[Closed] Maybe I’m just being a bit sensitive but a poppy on a weapon? Isn’t that a bit..

It's so that you can feel a bit of "pre-remembrance" while you wait for the just-released bomb to hit it's target/wedding party/Medicenes sans frontieres hospital.

It would look sillier with a red nose.

it’s supposed to be about the folly and disaster of War, isn’t it?

True meaning has long since been hijacked. Maybe it's easier to remember the dead if you keep making more of them.

Do you reckon that a vinyl wrap? bound to fall off in flight if you ask me.

Nope, you're absolutely right... You're just being a bit sensitive.

The poppy has become a horrible symbol of 'support our brave boys' which is code for 'support whatever war we tell you to or you'll be branded a traitor'. Original meaning completely lost.

Nowadays its a strange celebration of pointless deaths in combat, hiding behind a charity for those damaged by those conflicts.

Well, I wear mine (as I think very many do) to mark my respect for all the British and Commonwealth service men and women who have fallen in war on behalf of my country.

Of course, it being (relatively) a free one, you can please yourself...

given the people who fly, maintain or operate around that plane are the ones who have likely lost friends, colleagues, possibly even relatives to war do you not think they should be the ones deciding if it is offensive?

It's not a weapon, it's an aeroplane.

I mean, sure, you ca put weapons on it, but you can also use it as, for example, a sensor platform to look for on the run criminals ( http://www.lynnnews.co.uk/news/local/latest-local-news/marham-tornados-in-raoul-moat-hunt-1-669029)

Also worth remembering that weapons can be used in a purely defensive, rather than aggressive role, such as shooting down German flying bombs, like, er, the RAF did in WW2.

Edit:
Of course, if someone was looking to be offended, you would have thought they might have been more offended by the Lancaster bomber of the BBMF that keeps dropping poppies on remembrance parades? It's been doing it for bloody years without upsetting anyone though...

If that’s the case, STATO, then I can feel fairly legitimate in expressing my feelings, being ex-defence…

ninfan - that’s like saying a rifle isn’t a weapon, a bullet is…

Rachel

Originally the poppy was started by mothers who'd lost sons in the Great War along with the Cenotaph campaigns (iirc) but was quickly overtaken by the military.

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

I can't think a better place to put a poppy than on a weapon as to me it says weapons kill and this should be your last resort.
I recently went to NWA at Lichfield and after finding names of those I served with I was more upset to find the large area left blank for more names to be added. I wear my poppy to remember those that have fallen and as a warning against future wars.

This Bernie Boston picture says how I feel.

[img] [/img]

Its the same as putting a poppy on the grill of a car - and cars kill more than tornadoes do 😉

Then being 'ex-defence' you should know the difference between a weapon and a piece of equipment. 🙄

The poppy has become a horrible symbol of 'support our brave boys' which is code for 'support whatever war we tell you to or you'll be branded a traitor'. Original meaning completely lost.

This

But equally

This:

I can't think a better place to put a poppy than on a weapon as to me it says weapons kill and this should be your last resort.

Personally, and I'm not sure what validity my thoughts have outside of my own mind, the occasion is to remember those who did the fighting and were killed or maimed in the process. For me, I take time out to remember the grandfather I never knew and my two uncles who were scarred and traumatised by combat in WW2. I despair at the political hijacking of the event and equally, I reject the 'poppy nazis', it smacks of the white feathers handed out during the 1914-18 war and in retrospect, we all know how misguided that was.

Would you be offended if you saw a soldier wearing a poppy on his uniform? I just saw an old man sitting in the foyer of Sainsburys, wearing a military great coat and medals, with a poppy pinned next to them. He was even selling the bloody things!! The cheek!

Maybe I need to get my affrontment gland checked out... 😕

The poppy/remembrance day stuff just washes over me most of the time.
I often think about the lost ones more deeply,when I stop in the wee villages.
Memorials are usually a good spot to sit with the bike ,have a snack and there's time to look around.
It's then ,when you see how big the list of names is compared to the size of the village ,that's when it really gets me.
All those sons and fathers,I can only imagine the heartbreak and grief in such tiny communities.

Then being 'ex-defence' you should know the difference between a weapon and a piece of equipment.

To be fair though, the sentiment is the same. It's not a piece of equipment that has many uses other than to deliver or use weapons.

it's not a weapon, it's an aeroplane.

pointless pedantry is pointless

@gatsby - Am I offended by people wearing poppies? No. I wear one too but equally respect those who choose not to. They may be doing their remembrance in a different way. It is not unknown for people to donate to the British Legion and not wear the poppy. I know this is what I did for many years.

Oh yes and @fasthaggis, I know exactly what you mean. It is humbling when you see the lists of the dead.

Well, I wear mine to...

I'm certainly not saying the charity is morally bankrupt but there do seem to be a lot of people using the poppy in their own way for their own ends.

<edit>I'm not googling it now coz I don't want to inadvertently increase their hit count, but seem to recall Britain first have some previous with poppy appeal.

Cross? And you talk about moral bankruptcy? Irony alert is going haywire.

ninfan - that’s like saying a rifle isn’t a weapon, a bullet is…

Rachel

Is it worth noting that in both situations it is the human being that has been ordered to use that weapon that is the killer, even if it is the lumps of metal doing the killing. It's the people that should be thought about not the inanimate objects.

I see no reason why there shouldn't be a poppy on the plane, it's just a symbol, no different from someone playing the last post or laying a wreath. It lets people know that we are thinking about the fallen and so long as it has that effect and makes someone think then is it a bad thing?

Irony alert is going haywire.

What's up with STW today? All these posts and not one suggestion of a Daisy Cutter?

On the OP, I agree that it could be viewed as offensive and understand the reasons for it being so. Wearing a poppy on uniform is very different as whilst ultimately its a person in uniform that pulls the trigger the same person is the one with a conscience. The same cannot be said for a plane/equipment/weapon/whatever.

no different from someone playing the last post

On a sophisticated communication device specifically developed and used by the military to deliver orders to troops on the battlefield, enhancing their combat effectiveness.

My poppy is stuck high up near where the rear view mirror would be in my van. Theoretically according to some on here my van is deemed a weapon 🙄 so I'm guilty too.

pointless pedantry is pointless

Pointing out pointless pedantry is even more pointless shirley?

[quote=fasthaggis ]The poppy/remembrance day stuff just washes over me most of the time.
I often think about the lost ones more deeply,when I stop in the wee villages.
Memorials are usually a good spot to sit with the bike ,have a snack and there's time to look around.
It's then ,when you see how big the list of names is compared to the size of the village ,that's when it really gets me.
All those sons and fathers,I can only imagine the heartbreak and grief in such tiny communities.
Best STW post I've seen on this subject in the many years it's been regurgitated.

http://noglory.org/index.php/articles/75-this-year-i-will-wear-a-poppy-for-the-last-time-says-91-year-old-veteran

Pointing out pointless pedantry is even more pointless shirley?

Not as pointless as pointing out that pointing out pointless pedantry is pointless.

Don't wear a poppy because I don't believe in glorifying the military.
Its meaning has drifted to include all of our 'brave boys' and I don't think it's particularly tragic when a professional soldier is killed while invading another country for no particular reason.

LeeW, yeah probably.

jon1973 - Member

Pointing out pointless pedantry is even more pointless shirley?

Not as pointless as pointing out that pointing out pointless pedantry is pointless.

*Pointless pedantry* I was asking a question *Pointless pedantry*

Don't wear a poppy because I don't believe in glorifying the military.

I refuse as I really object to the #PoppyFascism thing which comes hand in hand with the whole thing. Plus I think it's the ultimate in hypocrisy, personally I don't give a shit about dead people I never knew and I suspect neither do most poppy wearers (although I'm sure they'd all protest that they really do care, so much so they spent £1 on a piece of tat).

Fast Haggis opined

I often think about the lost ones more deeply,when I stop in the wee villages.
Memorials are usually a good spot to sit with the bike ,have a snack and there's time to look around.

A recent trip to Bavaria was an eye-opener when I realised there were recorded deaths from late 1947 on the memorials. Mention of Eastern Russia as well. The poor devils had died while still in camps provided by good old Uncle Joe.

I think it's more hypocritical that folk who wear them still send people to die and the lesson has all been lost.

I don't care much for folk I never knew either, it doesn't mean I don't care about those who might still end up there or are still living through it though.

Think you may have gone a [i]little[/i] too far with that footflaps!

If you think about it, I'm sure you probably do GAS.

I wear a poppy on my uniform, because I have to. I don't wear one any other time. It doesn't stop me remembering the three friends I've lost. It's just a piece of tat, same as all those other ribbons and bands that people 'buy'. It's become a fashion accessory like the rest of them, all most as irritating as those people who chose to wear manky festival bands.

footflaps - Member
Don't wear a poppy because I don't believe in glorifying the military.
I refuse as I really object to the #PoppyFascism thing which comes hand in hand with the whole thing. Plus I think it's the ultimate in hypocrisy, personally I don't give a shit about dead people I never knew and I suspect neither do most poppy wearers (although I'm sure they'd all protest that they really do care, so much so they spent £1 on a piece of tat).

Make your mind up, you care or your don't otherwise you're just another retarded troll

footflaps - Member
Incredibly two 17yr olds kids from our local very expensive Public School (Perse School for boys in Cambridge) thought it was OK to take personal artefacts from Jews who had been gassed there.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/23/uk-teenagers-held-thefts-artefacts-auschwitz-museum

You do wonder what you get for your £15k a year (non boarding) fees, it certainly isn't a moral compass or common sense.

When the 2 minute's silence starts, I shal probably be thinking something like...

No haughty tyrants hereabouts. Thanks, guys.

@ Slowjo

and I'm not sure what validity my thoughts have outside of my own mind

If only we all could think like this, well said.

I shall wear for my own reasons & not seek anyone else's validation or otherwise.

Each to their own - how about a bit of respect for that?

try wearing a white poppy then and see what happens

given the people who fly, maintain or operate around that plane are the ones who have likely lost friends, colleagues, possibly even relatives to war do you not think they should be the ones deciding if it is offensive?

Can't think of any group more entitled to remember than the military.

Well, I'll wear mine, if that's ok.
You know, out of respect to my mates that got beaten by the clock.
Sorry if that doesn't sit well with some.
Actually, I'm not sorry.
At all.

[IMG] [/IMG]

[url= http://www.bristol247.com/channel/opinion/your-say/politics/why-i-put-white-poppies-in-the-kitchen ]This article about white poppies[/url] made me think a bit about the different meanings behind red and white poppies.

I agree with the OP.

No poppy for me but I'll be at the local memorial at 11.

Well, I'll wear mine, if that's ok.
You know, out of respect to my mates that got beaten by the clock.
Sorry if that doesn't sit well with some.
Actually, I'm not sorry.
At all.

Don't think you've really got a problem if you want to wear a poppy. The problem is for people who don't. It has become virtually impossible for anyone to appear in the media without wearing one. Seems like the BBC actively prevents people from appearing if they don't conform.

...I don't give a shit about dead people I never knew

I'm not one to take offence on behalf of other people, but that's a pretty horrible thing to say about soldiers that died in ww1/ww2 😯

Quite shocked by it to be honest.

[quote=nealglover ]
I'm not one to take offence on behalf of other people, but that's a pretty horrible thing to say about soldiers that died in ww1/ww2
Quite shocked by it to be honest.

+1. Heartless.

I don't think there's a problem with either colour.

What there is a problem with is taking offence at either..

Both in their true form & meaning are nothing other than a token showing your respect to those who've been killed in conflict.

Attaching any other meaning to either colour is really rather unnecessary & quite missing the point of wearing one in the first place. Unless you are trying to make some other point?...

Edit to clarify: is it not rather pointless to attach political meaning to either colour where none was originally intended a bit of a waste of time?

mattsccm - Member
Can't think of any group more entitled to remember than the military

One of the reasons why we have any sort of remembrance is that just about every family in the UK was affected by WW1 and 2. You're missing the point if you think anyone is more entitled than anyone else.

Sorry if that doesn't sit well with some.
Actually, I'm not sorry.
At all.

I would never object to your act of remembrance but it is important to remember that symbols only have the meanings people ascribe to them. I can't remember fallen troops because I've never known any. I can't even really remember those who served because I've known so few of them - my grandparents were in protected professions during the war and there are only a tiny handful of military folk amongst my friends and family. Remembrance to me can only be an intellectual, hypothetical endeavour and perhaps this leads me to overthink it.

This doesn't mean that that I have no appreciation for the sufferings of war and nor does it mean that I have no gratitude for the sacrifices others have made. In my case however that appreciation and that gratitude manifests as an aversion to the machinery of war in public ceremony, a fear of collective pageantry and a heartfelt desire to avoid such deaths in the future. All of these are rooted very deeply in my moral perspective and I don't see that the act of public remembrance helps me understand them further nor does it give me succor to voice them.

I also find that I can't meaningfully remember the dead of the commonwealth without remembering those of other forces; including those who were fighting for causes which the commonwealth was directly opposed to. Perhaps mistakenly in my mind the poppy, the red one at least, makes a significant distinction which I don't recognise.

I would never object to you wearing the poppy and hope that I understand your reasons for doing so. I want your remembrance to give you all that it can and respect your means of doing it. I do however object to being told that I am disrespectful for not wearing it, I do object to the notion of shaming people in the public eye for not wearing it and I do object most wholeheartedly to the misappropriation of it by the forces of jingoism.

Basically, I respect you for wearing the poppy because of what it means to you however I won't be wearing it because of what it means to me.

On a side note, every year I wrestle with whether I mean this or whether it's a lame excuse for siding with apathy. I may yet decide that I've deluded myself for years but it's not for want of thought.

/Sorry, that got a bit long and rambling.

Well said.

We all have our own ways, we should all respect that.

Don't wear a poppy because I don't believe in glorifying the military.
Its meaning has drifted to include all of our 'brave boys' [b]and I don't think it's particularly tragic when a professional soldier is killed while invading another country for no particular reason.[/b]

People can wear or not wear what they want, but remember that England has not got clean hands before/during and after both wars.

Do what makes you happy and cause no harm to others 🙂

Its probably fair to say that there is an age gap here, a lot of you would appear to be from the generation before mine. In my experience of war from 2001 onwards, how many can we really claim were just? Even Kosovo before that was just an exercise in bombing the crap out of somewhere, at least in that case there was a resolution unlike our later conflicts.

I have to say that neither of the world wars mean much to me, not really. I appreciate the effort and sacrifices made in an academic way but there is no connection, nothing that rings true. My first memory of war was Iraq the first time around and I only remember being scared shitless that my dad might get sent out. There was then the fallout with Gulf War Syndrome which was just another screw you to the squaddies that got flung by the wayside. Given the way our servicemen have and do get treated I wonder at anyone who sees it as a life and I think that was what was meant in that case (end of the day, nobody made them join).

The days of conscripts fighting a just war are long gone, its not the same any more. Likewise I get ****ed off with the argument that this was all started by people fighting for our freedom. They weren't, it was just another live action game of Risk being fought between various cousins across Europe. WW1 is not something to be celebrated, it was a tragedy of the highest order that just showed the contempt the ruling classes had for those under their supposed protection.

Not sure where I'm going with this now...

The village where my son lives has 29 names on the WW1 memorial. It doesn't mention if others came back damaged, mentally or physically. That's one reason.

The uncle who I never knew, who died in Korea, is the other reason.

CountZero - Member

Or when they're killed defending another country against invaders, on behalf of the inhabitants of that country? Which is what our military was doing through two world wars

The poppy and Remembrance aren't just about the world wars, though. You don't have to be some fanatic that thinks all soldiers are evil, to have a bit of unease about the all-or-nothing approach some of this stuff takes. You can't choose a special poppy that says "I give thanks to those who gave their lives in the world wars but I'm not that keen on invading iraq"

Me, I wear one, I can hold separate in my mind the wars and the people. Regardless of how just or unjust a war, it's going to be the same poor buggers getting shot. But I see where the disquiet comes from. Remembrance and jingoism can run pretty close together sometimes.

I don't wear a poppy.

Nobody has ever said anything about it to me.

One of those things that's mainly an issue on the internet?

This might be a useful thinking point. UK military deaths since 1945.

Korea: 765
Northern Ireland: 763 (includes military deaths on UK mainland and Germany attributed to Irish terrorism) (171 died in 1972)
Malaya: 340
The Falklands: 255
Palestine: 233
Iraq 2003-2009: 179
Afghanistan: 404 (March 2012)
Cyprus: 105
Aden: 68
Egypt: 54
Balkans: 48
The Gulf 1990: 47
Yangtse River: 46
Oman & Dhofar: 24
Suez: 22
Borneo: 126
Kenya: 12
Sierra Leone: 1

According to http://www.armedforces.co.uk/mod/listings/l0021.html

As a comparison the British army had just over 19000 men killed on the first day of the Somme.

I refuse as I really object to the #PoppyFascism thing which comes hand in hand with the whole thing. Plus I think it's the ultimate in hypocrisy, personally I don't give a shit about dead people I never knew and I suspect neither do most poppy wearers (although I'm sure they'd all protest that they really do care, so much so they spent £1 on a piece of tat).

I've not worn a poppy since primary school. And never felt pressured to do so. Where the **** do you live to feel the force of #poppyfacism?

Strangely, I do actually, genuinely care about those that have died in THE WAR. On account of talking to their surviving friends and being able to at least empathise just a little bit.

Aside from the GFs grandad. Who seems to have spent the entirety of WW2 on a beach in India in a supply station.

piemonster - Member

Aside from the GFs grandad. Who seems to have spent the entirety of WW2 on a beach in India in a supply station.

My grandads, getting drunk and telling war stories...

"Ah, it was hell on the arctic convoys, first time I got sunk I was sure I was dead, but it's worse after the first because you know what it'll be like if it happens again..."
"I visited the taj mahal, got a killer tan, and shagged loads of ceylonian birds! Wars are great!"

If I had internet powerz, I'd just close this thread right after Northwind's post.

Can I also make a request I have no right to (and I'm off to watch a filum now) but can we try to stay a bit classy on this?

FF has posted a pretty crappy thing, which I'm SURE he'll be along to explain that's not what he [i]actually [/i] meant, so let's give him that opportunity.

By doing so we'll maintain that freedom of virtue that so many have fought to allow us the freedom to have (and not look like bellends in the morning 🙂 )

I have no objection to poppy wearing. And I take a moment to reflect. But the more politicised poppy wearing becomes the more inclined I become to not wear one. I do things because I believe in them, not to conform. And I have respect for people who give without needing to demonstrate the fact.

supposed to be about the folly and disaster of War, isn’t it?

nope its about remembering all soldiers everywhere in all the wars

free county, allow those that want to remember in thier own way the time to do so

they gave so you dont have to

My grandads, getting drunk and telling war stories...

In all honesty, it's what he did. Or at least that's what his brandy and cheap whisky addled brain remembers.

After a couple of brandys, obviously.

Can I also make a request I have no right to (and I'm off to watch a filum now) but can we try to stay a bit classy on this?

No we cannot. I want Hitler Cats.

And I want them now!

Look, we're all aware of your Hitler cat look-a-like agency, but just stop breeding them and get a normal job like the rest of us!

I've just realised the GFs grandad also has fond memories of the merchant navy

Ummmm....
[img] [/img]

is it not rather pointless to attach political meaning to either colour where none was originally intended a bit of a waste of time?

Where the **** do you live to feel the force of #poppyfacism?

*no I didn't know the name of it before wiki told me 🙂

hang on, back up a second, on page 1

I recently went to NWA at Lichfield

[img] [/img]

played

[img] [/img]

they kept that gig quiet?!

Back vaguely on topic, recently read Paxman's Great Britain's Great War, having studied WW1 many many years ago at GCSE level I'd forgotten just quite how incomprehensible the casualty figures were.

And yes, within the TV media there does seem to be a poppy arms race; no one dare be seen on camera without one, and they get earlier and earlier and bigger and bigger.

nope its about remembering all soldiers everywhere in all the wars

It's really not though is it, it's almost exclusively about remembering British soldiers or at least those who fought on our side, specifically in WWI and WWII.

Despite the apparent outrage here:

I'm not one to take offence on behalf of other people, but that's a pretty horrible thing to say about soldiers that died in ww1/ww2

Quite shocked by it to be honest.

Does anyone here give a shit about, say, all the people who died in the Taiping rebellion in China (estimates between 20-100 million?) Or the Russian Civil War (estimated 5-9 million deaths). It's just that strangely I've never heard anything like that mentioned before.

My respect for squirrelking has reached new heights, this is a very insightful reply:

In my experience of war from 2001 onwards, how many can we really claim were just? Even Kosovo before that was just an exercise in bombing the crap out of somewhere, at least in that case there was a resolution unlike our later conflicts.

I have to say that neither of the world wars mean much to me, not really. I appreciate the effort and sacrifices made in an academic way but there is no connection, nothing that rings true. My first memory of war was Iraq the first time around and I only remember being scared shitless that my dad might get sent out. There was then the fallout with Gulf War Syndrome which was just another screw you to the squaddies that got flung by the wayside. Given the way our servicemen have and do get treated I wonder at anyone who sees it as a life and I think that was what was meant in that case (end of the day, nobody made them join).

The days of conscripts fighting a just war are long gone, its not the same any more. Likewise I get **** off with the argument that this was all started by people fighting for our freedom. They weren't, it was just another live action game of Risk being fought between various cousins across Europe. WW1 is not something to be celebrated, it was a tragedy of the highest order that just showed the contempt the ruling classes had for those under their supposed protection.

His last point raises important issues~

All wars to this day are funded by the taxpayer (and cannon fodder recruited from the masses), but who actually benefits?

grum - Member

It's really not though is it, it's almost exclusively about remembering British soldiers or at least those who fought on our side, specifically in WWI and WWII.

I'm not sure exactly what you meant here but it's not at all specific to the world wars. These days most of the Legion's work is for current soldiers and veterans of recent wars.

I'm not really talking about what the legion does with the money, I'm talking about what the poppy symbolises in the media/public consciousness.