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Sorry another thread.
Haven’t had the news on or followed the other threads.
At some point we will have to reopen the shop. The only realistic way we think we can do that safely is gloves and mask.
Any pointers as to what masks actually work and are comfy to wear that are readily available?
Half the people on the intraweb say masks are pointless and the other say they are essential.
We will need to be able to speak in them and would prefer ones that are reusable.
Our bank has staff in NBC suits and screens ,whereas our green grocer has no protection just a queue of customers outside.
*Awaits thread about drilling loads of holes in a Full face respirator, because it's too hot.
It'll be the shoes and the shorts all over again.
Perchy, I’ve been beaten to it.
It depends on the mask. If masks were pointless then the NHS nurses and care home staff wouldn't be getting so upset about the lack of them. Nor would the DHSC be turning itself inside out trying to get hold of as many as possible.
Our local hardware shop has re-opened with the counter inside the door, and no entry for customers. Once you reach the front of the queue you tell the bloke what you're after and he scurries off into the back and brings it out. There's a perspex screen, (stuff is passed around the side, or brought to the side door if it's particularly big) Payment preferably by card. Could that work for you, or are your customers more 'browsers'?
To be honest, the place is a bloody Aladdin's cave, it's quicker to queue and get someone who knows where stuff is to bring it rather than searching for it, (and getting distracted by all the tools and stuff).
edit - with the masks, to have any chance of filtering viruses inwards, you need the FFP3 ones. The few layers of fabric type is to catch big cough droplets spraying out of you protecting your customers, (or at least giving that impression)
Our customers are definitely browsers.
Certain customers look at all the cards in the shop then want to look through all the cards in the store room. Then come back the next day to swap it for a different one.
The government and industry needs to be manufacturing and pushing reusable and washable 'fashion style' masks right away.
France is looking to manufacture 15 million of them a week (to be made available at chemists), realising the part they have to play in the easing of lockdown. It also leaves more medical style masks free for health providers.
In the UK the narrative pushed is that if the public wears masks they are depriving the NHS because of short supply, a narrative amplified by endless conjecture as to the effectiveness of masks. The simple answer would have been to encourage the uptake of fashion style masks sometime ago. It might even have helped to arrest the spread of the virus amongst the public and left the medical grade stuff for healtcare workers so a few less nurses, doctors and carers would have died.
Gloves are really only useful if you keep changing them (unless you have lots of fresh cuts and sores perhaps). Just wash your hands. Medical staff though their glove away after every use. Cross contamination.
Certain customers look at all the cards in the shop then want to look through all the cards in the store room. Then come back the next day to swap it for a different one.
Oh, could take you a while to serve at the door then. 😁
With regard to he washable masks inkster mentions, my German employer is getting 5x for every employee to use and give out to their family, even us UK based workers. They are generally a pretty progressive company to work for.
If masks were pointless then the NHS nurses and care home staff wouldn’t be getting so upset about the lack of them. Nor would the DHSC be turning itself inside out trying to get hold of as many as possible.
While I don't claim that masks are useless it is not a fair comparison. Most of us are not working in the the environment medical and care staff work in full of highly infectious and vulnerable people.
You can get re usable FFP3 3M masks.. probably only get them on eBay for a ridiculous amount of money.
Edit.. I think eBay are removing mask listings
France is looking to manufacture 15 million of them a week
If the people I'm in (Whatsapp) contact with are representative then the French are making more than that themselves. Here's my first attempt at an AFNOR standard mask. The old 50s Singer I dug out to make it blew two PCB filled capacitors when I first turned it on and dripped the awful stuff everywhere. Having decontaminated the thing it then required hours of filing and tweaking to stop it breaking thread and needles. Better than joining the 50 odd people in the queue outside Lild yesterday to buy a sewing machine.
Did you eat his liver with a nice Chianti, Edukator?
I prefer Bordeaux or Jurançon.
Gloves are single use. If youre not disposing ir washing them after each potentila exposure they're pointless, other than to give a false sense of security.
Two types of mask in this instance. Face fitted ffp3 will protect both the wearer and others pretty comprehensively. They are heavier, more uncomfortable and will bot provide comprehensive protection if you become lazy with fitting them properly each time you put them on.
The surgical style masks are to protect those that the wearer interacts with, by catching most of what comes out in a sneeze or cough of breathing. For the wearer of those, the protection levels against repairable microscopic bio aerosols are laughable.
You need FFP3 masks to protect you, FFP1 surgical type masks give other people protection from you. The latter work to some extent if everyone wears one, stops them exhaling contaminated droplets everywhere, the mask will catch them. A surgical FFP1 mask won't protect you very well as it's not tight fitting.
In clinical settings they prefer full face shields in addition to the mask to protect everything, including the eyes from coughed or sneezed virus. Main transmission routes are eye, nose and mouth.
Gloves, as above, pointless unless changed regularly, better off washing your hands properly, regularly.
Edukator,
Cool, good to see that the public there are one step ahead and seemed to have grasped what has proven to be so elusive here. (not just in the country but on some of the threads on this forum)
Apparently the best non surgical masks are made of 4 layer, high thread count waxed cotton.
Funny how the government here approached Barbour and Burberry to help produce PPE a month ago, companies with no experience in manufacturing PPE equipment but currently sitting on mountains of high thread count waxed cotton.
I also run a shop, bought a box of masks at the start of this, through NFR (national federation of retailers), they were the 'proper' disposable medical grade ones - a box of 50 masks cost me £45.
However - they are only rated for around 20min. So id go through a box in day. i donated them to the local hospital.
We've a local sewing group doing nice looking, more comfortable, fabric ones & ive one of those if it becomes compulsory.
Half the people on the intraweb say masks are pointless and the other say they are essential.
You're an employer. The opinions of a bunch of randoms on the internet don't matter and aren't any defence either. Get your advice from the HSE's website.
Retail environment.
Everybody wears face covering.
Hand sanitizer dispenser by the door. (Better than gloves)
Temperature check before entry to premises.
AFNOR keep up-dating their model. Too many layers and you can't breathe through it. They've taken out the padding because that required quilting and the sewing holes to quilt reduced the performance more than th estuffing increased it. The current model is just two layers of close weave cotton such as a quality bed sheet or thick t-shirt.
I've got couple of FFP3 masks bought for DIY which are more comfortable and a better filter but Madame will need two masks a day for work.
Edit: we did a shop in shop for the first time in 6 weeks yesterday, all but one person had a mask on. There's not much point locally, no new cases in Béarn in over a week according to our doctor.
Everybody wears face covering.
Hand sanitizer dispenser by the door. (Better than gloves)
Temperature check before entry to premises.
unfortunately, In retail you want as few barriers for customers as possible....
We've a hand wash facility outside, only about one in ten customers use it. Again about one in ten uses a mask, and one in five has gloves.
I've a clear screen between myself and the customer at the till which is much more comfortable than a mask for 8 hours a day - but people will walk around the screen to talk - because they see it as a barrier - so i had to impose other methods to stop this.
Temperature check before entry to premises.
Temperature checks are a poor at best (hence why they were not implemented in airports) indicator and loads of false positives.
FFP2 is the recommended standard for a clinical setting where the user will have close interaction with a patient (e.g. whilst intubating).
As you won't easily (and morally should not be able to) procure a pukka 3M (etc) mask, the talk of members of the public obtaining and correctly fitting FFP3 masks is a bit daft.
Wear whatever face protection you have access to and can wear comfortably (no point wearing if it irritates and you're constantly fiddling with it). In the end, we are going to have to behave responsibly as individuals and hope that every one we come in to close proximity with is doing the same.
Acknowledge your real world experiences monkey.
You've tried to establish protocols in the absence of clear directives.
The measures I outlined are those that my partner has been experiencing whilst she's been stuck in Kenya. They were protocols implemented by the government 5 weeks ago, them's the rules. I'm not saying those protocols have been observed nationwide but it's certainly been her experience within her Nairobi neighbourhood.
Kenya and UK experienced their first cases about the same time. Last time I looked, Kenya CV deaths, 30. UK deaths 30,000 (and the rest)
Brick,
Yes, they are a poor indicator at best, but an indicator none the less.
Better safe than sorry. It's no less reliable than the self quarantining protocols we have in place now, whereby you are asked to self isolate if you've been in close contact with someone infected irrespective of wether your are infected or not.
"Sorry, you can't come into the shop because your temperature reading is too high. We're not saying you're infected it's just that we're not taking risks"
Every little helps and in an environment where outcomes can become exponential, a little can become a lot, in both the positive and negative sense.
It's not about being right it's about not being wrong.
Over here (Sweden) we have a lot of clear plexiglass shielding off staff from customers, the idea bing that you can still interact, but that droplets etc are stopped by something that you can disinfect. We also have a lot of 'håll avstand' stickers on the floor to encourage people to stay back.
That said, we're a little more used to giving space in shops.
Have you thought about visors as opposed to face masks?
Over here (Sweden) we have a lot of clear plexiglass shielding off staff from customers, the idea bing that you can still interact, but that droplets etc are stopped by something that you can disinfect. We also have a lot of ‘håll avstand’ stickers on the floor to encourage people to stay back.
Pretty much how the uk have also been doing it for weeks in the supermarkets and garages.
As mentioned gloves or pointless unless you change them regular, it pisses me off seeing people pull up in the car with them on then wander around the shops. Use sanitiser.
The right masks protect both that includes surgical masks fitted properly FFP2 is what health care should be wearing for all patient contact. Tallpaul for AGP procedures such as intubation staff should be wearing FFP3 gear.
The NHS wear mask/gloves for doing set procedures, so in essence time limited and procedures for donning and doffing the PPE.
I wouldn’t wear gloves, just wash your hands regularly, don’t touch face, touch surfaces.
Masks - hmm IMO either wear a mask and goggles or just get on with it. Masks are time limited items anyhow.
WHO recommendation is minimum FFP2 for AGP.
WHO recommendation is minimum FFP2 for AGP.
PHE however say FFP3
Kenya and UK experienced their first cases about the same time. Last time I looked, Kenya CV deaths, 30. UK deaths 30,000 (and the rest)
Correlation and causation are not the same thing. Anyone can see that Britain and Kenya are fundamentally different at every level of society. if you're really using this to justify your argument then you don't know as much about it as you think you do.
I was round our local Tesco earlier, wearing a face covering as recommended by ScotGov (it was a Buff) . I was the only person doing so.
Yeah Kenya you do keep bringing that up on as many threads as you can.
You're not a real science officer are you?
So I appear not to be stupid but I am actually stupid? Could it be that what I said appeared sensible but for some unspecified reason I have to be stupid?
Correlation and causation are not >>necessarily<< the same thing.
Sometimes there can be a correlation between correlation and causation.
It's not the fundemental differences in society that are relevant here, it's the fundemental differences in government actions and directives.
Kenya and UK experienced their first cases about the same time. Last time I looked, Kenya CV deaths, 30. UK deaths 30,000 (and the rest)
I am afraid this is not a valid comparison. Raw numbers comparison are poor at best due to different recording structures testing etc before you get into population size , density distribution, demographics, health care system, international interconnectivity.
Drac,
Kenya might yet have a huge outbreak. Doesn't change the fact that in the past 2 months they have managed to suppress the virus better than us due to the actions and directives of their government.
I'm using it as an example because my partner is out there at the moment so I'm keeping up to date with what's going on there and can compare actions and outcomes from 2 countries who share a similar timeline with regards initial cases.
I know what Kenya police and security services are like thank you very much and news about Africans in desperate poverty and turmoil is the only news we ever see in the West. It makes us feel so much better about ourselves.
You and I'm not a scientific officer could have a look at the Newsnight segment from last week where they were describing how much better South Africa had done than us in suppressing the virus.
Yes, they are a poor indicator at best, but an indicator none the less.
You could say the same about many things. That's why we have to stick to what is shown to work rather than "it must be better than nothing" or similar. So gloves, no point, hand sanitizer / washing facilities point. Perspex for workers point, temperature checks with by unskilled individuals without access to other information about the person, no point.
Okay brick,
Consider all those variables you mentioned and then come back to me with a number. Will that number account for a difference of a thousand to one?
Are you suggesting that positive actions from S.A. and Kenyan governments bear no correlation to the slower rates of infection they have seen thus far?
Just to be clear, all I am suggesting is that there is a correlation between gov't actions and number of infections.
between gov’t actions and number of infections.
I'm pretty sure Scotland's lockdown would be more effective if the threat of being shot hung over us.
But yeah you just keep telling yourself it's all to do with folks wearing masks..
Yes, you could say the same about many things being poor indicators. That's why I did, comparing it to current quarantine protocols.
Doesn't mean either are pointless though.
Tp biker,
Whenever I've bought up how Africa has dealt with the crisis the most common response has been 'but they shoot people don't they.'
Talk about correlation!
It is all to do with people wearing masks (among other things). Now go and stick a pair of Y fronts on your hid like your PM told you to and stop scaring Agnes when she's trying to buy her yoghurt at the supermarket.
they have managed to suppress the virus better than us due to the actions and directives of their government.
Shooting kids for standing on a balcony is a bit over the top.
Our local hardware shop has re-opened with the counter inside the door, and no entry for customers. Once you reach the front of the queue you tell the bloke what you’re after and he scurries off into the back and brings it out
C'mon guys, we've let Inkster distract us from the key fact revealed on this thread.
Somewhere there is now a hardware shop where we can go and do the full Four Candles sketch!
When I go back to work on the 18th we've got to wear masks, which will be a world of fun scaffolding
We'll need 4/5 a day each
Now we just need to find a shop where we can buy a dead parrot.
Now we just need to find a shop where we can buy a dead parrot.
Let's not blow all the fun in one day, need to spread it out
I've been working earlier so I don't have to contact the NHS staff that come in with their uniform on. Don't wear a mask and I don't wear gloves. Have to have a laugh at the people wearing masks that do **** all and the glove wearers especially when they touch their faces. People need to stick to social distancing and don't go out unless they really need to.
Plenty of fun to go, we've yet to establish wether the parrot died of Covid 19 or wether it was shot.
Best not to laugh with your mouth too wide open if you're not covering it When in public. Have you thought about limiting your sense of superiority by smirking instead?
Safer for all concerned, though not as funny I'll admit. Let's leave the humour to parodying sketches from 1970's comedy shows.
You can stick to social distancing and no go out unless you really need to and cover your mouth and nose at the same time. It's not an either or, just takes a little concentration.
Agree about gloves though, better to wash and sanitize hands more regularly.
Weak evidence that masks may help when out in public although it is week. FFP3 masks only needed for aerosol generation - so anaesthetic and certain surgical procedures and certain types of ventilatory support. Total overkill for non healthcare settings.
Material masks may be a better solution as can be washed on high temps. Standard surgical masks should be discarded after each use and are non cleanable and non reusable (and contain plastic) so everyone using them will generate massive amounts of non recyclable waste...
One thing about the Kenya response did make me laugh though.
They didn't declare a state of e emergency, they declared an official 'State of Disaster'
A state of emergency suggests 'there's some bad shit on the way, but we've got it covered
A State of disaster suggests 'a situation beyond our ability to control is happening, we haven't got a second to waste.'
mehr
SubscriberWhen I go back to work on the 18th we’ve got to wear masks, which will be a world of fun scaffolding
We’ll need 4/5 a day each
So your outside mostly, we have been working flat out since way before "lockdown light" started in 30deg+ heat and high humidity wearing full masks like these
So what do you do when scaffolding round an asbestos structure?
How good are decent DIY masks for this? Ive got a few P3 respirators kicking around - are they any good?
Do you plan to undertake any Aerosol Generating Procedures? If not type IIR 3ply fluid resistant will see you right...
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/wuhan-novel-coronavirus-infection-prevention-and-control
I am afraid this is not a valid comparison. Raw numbers comparison are poor at best due to different recording structures testing etc before you get into population size , density distribution, demographics, health care system, international interconnectivity.
Agree,
Plus age is a big risk factor and many African countries have very few old people.
Pretty clear (shocking) graphs showing this on the last Gresham lecture with Prof Whitty (it's on youtube).
Good article in Irish Independent today on why gloves are a rubbish idea in many circumstances.
You should also read what the WHO has to say on widrspread mask use.
Neither is supportive of widespread use and the WHO piece in particular is quite simply and concisely put.
Newsnight just now, In Germany, face masks mandatory on all public transport and in all shops.
Ewan,
Home made masks great. Anything covering your mouth and nose good.
Outofbreath,
If you don't like Africa comparisons then how about Greece? Slovenia? Chzeck Republic and Austria? (less than one percent of Austrians thought to be infected.) They all implemented early lockdown, similar to Kenya and SA and are seeing results similar to Kenya and S.A..
Explain to me why these comparisons are not valid, using any of the examples relating to pop density, age, international connectivity, demographics, health care systems etc. And why do you think their recording structures are worse than ours? They're better than ours because they have been on top of contact tracing from the start.
You keep on arranging deckchairs on the Titanic, I'll put on a life jacket. (It'll help with social distancing if nothing else.)
Have been working this week on a resident apartment block.
It’s fine when we are on the roof or over the side cleaning the windows as even where the sets of windows/balcony glass are long runs we actually need to be around 2-3m apart due to where the rigging points on the roof are.
When we are moving through the building/in public areas I’ve provided and asked the guys to wear those ‘surgical’ type masks and gloves.
I’m pretty sure their effect is going to be minimal but I want us to do what we can; if we can minimise the chances of one of us infecting a load of residents by using them, great. If not, at least we look like we are doing something to reduce the risk.
When someone argues that the effects of a mask are minimal, they're admitting that there is some effect. Why would you not grab at this minimal effect when this could end up being the difference?
I live in Austria, we've been told that masks will help, not in catching the disease, but against spreading. You rarely see medical masks, people have made their own or use buffs etc. It's the normal now and no big deal.
Same question again, why not? People are accepting being furloughed, not seeing elderly relatives for months, but wear a mask, no chance!
Next we'll be asked to wear helmets when biking, whatever next!
I work in the asbestos industry and have to wear a fully face fitted ffp3 half mask when working in asbestos enclosures or surveying, when I'm working in low risk settings I wear a disposable ffp3 mask. Our supplier is out of filters and masks and there is no time scale on their arrival, which is a bit of a problem for me.
I've been working right through lockdown and my experience of it has been that people who are still working on sites right now don't really give any care or though to social diatancing let alone wearing RPE. Best of luck to us all when the rest of you come back to work, it will be chaos.
When I said DIY mask, I meant one for DIY, not one I made. They're 3m P3 masks I have for working with MDF. Are those as good as the medical ones?
And why do you think their recording structures are worse than ours?
I didn't say worse, I said different.
This new article begins to shows why comparisons are difficult.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52530918
I don't think anyone is saying the UK did everything right, there are lots it could have and should have done differently but comparisons must be made on valid metrics. The use of ppe must be of the correct type and where appropriate. To every complicated problem there is a simple solution, and it's wrong. (Can't remember who to give reference for that quote).
So cutting to the chase the easiest option is to ask all our customers (as a courtesy to us) to wear a simple cotton mask and for us to do the same as a courtesy to them?
We would obviously limit numbers in the shop and keep our distance.
so everyone using them will generate massive amounts of non recyclable waste…
This is worrying.
I'm up for wearing a mask if it means freedom.
Prime opportunity to use my Bugatti Owners Club silk scarf to
a) stop the spread of my evil germs
b) pretend I'm robbing a train
c) pick up some rich housewives
I was round our local Tesco earlier, wearing a face covering as recommended by ScotGov (it was a Buff)
That was going to be my approach, sure I had heard official guidance saying two layers of cotton with a sheet of kitchen roll in the middle?? Sounded like a folded over buff + kitchen roll to me...
Our customers are definitely browsers.
Certain customers look at all the cards in the shop then want to look through all the cards in the store room. Then come back the next day to swap it for a different one.
If you are going to bother with face masks and hand sanitiser I would implement a 'you touch it you bought it' rule and no returns.
Checkout at the supermarket let slip that anything that reaches checkout and does not get sold for any reason is junked not put back into stock.
I read somewhere that cotton would catch/stop 95% of droplets etc. Better than nothing. But my worry is it will make people think they're safer and not distance.
Best still keep your distance and wash hands though
I bought three buffs to wear as a mask (only one at a time) until proper masks start appearing in the shops again.
If wearing masks becomes compulsory I do fancy having one of these with me...
"Why yes, I am a dick..."
Gloves are single use. If youre not disposing ir washing them after each potentila exposure they’re pointless, other than to give a false sense of security.
No they aren't ...
Medical staff though their glove away after every use. Cross contamination.
Medical staff have to be careful they don't transmit other pathogens, not just a weak virus.
Double glove and disguard in a bag then leave in food grade bleach for a week before rinsing out the bleach.
As you won’t easily (and morally should not be able to) procure a pukka 3M (etc) mask, the talk of members of the public obtaining and correctly fitting FFP3 masks is a bit daft.
I bought mine and spare filters start of Feb when it was obvious this was going to be a huge issue. By early March when Boris was saying we had plenty this confirmed we would have a critical shortage.
Full FFP3 face mask and 2x FFP2
I had to use 20 or so of the FFP2 filters because I was dealing with mould spores that won't just die by themselves after a day (or week) or even a year.
If they were being used for Covid I'd just let them dry and leave for a week before reusing and wash the rest of the mask in IPA.
Zippykona,
Cutting to the chase, yes.
13thfloormonk, I've done the same, buff layered with folded kitchen roll.
Ewan, I've also used a diy type mask under a buff, helps space it out a bit. Rule of thumb, anything better than nothing, well made 4 layer cotton, washable 'fashion' style mask best for general public.
Eddiebaby, winning and losing at the same time.
Brick,
Thanks for responding. You quote that for every complicated problem there's a simple solution and its wrong. Here's where we disagree. I'm suggesting that for this particular problem there is a simple solution, shut down as early as you can. It doesn't solve the problem entirely but it makes it exponentially less worse.
I have made a few comparisons, accepting variables, saw a close enough correlation between Austria and Kenya to infer that speed of lockdown might be the most significant mitigating factor.
Keeping on track, I am suggesting that wearing face coverings could be as significant a factor as lockdown itself and the two things need to operate in tandem.
All those things we should have done but didn't we should still do, and do with haste.
Have to have a laugh at the people wearing masks that do **** all
They might not do a huge amount to stop you getting the virus, but if you're contagious and don't realise it they are effective at protecting everyone else.
Czechia has insisted on masks for everyone (DIY mostly) and they've barely been impacted by coronavirus. California has also gone down the mask route too.
Right now it seems a sensible precaution and it's not like anyone has much else to do with their spare time. Also would seem sensible to insist that medical staff change out of their uniforms before they go shopping after their shift.
"Also would seem sensible to insist that medical staff change out of their uniforms before they go shopping after their shift."
They should do this anyway as part of infection control