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Couldn't find this as a topic as yet, loved Band of Brothers, and to a lesser extent, The Pacific, so really looking forward to this on friday.
Empire review is up:
https://www.empireonline.com/tv/reviews/masters-of-the-air/
I know it will be very US-centric with lots of great haircuts single-handedly winning the war, but if it is half as good as BoB i'll be happy.
if it is half as good as BoB i’ll be happy.
They are set in the same universe.
https://twitter.com/TaubHistory/status/1748760659762749808
Another reason to renew Apple TV. They don't have the mass that Netflix has but seem to have a lot of quality.
I got Apple TV free for 6 months because we ordered a fridge from Curry’s for my mother in law.
Hopefully this will be part of the package unlike the Taylor Swift stuff that was extra, much to my daughter’s disgust.
Was reading up on it. They shot the cockpit footage in The Volume (where they did The Mandalorian) so the actors could look out of the window and see flak, FW190s, Germany etc instead of a green screen and some tennis balls on sticks.
They are set in the same universe.
So was The Pacific but I didn't manage to get to the end of that series
We purchased 2x new iPhones from Apple last month so was expecting to get 3 months of free access, as they promise. But turns out we are not eligible as we accessed the same offer 3 years ago. Seems a bit tight to me. But this series looks to be well worth paying for.
Is it on anything other than apple TV? I'm fundamentally opposed to giving apple any money, ever.
Is it on anything other than apple TV? I’m fundamentally opposed to giving apple any money, ever.
It's Apple only, I'm not a fan of the company or their products but "fundamentally opposed" seems a bit extreme. It'll be easily available from the usual places though if that's your bag.
Apparently Apple were the only provider that would front the vast sums of money to make it. It was HBO originally, but they wouldn't fund it
Not binge-able yet..
Apple is releasing the first two episodes together, then subsequent episodes weekly, which also seems apposite. For all of its wonders, Masters of the Air feels like the end of something – a season finale to the long-running series Extravagant TV.
Another 5/5 review
Not binge-able yet..
Apple is releasing the first two episodes together, then subsequent episodes weekly, which also seems apposite. For all of its wonders, Masters of the Air feels like the end of something – a season finale to the long-running series Extravagant TV.
whens the last episode? currently running on my free 3 months for buying an iphone.
Looking forward to this.
As other have said Apple TV+ has nothing like the content of Netflix (it probably has less than Prime and Disney+ too) but makes up for it in quality.
For All Mankind, Silo, Lessons in Chemistry, Slow Horses and Severance were all excellent
Seen a few good things on Apple TV, The Silo was excellent and really enjoyed Foundation.
This looks good too (reviews are all 5 star).
Plus Slow Horses!
^ also give “Criminal Record” a try - crime drama with Peter Capaldi & Cush Jumbo. Another on weekly episode release.
I’m fundamentally opposed to giving apple any money, ever.
Wait for it all to be available, sign up for apple TV, watch it in the 7 day free trial, cancel subscription. Bongo.
The silo is based on a trilogy of books, well worth reading.
By all accounts (online) the unit was a bit of a shambles with regards to discipline and technical ability/competence. I wonder if there will be some revisionism with regards to pilots navigating home or getting lost during training?
Thanks for starting the thread. I've been keeping vague tabs on this for years, being a huge fan of BoB. I really really hope it lives up to most if not all of the production credentials of BoB. The Pacific was a gory melodrama and a let down. The way they filmed the action sounds good, I just hope the final edit doesn't make it look ridiculous. One of the trailers wasn't that reassuring, but I bought an apple tv sub as I want to watch the whole thing. It's 9 episodes so hopefully it'll be worth it. Never had apple tv before but there's some other quality TV and films on there which is a good sign. I can absolutely do without the vast array of chaff that's on netflix.
I've read the book this is based on and it's an excellent and illuminating read. Bravery and grimness, and incredible fortitude abound. Being hanks and Spielberg I expect a dose of yank schlock, and some laughable UK characters (like BoB). But they're capable of communicating a gripping sense of the historic reality, which I hope prevails.
I watched some historical realism commentary
on YouTube about the trailer, and it bodes well because their complaints are so petty/vexatious.
Long post, sorry!
Looking forward to this! My paternal grandfather was a navigator in a B17 & was shot down over France. Survived and escaped with the help of the local resistance. All at the age of 23!
I saw the trailer. Whilst most of the reviews have been very positive if the cgi in the trailer is representative then I would find it very difficult to watch without shouting ‘planes don’t fly like that’ a few times an episode and upsetting the dog. Now some might regard that as petty/vexatious but it’s more a defying physics thing for me rather than historical accuracy.
The silo is based on a trilogy of books, well worth reading.
They are filming season 2 at the moment .
Not watched season 1 yet, does it tie in with the ending of the first book , i.e will season 2 be book 2 etc ?
I would find it very difficult to watch without shouting ‘planes don’t fly like that’ a few times an episode
In what way?
Looking forward to it, I think their efforts to maintain accuracy seems praise worthy, and the story of the 100th is a compelling one. Something like 80% of the original crews that came over to England were lost within months, so dramatizing that is a challenge with having to introduce characters, most of who are going to either die or be captured.
the unit was a bit of a shambles with regards to discipline and technical ability/competence.
I think that was probably as true of the 100th as it was for most of the US armed forces as they started to join the war in late '42. I do know that the lead navigator of the 100th, who became the Group Lead Nav was in fact one of the worst navigators at the beginning, and got the job mostly because he survived long enough to become good at it.
That was my concern a bit too (on flying sequences), I hate it when you get cartoon moves that make it seem like a video game. It takes away from the seriousness of the story, and it's so unnecessary. The actual action is nail-biting enough, it doesn't need the methods from a star wars or Marvel film. For me the benchmark for US daylight raids is Twelve o'clock high. A fantastic film that uses actual footage from raids, and they had the luxury of using a real B-17 to stage a real belly landing.
Fun fact: It's a Wonderful Life was James Stewart's first film after his service in a squadron based in England (with great distinction). I often wonder how much of his war experience filters through to the anguish of his character. It could have just been pure acting of course! Anyway, I wonder if he'll make a cameo appearance in the series, either CGI as a younger man or as a brief acted appearance...?
I would find it very difficult to watch without shouting ‘planes don’t fly like that’ a few times an episode
In what way?
I have had a bit of experience with historic aircraft volunteering with the Shuttleworth Trust, spending some time talking to the pilots who fly their veteran and vintage aircraft. The cgi that I saw showed Bf109G models manoeuvring in a way that would be impossible for two related reasons. First they were doing rolls at a speed of rotation that wasn’t possible for any aircraft of the era ( although possible now with something like an Extra 300 aerobatic plane)and Messerschmitt’s in particular at speed, and then pulling turns that would have ripped the wings off if the pilot actually had the strength to try it. It is common with many films though, Pearl Harbor was a shocker in that respect.
the story of the 100th is a compelling one
Indeed it is Nick, the ‘Bloody Hundredth’ they were known as. Thorpe Abbots, where they were based, is a 30 minute leisurely cycle for me. It’s a cracking museum and standing on top of the control tower looking out over were the hardstands and runways were is very evocative. The volunteers that run it are passionate about the history of the place and had Hanks in for a visit years ago when the project was first muted.
The CGI is probably going to annoy me too however.
Well, of the CGI that I do know they've done; when the B17s/B24 are on missions. They're 'flying' over accurate maps of both the landscape and the targets, so much so that as far as they can; down to buildings are where they are in real life. They've found the planes that took part in particular raids, and recreated them, and if it happened to the plane IRL, they re-create it in this even down to (as far as they can) the aircraft that shot it down. Their commitment to accuracy has been one of the things they're most proud. It would seem odd if they just abandon that for the sake of a high-G turn or fast barrel roll, no?
I appreciate that you have knowledge of aircraft through the Shuttleworth collection, but Bf109s and the like could pull sustained 4-5G and even as much as 8G for short periods, Black outs and grey outs for pilots were well recorded and that starts to happen for well experienced pilots at about 6G..
I guess this is the problem, it is a lot easier to recreate war on land with BoB and Pacific, as opposed to in the air, especially with (i believe) no current flying aircraft of the type they flew, so it has to be CGI, but if anyone has the budget to do it justice it would be them, plus it can only be better than it would of been if they had tried to do it 20 years ago i guess?
First they were doing rolls at a speed of rotation that wasn’t possible for any aircraft of the era
Becasue I am a nerd, I went and looked at the trailer. Could you getting confused between an aileron roll and a snap roll? Aileron rolls (as you rightly point out) for these sorts of planes are something like 80-100degs a sec so about three and a bit seconds for 360degs, and just using ailerons and low AoA, but in the trailer, those 109s are definitely doing flick/snap rolls and those are elevator/rudder at v high AoA and can be something like a second for the full roll, although obvs most of the time it's a half roll, or a vertical spilt s sort-of-thing. I doubt 109 drivers are doing lazy-assed aileron turns in the middle of a stack of B17s.
...and yet; I don't get invited to parties...
I appreciate the effort mentioned by nickc, I guess the issue that all films have is trying to get a visually cohesive image on screen showing the scale of the formation and the number of attacking aircraft into a small space which renders the action more exciting/ visceral to the viewer which leads to tweaks that I can appreciate relatively few people are worried about.
And as has been mentioned in historic aircraft forums, the trailer cgi may not be representative of the whole film.
Once all the episodes are out I'll be looking for an available source to download from. Apple aren't seeing a penny of my money.
Spoiler alert, the Germans lose.
over what time period are we talking?
Great point! A younger Stephen E. Ambrose gives a very good overview of 'who won the war' in The World at War series, I think 'Reckoning'.
Don't get invited to parties either!
Once all the episodes are out I’ll be looking for an available source to download from. Apple aren’t seeing a penny of my money.
That's great. I'm sure all the producers / actors / set builders / makeup and all the rest of the crew will be glad to hear you don't wish to make any sort of contribution to their livelihoods for the future 😉
On a related note youtuber "Lord HardThrasher" has recently done an interesting series on the European bombing campaign:
going into both the RAF and USAAF strategies/approach/experiences separately.
*He's perhaps a bit clarkson-esque in his presentation style if that bothers you
** I don't know enough about the subject to assess it's validity but it comes across as well researched to me
Richard Overy's The Bombing War is an excellent book that looks at bombing as a whole, whichever country used it in the WW2 period. It's illuminating to understand more about the strategies of the USAAF and RAF and some takes on their respective effectiveness and moral questions that hang over them...
Once all the episodes are out I’ll be looking for an available source to download from. Apple aren’t seeing a penny of my money.
I know, they’re bastards for putting the money up to produce it when HBO* pulled out.
(*or whoever it was.)
On a brighter note I’ve just finished a great big long post about the pros and cons of CGI, giving examples etc, but the website ate it (a three number error of some sort) and I’m not typing it all out again.
Once all the episodes are out I’ll be looking for an available source to download from. Apple aren’t seeing a penny of my money.
Even though they're selling something you want, for the grand total of £8.99? Interesting stance
Fun fact, a company near me made the leather flying jackets used in the film. Aero Leather in Galashiels are about the only company in the world that can make truly authentic WW2 jackets. They have the original tailoring templates, use leather from the correct breeds and manufacture using traditional techniques.
The salient question Frank, after seeing those prices, is can you get a discount? 😉
The defying physics aspect of it aside, I find the problem with CGI in movies and TV shows is no matter how good it is, it still looks like CGI and it just feels like watching a cut scene in a game, or a Pixar movie.
That being said I've been looking forward to this for a long time and will be signing up to apple!
Fun fact: It’s a Wonderful Life was James Stewart’s first film after his service in a squadron based in England (with great distinction).
Additional fun fact, he was based at Hethel which is now the Lotus Factory and test track. My great-grandfather was a foreman during the construction.
One of the big advantages for Lotus was not just the runway making a test track but that the Hangars being designed for huge bombers meant few internal columns getting in the way of installing a production line.
Not sure if any of you listen to the great We have way of making you talk podcast, but they interview the writer on there:
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/masters-of-the-air/id1457552694?i=1000642849103
They discuss how of the 36 crews that arrived in Norfolk of the "Bloody 100th" - 34 of those crews had been shot down by Mid 1943, and that in one night they lost 15 places, 150 crew, of the equivalent of losing the whole of BoB's Easy Company in one night.
I suppose for me, now living in Norfolk for the last 10 years, a lot of this history has surrounded me, a lot of my bike rides often cut across country on old airfields, i can think of 15-16 airfields within 30 minute ride. My wife's uncle has an old canadian air base on his farm, nothing touched in the Nissan huts since WW2, it still has graffiti in the loos, beer bottles on the ground, the bar, the dart board etc in there, and it is just encased in brambles.
I listened to that too. The costume lady stopped counting after she'd measured up 3000 people. Another interesting fact was the one about how big the bombing raids were. Three hours from the first plane to the last.
Another interesting fact was the one about how big the bombing raids were. Three hours from the first plane to the last.
You can see why they didn't refer to them as formations or the like, but "bomber streams".
They used to form up around really brightly coloured Lead Assembly Ships, with some crazy paint schemes:
https://www.classicwarbirds.co.uk/articles/lead-assembly-ships-of-the-eighth-air-force.php
Lead assembly ship from Hethel:
Also green & yellow and assembled at Hethel:
Rather impressed with it thus far. I do wish Arnhem would get this treatment, got so much potential with the richness of stories.
Anyhoo, will be impatiently waiting for Ep3.
I often ride through @52.5023997,-0.5880101,1332m/data=!3m1!1e3?authuser=0&entry=ttu">here, it's quite "ghostly"
You can see why they didn’t refer to them as formations or the like, but “bomber streams”.
[Nerd alert] Bomber streams were the tactics devised by the RAF to send their 'heavies' out singularly along a route corridor that allowed planes to space themselves laterally and vertically, the thinking being that individual planes (at night) would be harder targets to find than a whole bunch of B-17s in a 'box formation' in daylight. Once the Germans worked out the target though, it wasn't any harder to find lone Lancasters than it was to find a massive bunch of B-17s [/Nerd alert]
What's everyone's thoughts after a couple of Eps? Personally I'm finding it a bit derivative. The Aaron Copeland-esque musical score (every war film that Tom Hanks get involved with seemingly) doesn't help, and the somewhat corny dialogue and scenes - Here they are on a mission, oh it's much worse than they imagined. Here they are fighting with the RAF. Here they are listening to a big band and larking about...It needs to get much better to keep me watching.
My understanding of the bomber stream idea is that the Germans used ground controllers to guide their night fighters onto the targets. By streaming all the bombers through one narrow corridor, it limited the number of ground controllers and hence the number of night fighters available.
I think the series is fairly mediocre. Band of Brothers was good because it was based on the memoirs of Captain Winters and followed them through training up to the end of the war so you could see the characters grow and evolve. MOTA just seems to have skipped all the character development and goes for cutesy spectacular stuff. I'll keep watching it, but it's pretty average. Pity, it could have been really good if they'd hired a better scriptwriter.
and hence the number of night fighters available.
Sort of, The Germans used a system that divided the night-sky into sectors, once they worked out where the bombers were going, it was easy enough for each sector controller to hand over the information the next in line, then all the fighters had to do was stooge about waiting for the bomber to show up. Window (chaff) disrupted the radar used by Germans that the sector control system broke down eventually, so the Luftwaffe used 'wilde sau' night fighters with on-board radar and experienced pilots to intercept them.
It's just a hobby, I can stop at any time....
followed them through training up to the end of the war
the statistical chances for a USAAF heavy Bomber crew in Europe to be lost on a mission were 1-in-10.
Band of Brothers was good because it was based on the memoirs of Captain Winters
I thought it was based on interviews with several veterans, not just Winters?
Slightly underwhelmed. So far, so "Memphis Belle". Which is a shame, as I was really looking forward to this.
Not that theres anything wrong with "Memphis Belle", a decent wee film.
I thought it was based on interviews with several veterans, not just Winters?
Yup, various members of Easy company contributed to the book.
franciscobegbie
Free Member
Slightly underwhelmed. So far, so “Memphis Belle”. Which is a shame, as I was really looking forward to this.
Not that theres anything wrong with “Memphis Belle”, a decent wee film.
Thats a bit of a shame. The trailer looked very Memphis Belle, but I figured that was just because any WW2 B-17 programme would look a like that at first
I thought it was based on interviews with several veterans, not just Winters?
Based on the book of the same name, by Stephen Ambrose, who talked to quite a few of the veterans involved.
Is this series based on something similar, or are the characters fictional composites? I'm not sure why they'd call the two leads 'Buck' and 'Bucky' if they weren't real people, given that it's hard enough to tell them apart as it is.
the statistical chances...
I think one has to be wary of that sort of startling statistics. It may have been true for maybe a time in '44, although overall The official USAAF history was something like 334,000 sorties and 5500 losses, so a roughly 1-60 chance (between Nov '43 and the end of the war) Still; dangerous work to be sure.
Is this series based on something similar, or are the characters fictional composites?
No, they're all real people (well, the major characters are) the difference is that many of them weren't interviewed or published memoirs Don't forget that BoB was written in the late 80's-early 90's when these guys were mostly still kicking about and still had their marbles, and the writers of the TV series could phone them up and ask them stuff. It's partly why Major Sobel was portrayed like that, as he was dead (suicide) and couldn't really tell his side of the story.
The book Master of the Air wasn't published until 2021, although this series is based on a few other memoirs and histories
Slightly underwhelmed. <br /><br />
After the first two, me as well and seems slightly formulaic, talk about stuff, get drunk, fly a mission, talk about stuff, the end. I’m going to watch episode 3’s apparat flight to Africa and see if I can sustain the series.
Its not Band of Brothers by a long chalk IMHO.
Is this series based on something similar, or are the characters fictional composites?
According to Wikipedia it's based on a book called Masters of the Air: America's Bomber Boys Who Fought the Air War Against Nazi Germany by Donald L. Miller, who is a history professor, and they are real historical characters. No idea what the book's like, but the scriptwriter didn't do a great job of adapting it IMO.
It’s partly why Major Sobel was portrayed like that, as he was dead (suicide) and couldn’t really tell his side of the story.
TBF, Sobel doesn't come across badly in the original Ambrose book. The series makes him look like a bumbling idiot whereas the book makes it clear that, despite his many faults, Sobel was ultimately respected by the men and they credit him for making the Company what it was.
I'm sure that's what probably happened though, but yeah it's not like BoB where they're advancing into different areas and constantly facing different threats - those who make it home will always be relatively safe until the next mission. I'm enjoying it but it certainly hasn't yet grabbed my attention like BoB did. Even though they've managed to portray the danger/intensity/chaos of the missions quite well (the flak, frostbite, not knowing where the hell they are!!) it still seems a little detached unlike the [I]extremely[/I] visceral nature of BoB (and even moreso The Pacific). Will keep watching tho, production values v good & it's not going to be a massive investment of time!After the first two, me as well and seems slightly formulaic, talk about stuff, get drunk, fly a mission, talk about stuff, the end.
the statistical chances for a USAAF heavy Bomber crew in Europe to be lost on a mission were 1-in-10.
There was a puff piece in the Guardian about the series and terrible losses etc. While I’m not belittling the dangers, this kind of overlooks RAF Bomber Command, whose losses were appalling, exceeded only by merchant seamen and the U-Bootwaffe; the chances of completing a 30-trip tour was about 1:4 and worse eg. winter 1943-44
Also for all the talk from the Americans about precision bombing, there’s little practical or ethical difference between area bombing at night and blind bombing through cloud with primitive radar by day.
According to Wikipedia it’s based on a book called Masters of the Air: America’s Bomber Boys Who Fought the Air War Against Nazi Germany by Donald L. Miller, who is a history professor, and they are real historical characters. No idea what the book’s like, but the scriptwriter didn’t do a great job of adapting it IMO.
Available in your local Tesco. (Well, it was in my local Tesco yesterday...)
although if you actually watch the series in the [I]very first episode[/I] they make a point of not releasing any bombs (dumping them in the channel instead on the way home) specifically because they cannot see thru the cloud (and despite having incurred heavy losses to make a fruitless run).Also for all the talk from the Americans about precision bombing, there’s little practical or ethical difference between area bombing at night and blind bombing through cloud
they make a point of not releasing any bombs (dumping them in the channel instead on the way home) specifically because they cannot see thru the cloud
Yeah, in 1943 they may be doing that, they very soon just ploughed on regardless and started just throwing them out when they were 'more or less in the right place' - the same as the RAF.. There was a report that showed (about 1943ish) that bombing accuracy was pretty poor had precisely zero effect. As the folks in charge. Prof Lindemann, Portal, Harris* were already very aware of what the actual purpose of indiscriminate bombing Germany was all about.
*People are quick to label Harris the war criminal, I'm pretty sure he'd be chuffed to find out that his own bosses, who understood perfectly well what was going on, set out the terms of Area Bombing, and could have, at any point, ordered him to stop had they felt a twinge of compassion, have got away blame free...
So far I am enjoying it, it's not BoB, which i think remains one of my favourite series ever, but I am hoping it will ramp up once they get away from setting back story a bit and launch more into the sorties.
For those comments above about the blanket area bombing, there is a great documentary called "Lancaster"
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12384428/
That goes into it and has some great footage in it
ordered him to stop
You know there was another person that could of made it stop overnight.
But he didn't.
Despite everything being lost by the end of 1943.