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I'm in East Dorset and to be honest despite it being home to a strange combination of spray tanned roid rage drunk and Brexit loving retirees the mask wearing in public is pretty good to be honest.
I got told off on another thread for stereotyping when I mentioned that most builders I knew where Brexiteers.
@ p7eaven
Let me try ...
The common issues and enemies:
COVID-19? – Poor health & safety standard perhaps?
Climate Change? – Instead of not cutting down all the trees they blame it on fossil fuel consumption.
BLM – Yes, someone has brainwashed someone. Whose ancestors were not slave before? Even the mighty Genghis Khan was once a slave and the Chinese was still practicing until cultural revolution in the 50s. The list goes on.
Cancel culture? Yes, the winner takes all. You win you set the rules.
Vaccine? – Yes, it's convenient to blame the Conservative govt. No surprise there of the culprits.
Trans issues – A non issue that minority wants to impose on the majority. As usual the same culprits are making a meal of it.
LGBT in general – Another non-issue that is trying to impose.
George Soros – Most Muslim world don't like him. Fact. He is seen as an enemy.
Social distancing/lockdowns – this one is opened to all sides of the clowns i.e. left, right and centre. These people are special.
The Great Reset/WEF – Yes, a lot of left/liberal globalist elite really want this.
The Middle Class – Left/champagne ‘socialists’ - Yes, there are some truth in this.
The BBC – Marxist globalist far-left white-hating - Yes, they can't remain impartial and how much do they pay the some of the so called people working there?
Food supply – Corporate communism - Not sure about this but someone is making loads of money.
Universities/Colleges – Marxists/brainwashers - Actually, this is quite true as me mates know.
Bill Gates – Evil leftist - Not sure about him but he has loads of money.
MSM – liberal-left/Leftist/Marxist propaganda - They probably swing both sides.
Etc
Heres a song about one:
HMHB have a song for pretty much any given subject, it what makes them so wonderful!
We have informed consent and the freedom not to be vaccinated. With that freedom comes consequences. One of those is that others don’t want to mix with you. Sorry if that impacts your international travel plans, or trip to a nightclub. Freedom has a price.
Let me try (some more right-wing populist rhetoric)
Is that your opinion or the opinions of the speakers at yesterday’s rally in Trafalgar Square?
ie what are you ‘trying’?
For clarity - I listed the overwhelming narrative/views of the speakers and influencers/channels who are pushing this so-called ‘culture war’ taken as a whole.
Not my view.
If an anti vaxer stands on a rusty nail do they get a tetanus booster or are they just super careful with that sort of thing?
^^ They would consult their go to influencer on SM for advice.
At the risk of sounding like one of them it is a bit odd that this doesn’t seem to be recieving much
/any coverage on the BBC website. It looks like a fairly big event. Is there a deliberate policy not to cover loony conspiracy nut events?
If you're a leftie or leftie-adjacent, you find out that there are regularly demonstrations in London with hundreds or thousands of people and don't get airtime in the news. And tbh perhaps it's fair enough because they're highly ritualised and don't change anything - I am not sure they're actually news in a democraticish country.
Do not feed the troll.
We have informed consent and the freedom not to be vaccinated. With that freedom comes consequences. One of those is that others don’t want to mix with you. Sorry if that impacts your international travel plans, or trip to a nightclub. Freedom has a price.
Exactly. Except I'm not sorry about it.
Looking at the demographic of the anti lockdown, anti vax crowd, I would say vaccine passports will weed out a certain section of society meaning trips to attractions/locations could be more pleasant in the future. Every cloud and all that.
Anyway, isn't all this anti-vax stuff a lot of trouble to go to, just because you're afraid of needles?
We have informed consent and the freedom not to be vaccinated. With that freedom comes consequences. One of those is that others don’t want to mix with you. Sorry if that impacts your international travel plans, or trip to a nightclub. Freedom has a price.
Sorry. Not sorry.
Another case of an anti vaxx in the US has died of the virus. Sad as any death is, and here theres been hundreds of thousands. But maybe his death will make others on the fringes of anti vaxx deciding the risk is greater than some whatsapp loudmouth
I got told off on another thread for stereotyping when I mentioned that most builders I knew where Brexiteers.
Doesn't make it untrue, though, does it?
Self righteous and judgemental
Absolutely. Self righteous about those revelling in their own stupidity and undermining a clearly understood numbers game re vaccination.
Judgemental - again yes. Judgement of wanton, conscious stupidity and its exposure as stupidity is a key feature of a functioning society. These people are free to indulge their stupidity quietly if they like - just by refusing the vaccine and keeping quiet about it. These bellends are actually advertising and revelling in their stupidity.
Sympathy? It is possible. Everyone makes mistakes. Learn from them, change behaviour, move on. Carry on pushing your idiocy? No sympathy.
Smashing machines in mills didn't do the Luddites any good and this anti-vax nonsense won't do the perps any good either.
FWIW. The builders I know are pretty representative of the Brexit referendum result - split pretty evenly. 60:40 one way or the other at the most.
People who like drinking Carling is probably a more positive correlation.
Your idea of freedom may be medical passports, jabs, a 2 tier society and coercion.
Fortunately a lot of others don’t consider this to be freedom.
"Freedom" is an aspirational concept, you're never going to have total unfettered "freedom" so get used to it. But in the UK we have far more freedom than many other places TBH.
Many of the things cited as putting a crimp on your freedoms are in fact optional, Jabs are optional, vaccine passports aren't actually real yet, and probably unworkable if brought into practice (plus September will be a bit late after everyone's been clubbing highfiving and hugging for 2 months) and like masks and social distancing are now they'll be completely optional.
What people are objecting to are 'nudges' and governments of all stripes have done this since forever, if you want to change the population's behaviour you don't just tell them what to do, you offer some inducements, and push a bit of rhetoric/propaganda their way...
"Freedom Day" was (like most things Bojo sells) massively oversold, and it's clearly an attempt at two things. The first is to get consumer spending in shops, pubs, hotels and bars going again, because we need some tax revenue, the second is a nudge towards "herd immunity".
Yes that phrase fell out of favour because it (rightly) implied the government sees the public like dumb cattle. But I'm pretty sure allowing, but not too actively encouraging, the great unwashed to start doing things that we all know help covid to spread is intended to push infections up to either drive immunity through exposures or simply peesude the unvaccinated to take up the jab.
I'm not a fan of our current government and personally I'd have temporarily traded more "freedoms" to get further ahead of covid infections, the current course of action will still cost lives. But they're still giving you most of the "freedoms" you think you lack.
The real objection seems to be (IMO) that people doing clearly stupid things aren't being told how clever they are for it... Nobody's going to arrest you for being a ****wit, attending super-spreader marches and spouting shite, nobody's making you have a Jab, wear a mask or think about the responsibility you might have for infecting others... Precisely what other freedoms would you like?
Precisely what other freedoms would you like?
Freedom from that nagging feeling that they are dickheads?
Unfortunately that can only come from within.
Precisely what other freedoms would you like?
Freedom from the masonic space lizards and their globalist population reduction agenda?
Some foll would get a fair shock if they visited somewhere with no/little freedoms.
Given the constraints of a functioning society we really don't do all that bad compared to some places I've had the misfortune of working/fortune of experiancing.
Looking at the demographic of the anti lockdown, anti vax crowd, I would say vaccine passports will weed out a certain section of society meaning trips to attractions/locations could be more pleasant in the future. Every cloud and all that.
While I generally support your point of view, the way you are expressing it at the moment makes you come across as a nasty and vindictive piece of work, which I hope isn't your intention.
the way you are expressing it at the moment makes you come across as a nasty and vindictive piece of work
I'm being a bit OTT deliberately. Like the prats in Trafalgar Square.
I actually do think that a lot of places/attractions/restaurants would be much better places if bellends were barred. If vaccine passports and antivax combine to weed out some of the yobbish elements of society, I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.
It already happens. 'Exclusive' locations are priced to exclude (often unfairly) certain strata of society. Vaccine-based discrimination actually does this on a fairer basis. Accentuate the positives and all that.
And stupidity is a human trait I absolutely refuse to pander to.
^^Can’t even begin to agree with that. It also handily plays into their script and fuels the ‘2 tier society/us v s them/Trumpist ‘Leftist Evil Elite VS U Real PEOPLE’/‘class war’ that Plopkins et al are currently propagating, growing and milking for all they can get. Heading US-wards with the kind of binary rhetoric that effectively dismantles a (even slightly functional) democracy and instead pabes way for populism/fascism/idiocracy isn’t the smartest move in my humble opinion.
Fight them with facts by all means, but basically labelling all of those people as some kind of undesirable scum just points back at you and also validates their emerging narrative.
Nonetheless, if I’d witnessed them megaphoning a frightened elderly couple with those sort of vile epithets then I think my fight would have risked going from facts to fists. Either way it just feeds their narrative. Everything does. Attention is oxygen for them and I regret opening the thread tbh
Fight them with facts by all means, but basically labelling all of those people as some kind of undesirable scum just points back at you and also validates their emerging narrative.
Don't care about labels or not but not having to mix with people who are idiots and proud of it is a good thing isn't it?
So you think it is a good idea to pander to stupidity?
@ p7eaven I couldn't agree more with the sentiments you express.
And stupidity is a human trait I absolutely refuse to pander to.
+1.
There are some opinions & views that are bluntly batsh1t crazy. If you find that when questioned you can’t substantiate with sound reasoning, objective analysis & facts - do not be surprised if you find yourself filed thus.
Fox, Hopkins et al are in it for one thing and one thing only.
Attention. They crave it more than anything else.
I’d bet good money most of the speakers on that stage are double jabbed…
I’d bet good money most of the speakers on that stage are double jabbed…
But that would make them hypocritical shit-stirrers - shock, horror - hold the front page.
There are some opinions & views that are bluntly batsh1t crazy. If you find that when questioned you can’t substantiate with sound reasoning, objective analysis & facts – do not be surprised if you find yourself filed thus.
A million times this. 2000 years ago I wouldn't have called a flat earther a moron. In 2021 I would.
The opportunities to be educated, do research etc have never been better.
Fight them with facts by all means, but basically labelling all of those people as some kind of undesirable scum just points back at you and also validates their emerging narrative.
I admire your noble sentiments but when I go somewhere nice and it's full of people dropping litter, fighting, being racist, anti-social etc.... It's not about writing people off from a particular social group, it's about behaviour - there are arseholes from every sector of society.
Fighting people with facts is very pre-2016 of you I'm afraid, now peoples' feelings are more important, regardless of how ill-informed they are.
I admire your noble sentiments but when I go somewhere nice and it’s full of people dropping litter, fighting, being racist, anti-social etc….
Go on then, what do you actually do in those circumstances? What do we as individuals do to try and stem the tide?
Genuine question, I genuinely don't know. I hate the "power" that social media gives these idiots to spread their views, but I'm wary that dannyh's solution starts with running the risk of snobbery and could be twisted until we have an "under race" and all that may result from that
there are arseholes from every sector of society
This.
You have the right to refuse vaccines. We have the right to refuse you service as you represent a danger to others
I would refuse all service to those that refuse vaccines - including drs and hospital clinic for them and a blanket ban on all entry to public spaces. no pubs, no churches, no museums etc etc.
Want to go to your GP without being vaccinated? Wait until the special dickheads clinic on on day a month when the staff are all in full PPE and the building cleaned afterwards. Want get married in a registrars office - off you pop sunshine. Not getting in
I have a feeling that this particular underclass is creating itself, with assistance from the people who will make money out of them, and TJ +1, if they want to behave this way ,then they have to accept the consequences.
Go on then, what do you actually do in those circumstances? What do we as individuals do to try and stem the tide?
Personally I tell them they are being arses and to stop doing what shitty behaviour they are doing. Be prepared to for confrontations and / or running away
And TJ +1 again.
Covid doesn't discriminate in the same way we do socially and politically, it just discriminates between regular people and dickheads. Covid isn't elitist or classist.
If someone isn't vaccinated but still exercises caution and tries not to put others in jeapordy then I can respect that. If they're not vaccinated and not taking any precautions then they are putting others at risk with their behaviour and they are dickheads, pure and simple.
I would gaffer tape a dildo to their heads if I could.
2000 years ago I wouldn’t have called a flat earther a moron. In 2021 I would.
Even then.... 😉
I got told off on another thread for stereotyping when I mentioned that most builders I knew where Brexiteers.
The builders I know are pretty representative of the Brexit referendum result – split pretty evenly. 60:40 one way or the other at the most.
To be fair, builders/trades were the first to be affected by the EU expansion into Eastern Europe (and Tony Blair's open border policy /unlimited numbers) back in 2004.
I used to be a site chippy in the UK.
I remember meeting more and more labourers/site hands coming from Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, etc.
Then came the skilled trades.
A chippy's day rate was around £250 a day (London /Essex). Mate and I were finding it harder as prices were being pushed down. The guys we contracted from were finding it harder to compete with the prices Eastern Europeans were willing to work for.
I can still remember being shocked hearing that they were working for £65 a day and sleeping three or four to a room. 10-15 guys sharing a house.
Great for them, not so much for guys with wife and kids, a mortgage and a life. Mate of mine almost lost his house.
Having said that... Fair play to them.
If you had the opportunity to earn in a week what you would struggle to clear in a month back home, then you'd be a fool not to take it.
Ironically, many of these Eastern European guys have settled, rates have increased again, but it meant that lots of older trades people decided it was time to quit (why keep swimming against the flow?) and others were left jaded and still see forriners as the enemy/job snatchers.
Me? I left the UK in 2008.
Always have been those deemed as outsiders in the construction industry long before the east European workers. Maybe the carrot that was bogus self employment and the unions shrinking were the biggest cause.
And stupidity is a human trait I absolutely refuse to pander to.
+1
Last year there was a big demo in Berlin. Next day phoned I phoned my mate who lives in Berlin and jokingly asked if he was there.... (he's known for being a bit anti state)
"oh ****, man... I don't know what to do!
I only wanted to film (*bearing in mind his phone is ancient and crap I kinda thought this was BS *) and I ended up at the front. I wanted to get away and then the police sprayed me with pepper spray.
I've just been to the shops and I'm on the front page of the Berliner Zeitung! Luckily i turned my face and you don't know it's me."
Obviously, the very next thing I do is a Google image search of the corona demo at Alexanderplatz. The third image that came up was of matey boy, but with his face towards the camera. The image used by the Süddeutsche Zeitung, one of Germany's biggest selling (proper) newspapers! The paper his mother in law gets delivered everyday!
So I download the image. Find a t-shirt printing site and get several t-shirts printed with one of them going directly to his address... 😁
Oh how we all laughed. I say all... He not so much.
I'll save him some dignity....
Always have been those deemed as outsiders in the construction industry long before the east European workers. Maybe the carrot that was bogus self employment and the unions shrinking were the biggest cause.
I can only speak for the eight years I was working in the trade prior to buggering off.
I will not pander to stupidity to spare the feelings of stupid people. It really is that simple.
If an anti vaxer stands on a rusty nail do they get a tetanus booster or are they just super careful with that sort of thing?
the objection to having the covid vaccine isn’t the same as being an anti-vaxer. i know someone who won’t have the covid jab, but isn’t anti vax.
Of course it is - its not a binary thing.
I am vaccination cautious for a variety of reasons but I had my covid one like a shot
the only reason not to have a covid vaccine if you can is you are stupid and believe anti vax nonsense
i’m inclined to agree. but this dude isn’t stupid, but has been turned (radicalized, perhaps) by his social media and internet interests.
i’m not sure how he’ll feel whe people without the vaccine don’t start to die in huge numbers. (well, i do he’ll feel what the stuff he reads on the web tells him to feel.)
what i find more concerning than folk not getting vaccinated is the underlying split and how it will manifest itself next. sad times
Ch4 interviewing Tory MP about the kickback against ‘vaccine passports’. Obviously the civil unrest is playing a part. Lines are being drawn (like a blindfolded fencing match with the onlookers shouting directions) but where…
i’m not sure how he’ll feel whe people without the vaccine don’t start to die in huge numbers.
but he wouldn’t believe that ^ because it wasn’t on russia today!
and i suspect there will be the suspicion that descenters are being “silenced” or that the death certificates of those jabbed are being faked to look like unvaccinated people die.
people actually believe (as you know) that this is a global conspiracy to achieve something that involves killing people.
Crazy ducks!
"This is not simply a difference of opinion."
https://imgur.com/gallery/14cIXoW
Scroll right for the craziness....
Yup… see that vid I posted. Campaigners saying that ambulances are being used to capture well people and take them to their deaths… that staff at hospitals are killing thousands of people to help perpetuate a hoax on the population. It’s bonkers stuff like this that results in hospitals and medical staff being attacked by “protestors”. Mad stuff.
Covid conspiracy types: if anyone dies after getting covid for any reason they put the cause of death down as covid regardless
Also covid conspiracy types: if anyone dies for any reason after having the vaccine then the vaccine was definitely to blame
🤔
Just watched that vid too.
I'm not going to post the words and opinions that I wish to.
These people can't be placated in my opinion.
These people can’t be placated in my opinion.
Agreed.
there’s a book out next month arguing that Tory support is set implode.
I look forward to the Labour Party completely missing this free kick at goal, as bloody usual
These people can’t be placated in my opinion.
They need to be dealt with as a threat to public health. Trouble is, I'm not sure I trust a government to introduce legislation to silence them and not then abuse the power.
These people can’t be placated in my opinion.
No, no....
They need care, nurturing and lots of time spent gently convincing them that they are wrong. You must start with the words "your are entitled to your opinion and you are a valuable human being too". All the time they are wantonly spreading covid.
Or you could call it what it is.
p7eaven
Agreed.
That's an impressive volte face - even by STW standards.
The problem is that, as Andrew Rawnsley wrote in yesterdays Observer, the PM is on the side of the anti-lockdowners. He still doesn't think we should ever have locked down in the first place. By nature, he's with the hardline headbangers in the right of his own party and the loons at that protest
And now he's finally got his way and its 'let it rip' and herd immunity, whether we like it or not.
‘Freedom’ day panders only to Boris Johnson’s real boss – a minority faction in the Tory party and rightwing press
The explanation for Mr Johnson’s behaviour often offered by his friends is that he is reflexively antagonistic to restrictions because he is an instinctive libertarian. This is a poshed-up way of saying that he loathes rules and has a career history of breaking them. If he were a backbencher rather than prime minister, he would almost certainly be among the anti-lockdowners who depict any sensible precaution as a step towards turning us into East Germany.
I don't know if you heard radio 4 this morning, but the son of that anti-vax fruitloop Kate Shemirani (her in the video above) was on saying that his mother is mentally ill and people really shouldn't be listening to her
That is a sad tale. She still gets plenty of cheers though. It's not just one person spreading the idea that thousands have been deliberately killed by doctors with the help of others in the health system, to deny us our "freedoms".
The podium speakers are just an ultra sick real world manifestation of the 'Pop Idol' culture. The one where some Vicky Pollard look-a-like has a studio trashing tantrum after they've been voted off. Voted off after swaggering out on stage giving it 'good evening Webleeeeey' then crucifying 'Girls Just Wanna Have Fun. To the point where everyone is craving actually hearing the original.
Attention seeking by losers looking for a short cut to 'fame'.
She really should be sectioned for her own good, and for the good of the rest of us.
I don’t know if you heard radio 4 this morning, but the son of that anti-vax fruitloop Kate Shemirani (her in the video above) was on saying that his mother is mentally ill and people really shouldn’t be listening to her
I've heard that the whole family gave disowned her views.
At what point does holding crazy opinions not based on any reliable evidence move from freedom of choice to mental illness? Can imagine the damage it would cause to trust in the government's message if people like her were found to need to be sectioned, and again, I wouldn't trust a government not to abuse such powers. "Reeducation camps" anyone?
So when Johnson said "I no longer buy this NHS overwhelmed stuff" - do we think anyone asked him to elaborate on which specific bits?
No, thought not.
That’s an impressive volte face – even by STW standards.
Not that I can see? I said that attention is oxygen for them but I’d probably punch them if I saw them bullying others. That position does not = ‘placate them’ from where I’m sitting?
No, I do not believe they either deserve to nor could be ‘placated’. Yet neither do I think that the majority of those 100s of thousands of people are litter-dropping, fist-fighting, lager-louts.
My liberalism will hang me one day if I’m not stretched already…
These people can’t be placated in my opinion.
Crazy has always existed in societies, they sometimes get attention and close to power, sometimes they just quietly bubble away in isolation
*bubbles, whilst rocking gently*
Stunning and strange insight into the mindset of one faithful ‘anti-lockdown’ rally attendee:
Marching woman: (says she finds her ‘facts’ from ‘groups’ all over the internet, ‘normal regular people and a lot of scientists’)
Interviewer: ‘And why do you think their ‘genius’ hasn’t been more widely recognised?’
Marching woman: ‘You’re shutdown, you’re factchecked (which I’ve never heard of before this year’
😵💫
I find it most sad and telling that she admits she finds companionship and a new kind of purpose in life with the uplifting crowds. This is hardly ever mentioned, but just imagine the empowerment, outpourings of emotion and mutual support they must feel? When you see those tens (hundreds?) of thousand souls in the streets all (sort of) united. Like how it must have been turning up for the prophets of old? And there, on the Mount, giving sermon - is Icke. And then a few others of differing orange hues. It’s a new ****ing cult/religion is what it is.
Trumpism by any other name? Living in a world where everything and everyone is believed to be ‘fake’ or ‘sheeple’, except of course for the faithful and sheepful. That’s like Projection Inception? A cultic knot? A Gordian plot?
Stunning and strange insight
Sorry, I disagree. It's not strange or surprising at all. She was unable to produce any evidence or construct a reasonable argument. She clearly had no insight into her own ignorance. Demonstrated her own vulnerability. Textbook Dunning-Kruger - precisely the sort of person I'd expect to be anti-mask/lockdown/vax. A vulnerable moron.
Having watched the interview, I'm in awe of how James O'Brien steered the conversation, didn't let her get away with the nonsense and then immediately jumped onto her vulnerability with the (faux?) sympathy to make her seem crazy. I wouldn't like to get into an argument with him! He's clearly a very skilled (and dare I say manipulative?) communicator.
make her seem crazy
Did he do that? I thought he made it clear that con people were using her isolation and vulnerability and turning her against doctors and hospitals, which is both dangerous and depressing.
I find it most sad and telling that she admits she finds companionship and a new kind of purpose in life with the uplifting crowds.
Cults win over new (vulnerable people) by "love bombing" them, a carefully coordinated show of affection by people who reflect back to them the feelings and emotions that they've been lacking. It absolutely works, which is why new members of cults can often be the most enthusiastic.
Plus the all-encompassing nature of conspiracy theories now allow a wider range of groups to sign up (it's why Flat Earth's no longer a thing...They all moved to QAnon). Simply put the world used to be simple and understandable and they want it back that way, by asking question about BLM, LGBTQ+ rights, by companies exploiting fragile political regimes, climate change and so on, these issues make everything more complex, and so they have to be stopped. (which is what these folk want) I genuinely think what these folk want is some benign form of dictatorship who'd tell them that all their issues will go away. Pure fantasy, but ever so compelling.
That video is very sad.
I was wondering if we could get a theory started about taking chips being so small they can release them in the air at protests and just in general. The only clear way to prevent you being 'infected' is by preventing them getting into your airways
Ah, so there are other citizen protectors on this forum! I'm glad to see our exciting work finally being revealed to a great audience! I didn't realise our great leader had sanctioned the unveiling yet! Blessed be he! Anyway, us survival engineers need to stick together. What is your role in project NanoVictory?
You mean there was an embargo? No one told me......
Oh well secret is out then. The whole point of these are to allow Google traffic to be in place for walking as well as with cars. Makes it much easier by having to not rely on phones anymore
The follow up made me laugh more...
...and made me want a city break in Moscow.
make her seem crazy
I don't think she needs any help with that.
One of the few things in life that she's got nailed.
#batshitmental
To me she does sound more of a victim than a promoter of the nonsense. Someone to feel sorry for rather than angry at. The fact she has been so wound up by the situation she'd not trust a doctor/hospital to not do her harm after an accident is pitiable.
You are not going to win her back to the sanity fold by telling her she is a dribbling moron and if you presented her with evidence her influencers are dribbling morons that's not going to help either as she's too far into it to believe it.
I guess the only way to carry on now is to hope the sane majority are sufficient in numbers to keep UK transmission rates to manageable numbers, keep the batshits away from the clinically vulnerable as much as possible by making key jobs only available to the vaccinated and not giving too many shits when vaccine sceptics die . My shits are reserved for those in countries still dying in huge numbers where the vaccine is still a distant dream.