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I don't wear a poppy anymore - largely because I got tired of people having a go at others who didn't wear one. The fact the poppy is only for British and Commonwealth troops also rankles. To my mind it has been hijacked somewhat by the spirit of war-mongery that has infected British politics since 2001.
As someone else mentioned they did, I have very often sat by a village or town war memorial and remembered the loss of so many lives. It is horrific to think of the waste. One of my more recent visits was to the German cemetery in Cannock. Just as moving...
The key phrase in rememberence for me is "Lest we forget." I have not forgotten. I remember most the hatred for war and loss of life that most veterans I met from two world wars expressed.
And no OP, I don't think you are wrong.
Eloquently put lemonysam.
Respect, thankfulness and gratitude. Whether one chooses to publicly show or not.
As for the OP, so long as the intent behind it was good, I have no issue with it. I have more issue with our political and corporate elite, wearing poppies and placing wreaths, who clearly profit from warmongering. Hypocrisy, pure and utter hypocrisy.
I disagree with poppies on a warplane. (To me) its to symbolise those lost to war, who didn't have a choice. The futility but in a modern sense those that join to defend but do not have a pick of what wars they may go on to serve in.
It's loosing its message when it's put on a pointy-pain thing.
The key phrase in rememberence for me is "Lest we forget." I have not forgotten. I remember most the hatred for war and loss of life that most veterans I met from two world wars expressed.
THis go see the graveyards of WW1 and just look at the size and number there and then realise it was one days battle
Waris generally just a waste of life and we rarely engage in a "noble war"
Can't understand how a simple act of rememberance creates annual angst although this year seemed a bit calmer fortunately
If you want froth, buy a bloody cappuccino
(Having said that not a fan of the poppy on the jet - that is a bit like a chocolate topping)
I think Woppit had it early on.
Can't understand how a simple act of rememberance creates annual angst
The obvious answer is because it isn't that simple.
In its simplest form it is a chance to remember the british and commonwealth service men and women who have died. Many take it in that light an that seems like a fair thing to do.
But then it gets complicated.
What about civilians? And are we still so jingoistic that we can't spare a thought for enemy soldiers in the same situation?
Then sadly the rhetoric of war starts to creep in from some quarters with words and phrases like 'heroes' and 'fought to keep us free' which many find difficult to swallow.
Maybe it's time to rethink how we approach the act of remembrance as a nation?
No it is simple. It's a day of remembrance. Who you choose to remember is your choice, no one is going to stop you. The more people who do take time to remember the less chance we have of repeating such horrors.
Turn up and pay your respects with the others. Your's may be to the military dead on one sides, all sides, their civilian support, the innocent victims of war both human, animal and environmental. No one can stop you.
No it is simple. It's a day of remembrance. Who you choose to remember is your choice,
You can choose to approach it that way if you wish and I agree with you. However, it isn't simple as it is inextricably linked with the Royal British Legion whose focus is on British service men and women as is the focus of the vast majority of official events.
[quote=teamhurtmore ]Can't understand how a simple act of rememberance creates annual angst although this year seemed a bit calmer fortunatelyInteresting observation because the "event" itself seems to be growing, starting earlier, more focus, more lead-up. Mind you, the same was being said about halloween last week and there's an annual moan about Christmas, Easter and now Mothers/Fathers/pick-a-relative-of-your-choice day. Maybe it's just that we're all so "connected" these days that we're all seeing more things happening.
It does seem that there would be an understandable upswell in the size of armistice remembrance as we go through the centenary of WW1. I guess we can expect that to continue until 2018.
You can choose to approach it that way if you wish and I agree with you. However, it isn't simple as it is inextricably linked with the Royal British Legion whose focus is on British service men and women as is the focus of the vast majority of official events.
Yes the red poppy is the symbol of the RBL and the majority is therefore military. There has been an increase in the remembrance of others too, just watch the Whitehall Parade to see. The more people who attend these remembrance parades and show their respects to others the less military dominated it will become and people will become to understand that war effects all.
mattsccm - Member
Can't think of any group more entitled to remember than the military.
The families.
Which is why I wear a poppy.
Being older than most people here I have a long list of granduncles and family killed in WW1 and of my parent's generation in WW2. Both G/fathers destroyed by WW1 - one from side effects from gassing several years after, the other from what's now PTSD.
I remember both the dead, the maimed, and also the bastards who profited by sending them into hell.
Can't understand how a simple act of rememberance creates annual angst although this year seemed a bit calmer fortunately
That "angst" is people thinking about the meaning of the poppy, thinking about the lives it represents and coming to their own conclusions about how they wish to remember them. If you think that unthinking acquiescence would be preferable then I think that's rather a shame.
I wore poppy for few years largely because my Jewish colleague wears one every year but he then asked me to do the same.
Nowadays I wear one when I feel like or if I am in the mood of wearing one.
Occasionally I kind of thought of the death but sometimes I thought all the dead got away too easily through death. Dying is easy it is living that is hard.
No it is simple. It's a day of remembrance. Who you choose to remember is your choice, no one is going to stop you.
Exactly,
yes, it's linked to the RBL. The earth's round.....so what?
TO THE MEMORY OF THE FALLEN AND THE FUTURE OF THE LIVINGYour Royal British Legion poppy helps us to provide thousands of modern veterans, Service men, women and their families with vital advice and support. This year don't just wear a poppy for the memory of the fallen, wear it for the future of the living.
If that's so offensive (?) ignore it, or give money to another charity that looks after other countries' veterans. Ironically, you have the free choice to do just that....hmmm....
That "angst" is people thinking about the meaning of the poppy, thinking about the lives it represents and coming to their own conclusions about how they wish to remember them.
Exactly, that is the situation.
If you think that unthinking acquiescence would be preferable then I think that's rather a shame.
Who is thinking that? The sheep?
Hmm, lot of people here conflating remembrance with the poppy appeal.
Not the same thing, never were, completley different origins with different purposes (the work of the RBL still unfortunately being of relevance today)
yes completely different expect the poppy is sold by the RBL and they get the money from it but yes apart fromt that not the same thing.
The two have merged due to what the RBL has done so its not really surprising folk conflate the two - the money raised being used to help ex service personnel and their families to retrain and for various other reasons
See if you can guess what logo they[RBL] use without clicking!
ISTR that when father-in-law was terminally ill, the RBL were quick to offer help. He died with scars from Arnhem, mental and physical, that he never talked about. That's the third reason, it too is harder to talk about.
[i]The more people who do take time to remember the less chance we have of repeating such horrors.[/i]
If only that were true, we have been continually at war since the end of WW2, even today our defence minister is holding power point presentations to reluctant MP to get them to vote to drop bombs on people in Syria.
Perhaps even by that Tornado with the pretty poppies on it....
ninfan - MemberHmm, lot of people here conflating remembrance with the poppy appeal.
Yup- the thread's about the poppy appeal, not about remembrance in general.
grum - MemberI'm not really talking about what the legion does with the money, I'm talking about what the poppy symbolises in the media/public consciousness.
Some people get it wrong, I know, but it remains that the poppy appeal is not just about the world wars. In fact these days, it's mostly about modern wars.
See if you can guess what logo they[RBL] use without clicking!
Err, thats my point - the Poppy appeal has always been run by the RBL group of charities, largely set up out of the failure of government to look after injured servicemen and the families of those lost, as relevant now as ever before.
The act of remembrance is a national one that predates both the poppy appeal and the RBL
THM - who do you think you are to dictate how people should feel about the poppy?
The more people who do take time to remember the less chance we have of repeating such horrors
I'd argue the opposite. In our national media it has largely become a jingoistic patriotism competition in which we are made to feel guilty if we don't 'support our brave boys' and by extension whatever possibly illegal/immoral military endeavour we are currently involved in. Just look at the fury directed at Jeremy Corbyn for not wearing one.
I have also recently seen revisionist attempts by the right to 'rebrand' the First World War as a noble cause. It's all part of the same propaganda.
I might wear a white one if I can find it.
Radio 4 is quite interesting on the subject at the moment
All sane people have considered that the remembrance service is too militaristic since the 1930s, and the poppy is a symbol of rememberance and of the associated militarism
Grum, no idea what you are taking about. As I have said, there is no need for all the froth. People can do what they want. You can make you gesture of a white poppy if you want to - good luck to you, hope it makes you feel good.
It's a simple time of remembrance combined with an opportunity for the RBL to raise money for a good cause. Mark it as you see fit. As I said, go to Starbucks if you need some froth.
As for the propaganda poppycock - we have become much, much more discerning and critical in how we look at history and the wars in particular. Less and less of a noble cause, more and more of a pitiful waste of lives. That's a good thing.
War is a horrible, horrible thing.
a noble cause.
Helping protect France and Belgium from invasion by Germany wasn't a noble cause?
Gove would be proud of that simplistic notion of the causes of WW1 Ninfan
no need for all the froth
Is everyone who opposes your view frothing?
Grum made his point calmly and rationally without ad homing /shooting the messenger. Perhaps you should give it a go and forth a little less yourself as you seem to be getting a little upset here.
simplistic notion of the causes of WW1
Ok, fine, maybe you could explain to me which of the 'causes' of WW1 necessitated the invasion of France and Belgium by Germany?
Pretty much WW1 was about Kaiser Bill feeling inferior and emasculated because of his withered arm and a need to prove himself more powerful than his British (Okay of German extraction, but you know what I mean.) cousins.
Ok, fine, maybe you could explain to me which of the 'causes' of WW1 necessitated the invasion of France and Belgium by Germany?
Would it not make more sense to explain [mis] leading questions first?
Probably better you debate the great "withered arm" theory of WW1 with the informed poster above then explain WW2 in terms of the number of testicles of Hitler whilst ignoring facts
TBH I've never really thought about the Poppy and it's meaning until I read this post.
I live in Qingdao, China, so buying isn't an option.
If I was in Beijing though, I can (Embassy is there, and they sell them (or used to))
But, the points raised on this thread, reminded me of story sometime ago.
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2010/nov/10/david-cameron-poppy-china-michael-white ]http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2010/nov/10/david-cameron-poppy-china-michael-white[/url]
The Poppy, isn't just for the British who died (maybe depending on your point of view)
Hmm, lot of people here conflating remembrance with the poppy appeal.
It's rather difficult not to as the two have become so intertwined. Which is one of the reasons we have disagreement over it.
Probably better you debate the great "withered arm" theory of WW1 with the informed poster above then explain WW2 in terms of the number of testicles of Hitler whilst ignoring facts
Was being a little flippant Junky. No twisting of others knickers was intended. 🙁
Whilst not being as informed as others on here in terms of the detailed causality of the First World War - I am a little more informed than my flippancy would indicate. As for the Second World War being caused by n-1 in Hitlers scrotum... 🙂 It's satisfying if not compelling!
You can make you gesture of a white poppy if you want to - good luck to you, hope it makes you feel good.
Oh **** off you patronising ****.
As I said, go to Starbucks if you need some froth.
If you want froth, buy a bloody cappuccino
Hilarious. So hilarious you made the same 'joke' twice.
Why don't you go and tell 91-year-old war veteran Harry Leslie Smith there's no need for all his 'frothing'?
OVER THE LAST 10 years the sepia tone of November has become blood-soaked with paper poppies festooning the lapels of our politicians, newsreaders and business leaders. The most fortunate in our society have turned the solemnity of remembrance for fallen soldiers in ancient wars into a justification for our most recent armed conflicts.The American civil war's General Sherman once said that "war is hell", but unfortunately today's politicians in Britain use past wars to bolster our flagging belief in national austerity or to compel us to surrender our rights as citizens, in the name of the public good.
Oh * off you patronising *.
If you're going to start replying to THM's posts with that you'll soon need a new asterisk key.
As for the propaganda poppycock - we have become much, much more discerning and critical in how we look at history and the wars in particular. Less and less of a noble cause, more and more of a pitiful waste of lives. That's a good thing.War is a horrible, horrible thing.
Can't see much sign of this.
The poppyfest at this time of year does the exact opposite of what you say. It rebrands war as something heroic, noble and kind of spiritual.
The language constantly used deliberately removes the brutal reality of war. People didn't die, they 'fell' or were 'lost' or made the 'ultimate sacrifice'.
Any soldier who is injured in war is automatically a hero - even if they aren't. They are idolised by the media and the establishment.
It's daft. It's doing the complete opposite of what you claim.
I refuse as I really object to the #PoppyFascism thing which comes hand in hand with the whole thing.
This is how I feel about it. The feeling that you are being disrespectful to something by choosing not to commemorate it doesn't sit well. If I were campaigning against the military/war veterans/Britain in general, then that's one thing, but not wearing a poppy is not wearing a poppy, not this.
My family is Catholic Northern Irish and so I would have a perfectly good reason for not wearing one if socially forced to - eg news reader, sports person, etc.
However, the reason I don't wear one is because people DO feel socially compelled to. It's gone too far, it's gone against free choice, and it's put me off.
The absolute human cost of war has massively decreased over the last half century, whilst this is of absolutely no comfort to those effected by it still, it does mean we as a race have learnt and continue to learn our lessons. The human cost of learning these lessons for us particularly but many other European nations, has been to our generations unimaginable. Remembrance is simply a recognition of the lessons learnt and an act of thanks to those who had the misfortune to have been taught them.
Remembrance is simply a recognition of the lessons learnt and an act of thanks to those who had the misfortune to have been taught them.
Except it's not. That's what it [i]should[/i] be.
The absolute human cost of war has massively decreased over the last half century, whilst this is of absolutely no comfort to those effected by it still, it does mean we as a race have learnt and continue to learn our lessons. The human cost of learning these lessons for us particularly but many other European nations, has been to our generations unimaginable. Remembrance is simply a recognition of the lessons learnt and an act of thanks to those who had the misfortune to have been taught them.
Maybe for the people with the technological superiority, the rest are far less fortunate and unfortunately they are often on the receiving end of our 'advancements'. In fact we have just refined what was started 75 odd years ago, theres very little difference in application between a drone and a V1.
Homs, Berlin, what's the difference really?
However, the reason I don't wear one is because people DO feel socially compelled to. It's gone too far, it's gone against free choice, and it's put me off.
You have exercised your free choice and chosen not to wear a poppy. Free choice lives on...Doesnt it?
I walked passed poppy sellers every day without wearing a poppy this week. No one accosted me, no one abused me. They allowed me to exercise my own free choice too. So I donated to RBL but didn't wear a poppy (actually because I forgot). There was no social pressure applied in any way. Ditto today, I am free to go to a service, go for a walk, ride my bike at 11:00 whatever.
On the 11th, there will be an "opportunity" for anyone at work to gather for a moments silence at 11:00. Again no compulsion - merely the choice and a simple act of remembrance.
There was no social pressure applied in any way. Ditto today, I am free to go to a service, go for a walk, ride my bike at 11:00 whatever.On the 11th, there will be an "opportunity" for anyone at work to gather for a moments silence at 11:00. Again no compulsion - merely the choice and a simple act of remembrance.
Excellent choose to not observe the silence and go about your business asking folk and acting as normal
Let us know if there is any social pressure applied to you or folk just act a they would if you did thi 5 minutes later or earlier
Complex.
Do I want to remember the dead? Yes. But All the dead.
Would I prefer it if the whole poppy thing had become less socially obligatory and therefore no longer a mark of genuine thought about the fallen? Again - yes.
But the poppies around the ToL last year were one of the most moving things I have seen.
But perhaps the poppy imagery and links to the RBL add a parochial jingoistic element to remembrance?
But I am with the OP. On that plane it's wrong.
Poppy on an armed forces plane to remind us about the scarifices of the armed forces doesn't seem wrong in my opinion. Perhaps current members of the armed forces shouldn't be allowed to promote the poppy.
You lot think too much ... You either wear one or you don't. Simple.
I wear one if I feel like and I don't wear one if I don't feel like, not because I don't respect the dead but because I am in the wrong mood of the day.
Last few years I wore one but this year I have not as I was just not in the mood.
🙄
You lot think too much ... You either wear one or you don't. Simple.
Shh, chewkw, shh.... 😀
Better than the alternative of bowing to social pressure and just wearing one without thinking about it at all.You lot think too much
Steady now chewk and THM think we should not think about this. Granted it has taken 4 pages of them thinking* and commenting on this to decide that but who am I to argue that we should just act without thinking
Junkyard - lazarusSteady now chewk and THM think we should not think about this. Granted it has taken 4 pages of them thinking* and commenting on this to decide that but who am I to argue that we should just act without thinking
Few days ago I think I saw a clip of Barbara Windsor (think somewhere on the interweb) commented on those people who didn't wear poppy, she basically said " ... they can better sod off ..." something like that. Why is she important?
To be honest I think people should just simply relax as we all respect the dead.
No need to go high horse nor go about disrespecting like stamping on the poppy ...
If you are in the mood of wearing one then wear one otherwise as you are.
Are some folk genuinely trying to assert that there is no pressure to conform to the poppy-wearing rule?
Walk down your high street, go to the pub, sit on a train. Try to work out what percentage of the average population was wearing a poppy.
Now switch on the TV and watch the news, sports etc. What percentage of presenters are wearing a poppy?
The ones that annoy me tend to be those that ...
1. Insist on others to wear one.
2. The one openly disrespecting others who wear one.
I rather like to put them in a tiny room to see how they deal with each others.
Well the Beeb seemed to get the mood right - just caught the edited coverage of the Cenotaph
Dimbelby concluded along the lines - "its not the glory but the horror of war that we are remembering - lest we forget"
Well said that man!
But did Corbyn bow enough?
Dimbelby concluded along the lines - "its not the glory but the horror of war that we are remembering - lest we forget"
So I'd imagine they didn't forget to have plents of groups representing the main victims of war in the ceremony - which is civilians.
So read the first page then jumped in here.
Not sure about the modern significance of the poppy but in todays service we had a poinient (sp) serman about the first soilder killed in bosnia trying to help some pregnant women.
I was more annoyed by the people feeling the need to document the part of the service at the the mamorial, even in the minutes silence that stupid camera sound comming from peoples phones.
Now if only some had written a song questioning war and purpose.
[quote=bigdean ]Now if only some had written a song questioning war and purpose.
No point when this has already been done
But did Corbyn bow enough?
I think it was the jacket that upset everyone
[img] 
[/img]
The thing that always sits funny in my head is that you never see a politician not wearing one but they are the ****ers sending people to die. Them and the queen at the cenotaph, without them we wouldnt be having wars. Wearing a poppy is not working for them, they have their 2 min silence then go off to send more to die.
anagallis_arvensis - Member
Them and the queen at the cenotaph, without them we wouldnt be having wars.
What if wars come to you?
Would you be willing to change your identity to one that is dictated to you?
Thats a different story and I suppose as those that lived through WW2 pass away I just worry that thecevents of the last 20 yrs mean kessons havent been learnt.
chewkw - Member
What if wars come to you?...
Got any examples involving the UK? (Not counting those where we were stirring the pot first)
anyone know what NCB means?
Jeremy Corbyn went up to Horseguards to meet/talk with WW2 veterans while the other politicians went for VIP lunch
[img]
[/img]
National Coal Board
anyone know what NCB means?
Just someone being a prize t1t. Again.
cheers, so it was just someone using Remembrance Sunday to score a cheap political point
classy
but relevant to the OP as it sums up how much its become an idealogical football that (mostly) the rightwing nutters use as a weapon to attack those they dislike
cheers, so it was just someone using Remembrance Sunday to score a cheap political point
Ah, the ignorance of the young!
If you don't understand the relevance of donkey jackets at remembrance parades to left wing labour leaders then you want to get reading your political history Kimbers. (Indeed, if you didn't recognise a coal board Donkey jacket at a hundred paces, you might want to do the same)
I'm now educated ninfan
Funnily enough no labour leader ever wore one,? but some right wingers tried to use that lie as a political weapon to attack Michael foot with, well I never
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/7361078/Michael-Foot-and-the-donkey-jacket-that-wasnt.html
Every day is a school day
Erm, yes, that would be my point (hence the highly convincing mocked up photo worthy of NASA/CIA black ops)
but relevant to the OP as it sums up how much its become an idealogical football that (mostly) the rightwing nutters use as a weapon to attack those they dislike
In the same way that we are all free to mark today as we see fit, we are also free to read this thread - very clear where the vitriol (mostly) comes from. Sad and unnecessary...
The Poppy is a symbol of rememberence for those who have given their lives in service for their country in time of war and comflict. Poppy's grow on broken ground and where widely seen on the battlefields of WW1 and the colour is a poignant reminder to the blood that was split. They have thus become the symbol of rememberence. Not for a single second do they represent to me anything about the folly of war OP. It is entirely appropriate for Poppy's to appear on military uniform and equipment.
I personally wear one every year and always donate to collectors, I also donate to other military related charities. I always observe the silence at 11 on the 11th. Many people died for our right to live in freedom, if some wish not to recognise that sacrifice that's their choice. A choice provided to them by those that died.
epicyclo - Member
chewkw - Member
What if wars come to you?...
Got any examples involving the UK? (Not counting those where we were stirring the pot first)
Second round with Argentina or with Spain over the Rock?
Ya, you are asking the crystal ball question ...
[quote=ninfan opined]Erm, yes, that would be my point (hence the highly convincing mocked up photo worthy of NASA/CIA black ops)
Your point was he did not wear one so you mocked up someone else wearing one telling us it was left wing history...christ you dont have scribble some shit on here.
very clear where (most of) the vitriol comes from. Sad and unnecessary...
TBH i have not seen much just you getting upset about it whilst claiming others are "frothing". You are still doing it but no one is frothing its a pretty temperate debate for STW I assume due to the subject with the odd bit of RW jingoistic tub thumbing about dying for our freedom eg Jamby below your post and some LW criticism of what the event has come to mean and the pressure to wear one and how it has changed from remembering the fallen of WW1 to glorifying /supporting our forces
The remembrance poppy is especially prominent in the UK. In the weeks leading up to Remembrance Sunday, they are distributed by The Royal British Legion in return for donations to their "Poppy Appeal", which supports all current and former British military personnel. During this time, all public figures and people appearing on television are expected to wear them, and those who do not have been criticized. Some have berated this as "poppy fascism" and argued that the Appeal is being used to justify and glorify current wars.
very clear where the vitriol (mostly) comes from. Sad and unnecessary...
Agreed:
If you want froth, buy a bloody cappuccino
Not for a single second do they represent to me anything about the folly of war OP.
I bet they don't.
Oh * off you patronising *.
I stand by that comment. He was being patronising and pompous in the extreme (as usual) and dismissing people's perfectly valid opinions as 'froth'.
And I'd like to hear his response to the 'frothing' of the 91-year-old war veteran that he's been conveniently ignoring.
😀
Ignoring you grum, not the question. There are rules (that are supposed) to be adhered to....
except he is not and he was.
WHy is this issue such a divisive debate between RW and left wing on here?
I bet THM arrives to quote and add emojis to your reply-EDIT to be clear I wrote that before seeing his reply but so predicatble
I'm still waiting.
It's hilarious isn't it THM, that a 91-year-old war veteran feels this way:
However, I am afraid it will be the last time that I will bear witness to those soldiers, airmen and sailors who are no more, at my local cenotaph. From now on, I will lament their passing in private because my despair is for those who live in this present world. I will no longer allow my obligation as a veteran to remember those who died in the great wars to be co-opted by current or former politicians to justify our folly in Iraq, our morally dubious war on terror and our elimination of one's right to privacy.
If only someone like you would tell him to 'buy a bloody cappuccino if you want froth'.
You really are the most pompous person I have ever encountered on the internet. Well done.
There are rules that are supposed to be adhered to..
Is that you forthing then 😆
Bless have a coffee
QED
Anyway enough, it's a day of respect and remembrance not this....
Junkyard - lazarus
WHy is this issue such a divisive debate between RW and left wing on here?
You are wrong! Said Peter Griffin from the Family Guy. 😆
Hey JY ... I am beginning to like coz you must be TJ's twin.
grum - Member
It's hilarious isn't it THM, that a 91-year-old war veteran feels this way:
I would tell the old chap that's part of the condition for being human. You have a great global cull once in a while. It is very sad when it happens but nothing much you can do but either join in to fight or die being hunted down. No biggie. We all must die one day but it is the way we die that can explain how we live.
[quote=teamhurtmore opined]QED
Anyway enough, it's a day of respect and remembrance not this....
Frothing with added flounce QED