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Are some folk genuinely trying to assert that there is no pressure to conform to the poppy-wearing rule?
Some people really are.
There is pressure to wear a poppy, and not doing so can be seen as a political statement which needs to be justified. This is why every politician wears one from about mid October, and James McClean made the national news.
WHy is this issue such a divisive debate between RW and left wing on here?
I'm not sure it's totally a RW/LW thing. My political and economic views are very much right of centre, but I'm on the other perceived side to this.
Eg, I think Corbyn would be a disaster for economic progress, but he has been nothing but classy and honest when meeting veterans and actually giving a straight answer on things.
[i] My political and economic views are very much right of centre[/i]
Well done Hugo. First step to recovery is to publicly admit your flaws... 😀
So would a good summary be:
Pro Poppy appeal-ers* say it's a RBL/military affair so sorry OP, they can slap a poppy on a tornado if they want.
Pro remembrance-ers* think it's probably not in the best taste and remembrance is about more than just military losses.
Everyone agrees that poppy fascism is wrong even if some doubt it's existence and anyone using either poppy appeal or remembrance for cheap political point scoring should **** right off.
Does that cover it? (barring some amusing side arguments)
*not necessarily mutually exclusive
I'm struggling to understand why this is suddenly a right-left tiff. The anti-monarchy take is understandable given the background to the first world war, anti-religious too. But right left?
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See, Ninifan-eleven?
Why isn't the same level of rememberance applied to all lives lost during colonialism?
Or more recently, lives lost as a result of illegal wars whose main beneficiaries are corporate concerns in the arms, private military and oil and gas sectors (and the poppy trade in Afghanistan)
Since the people who make up the armed forces act on behalf of 'Queen and Country', why are charities necessary to support them after they have served their purpose?
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jivehoneyjive - Member
Since the people who make up the armed forces act on behalf of 'Queen and Country', why are charities necessary to support them after they have served their purpose?
An excellent question.
jivehoneyjive - Member
Since the people who make up the armed forces act on behalf of 'Queen and Country', why are charities necessary to support them after they have served their purpose?
" ... Country"
Or you can always ask why does the British govt give out aid money to other countries?
That photo above really sums up the Labour Party's disrespectful attitude to Remembrance Sunday - Jim Callaghan's badly made droopy poppy wreath is frankly a disgrace, and clearly an insult to our War Veterans.
In contrast Maggie's wreath, gawd bless her, is a stout well-made perfectly spherical example which does Our Heroes proud.
And compared to the two dodgy crumpled ones on the left the poppy on Maggie's lapel is magnificent too - as you would expect.
So much nonsense being spouted on Facebook and the like this year. It's distasteful and depressing.
Some people seem to believe that the poppy is some sort of war celebration. It's actually the opposite; the clue's in the name, "Remembrance Day," the whole point is to remember what happened and hopefully continue to learn from our mistakes.
The sale of the poppy is a charity intended to provide help and support for those lucky enough to survive the war, and as JHJ succinctly puts, have broadly been hung out to dry since by a populace and government who increasingly doesn't care.
The white poppy seems at first glance to be a positive alternative, but it's pretty... I was going to say "insidious" but that's maybe a little harsh; let's go with "misleading." They're riding on the coat-tails of a long'established charity who I can't imagine make particularly large sums of money in the first place. The bulk of the money made from white poppies goes straight back into making more poppies and the leftovers go towards funding education about their manifesto. The Peace Pledge Union's goals are laudable, I just don't understand why they can't choose one of the other 364 days of the year to have their own Day. I'd probably applaud anyone wearing one the rest of the year, but on Remembrance day it's either massively disrespectful or simply ignorant IMHO. [url= http://www.ppu.org.uk/whitepoppy/white_faq.html ]Further reading[/url].
Oh, and,
I don't wear a poppy, generally. I'll throw some loose change into a collection tin perhaps, but whilst it's no doubt a worthy charity it's not high on my list of charities to support (after all, I can't possibly support all of them). I personally don't like the idea of enforced grieving, largely because it's often less about actually remembering and more about making people feel better that they've done their bit for another year. I don't feel the need to wear a "I paid a pound to charity" badge to prove that to everyone else.
They're riding on the coat-tails of a long'established charity who I can't imagine make particularly large sums of money in the first place.
About 30-40 million I think most of us would call this large
on Remembrance day it's either massively disrespectful or simply ignorant IMHO
Its really not and that is pretty harsh. Let folk remeber how they want lest you are part of the "poppy fascism" that permeates this date/time of the year.
As for another day???? why not remember on remembrance day , with a poppy of your choice. The key is to remember
In 1926, a few years after the introduction of the red poppy in the UK, the idea of pacifists making their own poppies was put forward by a member of the No More War Movement (and that the black centre of the British Legion's red poppies should be imprinted with "No More War"). Their intention was to remember casualties of all wars, with the added meaning of a hope for the end of all wars; the red poppy, they felt, signified only the British military dead. However they did not pursue the idea. The first white poppies were sold by the Co-operative Women's Guild in 1933. The Peace Pledge Union (PPU) took part in their distribution from 1934, and white poppy wreaths were laid from 1937 as a pledge to peace that war must not happen again.
The key is to remember
We still get a bank holiday in France.
Yup, Junkyard, a bit over the top there, Cougar. Red, white, none - your choice.
Edit: Ernie, I chose that photo as a symbol of cross-party unity but you've managed to distort the message as an allegory of what's happening on this thread, very good. 🙂
I pay my £1 every year, in remembrance to my Grandad. Sjt James Grainger, Durham Light Infantry, killed by shrapnel at the battle of the Somme 19th December 1915, buried at Hooge Crater near Ypres.
If it wasn't for WW1 I'd maybe have actually met him.
He looks quite sad, I wonder if he knew, of something bad, to come.
[url= https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5603/15582263147_c528f7d21e.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5603/15582263147_c528f7d21e.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/pJXaXr ]img021[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/jimmygrainger/ ]jimmyg352[/url], on Flickr
My family will be at Durham Cathedral on 19th December to remember him on the 100th anniversary of his death. I'll keep on wearing a red poppy. (ok, wristband)
So much nonsense being spouted on Facebook and the like this year. It's distasteful and depressing.
LinkedIn truly is shameless. People using remembrance themed sales/PR pictures in order to promote their own company leaves a foul taste.
About 30-40 million I think most of us would call this large
Ok, I didn't realise it was that much. I might see if I can track down where it all goes.
Its really not and that is pretty harsh. Let folk remeber how they want lest you are part of the "poppy fascism" that permeates this date/time of the year.
I'm not stopping them. Rather, I'd prefer that they made an informed decision; from a lot of posts on FB it'd appear that many people don't understand what they're supporting. It's worth reading the link on their own site.
This is what it's about.
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It's what it should always be about. Reflecting on the total and absolute human devastation caused by war. But it's not, we're at a point in history where the west looks on as more people suffer at the hands of a brutal, warped version of an ideology. But because of our lack of attention to the lessons of history, our interference, it has caused a situation of our making and we watch on. Helpless and pointless.
Ok, I didn't realise it was that much. I might see if I can track down where it all goes.
There annual report is available online.
About 30-40 million I think most of us would call this large
If your talking about the legion you're a way off the mark there!?
(and that the black centre of the British Legion's red poppies should be imprinted with "No More War").
Why don't the Royal British Legion adopt that idea?
Surely 'No More War' should be universally popular?
It used to say Haig Fund when I was young. A rather nasty irony there...
And £40 mill is pretty spot on for 2012, [b]Piemonster[/b] as their quoted figure for the poppy appeal..
Why don't the Royal British Legion adopt that idea?
Reading between the lines on the Peace Pledge Union, I rather get the impression that they don't like being dictated what to do by other organisations with their own agendas. Either that or they're just being grumpy and obstinate. Hard to say, really.
Surely 'No More War' should be universally popular?
But it isn't universally popular. Every British Prime Minister in the last 35 years has sent the military overseas to fight in wars. And a substantial chunk of the electorate has supported them in doing so.
The wars we fight these days bring huge levels of suffering and death to foreigners but very little suffering to our own citizens, who mostly go about completely unaffected by them. So they are deemed to be something of a nonissue by many people.
Maybe in the interests of decreasing the number of injured servicemen, the Royal British Legion could arrange exchange visits to war torn areas, to show the horrific consequence of an enterprise which is only profitable to a shielded minority?
A long term strategy in the prevention rather than cure mold...
I'm struggling to work out what Cougar's problem is with the white poppy and the Peace Pledge Union. I'd never looked them up before but their aims seem to be exactly what I would hope/expect them to be. 😕
[quote=Cougar ]I'd prefer that they made an informed decision;.....it'd appear that many people don't understand what they're supporting.Which is what many folk are saying about folk that wear red poppies.
Don't see the problem with the Peace Pledge Union principles nor timing. A time when we remember the victims of war seems a very appropriate time to promote peace. Promotion of peace doesn't seem disrespectful of rememberence - rather quite the opposite.
Cougar » I'd prefer that they made an informed decision;.....it'd appear that many people don't understand what they're supporting.
scotroutes » Which is what many folk are saying about folk that wear red poppies.
I agree with both of those statements. Poppies are now in the domain of social media, tabloids included. Are you a limp-wristed white-poppy wearing, bicycle-riding traitor? Or are you a fine upstanding red-poppy-wearing, red-blooded Porsche-driving hero?
Sad that red poppies have been co-opted by Nationalists, bullies, and assorted political agitators and gossips.
As individuals we humans seem to walk a narrow line, each side of which is a pit of inescapable tribalism. We are very welcome in either of these pits as long as we wear the 'correct' colours and be sure to vilify and hurt those who don't.
Once in the pit, the warmth of fellow bodies and the stream of tribal consciousness allows us little time to reflect and think for ourselves. In fact why even bother. We are among firm friends now. Individual thoughts will soon be ironed out.
This mindset is naturally attracted to war, where there is no greater purpose than to promote and defend the Nation (tribe). So once this mindset is convinced that (say) a red poppy is a symbol of respect for the Nation, for heroism, and for loyalty - then it also becomes a flag. The absence of which is a red rag (sic) to the mindset.
Now he or she must look about for an opposing flag. What is this? A WHITE (flag) poppy??? 'GRRRR, not red, but WHITE????! This must be the colour of cowards, traitors, vile degenerate disrespectful scum!'
So it is that most of us humans are afflicted by tribalism. Tribalism facilitates war. It is doubly depressing that even the memory of war leads to the same type of tribalism that encouraged it. It also discourages (even punishes) individual thought.
Left/Right?
Black/white?
Car/bike?
Hetero/dyke?
Meat/veg?
God/Devil?
Red/white?
You can see how wearing both a red poppy and a white poppy makes certain synapses fuse.
I gave up wearing a white poppy as you may as well have worn a big badge that said shout at me in the street please except it was more effective than that
I dont wear a poppy I always rememeber
In answer to the OP -
A poppy emblazoned on a machine of war/defence (delete as allied) seems to me rife with the potential for interpretive ambiguity. I do however personally assume it to be a well-meant gesture by the armed forces involved.
It's not specific to the poppy but you only have to look a the Sun's ludicrous campaign against Corbyn's supposed failure to bow enough to see how politicised all of this has become. If there's going to be a national patriotism contest, I'm not playing.
It's not specific to the poppy but you only have to look a the Sun's ludicrous campaign against Corbyn's supposed failure to bow enough to see how politicised all of this has become. If there's going to be a national patriotism contest, I'm not playing.
As an aside it just goes to show that the media game is one Corbyn can't win. I believe his top button was done up, he was wearing a nice suit, sang the national anthem and talked to the soldiers, but that's not good enough apparently. It's shameful to use Remembrance for this kind of political mischief-making.
As an aside it just goes to show that the media game is one Corbyn can't win. I believe his top button was done up, he was wearing a nice suit, sang the national anthem and talked to the soldiers, but that's not good enough apparently. It's shameful to use Remembrance for this kind of political mischief-making.
I agree, the lowest form of journalism/politics. I think "poppy fascism" is just a TV phenomenon, I've been walking about in military uniform for the past few days without one because I forgot, nobody's mentioned it and I wouldn't expect anyone to. Most folk I know think it's an individual choice. It's a shame the Beeb seem to have kowtowed to shouty internet types, in the past they'd just have been nutters shouting at the telly and writing "disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" letters. It would be nice if the DG had the backbone to set a policy of individual choice and explain why. Regarding the Tornado, it's a very visible symbol and commemorative paint schemes on aircraft are nothing new, but I can see why it might be seen as distasteful.
"Poppy fascism" is just another form of what has been coined as "virtue signalling" - it is really no different from silly hashtag campaigns, petitions etc the main purpose of which is show how "moral" the signer is, rather than to actually achieve anything. Just an annoyance of modern life that grates somewhat.
I must admit I have not encountered "poppy facism"on the streets either and have seen relatively few poppies in South West London.
Some great posts immediately above.
It would be nice if the DG had the backbone to set a policy of individual choice and explain why.
TV presenters are not supposed to visibly support individual charities when on air - e.g. no daffodil badges for Marie Curie. It's not clear why the British Legion should be an exception to this rule.
@grum it has become politicised this year and Corbyn has only himself to blame. He has spent his political career positioning himself as anti establishment which gives him and the Labour party a massive problem. Now he is the leader he is part of the establishment, he has responsibilities and things are expected of him. You can see how important this to voters on the left by the way in which he's back-pedalling, or trying to. Aside from the bowing issue (and it was a very very token small nod) it was noted his singing of the national anthem at the ceremony was very weak.
It's very very mistaken to see Rememberence as a left/right issue, there just as many fervent supporters on the left and as on the right. Just like the white van man fiasco at the GE.
Corbyn is a republican but "it's a battle I'm not fighting". He put his personal views to one side and respected the protocol of the ceremony including singing the royalist song. Pragmatic good sense followed by meeting the veterans. The press (just remember your paper is Tory) predictably found fault but the people whose views he represents will think for themselves.
Edukator - true Corbyn acted as expected with respect and dignity. What's the issue?
Is it the same fascists who make people buy/wear a poppy that force people to read the gutter press, I wonder? Whatever happened to the nation's backbone? Are we now a nation of invertebrates?
Now he is the leader he is part of the establishment, he has responsibilities and things are expected of him.
I see. Could you tell us what angle he should bow at, and the required decibels for singing the anthem?
Why is the Lion in the Royal British Legion's crest poking its tongue out?
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I doubt even that fiend Jeremy Corbyn would sink that low
"If there's going to be a national patriotism contest, I'm not playing."
This for me , I have always been conflicted by the Poppy brother in the Army, Mother and Father evacuees who lost family in WW2 so on that side pro Poppy but on the other hand always concerned by the descent into Jingoism at this time of year .
Now the balance has come down squarely on not playing any part in what has become a massive display of egotism by politicians and tribalism from the press. Truth integrity and "respect for the fallen" take second place to spin and slur . I will stand and remember tomorrow but I will not wear a Poppy.
" Just like the white van man fiasco at the GE." is that the one where the right wing press described a woman from an economically challenged background who grew up on a council estate as elitist?
Now he is the leader he is part of the establishment, he has responsibilities and things are expected of him.I see. Could you tell us what angle he should bow at, and the required decibels for singing the anthem?
I'm afraid I can't help with the latter, but this appears to show established protocol...
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When you respect your minute of silence at 11 tomorrow spare a thought for Helmut Schmidt. He's died. Having survived action on the eastern front before being captured at the battle of the bulge. He was one those who brought an end to the cold war which became quite warm when he was in power. He was rarely ever seen without a cigarette in his mouth but still lived to 96.
He was rarely ever seen without a cigarette in his mouth but still lived to 96.
He stockpiled menthol cigarettes when the EU banned them. He spent approx.£6,000 buying enough to last him 3 years based on his 40 a day habit. That was just over 2.5 years ago.
I would like to sequence Scmidts genome
Having survived action on the eastern front before being captured at the battle of the bulge
Slight fabrication if that's what you read. My understanding he was briefly assigned to a flak unit near Leningrad before going back to Germany to teach. He was captured by the British about a month from the end of the war in Hamburg. He was also supposedly an enthusiastic follower of National Socialism and was praised for this by his superiors. He did good things afterwards for Germany but lets not whitewash his war record.
To go back to the OP, when I was in the UK I used to donate every year but rarely wear a poppy in later years.
On the subject of war in general though, here in Luxembourg the debate is quite interesting. War memorials list names killed fighting both against and for the Germans. Luxembourg was proclaimed as part of Germany so young men were conscripted and in total 12000 served (from a country of 290000 at the time) and 3000 died. Not sure how many men fighting for the allies or resistance died (I do know only 1% of jews survived tho). Interestingly they do have remembrance day but it's very much a gloss of all wars to avoid differentiating between "good" and "bad".
The whole bow-gate thing actually cheers me. If that's the best they've got to smear Corbyn, he must be in a pretty solid place.
you only have to look a the Sun
See, that's your first mistake. (-:
He stockpiled menthol cigarettes when the EU banned them.
Banned where? They're readily available in the UK and there were shedloads of different ones for sale in France last time I was there.
Work today - no poppies, red poppies, one white poppy so far and a choice of whether people want to gather together at 11:00 or not.
The fascists have been repelled again - bravo!
Cougar - ModeratorThe whole bow-gate thing actually cheers me. If that's the best they've got to smear Corbyn, he must be in a pretty solid place.
It's called news selling otherwise media people will be made redundant.
Ya, it's a chicken and egg thing for JC because without media he would just be another well paid politician with several wives/mistresses whatever you want to call them nowadays. He needs the media to stir the shite up a bit ...
Why is J.Corby (not Jesus Christ) important anyway?
I have no clue why this bloke is important after all he is just another politician.
The media is trying to put everyone in their place by teaching everyone a lesson in being "king maker" ...
They want to be seen as the people that can put you up then bring you down again.
Again why is JC important again?
What's with all this shite portraying JC as some sort of new thing in politic? As if he has answers to everything?
Is everyone so eager to cling on to shite nowadays?
🙄
one white poppy so far
I hope you made a sneery patronising comment to them like you did to me when I suggested I might wear one.
See, that's your first mistake. (-:
I'm not a reader of the Sun, but you tend to see it a lot in newsagents, cafes, workplaces etc. Trying to pretend the Sun doesn't matter as long as you ignore it is a bit silly - it's bought by 6 million people a day or something.
I have no clue why this bloke is important after all he is just another politician.
He's the Leader of Her Majesty's Most Loyal Opposition.
HTH.
ransos - Member
I have no clue why this bloke is important after all he is just another politician.He's the Leader of Her Majesty's Most Loyal Opposition.
HTH.
Ya, in that case he must bow to the Queen!
Bow then appreciate that he is the Queen's subject.
As Queen's subject he should know his place.
But first he must bow properly and not trying to choose between should I bow or should I not bow ... you bow!
😛
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Banned where? They're readily available in the UK and there were shedloads of different ones for sale in France last time I was there.
Throughtout the EU, date of ban has been moved back, Schmidt bought in anticipation, I understand but all governments will be required to implement a ban in a few years.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-26355419 ]See initial report here[/url]
[url= http://www.thecommentator.com/article/3940/former_german_leader_helmut_schmidt_buys_38_000_menthol_cigarettes_to_avoid_eu_ban ]Schmidt story[/url]
We went along today for the ceremony at 11. About 500 people, the local regiments, veterans, local dignitaries and about 5 pigeons (doves). One guy wore a poppy, a few wore bleuets (the local equivalent). Medals were handed out, the conflicts quoted (the world wars, decolonisation wars and regional conflicts France has been involved in). We will remember.