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Please help make the return to school safer by enforcing the wearing of face masks in communal areas. Just like shops.
I thought the govt had pretty much caved in on this one already; if yuo want certainty you'll need to be petitioning your local school, more likely
The government have just deferred responsibility to councils/schools in non local lock down areas I believe.
I can see it going the usual way. Ie. They'll eventually follow Scotland....after there are enough infections to make it obvious mind you.😕
if yuo want certainty you’ll need to be petitioning your local school, more likely
And your ‘local school’ needs a clear lead from government if it expects parents to back them up. No clear government instruction will be translated as ‘nannying fussbucket lefty teachers muzzling my kid’ by some.
Vague, noncommittal guidance from this government?
Surely not?!
They’ll eventually follow Scotland
^^ lol, it really is that simple isn't it?
I'll pass on signing the petition thx
I'm not in favour - just let the kids crack on. And anyone with secondary school kids knows they are mixing as normal outside school.
What has been put in place is a perfectly workable solution - Head's know their own school and layouts best. Old schools have narrow corridors, big new schools have wide open spaces and communal areas.
Just politics being played here - and as for Sturgeon - she's the biggest politics player there is. Bet she has a special 'how can we embarrass England today and make me look ace' team.
And anyone with secondary school kids knows they are mixing as normal outside school.
Whilst I agree with your second paragraph, have to say our kids, and the majority of their mates, are still only meeting up occasionally and being careful with distancing. Couple of small groups of kids in the village blatantly ignoring the rules, but surprised how strong it still is here in a village of nearly 5000
People saying 'just crack on' without masks need to ask whether they're considering the teachers' safety as many of them would prefer to see masks worn, especially in communal areas where kids will be moving around shoulder to shoulder. That wouldn't be allowed in most (maybe all) workplaces so why should it be the case in schools simply because we have an incompetent PM and Cabinet?
Bet she has a special ‘how can we embarrass England today and make me look ace’ team.
Boris is quite capable of that. Seems odd that Scotland were following England each week our of lockdown now it’s the opposite. Or may be they’re just watching each other for ideas and seeing how it works and is accepted by the public.
And anyone with secondary school kids knows they are mixing as normal outside school.
I beg to differ, the kids in our area are being more responsible than the adults in the village pub.
Running the village shop I haven't had to prompt a teen once about wearing a mask, the adults on the other hand are a absolute shambles.
she’s the biggest politics player there is
Maybe so. But Scotland have only been following what other countries are doing… the big difference is that she explains and communicates in a way that makes Johnson look like a complete incompetent in comparison. That’s not on her.
And your ‘local school’ needs a clear lead from government if it expects parents to back them up. No clear government instruction will be translated as ‘nannying fussbucket lefty teachers muzzling my kid’ by some.
do they? I think they just need to show some clear well reasoned and effectively communicated logic to where/when they are asking for people to wear masks. If they need some help with that, Nicola Sturgeon's announcement is on-line - she seemed to explain quite clearly the rationale; if you then have head teachers who know the physical infrastructure of their buildings then they can be even more nuanced. Of course head teachers might need to have the skills to communicate with pupils, parents and staff using different tones and language (but you would hope that is the sort of thing that makes you a head).
The issue with allowing "local schools" freedom is some schools will be managed by exactly the sort of people you refer to above - and will decide their school doesn't need "such nonsense", whilst others will be managed by the paranoid who will add their own "extra" rules on top (which may or may not be well thought out!).
Schools shouldn’t have to explain and persuade parents of the need for these measures, that is Johnson’s job. Parents shouldn’t have to explain and persuade heads of the need for these measures either, that is also Johnson’s job. Cuts both ways. An absence of leadership will result in unnecessary mess and conflict.
And anyone with secondary school kids knows they are mixing as normal outside school.
All the more reason to protect the adults in the school by having the students wear masks?
I have two teenage kids; they've been super sensible.
And your ‘local school’ needs a clear lead from government if it expects parents to back them up...
Speaking as a parent (Ungh), I tend to be more impressed by schools taking the initiative and exceeding the "government guidelines" which ours seem to be doing. I will send the kids in with masks on day one and they know to follow any instructions given. Parents that kick off will be few and far between and the issue won't actually be the masks...
But let's be honest, even though the phrase has gone out of fashion, the full return of pupils to schools is still at least part of the 'herd immunity' strategy. More People will be getting CV19 in the coming weeks.
Their right of course the relative risk to students is lower. Of course it's not zero and more importantly the transfer risk posed to teachers, older and/or sheltered relatives and other people that kids WILL come into contact with outside of school hours is substantial. I expect we'll see a solid bit of a mess happening about 3-4 weeks from today, masks in corridors might slow it a tad.
Cummings will be sharpening up the rhetoric & excuses as well as readying a scapegoat and a couple of dead cats should they be needed as we speak. It's a well oiled machine now...
Masks and other actions/measures will also reduce the transmission of other viruses, making Covid-19 less serious and reducing the load on the NHS. It's quite possible that the Excess Deaths figures for the remainder of the year could be negative as a result.
Yup Scotroutes nails it hopefully schools take some initiative of course they could have anyway without Boris saying, well can if you want.
I'm pro-masks but i won't sign the petition. There's a big difference in wearing a mask for a trip to the supermarket that might last an hour at most, to wearing one for an 8 hour school day. The physical discomfort from extended use will be significant for many children and the psychological impact of not seeing friends faces is also very real. It's a big ask of an 11 year old particularly, but also older kids, to shoulder the responsibility for something which is highly unlikely to physically impact them.
It’s a big ask of an 11 year old particularly, but also older kids, to shoulder the responsibility for something which is highly unlikely to physically impact them
They do have a responsibility to limit transmission to teachers so that they in turn can limit transmission to their families, both groups will include the more vulnerable (age, medical conditions etc). Masks in communal areas would involve limited time, especially as schools are likely to be along children not to congregate indoor during breaks.
Def not signing for two main reasons: its for the schools to determine best system within exisiting guidlines. Secondly - no one knows what would be the knock on health impact of getting young kids to wear a mask for 8hrs a day would be. Not only skin issues but lung and respiratory tract impact - wearing a damp cloth on your face whilst oxygenating it then sticking in a drawer overnight to stick bag on your face and repeat ad nausem without control for this length of time all week will not be without significant consequence.
It’s a big ask of an 11 year old particularly, but also older kids, to shoulder the responsibility for something which is highly unlikely to physically impact them
Why do people still not get that masks are about reducing the spread if you happen to have Covid-19, potentially asymptomatically!
Unfortunately, masks or not, we will get schools closed for a few weeks, as the teachers pick up the virus from the kids. Same is happening in factories.
I think that's ^ why schools and businesses are taking things into their own hands, anything to reduce the risk of closures.
Unfortunately, masks or not, we will get schools closed for a few weeks, as the teachers pick up the virus from the kids. Same is happening in factories.
Are you stuck in some sort of Victorian wormhole? There’s no kids in factories.
Secondly – no one knows what would be the knock on health impact of getting young kids to wear a mask for 8hrs a day would be.
As far as I'm aware, nobody is asking kids to wear a mask for 8 hours a day.
They are only to be worn in communal areas like corridors and school buses. They don't need to wear them in classrooms or outside.
In an 8 hour school day they might have to wear a mask half a dozen times in 10-20 minute bursts.
wearing a damp cloth on your face whilst oxygenating it then sticking in a drawer overnight to stick bag on your face and repeat ad nausem without control for this length of time all week will not be without significant consequence.
Or they could use a freshly washed one each day.
The petition makes no reference to communal areas but states "In order to protect our children, face masks should be made mandatory for all secondary education."
The OP has also stated on another thread that they wish for masks to be worn at all times in schools
Boris is quite capable of that. Seems odd that Scotland were following England each week our of lockdown now it’s the opposite. Or may be they’re just watching each other for ideas and seeing how it works and is accepted by the public.
Not really odd at all, where Scotgov looked like they lagged/copied was in opening up post the peak, now they're looking like they lead in terms of decisive action on outbreaks etc. They've been more cautious/sensible on both counts, really.
absolutely would not, ever, consider supporting such a pointless unenforceable restriction of freedom.
if an individual teacher wants to wanna wear one, crack on
absolutely would not, ever, consider supporting such a pointless unenforceable restriction of freedom
How do you feel about masks in shops?
I think masks in shops is daft too but whatever, people seem to be crapping themselves so I don’t want to upset them.
Forcing kids to wear them in school in a ineffective attempt to eliminate some unknowably small risks is a step too far for me!
absolutely would not, ever, consider supporting such a pointless unenforceable restriction of freedom.
And again....
See my previous post. The wearing of masks is a slight individual inconvenience that enables all to have more freedom.
Forcing kids to wear them in school in a ineffective attempt to eliminate some unknowably small risks is a step too far for me!
Yet we've been making them wear ties for decades.
masks in shops - IMO unnecessary as long as reasonable distancing can be maintained, dont mind wearing one just as supplementary, in case there are too many people for the space...cheaper and easier than a full time security guard with a clicker/counter
i dont think there should be (unnecessary) kids in shops - thats some way from essential and increases risk considerably for everyone involved
the benefits of wearing masks reduces to close to zero if they are not worn 'properly' (fitted, adjusted, cleaned/disposed of)
sorry to be contrary, but this little echo chamber needed challenging
the benefits of wearing masks reduces to close to zero if they are not worn ‘properly’ (fitted, adjusted, cleaned/disposed of)
Do you have a reputable, peer reviewed source for that? The close to zero bit
And surely a little education in mask wearing and handling would mitigate it?
not handy, you got one that says im wrong?
Is that how it works? You make stuff up then request others come up specific studies to counter your claim?
Yet we’ve been making them wear ties for decades.
and have you seen how badly they wear them? And those that wear them properly having them grabbed and yanked.
absolutely would not, ever, consider supporting such a pointless unenforceable restriction of freedom
How do you feel about masks in shops?
Or things like wearing seatbelts, breaking the speed limit, driving under the influence?
Bet she has a special ‘how can we embarrass England today and make me look ace’ team.
Shooting fish in a barrel that.
dmorts - no it mostly goes, sit behind keyboard, type "peer reviewed, double blind" against anything you dont wholeheartedly agree with.
you wanna spend your evening proving you are just as right as i am, you go ahead - im gonna take a guess* that there is no scientific review of the effectiveness of poorly worn masks in barely controlled school environments against CV19, never mind one that has been peer reviewed to your satisfaction.
the question was would i sign a petition - the answer was, and remains, no.
if you dont like contrary opinions, you might find you are in the wrong place.
*im off to swap a tyre and oil a chain
They are only to be worn in communal areas like corridors and school buses. They don’t need to wear them in classrooms or outside.
Seems to be the wrong way round to me. Walking past another person or briefly chatting in a corridor is lower risk of spreading that sitting in a classroom for 6 hours with everyone breathing out with no mask. The research shows that the longer a group spends in a room together the more it spreads. So if one kid in classroom has covid they will spread it to all the other kids and teachers.
Those kids will then take it home and spread it amongst their families (who are older and at higher risk of bad outcome) and schools will be all shut again by November.
So if one kid in classroom has covid they will spread it to all the other kids and teachers.
....who are easy to trace, isolate and test.
Random kids in corridors and buses , not so easy
anyone with secondary school kids knows they are mixing as normal outside school.
They being whom?
Some never stopped
Some haven't restarted
A whole load are considering being sent to school with no attempt at social distancing so why bother any more.
Other than free childcare I see little if any reason why ALL kids should be going back to school ALL the time.
anyone with secondary school kids knows they are mixing as normal outside school.
I have three and they're not.
Not really odd at all, where Scotgov looked like they lagged/copied was in opening up post the peak, now they’re looking like they lead in terms of decisive action on outbreaks etc. They’ve been more cautious/sensible on both counts, really.
As per my closing sentence was hinting towards.
Anyway just got an email from the school, they’ve been amazing and sensible through out this pandemic, they’ve asked politely to ask for children to wear them in communal areas. Nothing about ties getting grabbed though.
Non-mask wearing in Wales is working well in shops - just need to keep distance which some folk arent. They seem to have got it right though - still 2m - I spend quite a bit of my time between Wales and England - 50/50 at the moent.
Masks or not, infection rates will rocket next month. Simple maths.
Us 'back office' staff at Universities aren't going back in, to allow social distancing for staff and students that need to be there.
I believe in shops it's the staff that are likely to be at far greater risk due to them spending extended amounts of time in an enclosed environment. Length of potential exposure seems to play a big part. So as a shopper I see it as being more about protecting them than me perhaps. The 2 guys that run my corner shop are in their late 50s and of Indian heritage to possibly more to worry about than most if they catch it. One of them in particular is vey worried about catching it and I feel bloody sorry for him as getting customers to wear masks seems a constant battle for them.
Anyway, much of the above also applies to schools as I see it. I can't see much reason at all that they shouldn't be worn in communal areas.
Whilst the weather was good I took to going for a walk down to an area overlooking a parade of about 8 small shops just to watch the world go by whilst still being near home if I were needed. When masks became mandatory I fully expected those in their teens/20s etc to be the most likely not to wear them. Turns out I was incorrect, middle aged/older men were by far the most likely to go into the shops without a mask. Make of that what you will.
Not throwing mud here, I'm in my 50's.
Anyway, I just find the whole loss of freedom argument most odd to be honest. These are one of the most readily available means we have to start to regain our freedoms surely?
masks in shops – IMO unnecessary as long as reasonable distancing can be maintained,
So why is unreasonable where social distancing cannot occur? Your arguments are not logical.
So if one kid in classroom has covid they will spread it to all the other kids and teachers.
….who are easy to trace, isolate and test.
So one kid in the year group bubble gets it, and we can easily trace the other 240, plus say 30 staff and hope to get them tested before they pass it on to friends, family or other staff. Bear in mind you do not isolate whilst you are just a contact, you isolate when you have symptoms or a positive test result.
What proportion of the unprotected teachers dying is acceptable?
Sadly SEN children seem to be forgotten about when these things are put into place, my son as sensory problems he finds it hard to wear trousers (lives in shorts) let alone a mask, how will these children be treated at school will they be told to leave if they forget to put the mask on when leaving class, we have had no help since lockdown, then a week before they go back we are told this, my son is also starting secondary school which is stressful enough for him as it is.
They’re exempt just like they are in shops.
That's what we thought but the new school he is going to is saying he has to wear one ?
No kid will be turned away from school because they dont have a mask. Schools are getting spare masks for those that don’t have one.
Teachers are worried about catching the virus welcome the wearing of masks in the corridors and social areas.
Kids might not suffer much because of the virus but adults do. Also some people are not getting tested when they have symptoms and their family not self isolating.
It’s not really an issue for most people to put a mask on.
Our school/college is not allowing masks, not reducing class sizes, and not enforcing social distancing in the classrooms.
I want masks to be worn to protect staff and their families. Anyone can spread it regardless of age or even if they have already had the virus. Anyone can spread it.
Just in case anyone missed that. Anyone can spread it. Masks are proven to lower the risk of spreading.
There will be people who cannot wear them due to health but if the majority wear them it will make a big difference.
Sadly SEN children seem to be forgotten about
I completely agree. People on the spectrum of all ages are forgotten about.
not reducing class sizes, and not enforcing social distancing in the classrooms.
They will not be able to do this unless you can magic up new rooms and thousands of teachers
One other way of looking at this. We complain that the government is centralising everything. Here that are providing guidelines and letting people who know there own local situation better make the decisions. Almost makes sense. We gave the government a load of abuse for centralising track and trace and now we are giving them a load of abuse for not centralising the guidance.
^^ I see it more as the government returning to the Great British common sense option personally which I find a little worrying.
I didn't mind the centralisation of the tracing app myself, well, if it had worked anyway. Which is the real point there.
Anyway, I won't take this more off topic.
Just read my email, all staff at my school will get visors and can wear a mask if we want (surprised they thought they could stop us tbh). Kids can wear masks if they want. Seems sensible to me, although my fatalistic approach of just saying **** it schools open crack on is still my preferred option.... I want my own lab and want to do practical stuff!!!
absolutely would not, ever, consider supporting such a pointless unenforceable restriction of freedom
How do you feel about school uniform, and teachers following a dress code? Neither of which save lives.
We gave the government a load of abuse for centralising track and trace and now we are giving them a load of abuse for not centralising the guidance.
The first has been a failure, as predicted. It was the wrong approach, at the wrong time, in the hands of the wrong people. The second is about clear and timely advice that the public can follow, without requiring schools to be the educators of parents in short notice. Every parent in England should know if they should be preparing their child for public space mask use or not… now. Bring back the daily briefings… get the country pulling together rather than apart as regards the return to school buildings.
an article some may find of interest
there's also a link in there to another relating the events at a summer camp early on in the spread in the US.
slightly off topic however for background some may find it useful.
teachers following a dress code
One of my colleagues taught in shorts today. Nothing in the contract that tells you want you can’t and wear apart from suitable clothes.
I want my own lab and want to do practical stuff
Have you read the serc guidelines for practical work. Our issue is not enough kit to go around and they have to clean it afterwards. It isn’t going to be practical to do it in a 50 min lesson.
Thanks to everyone who is supportive of this. All I'm trying to do is make returning to school safe. It's better to have protection in place than nothing at all.
Have you read the serc guidelines for practical work
Good god no, lifes too short for that shit, I am told I cant do pracs so I won't.
‘Non-medical, fabric masks are being used by many people in public areas, but there has been limited evidence on their effectiveness and WHO does not recommend their widespread use among the public for control of COVID-19’
The source of this ‘anti-mask lunacy’ - the WHO website.
I can’t believe that you lot have been taken in by the mask nonsense. All of the research on mask effectiveness in the context of the current pandemic is incredibly poor - please look it up, then have a think about all the flaws in it, before you start proselytising.
The main research papers at the moment are based on studies with rats (so nothing like real world human mask use) or cherry pick (the study of mask use on cruise ships even admits that a large proportion of the population tested positive despite mask use, yet tries to make some spurious claim, with no clear evidence, that mask use produced more asymptomatic cases).
I find it very disappointing that the scientific community has been so vocal in promoting a strategy based on research of the quality of the ‘eating bacon gives you cancer’ variety, that’s normally found being referenced by the tabloids.
JP
There are some very strange opinions on this thread! Ironically, children could learn a lot about morals, ethics and individualism vs collectivism, by observing these kinds of debates.
My own observation is that the government is practically guaranteeing that every pointy-elbowed parent is going to want to argue with the school about something that they have done/haven't done.
Although there will be a few loons who'll want to prattle-on about "liberties" and "freedom" - I think most parents are probably worried about schools not going far enough. The "liberties and freedom" brigade should be used as a critical-thinking case study, but otherwise dismissed.
Other than masks - can anyone think of any other practical way of trying to limit the spread in schools? We can't reduce pupil density (lol) - but maybe we could rotate teachers between classrooms instead of having all the kids move between rooms every hour. Dunno if any schools are going to do that already?
^^ Agree with they word of your post there.
but maybe we could rotate teachers between classrooms instead of having all the kids move between rooms every hour. Dunno if any schools are going to do that already?
Yep, being done, much trickier with older kids who have chosen different optional subjects though, so only yr 7&8 stay in place with 9,10 and 11 moving about but in different parts of the school from eachbyear group.
but maybe we could rotate teachers between classrooms instead of having all the kids move between rooms every hour. Dunno if any schools are going to do that already?
Being done here too. Though only once us teachers suggested it.
Interestingly a lot if parents have been asking what measures are in place to enforce social distancing etc. So to me, people are concerned not enough is in place.
can anyone think of any other practical way of trying to limit the spread in schools?
There isn't a way. Highest risk of spreading is by sitting in the same room for hours on end (mask or not). If schools open it will spread (whether the kids know they have it or not)
Interestingly a lot if parents have been asking what measures are in place to enforce social distancing
I wonder which bit of this is not possible people are struggling with?
I don't get why this is even a debate - the situation in schools would be unacceptable in any other workplace. Just because it's difficult to make a school 'covid secure' (ugh) doesn't mean it's necessary to protect the well being of the employees.
Other than masks – can anyone think of any other practical way of trying to limit the spread in schools? We can’t reduce pupil density (lol) – but maybe we could rotate teachers between classrooms instead of having all the kids move between rooms every hour. Dunno if any schools are going to do that already?
I'd have thought it's glaringly obvious once you dismiss the narratives.
This would take planning ... sadly something that hasn't happened. Like the rest of the government response they pissed away the chance leaving only their option.
There is simply no need for most of the kids to be in school most of the time.
Many of the kids require minimal teaching anyway and school is more social and free childcare.
Even reducing the numbers by half is increasing the distance in class whilst decreasing the chance that one of them is carrying the virus and then decreases the chance of one of them taking the virus home to a vulnerable relative.
Half the class time and increase home learning ... save some time for those need more help by not forcing those who already covered something to be in school.
Most kids are within walking distance of their secondary school anyway.... most kids at secondary can be home by themselves... so why not just work towards the ones that can't ? (Obviously some areas will have more kids travelling long distances... but these are essentially low population density areas at much lower risk.)
We just need to ditch the dogma that education resources are focused on a minority we are unwilling or scared to call out so apply to a majority in some definition of "fair".
We hear how children's mental health will suffer by not going to school... yet no-one seems to bother if them knowing they killed their grandparents/parents/sibling will have a impact on them?
Like A levels this is a mess created by dogma.
There is no reason kids couldn't have taken A levels with a little planning. (little still taking time)
All that was needed were more test locations and invigilators. Empty sports halls, test centres etc. could have been utilised. Ultimately not without risk but this is a set of exams for an hour or so... not going into a school day after day.
Sure some schools may not have covered specifics ... but this could have been adjusted later and really at A level the young adults should be capable of reading the curriculum themselves and downloading required resources.
I wonder which bit of this is not possible people are struggling with?
this ...
the situation in schools would be unacceptable in any other workplace
it’s necessary to protect the well being of the employees
I think it is "expected" schools would/should also protect the families of children and staff..
One of the teachers where OH teaches has a daughter with a very compromised immune system.
She has had to send her daughter to her sister ...
On “density” and “bubbles”… remember that schools and councils have been instructed NOT to re-use non school buildings that might be available to them (closed public libraries etc) as means to spread students (and staff) out. There are of course many ways to reduce transmission when teaching, and the use of masks is not the ideal situation at all, but because this government has hampered and restricted the options for schools over the last six months, this petition is calling for the only mitigation that can be put in place in the short time we have left before most English schools open.
There is simply no need for most of the kids to be in school most of the time.
what?? surely tougne in cheek, or are you aiming this at people in their late teens who have parents around that can supervise them, motivate them??
UNless you are one of the lucky parents that have angle kids that will self willing sit and learn and not fight, get distracted etc etc, then the above statement is.... well bollix..
I don't know about other people, but i've seen a distinct change in character in my kids and some of their friends, now they are seeing them more. I appreciate mine are only 8 and 10, but fro other parents we've spoken to (and my wife is a teacher), parents have said the same..
FWIW - im not to the signature as well. Plenty of good valid reasons, and i do especially like the manky re-used facemark point as well. Wife agrees, the issue is in classrooms, not corridors as all the staff then mix in their staff rooms anyway - so many floored reasons to implement this.