.
I sit here now typing this as she's gone to bed with the hump because I didn't hear the rain earlier and the washing was still out!!! Yep my fault.
It's shit, I'm 5 years in and tired tbh.
I can see why men my age have a midlife crisis or stay in their shed if they can't afford a tvr etc.
Peri-menopause can happen at that age – it is not as common but it is not impossible.
MrsRNP was late 20's when she started the menopause - she's 50 next year. We met mid 20's and started for a family a few years later but it didn't seem to be happening. We were told on a new years eve appointment that due to her depleted egg stock that we couldn't have children (that was a rubbish night in the pub!)
Heat surge's started for a few years but then subsided. Her libido dropped off a cliff and has never really returned (there's always PornHub!)
But otherwise we seemed to have got off lightly as she's still the awesome MrsRNP that I married.
Well I’m going to the doctors today. The wife thinks it’s because in depressed (which I’m not), my parents noted at the weekend that it’s her that looks depressed (classic projection). I want to explain to the docs my situation and just ask the question, could it be the menopause? If so what can/do I do next? How do I tell wifey that she’s bat shit crazy and needs treating?
Well I’m going to the doctors today
Hope you get some support and guidance
I think it bears reiterating. It is entirely normal to become irritated with the people that we love and live in close proximity with.
When we have other issues, such as the menopause or mental health issues, this can happen more frequently.
However when our response to becoming irritated is to deliberately try and hurt the person who we perceive as the cause of our irritation, either physically, verbally, or mentally, this is abusive behaviour, and it is wrong.
It is common for people who are being abused to feel that they are somehow responsible for the abuse by setting off the other person. They are not.
It is also almost universal that abusers search for excuses that absolve them of responsibility for their behaviour.
Unless we are psychotically delusional, we are all responsible for our own behaviour, no matter how angry we feel at the time.
Similarly, regret and love bombing behaviour between the episodes is not a reliable sign of taking responsibility, and is more often further abusive behaviour with the aim of perpetuating the relationship through manipulative psychological behaviour.
There is a world of difference between someone who does it once or twice, learns from it, and then actually makes changes (not just paying lip service to it), than to someone who professes sorrow but then carries on with the harmful behaviour.
We are not responsible for other adult’s behaviour, only our own. If someone significant in our life is harming us through their behaviour and is not learning how to change it, our only options are to either live with it or leave.
Very informative thread ..thank you to all who bared their souls ..I feel for you having been on the receiving end not long ago but now realize my experience is relatively mild compared to some of the horror stories on here. My wife also went off sex and stayed that way but that was 30 years ago after she met me ! When I first stripped off in front of her she screamed .. " no way ...I'm not a lesbian !"
Seriously though ..life can often seem so cruel and unfair but I guess that's because we believe "fairness" to be a thing ..it's not ..just look around the world . As the Buddha taught 2500 yrs ago ...everything you become attached to will eventually bring suffering because everything is subject to change. The more you love someone/ something , when it changes (..and it will) , the more you suffer . Combine change with our inherent negativity bias and you have a major component of human suffering.
Best of luck everyone , Big hug from Exeter.
Firstly, may I say bravo to the OP for being honest and brave enough to ask for advice. I feel for you, you're in a really brutal situation and I sincerely hope you find a resolution.
Will your wife listen to your children? As in suggest to your children that her behaviour is upsetting them? So you're not the bearer of bad news. Just a thought.
Whoever thought of the thyroid activity, good call and worth investigating.
Yep, menopause does suck. I avoided HRT for years because my Mum had a rough time on it and got off it quickly. Unfortunately, I couldn't stand my physical symptoms any more. 4+ years of interrupted sleep. Every night at 03:00-03:30 I would be woken up on fire. Joint pain was driving me nuts. After the year without any periods I thought that life must get better. It didn't. It got worse. Hot flushes that were so annoying, especially at work. Last thing you need when trying to land an aeroplane is a hot flush! Argh. I had suffered from depression (full recovery) many decades ago so I knew how to handle the mood swings and irritability. Seriously, they are scary and you can just feel so prickly. I counted to 10 many many times.
So I went onto HRT. My GP was brilliant and we got it right the first time. WOW. What a transformation. Within a day, I slept for 8 hours. Amazing. It took a couple of days and the hot flashes, gone. Joint pain, gone. Fatigue, gone. Mood swings, gone. The libido still suffers unfortunately.
It was riding with some of my similarly aged ladies that I realised I had some anxiety and possibly a bit of brain fog. Happily, I now know the anxiety is hormone related so I talk myself through it. The brain fog is now minimised - HRT cannot reverse the brain fog that's already started.
I've just had my annual HRT review. Blood pressure is fine, no migraines, weight gain was minimal (but it did happen - then again, I love eating!). No other issues that would indicate something's not right. I have now accepted my new older self. I do run "hotter" which is great for the electricity bills 😉 and I do get irritable every now and then, then again, I think we all do. 😀 Given the job I do, I know effective, open and honest communication is essential to our relationship. Fortunately, my husband understands too.
Also, we don't have the life pressures many out there have so that keeps the stressors under control.
Some ladies can't take HRT and I feel for them. I just hope their doctors find suitable alternatives to minimise or manage the symptoms. HRT gave me my life back.
I haven't read all the answers.
Make your case calmly when she is calm and put it in terms of I'm sad because we are fighting" rather than " you keep on doing this"
Make your case calmly when she is calm and put it in terms of I’m sad because we are fighting” rather than ” you keep on doing this”
One way of doing this may be to put it in a letter which can be left for them to read when they are ready, it's less confrontational.
For a woman, starting the menopause is about the most unavoidable reminder there is that she’s getting old. As well as all the hormonal issues, there can be another impact on mental health – “I’m old, I can’t hide that fact from myself now” which can be pretty tough to deal with.
@edward2000 If your partner is even slightly aware of what's taking place her reaction is likely to be worse due to her relative youth. One of Mrs Sandwich's friends went through menopause whilst her kids were in primary school, that marriage went South soon afterwards.
My experience is that an older woman will take less crap from their partner generally and even less when menopause is done and dusted. Our experience of HRT has been mixed. The pill and gel worked but caused excessive bleeding, the patches worked for a while but there's now bleeding again and herself is less than impressed with it. The medical specialists have been dismissive of all this and less than helpful. On the plus side madame is less fuzzy with her logic and is delightful to be around again.
Today, we had the most ridiculous exchange of words about what pants I wanted for Christmas - in August. I admit I responded with some incredulity. I would laugh at how puerile it all was if it wasn't a perfect microcosm of our difficulties.
The details are irrelevant. I was left anxious about the exchange, with nerves jangling, unable to focus on work all morning and over-analysing what happend, as one tends to do when there's no feed back from the other.
No other conflict in my life affects me thus, so I know its significant. When I returned for lunch, I attempted to put a plaster on the wound by trying to discuss how and why our exchange was so unpleasant, to be derided and laughed at. Apparently my turmoil is amusing - this makes me sad.
We worked at it for 10 minutes, which has to be the longest conversation we've had that wasn't about the kids welfare for at least 2 years. It turns out we weren't even bickering about the same thing within the conversation.
More came tumbling out than I wanted and now I feel vulnerable and regretful, but I suppose its out there. She just stood there with a dismissive look on her face.
Am I expected to 'be the man' and just suck it all up? It's like she doesn't see how horrible its been/is.
But she's said she doesn't want a separation and suggested some counselling, so thats at least some progress, or is it just a sop to the main event, or delaying the inevitable?
I'm not averse to counselling but I know absolutely nothing about it. Does anyone have any useful experience to add?
But she’s said she doesn’t want a separation and suggested some counselling
Its a start - no direct experience but from friends it gets stuff out in the open. That may enable you to resolve, or to decide to end it.
No one should have to live with the feelings that you described.
But she’s said she doesn’t want a separation and suggested some counselling, so thats at least some progress, or is it just a sop to the main event, or delaying the inevitable?
I’m not averse to counselling but I know absolutely nothing about it. Does anyone have any useful experience to add?
I have had some - some "marriage guidence" which helped hugely. Only 3 or 4 sessions as I remember. Julie and I had got into a pattern of fighting about nothing much and I have no doubt that the counselling saved our relationship and afterwards we had 25 good years.
Counselling depends on both of your agendas.
The fact that she's suggested it is a reasonable sign, as long as she follows through on it.
We’re trying it. I can’t imagine it will be useful if I’m honest, my wife’s listening skills are appalling.
Counselling is incredibly hard work but potentially very rewarding. You both have to commit 100%.
You may not follow the path you thought or find the outcome you wanted though. Be aware of that
I have been through two periods of counselling, both very different but ultimately very important in being able to move forward in a relationship. In both cases it took many sessions to reach clarity, it was tiring and sometimes frightening if I'm honest. I'd like to think I was a better person for it though, and I think it helped in many areas of my life, not just personal relationships
We’re trying it. I can’t imagine it will be useful if I’m honest, my wife’s listening skills are appalling.
Thats the sort of judgemental thinking that leads to problems ( not meant personally). You all need to remember it takes two to tango. I had to accept my responsibilities for the rows we were having as did Julie. You have to take the judgemental stuff out and actively engage positivly
Before the counselling I would have said it was all her fault. Afterwards I accepted my share of the responsibility which allowed us to move forward
For those interested in learning/understanding more about the science of the menopause i can highly recommend the podcasts by Doctor Louise Newson. There are 2 recent ones (podcast 216 and 217) that look particularly relevant to this thread that may give some understanding of the mental health/mood issues people are experiencing and could provide those suffering with an insentive to seek treatment. In a nutshell hormones are seriously powerful things.
https://www.balance-menopause.com/type/podcast/
OP here, returning to this thread for first time to reply, but have been keeping up with it.
I would like to thank everyone for their advice, support, kind words and solidarity. It really has meant so much. Whilst I take some comfort in knowing that I am not alone, it is sad to see so many other people with similar experiences.
I've been doing more research and am convinced it is menopause symptoms. She is complaining about brain fog, weight gain, exhaustion, heavy periods and general anxiety. I am experiencing the thick end of the mood swings (that is the diplomatic version) and loss of libido is obvious. Age is also about right. The challenge I now have is helping her to come to the same conclusion and seek help. My wife is a medic and with that comes a degree of arrogance, she is unlikely to listen to friends or family on this one.
I do know that there is a high chance that her mood swings gives her licence to voice complaints that she has rumbling away all of the time, I need to find a way of working through these with her. I'm not putting all of these problems on her, I have to step up.
In the meantime, she has been lovely!. But, I know we are on a countdown to the next, inevitable, massive blow up. I'm dreading it.
Its all ruddy difficult
have you tried to talk to her about this when her mood is good? As above put in in terms of " I am sad, I am worried" not " you did this"
Is there a mutual female friend that might have a word?
Also remember that she may well hate what she is becoming / doing and menopause can in some folk be almost grief like in the reaction. Denial, anger etc
For those considering counselling. There are different sorts and different counsellors. It has saved my relationship. But did not work for a friend. I strongly recommend it if only to help build empathy and perspective.
As a sufferer of these symptoms myself, I would also like to thank everyone that has posted on here. Based on the recommendation, I read the book Menopausing last week and it swung my decision to seek help sooner rather than later. Hearing how these symptoms have been improved by HRT on this thread is encouraging and I'm keeping my fingers crossed it will work for me.
My doctor asked what I knew about it and I wanted to say I got all this useful information off the Singletrack World forum, but I knew she wouldn't understand... 😀
Anyway, patches ordered for next week and I'll let you know if they have transformed me into a younger happier person in a month or two! 😀
My doctor asked what I knew about it and I wanted to say I got all this useful information off the Singletrack World forum, but I knew she wouldn’t understand… 😀
Possible new member? Or already a member!
I can’t imagine it will be useful if I’m honest, my wife’s listening skills are appalling.
To be honest, my ex was (and still is) *incredibly* bad at listening (and remembering stuff!) and has been for most of her life. It's been commented on by her parents, grandparents, siblings, friends and now even our kids. Despite that, she's in complete denial and refuses to acknowledge that there is any sort of an issue.
@No_discerning_taste don't get fixed on one type of HRT. Mrs S is currently off the patches (puncture repair patches of awsomeness) as the breakthrough bleeding has returned. There will be a short intermission while brain-fog and other symptoms are assessed and if necessary she'll be going with option 3 (The Davina option) Mirena coil and oestrogen patches which I hope works for a bit longer for her. Thankfully there's a specialist GP at our practice who's good on chopping and changing and more importantly is also a woman. (Some of the Gynae consultants have been arrogant male arseholes and should be allowed nowhere near a woman at a low ebb).
I'll simply say that Mrs S regrets going on HRT - even though it apparently resolved most of her symptoms - due to the fact that she was later diagnosed with breast cancer. The (additional) risks are small, but not zero. The cancer has been dealt with but there's no way she would ever consider HRT again. I think a couple of her friends have also stopped HRT recently.
HRT is very definitely a decision that you need to take an informed choice on. I know women who really rate it, others who have never touched it. Risk run both ways in that menopause untreated can lead to ostoporesis and other issues but HRT does increase your breast cancer risk
I don’t normally disagree with TJ but …. menopause doesn’t need ‘treating’ it’s not a disease, it’s a perfectly natural transition in a woman’s life. Osteoporosis isn’t a given if you keep on top of diet & the right sort of (weight bearing) exercise. The 2002 WHI study that originally suggested a link between HRT & increased breast cancer risk was hugely flawed but the coverage at the time meant that the use of HRT fell massively out of fear when many women could have benefitted.
As I mentioned over on the women’s forum there’s a mass of useful info out there now to help navigate perimenopause … which is actually what is being talked about above … and then menopause which is the point where a woman has been without her period for a year.
Useful books include Perimenpause Power by Maisie Hill & Lara Briden’s Hormone Repair Manual. If you understand what’s actually going on it’s waaay easier to cope 😀
Old joke.. why do husband's die before their wives.... because they want to.
Slightly more serious view, based upon my experience and watching friends i think a lot of husband's are simply not fit for purpose after a certain age, kids leaving, mortgages being paid off... i know that the partner my wife needs for the latter part of her life simply doesn't exist in me. My aspergers driven work ethic and ability to get stuff done simply no longer has a value. I understand and accept this but i can't morph into the person she needs. So this will end badly. Menopause is amplifying all of this, the level of irrational thought, emotional reaction to a mug being in the wrong place in the diswasher, underpinned by procrastination is something to behold.
Just to add i have diagnosed aspergers which my wife thinks is a choice i have made rather than something i can do little about, all i do is keep my gob shut most of the time.
Fair enough ART. clumsy use of words
@oldmanmtb You're not wrong, I'm currently trying to transition to the husband needed for the next stage of our lives. Some of it is easy, other bits require quite a lot of concentration on my part. I'm a (flawed) work in progress, though there's always bikes and trails to escape to in extremis.
Just to add i have diagnosed aspergers which my wife thinks is a choice i have made rather than something i can do little about, all i do is keep my gob shut most of the time.
@oldmanmtb2 in a sea of tough posts, this has jumped out at me. Feeling your pain, I hope you both can find a way through this.
What husband do they want/need now that you don't think you fulfill?
emotional reaction to a mug being in the wrong place in the diswasher
The male menopause is real then?
Osteoporosis isn’t a given if you keep on top of diet & the right sort of (weight bearing) exercise
No amount of weight bearing exercise or keeping on top of diet will stop post menopausal bone loss. You can limit the damage but bone loss will still happen. For some women osteoporosis is a given.
The 2002 WHI study that originally suggested a link between HRT & increased breast cancer risk was hugely flawed but the coverage at the time meant that the use of HRT fell massively out of fear when many women could have benefitted.
I would argue the most flawed/biased studies are those that state there is no link. Anyhow 21 years on, something up to date:
So if you had a family history of both breast cancer and osteoporosis what would you do, ART?
We have a thread in which some men seem very keen on putting women on a treatment for men's convenience. I think women should be left to make their own decisions about what is best for themselves without interference from men and apply that strictly to my own couple. Not keen on the pill - condoms and calcualtions. Not keen on HRT - lube, vitamin D, lots of walking, tolerance and love.
What type of husband.. well one that is emotionally connected to each feeling negative or positive that she has, being aware of all the micro issues in life that impact her happiness (ref mug in dishwasher) one who will listen but never challenge, disagree, offer opinion and simply nods. A husband that should be on hand/available to sort all problems (even when there is no soloution that supports her wishes) and whose advice/opinion is not valid or required. An expectation that i will take aĺl critism on an hourly basis of my poor performance in respect to all the above. Above all else endure the procrastination about the location of furnture, plant, what colour of paint etc etc etc
What type of husband.. well one that is emotionally connected to each feeling negative or positive that she has, being aware of all the micro issues in life that impact her happiness (ref mug in dishwasher) one who will listen but never challenge, disagree, offer opinion and simply nods. A husband that should be on hand/available to sort all problems (even when there is no soloution that supports her wishes) and whose advice/opinion is not valid or required. An expectation that i will take aĺl critism on an hourly basis of my poor performance in respect to all the above. Above all else endure the procrastination about the location of furnture, plant, what colour of paint etc etc etc
Without wanting to state the obvious or derail the thread, that doesn't sound entirely reasonable
Or like it has much to do with the menopause as stated by oldmanmtb2 himself on the previous page.
Well it seems reasonable to someone in our House.
We have a thread in which some men seem very keen on putting women on a treatment for men’s convenience. I think women should be left to make their own decisions about what is best for themselves without interference from men and apply that strictly to my own couple.
Can't disagree with that. Nothing to add to the discussion except I had to take HRT from my mid-30's and really there was very little in the way of trusted information. Wish I'd stopped it sooner/not taken it all, hey ho. On a serious note, it does concern me that it's being touted as the Holy Grail.
Once again, some people on here are describing a toxic relationship, not the menopause or peri-menopause.
IME, the issue with HRT and cancer risk are twofold:
First is that it's being promoted as a panacea in some parts, when it's not, and some women really aren't suitable for it, because of the cancer risk.
Second, it's more about how women would feel if they then developed cancer. The increased risk is low, but the cancers involved (breast, ovarian and to a lesser extent endometrial) are relatively common. They are treatable in many cases, and much more so than they were even 20 years ago, however the treatments themselves are still pretty brutal to go through, and quite often make the menopause seem like a walk in the park, to quote one of my patients. Unfortunately some women then blame themselves retrospectively for making the (rational at the time) choice to have HRT.
True about toxic relationships, i think the menopause may just surface a lot of issues.
<p style="text-align: left;">It's difficult (particularly for aspergers) to know what amount of tolerance and understanding to show and more difficult to know when to walk away. For people like me i struggle to accept or have empathy (being honest) with another human who will not take what i see as simple practical steps to improve their well being. Yes i know this is an Aspie viewpoint.</p>
I don't think that is an Asperger's point of view actually, especially if it's impacting on your own mental health.
It is completely reasonable, that if someone is engaging in behaviour that actively harms your well-being, to ask them to stop.
If they will not do so, then you either have to decide whether you can tolerate it, or leave.
To decide whether you can tolerate it, it helps to have some pre-decided criteria. An example may be, if I find myself dreading/avoiding going home, then it is time to leave.
What I was trying to say in my clumsy way earlier was that taking HRT must and can only be that womans individual decision based on good information. there are factors that work both ways. I know women whose lives have been transformed by taking it. I know women who didn't take it and are happy with that.
some women then blame themselves retrospectively for making the (rational at the time) choice to have HRT.
This is where Mrs S is at. As with other treatments, once started it is also difficult to stop, because you fear a resumption of the systems.
On relationships, I don't recognise much, if any, of what's being described above so it's definitely not a given.
We're all living a lot longer post menopause and expected to be able to work longer too. I used to think I need to do everything the 'natural' way but after experiencing life and relationship limiting peri symptoms and discovering that the newer, body identical hrt treatments exist I changed my mind and have no qualms about cancer risks. Those were hugely overblown and were also based on the old types of hrt. The newer types show very little or no evidence of increased risk as long as you are not one of the few unlucky people to be genetically prone.
"Many women worry about breast cancer when taking HRT, but most types of HRT do not actually increase the risk of breast cancer. Some studies have shown that women taking combined HRT containing both estrogen and a progestogen (which is a synthetic progesterone) may be associated with a very small increased risk of breast cancer.
The increased risk is related to the type of progestogen in the HRT and not the estrogen. Taking micronised progesterone (the body identical progesterone) has not been shown to be associated with an increased risk of breast cancer.
Even for women taking the synthetic progestogen, the risk is very low and is actually less than the increased risk of breast cancer associated with drinking a couple of glasses of wine each night, or from being overweight. No studies have shown that any type of HRT increases the risk of a woman’s death from breast cancer.
If you have had a hysterectomy in the past, and are just taking estrogen without a progestogen, you actually have a lower risk of breast cancer than if you did not take HRT at all. There is also no increased risk of breast cancer in women who take any type of HRT when they are under the age of 51 years.
If you take estrogen in tablet form, you have a small increased risk of developing a blood clot, but this risk is not
present if you take estrogen through the skin in a patch, gel or spray"
Biggest killer of older women is heart disease (which is reduced with hrt)and then other things like osteoporosis leading to hip breaks mean much reduced quality and length of life. So by all means everyone make their own choice but just like when deciding whether to get the COVID vaccine it required a risk reward assessment the same should be considered with hrt especially with new treatments and updated knowledge. A lot of GPS still have pretty outdated ideas so even seeking professional advice can be a potscode lottery.
Taking micronised progesterone (the body identical progesterone) has not been shown to be associated with an increased risk of breast cancer.
Just to clarify, that still means that it could still be associated with an increased risk of breast cancer, indeed, medically speaking, it would be surprising if it wasn't in time.
Micronised progesterone almost certainly hasn't been used in enough patients for long enough for the risks to show up yet. It takes years for increased risks to show up in the data, especially if they're relatively small.
Second, it’s more about how women would feel if they then developed cancer.
And the problem with this is of course that the cancers are quite common, and the increased risk demonstrably small, but everyone who gets cancer will suspect that it wouldn't have happened without the HRT, even though this belief is obviously false for a large majority of them.
But, you know, just about everything causes cancer at some level. I'm sure that none of us manage to avoid all known risks, and most of us indulge in major and well-known ones like alcohol, red meat and other dietary factors.
No studies have shown that any type of HRT increases the risk of a woman’s death from breast cancer.
That's a disingeneous way of putting it when studies have clearly shown an increased breast cancer risk, but the survival rate from breast cancer is high. It would be very difficult to find astatistically proveable link using only cancer death stats.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)31709-X/fulltext
Like many people of my age I know a good few breast cancer survivors and the lasting effects of the treatment they have endured conbined with the psycholgical impact are considerable. Objectively according to that Lancet article you are playing a numbers game, are the benefits of HRT (if any depending on the person) worth a 1/25 - 1/200 chance of getting breast cancer if you take HRT of some type for between five and ten years.
But, you know, just about everything causes cancer at some level.
It depends what you mean, exactly, by that statement?
First, it's not everything. Very few plants, if eaten and not overly processed, are associated with an increased cancer risk, in fact they're mostly protective.
Second there are substances that are toxic at any dose. Tar in cigarette smoke, alcohol being two most commonly ingested.
Third is that there are some substances that are carcinogenic if consumed in large amounts (above the toxic threshold), but that don't seem to have an increased risk if consumed at moderate levels (below the toxic threshold), such as red meat.
A lot of GPS still have pretty outdated ideas so even seeking professional advice can be a potscode lottery.
I have heard this from women I know - very variable response from GPs
Is this something that should be done thru specialist clinics?
Third is that there are some substances that are carcinogenic if consumed in large amounts (above the toxic threshold), but that don’t seem to have an increased risk if consumed at moderate levels (below the toxic threshold), such as red meat.
Why do you think there is a threshold for red meat?
Most cancer research is based on a quasi-linear model (perhaps something like log-linear) implying the absence of a threshold, the risk just increases with the level of consumption. Of course this is hard to prove, as the increase in risk may be undetectable for very small doses. That doesn't mean the risk is zero.
Regardless, the proven threshold for meat causing increased rates of cancer is not very high. A quick google suggests that 50g per day causes a clear rise in colorectal cancer rates.
But yes you're right I was much too broad saying "just about everything". I should have said something like "lots of things that many people eat and do routinely".
Is this something that should be done thru specialist clinics?
No. It's a reason to prioritise recruiting and retaining good quality GPs and reducing our workload so that we can provide a better cost effective service.
Most cancer research is based on a quasi-linear model (perhaps something like log-linear) implying the absence of a threshold, the risk just increases with the level of consumption. Of course this is hard to prove, as the increase in risk may be undetectable for very small doses. That doesn’t mean the risk is zero.
Now try convincing the pro-nuclear people on this forum and elsewhere of that. 🙂
So if you had a family history of both breast cancer and osteoporosis what would you do, ART?
I have no issues with women choosing HRT and there are often good medical reasons why they would as other women have said. Perimenopause/ menopause is in many ways a 'barometer of health' that can reveal and amplify underlying health issues so there's every reason to come at this stuff holistically if you can.
I do have family history, but I focus on the things I can control. That means eating the right food, paying attention to gut health, taking the best supplements, lifting heavy, not drinking alcohol, maintaining a healthy circadian rhythm and avoiding [unnecessary] stress as best I can - you know, like getting sucked into threads like this on STW - 😉
ART
your post have been interesting to me.
Two things.
1) I'm loving Kramer's contributions to this thread.
2) "Today, we had the most ridiculous exchange of words about what pants I wanted for Christmas – in August. I admit I responded with some incredulity. I would laugh at how puerile it all was if it wasn’t a perfect microcosm of our difficulties." This concerns me deeply. Hormones aside I've seen this movie before and it ended with me with a golf-swing related concussion.
Christmas pants, i raise that one with "two tins of paint"
Other half " we have two tins of exterior paint that are the same colour but different"
Me "we only have one tin of exterior paint"
Other half "no we have two"
Me goes to shed fetchs one tin of paint.
Other half "wheres the other tin"
Other half "you must have thrown it out"
Me "yes i must have" returns paint to shed along with will to live Knowing full well there has never been two tins.
I can post this type of shit every day.
The osteoporosis information is interesting. I didn't take HRT and got away 'lightly' with very few menopausal symptoms, instead going down the 'doing lots of exercise' route (I stress this does not work for everyone). A few years later I had a fall (running down a hill and slipped, landing heavily) and broke my hip, this incident has really affected my life in so many ways. Had I known about HRT (there was very little info around then) maybe I would have gone onto it to prevent osteoporosis.
Kramer - it's also not always possible to step away from someone in one's life that causes grief or is toxic (in my case a female relative). But can I just say your advice on this thread has been helpful in so many ways.
Thread resurrection, but my wife and I are on absolutely complete meltdown at the moment. Divorce is knocking on the door. I can not do or say anything right. It’s an absolutely horrific situation currently. I have never been so upset in my life, I didn’t know a 39 year old could cry as much I have done recently. It’s so sad, our twins are two. I love them dearly. It feels like a helpless situation.
Thanks Kimbers. I did suggest to her perimenopause could be at play. Obviously she melted down at the suggestion but I thought I had to get it out somehow. She claims she then went to the doctors to discuss it, and she claims the doctor said they were concerned that someone would even suggest such a thing. If this was true I absolutely can not believe this was the response from the doctor. I’m just trying to look out for my wife because I care.
I honesty believe we will get divorced, but I can not stress how much I want to try and resolve it.
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kimbers
Full Member
ed , cant comment on your exact situation but having had twins…. its freaking tough!
yes it can be, but it’s more down to the circumstances than the amount of children (parent to two 14 yr old girls and foster carer of one 13 yr old boy)
Twins are hard work at 2, likely to have been lots of stress and complications with the birth, even if it went well. Have you considered post natal depression might be a factor?
i’ve not read the entire thread, but was wondering if you’d been to speak to your own GP, Edward?
i’ve just read the posts on this page and your wife’s behaviour doesn’t sound “normal”. i think you should discuss it with your GP. i say this only because it is what i would do.
good luck and best wishes
Thank you Lat. and a family member gave me the same advice yesterday. My mother thinks my wife is depressed, her brother (very empathetic and understanding) has she comes across as sad, and other people have commented. How do I tell her we think she is depressed without her yelling at me? How do I give her the insight to reflect within? All I want to do is help her, but I’m dammed if I do and dammed if I don’t.
Really sorry to hear about this situation. I hope you find a solution.
I have booked to see my gp today to discuss my wife and ways to help. Fingers crossed she can advise a way forward.
I posted a reply earlier that seems to have not made it, but it sounds like you are trying the right approach and have family on both sides who share your concerns.