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I think it’s the first show (at least that I can remember/ have seen) that has accurately shown the mess a shell or flak makes of an aircraft. <br /><br />
Generally thought the show was good, not especially invested in characters by the end of ep2. Will probably still watch it…
Slightly underwhelmed.
yeah. We bailed some way through ep 2. 5* reviews and liking band of brothers had me looking forward to it, but sadly nope.
It's not just the static plot, puff piece doc 'and now we see the valuable work of the ground crew' take on things, dull characters, 'made some time in the 50s' war film feel, and the notion we're watching speilberg and hanks' big train set... In fact it's mainly not that, it's mainly that I've got used to shows that have a bit of critical distance from what they're showing, that show things from different perspectives or with competing narratives, where what characters think isn't necessarily what they then say... This has some great actors and production values, but just feels wooden and one dimensional. The documentary bits could be done in 5 mins, and the air sequences get a bit 'seen one, seen 'em all' (and we are watching on a big OLED).
Hey ho, it's only telly. If not for the reviews or I'd have gone 'not for me' 10 mins in.
There was a report that showed (about 1943ish) that bombing accuracy was pretty poor had precisely zero effect.
I thought it was mid-1942; it did have some effect eg. PFF, better routing, being more explicit that ‘de-housing’ the German workforce was the main aim, even if that’s not what the 23yos who had to take off into the dusk and do it were told.
Max Hastings’ book is good on this, and makes the point that Harris should really have gone after D-day, and eg. a concerted campaign against oil installations (which he consistently refused to do) would probably have worked.
Signed up for Apple last night.
Episode 1 was OK but I'm a little disappointed. Have no interest in the characters.
Much preferred Criminal Record.
Regarding the Allied Bombing Campaign, in 1944-45, the Germans were 40-45% of their TOTAL industrial resources, defending against it. Every 88, every shell, all the steel, concrete, fuel and aircraft that were used for air defence, was not used on the Eastern or Western fronts.
I’ve enjoyed it, but it certainly isn’t 10/10 stuff so far.
Most of the stellar reviews have been based on the full series. There is a review on avforums that isn’t as enthusiastic and they only had access to the 1st two episodes.
Hopefully it will improve, worth sticking with it I feel.
Can't see beyond Saltburns waving willy and Elvis. Uh huh.
Only watched one episode so far, and did enjoy it, and will watch the whole series before coming to a final judgement. No, it's not BoB. I think there is a decent amount to like, but some of the criticism so far is fair. The characters and dialogue are OK so far, but I think it's missing real tension. Maybe this will build through the episodes and carnage. Maybe the hardest bit for the series is that it's focus is perhaps too broad, and the viewer is overwhelmed by a cacophony of action/horror/drama, and it blunts all the individual extraordinary stories...?
Just a point of order - the book was published in 2007, but it was re-published with the current changed title. The book is very worthwhile, and goes into great detail across many aspects, and there's absolutely no shortage of potential drama and horror. Some of the missions attempted almost defy belief. The African scenes come from trialling shuttle bombing. Also tested in Russian territory later on.
PFF
Don't forget, Harris was very much against the pathfinders; until it worked. He was very much against "panacea-mongering" which is what he considered things like the the Dams raid, and most special targets with giant bombs that folks proclaimed as "war ending". I think he was very much in favour of relentless bombing the shit out of anything that moved; civilians or military, it didn't much matter to him. I think his his opinion was very much "They can put a stop to this anytime they want" Much like his counter part in the USAAF, Le May.
Ive enjoyed it so far, loved Band of Brothers and re watched it twice at least. Pacific I’ve enjoyed it had big shows to fill but was also a very different conflict, I’ve read about how veterans for Europe and the Pacific even acknowledged how different the wars was for them and I think the Pacific captures this in the viewing.
Im uncertain about this so far but would watch another few so I suppose it’s a success then!!
@nickc On the other hand, once his hand was forced on PFF, he lined up Bennett to command it?
There's a certain argument that says that he wasn't a great strategist - if he'd kept on at the Ruhr rather than switching to bombing Berlin, he'd have had a more decisive effect. And he wasn't great at follow up - the Germans apparently couldn't understand why the RAF didn't come back to have a go at the dam repair work with conventional bombs (incidentally, Operation Chastise was a month before the 100th BG's first operation).
Agree with Klunk, some harrowing bits - stuck in ball turret for example . I also wonder in real life too how none of the gunners hit their compatriots planes with all that adrenaline and speed of movement.
I might watch the 4th….
I also wonder in real life too how none of the gunners hit their compatriots planes with all that adrenaline and speed of movement.
there's some footage of a b24 taken out by bomb dropped on it from above, wrong place wrong time!
Yeah, that felt a bit more impactful - did a decent job of conveying the horror of fighting in that environment and the consequences of command balls-up.
Just the one episode for me, rank rotten.
Enjoy folks!
There's quite a few things higher on the list to watch than this. Not sure if I'll get to it.
Just came in to ask if anyone spotted Matt Jones in the hangar bike race scene?
I'm quite invested in this so far, FWIW when my father was evacuated during WW2, he ended up somewhere in East Anglia near a bomber airfield. He talked about the B-17s coming back late in the evening returning from missions and trying to land trailing smoke, often with bits missing and sometimes on fire. Your wee belly-gunner guy in a dying Flying Fortress who couldn't be freed from his claustrophobically tiny self-contained turret in time must've been a reality for the men who flew these things.
The mortality rate of aircrew engaged in strategic bombing during WW2 is mind boggling.
The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner
BY RANDALL JARRELL
From my mother’s sleep I fell into the State,
And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.
Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life,
I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.
When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.
Grim.
I've seen some stats for relative casualties of the various crew positions on a B17, the ball turret gunner was one of the safest from flak, forced as he was into a compact position with a fair bit of protection from armour and his machine guns. The waist gunners were most exposed.
Of course if the aircraft is downed he's in one of the hardest places to escape from, and he has to retrieve his parachute from the aircraft because he won't fit into the turret with it on. The escape rate from a crashing B17 was still over twice that of the Lancaster which would be in the dark and with the notorious wing spar to negotiate for most of its crew.
While I'm sure that's a very interesting video, I'm not listening to 9 minutes of that voice. Clif notes?
On the other hand, once his hand was forced on PFF, he lined up Bennett to command it?
My understanding of the formation of the pathfinders was that most of the discussion/arguments took place at the Group level (below Harris) and that Roderick Carr (4 group) was the proposer and supporter of Bennett, who had a bit of a reputation as being a "vocal enthusiast" for the theory (ironically copied from the Luftwaffe) I don't think Harris thought much of Bennett in turn, but left it to the Group leaders to make the decision to allow it to form squadrons and test the theory. Harris thought that taking away the best crews from squadrons would lead to elitism (partly true) and would be bad for moral (not so much)
The book The Pathfinders by Will Iredale is a good overview if you're interested.
the Germans apparently couldn’t understand why the RAF didn’t come back to have a go at the dam repair work with conventional bombs
It was hard enough to bomb them with very very well trained crews and specialist weapons. By the time they were repairing them the Germans diverted a huge amount of anti-aircraft guns to locations like this all around Germany, ironically taking them away from more likely targets, making a return visit not only prohibitively dangerous but also a bit pointless (no water in the reservoirs, which was half the weapon, after all) . And with the labour to repair the Dams coming from workers on the Atlantic walls defences, the knock-on effects of just that one raid, meant that not only were other targets less heavily defended but D-Day was made easier because of the lack of construction.
a lot of survivor bias.... most planes came back with flak damage 84% but not much 30 and 20 mm cannon damage. As James Stewart said "the fighter was the bogeyman" your plane wasn't coming home if you were hit by the big calibre rounds. Not that much self inflicted and friendly fire overall... escort fighters didn't go into the formations as the bomber gunners shot at anything pointing at them. Friendly fire was a problem for b29 nightime fire bomb raids so much so they took their ammo away 😕
Friendly fire was a problem for b29 nightime fire bomb raids so much so they took their ammo away 😕
Japanese night fighter threat was pretty minimal though?
Episode 3 picked things up a bit! Thats more like it and I'm feeling a bit more hopeful now.
It's a fantastic story, done in a worthy and plodding way by people who think they are remaking Band of Brothers.
Swing and a miss.
We Have Ways podcast, however...
Last night's Ep was dull as **** and seemed to forgo a plot and script and instead rely on series of war-film cliches. I'll give it one more episode I reckon.
I agree, last night was dull.
I don't really care who is going to live or die.
I'm trying really hard to like it. Started BoB again to offset the disappointment.
Switched off after 20mins, metaphorically and physically.
Yeah. It looks great, but how have they made it so tedious 🤔 quite an achievement considering the subject!!
Did I misinterpret, or did they kill a couple of the main characters off-screen with a bit of a shrug? Or are they going to turn up alive?
Did I misinterpret, or did they kill a couple of the main characters off-screen with a bit of a shrug? Or are they going to turn up alive?
I imagine they're going to have more SERE/captured sub-plots along with the bombing missions.
But it's definitely lacking some spice, but then it was never going to be as crunchy or as varied like the ground combat in Pacific or BoB from a cinematic perspective.
Did I misinterpret, or did they kill a couple of the main characters off-screen with a bit of a shrug? Or are they going to turn up alive?
You can search for the main characters on Wikipedia etc. Some of them survived the war, some didn't.
One of the problems s that once their flying you can't see their faces.
It really helps if you can see their faces to get some attachment to the characters.
James Cameron spent a fortune on specialist custom diving helmets for The Abyss for that very reason.
Klunk
Free MemberFriendly fire was a problem for b29 nightime fire bomb raids so much so they took their ammo away 😕
Yep but that was mostly because they were facing far less effective attacks, and also because the B29's remote control turrets were so unreliable.
Watched the 4 episodes so far. It does feel like there's something a bit lacking, like it's a bit empty.
Maybe they should've put in a Currahee equivalent episode, show them in training a bit, show why the bomb site is so important, build them up a bit so we care a bit more? Contrast cocky inexperience against the terror of the first real mission a bit more?
Plus the CGI is a bit rubbish!
I might have to watch Memphis belle again too see how I feel about that now!
Well i've watched all that's available so far and i'm quite enjoying it, but not getting the same engrossed feeling i perhaps should be. I'm not sure if it's the way it's being told, or the script, but it's lacking a certain depth and tension. I quite liked the Regensberg/Schweinfurt raid portrayal, in that it showed how epic and exposed a mission it was. But I also agree the CGI battles don't seem quite right at points, but they did try to show how the sky was littered with bits of plane and people in Ep.4, and that is something mentioned in witness testimony in the book. It's crazy to think how much material would have rained down form above, all the bits of planes, parachutes, bodies, shrapnel from flak. A grim reality.
Aside from the historical accuracy with battles, there's also the everyday reality to convey, and it has a reasonable stab at it with scenes in East Anglia and London, and Egan facing the sharp end of their day job by seeing the aftermath of Nazi bombing in London. I'm a bit sceptical of land girls stooking hay next to the hardstands, and locals running about. I'd have expected some sense of airfield security, and not sure if wheat was grown on an operational airfield, but I don't honestly know, it just felt too much like a concocted compound of historical elements...
I'm going to keep watching and I can feel myself getting more invested in the series.
Did I misinterpret, or did they kill a couple of the main characters off-screen with a bit of a shrug? Or are they going to turn up alive?
Think i read that there'll be some of the tuskegee pilots as well in this series, so sounds like they may have episodes involving stalag luft iii.
Anyway, not watched since episode 2, will wait for it all and watch it then, it was hard to get in to, i think there's not the same feel for BoB or the pacific, as others say, it was immersive as they were stuck there, whereas with this, they are doing their runs, then back at base and partying or whatever, so loses the tension pretty much most of the time. It's a shame though, as this was the most dangerous theatre, but probably the hardest to put into film.
As others have said, not engaging with this as much, i think it is for the same reason i don't like Zwift, feels like i am inside a computer game half the time.
But will keep watching, read the source book, and also re-read James Holland's Big Week book, as well as the accompanying We Have Ways podcasts which have been brilliant with some heartbreaking stats as to the survival rates and stories of those in the series.
blimey 2 more agent Carter clones
I don’t know what that means?
I’m watching this series as it comes out and I have no idea if I like it or not. It’s no BoB but it’s bedding in slowly. I want to know what happens next so I guess that’s a good thing.
But my worry is that it’s taken 6 episodes to get to this stage and they only have 4 left to finish and I can’t see how they do that. How have they run out of time when they have 10 hours to tell a story?
It seems like we still have a whole Great Escape thread to develop as well as completing the bombing war and introducing several new crews/pals/points of view.
And aren’t there still other folk on the run in France?
they only have 4 left
Think there's only 3 actually 😬
How many series though?
How many series though?
My thoughts exactly. Not going to wrap this up in a few episodes, most likely a cliffhanger to prime us for season 2?
I said it earlier but a BoB Arnhem series (multiples) would be epic. Cover from the air and the ground all the way up to the extraction.
And there's still the Tuskegee Airman story-line that they want to show horn-in at some point.
I don't think there is a 2nd series?
This one took 10 years and cost millions.
This one took 10 years
Eh? Development was started in 2013, but HBO decided to shelve it, Apple picked it up and agreed a deal in 2019, filming started 2021 but due to COVID delayed it.
So not beyond the realm of possibility that further series could follow.
Not sure what's happening but I do have any tools showing so can't post a link?
Anyway we will know soon enough, if Episode 9 goes to Spring 1945, that's the end of the story.
I listened to the we have ways podcast with the writer and he said one of the hardest parts was condensing the story into only 9 episodes, he didn't give the impression there was any plans for another series.I also think they mentioned that after D Day the Luftwaffe had been so depleted that the losses were greatly reduced and I think the program will focus on mostly on the earlier part of the American bombing campaign when losses were higher.
I wasn't too impressed with the Brit bashing but Al Murray pointed out that's consistent with what the Americans thought at the time so it's at least accurate in that way .
Personal trivia alert: My father - himself of immediate German heritage - told me once that he was playing in the street, when he and his friends saw a bloke in a blue uniform descending under a parachute land nearby. He spoke good English, he asked the kids to fetch a policeman while he waited, rolled a Luftwaffe cigarette and said "now you know what a German airman looks like".
My father went on to serve in the RAF - naturally his first posting was Germany, where he was given leave to meet and befriend his German relatives. Dad worked with radio and radar, apparently the RAF NCO who instructed him was a Pole, who'd been present at the liberation of Belsen. The story goes that everyone from the surrounding villages was marched to the camp and made to bear witness. This Polish RAF guy was apparently amongst the first RAF personnel who landed in Berlin just after the Nazis capitulated. He told my Dad about the level of devastation wrought upon the city being visible across miles.
My father had cousins, who were conscripted into the Luftwaffe and who ended up being killed at Stalingrad. My father's uncle Rudi refused to open the door to his "English" family apparently.
There's also no amount of money on Earth that could persuade me to climb aboard even a perfectly functional B-17.
when he and his friends saw a bloke in a blue uniform descending under a parachute land nearby. He spoke good English, he asked the kids to fetch a policeman while he waited, rolled a Luftwaffe cigarette and said “now you know what a German airman looks like”
Reading this reminded me of a BBC children's program from my youth (I would have been 11). Me, my brother and our mates were all into exploring/making dens/firing catapults etc, this program was basically the same but set in WW2 only the kids found a machine gun and ended up capturing a German pilot. Anyone else remember it?
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0258359/
Anyone else remember it?
It was based on a book by Robert Westall.
It was 1st book I ever read in a day. Absolutely loved it. The book is way better than the TV series and misses loads out.
There was a sequel "Fathom Five".
He also did loads of other "young adult" fiction, including The Watch Tower which was also made into a TV series by the BBC.
Did a lot of ghost stories too.
Loved the Machine Gunners when I was a kid
There's been a bit of chat about CGI already, but I'm not sure I can get past the 'good ol' folk' herding superimposed cows alongside the airfield in episode 1.
Loved the Machine Gunners when I was a kid
To this day, when on a night out, upon leaving the pub, restaurant or cinema, I will invariably ask my companions:
"WHERE WE GOIN' NOW?"
"WHERE YER GOING NOW"
FTFY.
It wasn't even in the book.
When you realise you’ve blown your entire CGI budget in the first three episodes so have to shelve your plans for an epic D Day episode and instead have to the tell the story from the perspective of a bloke who inexplicably slept through the whole thing
Press play….preview-skip……preview-skip……..recap-skip……intro credits-skip……..arrghhhhhhh just play the ****ing show
Apart from that it’s ok viewing
In the book (Red Tail Free) he wrote about his time with the Tuskegee Airman Alexander Jefferson says that while he was a POW the Germans treated him like every other captured officer. Went he went home in mid 1945 and landed in New York, the first thing an American said to him at the dock was "Whites to the Right, n****** to the left"
Think the tuskegee point was that this was the first time US officers of both colours weren’t segregated.
still not watched after episode 2 or 3, sounds like I’m not missing much, I enjoyed the pacific as well, but there was a real feel that the pacific theatre was often forgotten about compared to Europe for many areas
I think it's just the nature of the story. The 100th's losses were extraordinary, as was the courage and perseverance of the aircrew who persisted throughout that period. Unfortunately in a drama you just can't care much about the deaths of people you've never come to know so it essentially boils down to "had a mission, lost a lot of planes, the CGI sequence of the return took way less processing than that of the departure".
It feels like clunky storyline by Ai, followed by fake visuals by Ai. (That's probably not the case here but its where its heading based on this). If this is the future for high budget drama, then this is not looking rosy. This couldn't raise itself up to even lick BoB's boots.
I think it fails as a a drama is that the strategic bombing campaign was basically rinse and repeat.
As for D-Day, they had complete air supremacy and the Luftwaffe barely laid a glove on them, so relatively little drama there.
Final episode is pretty good!
Agreed, probably the second best episode after the on to Africa one.
The last episode was fine.
My uncle , who was killed in bomber command service, would be happy to know that the Brits had nothing to do with the liberation of Europe.
so overall it was a bit heavy on the “USA, USA,USA” in the end
it was a bit heavy on the “USA, USA,USA” in the end
It was a drama about the USAAF though, so that doesn't really bother me.
It was a good episode. Quite downbeat and melancholic in the end, which was quite a thoughtful approach.
Overall, a decent series. It didn't reach the heights of BoB, but that is hard to do, given how good that was. But I'm glad I watched it and will miss settling in every week for a new episode.
In the book (Red Tail Free) he wrote about his time with the Tuskegee Airman Alexander Jefferson says that while he was a POW the Germans treated him like every other captured officer. Went he went home in mid 1945 and landed in New York, the first thing an American said to him at the dock was “Whites to the Right, n****** to the left”
Only found out recently that the Nazi's actually studied the US Jim Crow American race laws on segregation, to see almost what they could get away with...
https://www.history.com/news/how-the-nazis-were-inspired-by-jim-crow
Overall, i think if it hadn't been from the same team as BoB, then it would of been considered good, but you can't help but compare it.
It felt very rushed to me, i think it could of done with being 11-12 episodes and showing more of the in-air action, seemed to jump 3-6 months at a time often.
I would normally file criticism about equipment accuracy as overly nerdy and would STFU about them, but given that the production team were shouting loudly about their claims of hyper-realism, I'm duty bound to call out the fact that by 1944 the 100th BG (like many others) had given up their "F" model B17s for "G" model that incorporated a chin turret. So all the B-17 sequences in at least the final episode were 'wrong'.
Overall I would give a 3/5. Some of the air-war shots were amazing, and the pilots using escape lines from Europe was tense and made for good telly. The inclusion of the Tuskegee Airmen felt a bit like tokenism if I'm honest.
I found the end credits extremely moving. I think the fact that as a military aviator, it could well have been me was a big part of that.
I think they were done very well, i think one of the greatest parts of BoB was seeing the real mean at the start and end of the episodes, and a shame that none of those featured are still with us for Masters of the Air, although some of the 100th are still going, a great podcast was We have ways one with "Lucky" Luckadoo at 102 years of age, and still giving talks about the war to students.
I would of liked to have been an aviator, but severe colour blindness means i spent my arm career being thrown out of Hercules and the odd Chinook...
I found the end credits extremely moving. I think the fact that as a military aviator, it could well have been me was a big part of that.
I think they were done very well, i think one of the greatest parts of BoB was seeing the real mean at the start and end of the episodes, and a shame that none of those featured are still with us for Masters of the Air, although some of the 100th are still going, a great podcast was We have ways one with "Lucky" Luckadoo at 102 years of age, and still giving talks about the war to students.
I would of liked to have been an aviator, but severe colour blindness means i spent my army career being thrown out of Hercules and the odd Chinook...
I loved it - although I too was irked that
by 1944 the 100th BG (like many others) had given up their “F” model B17s for “G” model that incorporated a chin turret. So all the B-17 sequences in at least the final episode were ‘wrong’.
The end was especially moving. Learning more about these men and others like them - did so much.
The parts that featured the Tuskegee Airmen, were also great and a reminder of how hard they had to struggle to be in the frontline with effective equipment.
Colour blindness - no issue with “Red on, Green on……..” then??? 🙈🤣
Massive disappointment. I was at first quite engaged, mainly by how did they stay in the air after taking such a battering, but then I realised each episode was basically the same ( a bit like Ice Road Truckers), and the side stories went nowhere. Then the entire series raced towards the finish, leaping over The Great Escape, D-Day, The Tuskegee Airmen, Guns of the Navarone, Kelly's Heroes, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, anyway, just another airtime filler for the streaming channels.
Agreed. It all felt really rushed and cut to the bone in places with little or lo long lasting jeopardy going from episode to episode.
The intro and outro of BoB and FtEttM were missing and that narration really helps tie it all together.
Watchable, but a swing and a miss for me.