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In advance of tonights C4 program "Drugs Live"
I think its an avenue that would benefit from formal exploration. But real life experience shows that it quite clearly contributes to depression through its abuse. Does this kind of experimentation actually just wave a green flag to youngsters who take the headline as gospel and experiment/abuse with low quality and random dosages, supporting the black market and funding terrorism?
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/sep/26/mdma-depression-ptsd-channel-4-study ]Linky for those so inclined[/url]
Isn't MDMA something to do with cage fighting?
MDMA in being used for what it was originally intended shocka!!!
If anyone believes that anyone is waiting for a green light to start necking pills, or not, then they're delusional
In Switzerland it's prescribed for marriage counselling sessions
there is no way to have a rational discussion on illegl drugs because you will always get some berk going "but its illeeeeeeegal!!!!!!" and then this clouds their view cos its gotta be illegal for a reason right? it cant be that the gov't sh@t their selves about every little thing? there are worse things in the world than illegal drugs, take alcohol for example. johnny vaughn had a good example (hes a cock knocker of the highest order in every other respect) who would you rather meet down a dark alley a stoned lad who can hardly keep his eyes open or some pissed toilet wi a chip up his arse?
Only someone on drugs would compare illegal drugs to alcohol.
What percentage of the population that take alcohol have problems with it?
What percentage of the population that take illegal drugs have a problem with them?
What percentage of the population that take alcohol have problems with it?What percentage of the population that take illegal drugs have a problem with them?
tell us
Yes, tell us
I always thought that MDMA could actually cause depression as it can lead to a reduced serotonin (sp) level (one of the causes of depression).
Loads of people take drugs with no problems, it's not called recreational drug use for nothing.
What are those percentages, do you know?
trailmonkey - Member
What percentage of the population that take alcohol have problems with it?
What percentage of the population that take illegal drugs have a problem with them?tell us
yes, I'm interested too. Trailmonkey?
Only someone on drugs would compare illegal drugs to alcohol.
Classic response ha ha
Pure MDMA in small doses can be an aid, too much and the comedowns are too noticeable and completly counterintuitive.
Obviously most people can't get pure md so have to use regular street pills which have everything bar MDMA in them.
Yes, percentages for me too please Tucker.
Loads of people take drugs with no problems, it's not called recreational drug use for nothing.
^this
Time to wheel out this ol' thing
[img] 
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interesting that graph on so many levels......
I've never taken MDMA. I spent my raving years entirely straight - lost, as they say, in music. The prospect of watching Keith Allen grinning away on a hospital trolley is unlikely to change the situation.
I suspect there's serious mileage in clinical use for PTSD, etc - but the endless wibble about warmth and empathy does [i]sometimes[/i] leave me cold. Something in me instinctively rebels against the idea that heightened emotion should depend upon artificial ingredients - all [b]IMO[/b], of course. I'm not going to argue with people who feel that their lives have been changed for the better.
From the graph, what's the definition of a narcotic? A pain killer?
My understanding too, but I've had similar side effects from alcohol too. E and loud house music is quite a special mix though, apparently.I always thought that MDMA could actually cause depression as it can lead to a reduced serotonin (sp) level (one of the causes of depression).
This is going to be a most excellent programme, I have set out the evening to watch it, I'm even putting down my bike.
Y'see I have a long standing "argument/debate/call it what you will" with a close mate of mine on this very subject, that of MDMA and it's use/abuse taken for medical/recreational purposes.
Whilst I bounced through the rave era clean and healthy, some mates bounced to the rhythm with blured vision, headaches and a thirst the size of the Atlantic.
Looking forward to this even if it means watching Keith Allen gurn.
noteeth
Something in me instinctively rebels against the idea that heightened emotion should depend upon artificial ingredients
Do you disagree with the use of anti-depressants?
I always thought that MDMA could actually cause depression as it can lead to a reduced serotonin (sp) level (one of the causes of depression).
MDMA causes increased serotonin and dopamine release which raises mood. The knock-on effect of this is that subsequently the brain experiences a shortfall in serotonin and dopamine levels in the brain (it's all been released)
I guess the medical application (for PTSD and depression) would look to lessen the shortfall (and the perceived high) through dosage.
Do you disagree with the use of anti-depressants?
Nope - not when *needed.
Only someone on drugs would compare illegal drugs to alcohol.What percentage of the population that take alcohol have problems with it?
What percentage of the population that take illegal drugs have a problem with them?
Good point well made, shows how a discussion about illegal drugs all boils down to "thats a druggies argument, druggies are bad, teacher told me so, so la la la la im not listening."
EDIT: we need to look at illegal drugs on a scale of harm, weed is not the same as heroin, barbituates and E's are completely different to each other. Its like comparing rocket fuel and red diesel, they are both fuel but the differences far outweigh the similarities.
MDMA for depression 'could' work but I think this programme will glamourise the drug and have the presenters gurning on club/rave doses....it works on serotonin by flooding the brain with the chemical, trouble is in recreational doses it leaves the serotonin receptors fried leading to depression.
In smaller therapeutic doses it may have a legitimate use in mental health, there are already widely used Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRIs) used as antidepressants.
This will be shock TV sadly, anything with that nobber Keith Allen usually is....shame as it does help people open up and talk about things they might otherwise bottle up, as someone else said it's use in PTSD could be useful.
I spent my raving years entirely straight
Er... 😳
Er...
Give or take the odd beer - so, no, not [i]properly[/i] 'avin it.
Wasted youth 😉
Spent most weekends lost in the world of MDMA back in late 80s and 90s, house music and E were a tremendous combination.......not sure I could handle the comedown now I've just turned 40 though!
Never felt quite right til about thursdays though after a weekend of necking pills.......and then it was time to do it all again, get the serotonin flowing.
No regrets, still tingle thinking about those days and listening to the music still.
Not sure I want to watch it tonight as I'l just be wanting to go out and get luved up all weekend!!
Can you still get E's these days?
Wasted youth
I remember all of it, so I guess so. 😀
Did bit of raving during my time (mid 40's and kids now so not for a while) and E's affected different people differently, even amongst a group of us taking the same ones and simolar quantities. Some danced all night, some chased women, some talked, some dribbled. Some had terrible comedowns, some of us enjoyed it 😉
One or two I know had some mental health issues later, whether that was from the drugs or not I don't know. To be fair we didn't always know the ingredients of what we took and for sure they weren't always MDMA. I think diffrent strokes for diffrent folks is apt, same as some people laugh then fall asleep taking alcohol whilst others want to fight. We could have safe clubs with controlled sales, medical advice, tested and measured doses of drugs etc. I don't know for sure but I have read most deaths attributed to E are caused by either other drugs, drug cocktails or allergic reactions .
FWIW IMHO no way should MDMA be illegal, I can say some of my best nights out, parties etc have been on E. Go to a dance club or rave and you don't see fights unless it's dealers (or pissheads) and cut them out by legalising it. Whereas go to a "drinking" club and it's almost always violent. On the flipside I'm not sure if my views will change when my kids are old enough to show interest.
I'm going to watch the programme first then comment on it's contents. Call me old fashioned.
house music and E were a tremendous combination
house music was tremendous and there was no need to take drugs to be taken by it and dance for hours - always seemed a bit sad to me...
The music was MADE for ecstasy, unless we're talking acid house which would be a different thread..
TG do you think the "vibe" would have been the same if everyone was sober?
[i]house music was tremendous and there was no need to take drugs to be taken by it and dance for hours - always seemed a bit sad to me...[/i]
Really? Have you ever experienced the combination?
Professor Nutt (the world's greatest Bristolian) was on the tellybox yesterday talking about the impending trial. He bigged it up and called it an serious, in-depth study so I am going to be looking past the fact that it's televised - it's not just an opportunity for Keith Allen to be on screen, you know.
I had LSD induced paranoia after someone put a knife to my throat when I was on it at the age of 16. This paranoia and depression lasted 2 years. At 18 I did my first pill, this brought me out of my 2 year hole and things have been ok ever since.
No they haven't, yes they have, dunno. Yes, maybe. What did you say about me?
Really though, if respected, it did me some good.
Edit - not the right time or place.
"For those of you participating at home, now is the time to drop..."
The effects of MDMA on MS sufferers is amazing.
drugs are bad, mmmmmkay. 😀
The effects of MDMA on MS sufferers is amazing.
I remember watching that programme too - incredible to see that guy before and after
edit.. The internet tells me it was actually parkinsons.
The effects of MDMA on [s]MS sufferers[/s] me is amazing.
MDMA & 90 mins in an MRI scanner. No thanks. Saying that being in an MRI is a bit like being at a gabba techno night.
How the hell do you keep still for 90 minutes?
The music was MADE for ecstasy
no it wasn't - find me a producer that says that...
anything sounds good if you are out of it enough - and all djs sound great as well.
83 mgs - equates to roughly 2 pills - double dropping for someone whose never had e must be very intense!!!
double dropping for [s]someone whose never had e must be very intense!!![/s] Keith Allen must be like... breakfast
noteeth - Member
I've never taken MDMA. I spent my raving years entirely straight
You[s]'re doing it[/s] did it wrong.
E has never been my amouse-bouche of choice, but I've had a good few over the years. I didn't watch the prog, but if it's being put to use for the purpose for which it was originally designed (barring tinfoil hat US Military conspiracies) and if it's working, then good.
I've had some truly lovely and exceptional nights on MDMA, usually not in the conventional sense of dancing topless in a club, but more often in the hills of Royal Deeside with good mates, bikes and a bottle of whisky. Although these times are now but fading memories, they're good memories, and that's what humans should be made of.
Similarly, I am able to put on my rose coloured glasses and remember bloody brilliant nights down the pub, with good company, a cheeseboard and several pints.
Add to this that we can have a fantastic time without any of the above and it all boils down to "All Things in Moderation".
Apart from being moderated...
TurnerGuy wrote:
"The music was MADE for ecstasy"
no it wasn't - find me a producer that says that...anything sounds good if you are out of it enough - and all djs sound great as well.
Oh pleeeease! 🙄
No amount of E will make a crap DJ sound good!
A lot of electronic dance music is written solely for dancing to while on drugs and the sound tailored to the effects. (Techno - E, Psychedelic trance - LSD for example.) Not all producers would say this about their music, but I know a load who would!
I spent at least one weekend a month at techno (mainly) clubs on E, from about 95 to 2000 and had the best time of my life. I also met my wife at a club in this period and we're still happy together and still have several friends from our "raving" days..
I stopped taking pills around 2000, 2001 as I was enjoying them less and less, but my love of the music hasn't diminished. The opposite in fact!
I still love techno, psytrance and other forms of EDM with a passion today. Buy mountains of music and still go out to festivals and clubs now and then, but 99% of the time straight. Once you've experienced dance music on E / MDMA, a whole new perspective opens up, that's there forever.
83 mgs - equates to roughly 2 pills
You need a new dealer!
no it wasn't
It most definitely was. Not trying to be rude but was your "raving" done at your local Ritzy listening to stock aitken and waterman?
It was quite an odd experiment don't you think? Where was the music? Where was the dancing?
I know they are trying to sanitise the experiment and keep to a medical ethos but the experiences they.were having could have been heightened by music bad bouncing around.
It was ok, but never really flowed as a programme, looking forward.to tonight's more health benefits slant.
I found the most effective cure for 'wednesday blues' was to go out on MDMA again...
Kept it up for about 4yrs!
One thing I can never forget - is the rancid bitter taste.... no drink can disguise it...
I still love techno, psytrance and other forms of EDM with a passion today. Buy mountains of music and still go out to festivals and clubs now and then, but 99% of the time straight. Once you've experienced dance music on E / MDMA, a whole new perspective opens up, that's there forever.
you have just made my argument - you have a passion for the music now and you still go to festivals and clubs, but 99% of the time straight.
If E was so necessary then why do you not need it now - taking E was an extra to the music/dancing experience, it didn't make it.
What percentage of the population that take illegal drugs have a problem with them?
As a wild guess its lower than
percentage of the population that take alcohol have problems with it
TurnerGuy, the last bit of my post:
Once you've experienced dance music on E / MDMA, a whole new perspective opens up, that's there forever.
kind of answers that.
I liked but didn't really appreciate or understand techno until after dancing to it on E for the first time. After that, all became abundantly clear. Once you've experienced something quite profound - (also applies to LSD) you can't unexperience it. Those new doorways are open for the rest of your life.
Lets ask Bill Hicks about drugs
taking E was an extra to the music/dancing experience, it didn't make it.
Speak for yourself. You would have been doing, pretty much exclusively, in any club in the North west of England in the late eighties and early 90's
+1 Binners listening to music from those days makes the hairs on my arms stand up.
Similar music not experienced on E's doesn't have the same effect
M6TTF - Member
83 mgs - equates to roughly 2 pills - double dropping for someone whose never had e must be very intense!!!
That is pretty poor actually.
Back in the day most pills had 100mg of MDMA, a decent pill was on the way to 120mg....rave/club magazine Eternity used to send popular pills of the time away for testing and publish the results so you knew what was around and roughly how strong (or weak!) they were....a surprising number would have varying ingredients like MDA, amphetamine and MDEA as well as the sought after MDMA/Ecstacy.
One such memorable month they reviewed a pill they'd sent away that came back as having something like 200mg MDMA per tablet!....they wrote a warning regarding its strength....hahaha, that was like a red rag to a bull....just about everybody i knew was out that weekend looking for these pills!
TurnerGuy - have you ever taken it? Or been to a rave where everyone around you has? If so you will understand what everyone is telling you, if not you won't. 8)
I saw the programme last night, thought it was pretty good and balanced. Although most peoples experiences are generally joyous there are some effects that need to be seriously studied if they are looking at using it medicinally - for example the 2-3 days later comedown that can leave you grouchy and exhausted and the different effects it can have on people - that ex-SAS bloke just didn't get it!
I've had a fair bit of MDMA and I am not depressed. The only conclusion that I can draw from this is that MDMA should most certainly be used to treat depression.
I didn't watch the prog, but if it's being put to use for [b]the purpose for which it was originally designed[/b] (barring tinfoil hat US Military conspiracies) and if it's working, then good.
What was the purpose it was originally designed for ?
Ecstacy like the original Doves (way over 125mg I'd guess) is the most aptly named product in the world. Aaaaaaaah.... happy days 😀
There's an amazing video on Youtube from Atomic Jam at the Que Club in Brum back at the peak of the techno scene in 1996, with loads of people I remember. I'm in there at 11.40ish, complete with pony tail and manic chewing gum action! 😆
Still gives me goosebumps watching it.
Similar music not experienced on E's doesn't have the same effect
It's interesting though I think..
I was a right greedy pig with the MDMA in the end, and took it far too far, even getting to the stage of regularly injecting it, and I paid for my greed very sorely indeed.. I still tryed to relive the whole thing briefly again for a few years after the millenium though..
anyhoo... although I disagree with folk who didn't try it attempting to speak authoritatively about it, I truly wonder if the E's made as big a difference as we thought regarding the music..
For many it was so massively loud and new and sonically intoxicating, and the scene was so positive and rebellious and carnival-like, that for a lot of people, the experience of the rave on it's own could have been utterly mindbending and exhilarating..
I'm not saying that the E's did nothing though, cos sitting at home the effects were undeniable..
Do any of the straight ravers ever get reduced to a wide eyed shivering blissed out wreck when they hear the old tunes..?
Injecting MDMA?!!! 😯
What the hell does that feel like? Being fired out of a canon?!
it's not big and it's not clever.. and in fact, when I tried it again in my late 20s it was far too much to cope with and just ended up in blackouts and puking... 😕 😳
Once you've experienced dance music on E / MDMA, a whole new perspective opens up, that's there forever.
+1.
Without wanting to exaggerate, it changed my life. I was 19 back in the mid-90s, going through uni and preparing for a future of career-driven drudgery the minute I graduated. Then some mates suggested I go to a techno night called 'Havok' in Manchester with them. The next few years were a bit of a blur, but it opened by eyes to a whole new world which most people don't even realise exists.
I truly wonder if the E's made as big a difference as we thought regarding the music..
I think so. I wouldn't have become obsessed with amassing a huge collection of techno / electronica if it wasn't for the impression it had on me after hearing it on MDMA.
It's like comparing an old mono wind-up gramophone to fully immersive HD, 3D surround sound in full colour! It can transform a repetitive thump, thump, thump, into the most involving and important thing in your universe, spiritual even sometimes.
What was the purpose it was originally designed for ?
[url= http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa980311.htm ]It was designed as a diet agent[/url]
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA#Medical_use ]Small doses of MDMA are used as an enthogeon to enhance meditation by some Buddihst Monks[/url]
It can transform a repetitive thump, thump, thump, into the most involving and important thing in your universe, spiritual even sometimes.
I've tried explaining this aspect of it to people who've never done it and it's really difficult. What I find most amazing is that it stays with you. Hearing a tune from the past, or sometimes just even thinking about it and it all comes back. Shivers down the spine, hairs standing on end etc. Although non-users would probably be horrified by this and see it as some sort of long term dependence, psychological or neurological damage.
I love how closed minded people can be about music can be.
Some of the most innovative sounds have come from electronic music; yes you could argue that there are drugs associated with the scene. Though I don't think there are many genres of music that aren't associated with drugs of some description.
The only sort of music I can think of is not a true genre, conveyor belt pop. It's probably is clean as a whistle and crap as a pile of well crap.
I think a lot of people, not directly involved, fail to admit how Ecstacy utterly revolutionised a large section of society. In provincial towns and city centres alike, it changed a prevailing culture of football hooliganism, low level street violence and a woeful lowest-common-denominator nightlife into something truly celebratory and ground-breaking.
There was a window, before the gangsters and the guns, that at the time really did feel like utopia. What else could have fueled that?
I'm so glad I was part of it. It was genuinely life-changing
Exactly Dazh!
My bro. had already tried it before me and tried to explain the effects, but I couldn't grasp it (Not trippy like acid, not like amphetamines? What then??). I used to go to allnighters just on Whizz to start with, but I began to feel I was missing out big-time, so did my first pill and it was totally life-changing.
Even though I haven't done MDMA for years, those "rave" experiences have steered my life from then on and electronic dance music is as big a part of me as mountainbiking if not more! 😯
Quite often watch clips on youtube from the good old days of clubbing/raving (Quadrant Park I & II Entropy, Shellys, Pleasuredrome (Birkenhead has never had it so good......and never will again!, Golden, Fallows etc) and they always make the hairs stand up...they were best days of my life when it comes to partying and socialising, fantastic.
If there was a way to legalise it safely cutting out the middlemen, regulating it, pure dosage etc etc I would be back at the clubs tonight looking like that old guy you always used to see in the clubs gurning away who made you look and stare and think 'I dont want to be that old but when I am I hope to be out enjoying myself like he obviously is'!
Doves were my favourite, snowballs were best for getting completely tw*tted IME
Where am I going with this post? Nowhere, I just wanted to get a few things off my chest!
Post club parties then chillouts were just as good as the clubs.....but not compareable!
I cant believe that nobody has mentioned sex on MDMA!! Talk about heightened sensations and getting completely absorbed.
Fantastic days and so glad I experienced it, no regrets, just best memories of my life (apart from my two late teen daughters of course)
.....and that feeling on wednesday knowing it was only two more days til the weekend was a great feeling too!
Do any of the straight ravers ever get reduced to a wide eyed shivering blissed out wreck when they hear the old tunes..?
My point exactly Yunki
Edit: Maybe they do though!