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I'm just listening to Alchemy Live and his guitar work is simply sublime. For me he is up there with Gilmour, Page, Clapton, Moore (RIP *sniff*) et al.
Thoughts?
Good technically but no soul. IMHO.
No soul? I've got to disagree there: His playing is as soulful as anyone. he may not play the blues all the time, but that doesn't mean he doesn't play with soul.
As I say - IMHO. I prefer Gallagher, King, Green (in his pomp) et al. Saw Dire Straits in 1982 and they were a bit meh.
He's certainly a very good guitar player however in the fingerstyle world where his main influences come from he's nowhere near the likes of Chet Atkins, Richard Smith, Doyle Dykes or Tommy Emmanuel. Indeed he's commented that when he's played with those guys they took it easy on him.
Where he is/was world class is song writing especially in the 70's and 80's. He also can write a mean riff.
I'd also disagree that Page should be up there. Nothing special as a player (look his old live performances on YouTube where he's generally very sloppy) but again he's a good song and riff writer and in the end that's what gets you noticed and remembered.
Agree on the song/riff writing. Just listening to the Local Hero track on the top movie tunes thread. One of my all time favourite films and partly down to the soundtrack.
I'd also disagree that Page should be up there. Nothing special as a player (look his old live performances on YouTube where he's generally very sloppy) but again he's a good song and riff writer and in the end that's what gets you noticed and remembered.
To be honest, I agree with you. I only threw Page in there as I know a lot of people rate him.
On the comparison to other finger style players: You are probably right, but then again he didn't play traditional finger style music, at least not with Dire Straits. That only really seemed to come to the fore after DS began to wind down (as far as I know), when he started doing duets with the likes of Chet Atkins.
I think if you took a general top 100 guitar players from rock n roll, rock and metal you'd have to say they're all so technically competent they could mimic each others style if they really wanted to. It's their own personality coming through that makes them unique.
I don't really see much personality coming through in Knopfler, though he's great technician.
I was a huge fan of Dire Straits for Sultans onwards and remember seeing them live in Edinburgh. I don't think I've ever been more disappointed at a concert. The music was technically brilliant and was executed just like the recording - but maybe that was the problem. There was no "stage presence" at all and I'd have been as well sitting listening to the albums at home.
Edit - wot jimjam says
You're up on me then as I've never seen them live. I'm just going by Alchemy live and I get loads of personality coming through his playing, but if it does't get through to the audience then it's irrelevant. The live version of Sultans of Swing on Alchemy is vastly superior to the studio version.
I love dire straits and when you first try to learn one of Mark knopflers songs on guitar it seems daunting as he doesn't repeat stuff over and over like most guitarist. However as soon as you start you realise he only plays very small phrases and it becomes very easy to learn. So technically his style is not that difficult, musically I think he's fantastic. Brothers in arms is full of feeling.
Have you noticed that the headband has got bigger and bigger over the years?
And his studio is just round the corner from my office.
Blimey, I just discovered he played with Brewer's Droop for a while. No, no. He didn't HAVE Brewer's Droop whilst playing, that was the band he was in. I remember seeing them in Bridlington. "It ain't the meat it's the motion".
He writes good songs, plays catchy riffs and sings in his delightfully understated manner at the same time. Not easy, those who say his stuff is easy to play probably aren't singing over it or replicating his changes of pace that give a euphoric feeling where it's needed. That and the guy who played rhythm on a Tele behind who kept things moving along.
I don't agree with any technically competent player being able to mimic any other. On easy stuff maybe but once you've learned to do bends/pull offs/vibratos/tremolos a particular way it takes a long time to learn to do them another way - and do you really want to?
Chrissie Hynde has played with lots of lead guitarists and none play the Chaingang break the same as Billy Bremner's version on the single. Billy plays the run down with a bend that goes fast up then slow down on the fifth fret followed by a slow bend down to finish on the second; it gives it that sad country feel. Watching Youtubes one guy doesn't do the first bend at all, another adds lots of vibrato and replaces the middle bend with a hammer on. It's always instantly recognisable but each guitarist gives it his own feel.
I'd also disagree that Page should be up there
Like arguing that Hendrix should not be up there was an awesome session guitarist even before Led Zep and I would ignore the opinion of those who dont rate him personally. He will be in the top 10 of any list of the best guitarists.
Guitarist depends - I knew someone who rated him as you could always tell it was him as soon as he started playing but I just dont like what he plays so cannot really say whether he is a good or a great guitarist as i think what he is doing is shite.
Competent but shite- Phil collins with a guitar 😉
YMMV
FWIW i always enjoy threads where those who dont play the guitar tell us what its like to play the guitar
You may as well argue that Danny Mac can do streetstyle BMX as its just a bike - of course he can but he would not be in the same league as the guys who just do that even though its just a different "style".
I'm a big fan of Knopfler, whilst maybe not as technically brilliant as some, his ability to "hold back" is what makes tracks like Telegraph Road (live) so utterly mesmerising.
A real story teller, I cant think of one track where he over-egged it which is the downfall of a lot of technically brilliant guitarists.
Sonny Landreth & Mark Knopfler - Blue tarp Blues
For me, it's his ability to integrate his guitar into the song, rather than have it as what feels like an accompaniment to the story told in the song. The lyrics and guitar part are effortlessly synced 🙂
Like arguing that Hendrix should not be up there
Hendrix took rock guitar to new places and was doing stuff no one else was at the time- playing lead and rhythm at the same time, extreme whammy bar, use of controlled feedback etc as well as being a good songwriter and singer. Even the likes of Clapton was shocked by his abilities. I don't think that Page ever got to that level. There were also lots of good session guitarists around back then. I still maintain Page is on top ten lists because of his song writing and because he was the guitarist in the biggest rock band there may ever have been- not because of any supreme ability on the guitar.
BTW Junky I do play.
Agreed, Maxtorque.
Too many guitar heroes play over songs rather than being a part of them. I'm not going to enter into a best 100 debate but Knopfler's playing works perfectly with the rest of the band.
Peter Green was cited above but there were three excellent guitarists playing complementary guitar parts on the early Fleetwood Mac tracks. Lynard Skynard's Sweethome too. Slade's Get Down Get with it and Keep on Rockin' (hears lots of STwers muttering "WTF") had Noddy laying down the rhythm line on his Tele with Dave (who would never make a top 100 list) playing a complementary part and Jim (a really very good bassist) using the middle rang of his base to play another complementary line. The total being much greater than the sum of the parts.
There were also lots of good session guitarists around back then
No there were two [ who were considered the best]and he was one of them despite being a not very good guitarist and respected only for the songs he had yet to write 😉
You also forget to mention the Yardbirds - for whom he started out as the bassist before becoming a lead guitarist
I disagree but one of the great things about music is that we all like different things.
I am not a massive fan of Hendrix but i would never ever diss him as a guitarist for the reasons you note.
What do you play - I only play classical stuff these days FWIW and in that you get technically difficult pieces that sound dire and easy pieces that sound beautiful Of course the best pieces do both
What do you play - I only play classical stuff these days FWIW and in that you get technically difficult pieces that sound dire and easy pieces that sound beautiful Of course the best pieces do both
Messed about with electric rock and blues for years but during the last year I've been learning acoustic fingerstyle- its like starting all over again as you need more left hand strength and a completely different set of motor skills for the right hand. So I guess I'm delving into the same hinterland as Mark Knopfler. Its opened up a whole new world of guitar appreciation and given me a new perspective on the instrument. I've found some fantastic players that have a musical and technical ability way beyond most rock guitarists but because they don't write hit records people have never heard of them.
I agree you can't judge a guitarist just by technical ability e.g Steve Vai has more technical ability than Mr Page but with one or two exceptions, his music leaves me cold. I'd rather listen to a Led Zep album any day.
Odd thread, really. Listen to him, decide if you like him. That's all there is too it, guitar playing isn't a competitive sport...
I have a really good mate called Patrick who lives in Leeds, is a very good guitarist. He used to work at a paper in Leeds and Knopfler was at the same paper as a cub reporter or something. Patrick was his kind of boss. They got put together because they knew Knopfler played. Patrick invited him round to his place for a jam session and a smoke and a drink. Knopfler turned up and as Patrick was making him a drink he started to play. As Patrick said "He was very very good a little bit special"
Odd thread, really. Listen to him, decide if you like him. That's all there is too it, guitar playing isn't a competitive sport...
Yes and no.
But as someone who has never even picked up a guitar, it's interesting hearing what people who can play think about musicians I listen to.
Musicians are the last people you should ever talk to about music.
🙂
It's about how it makes you feel.
Nothing else matters.
It's fun talking about guitar geekery, but that's all it is.
Anything that get's in the way is irrelevant - other people's opinions especially.
🙂
I play guitar, I listen to guitar, I have no idea who is better than whom 😉
Subjective stuff, for me you could build a good argument that Jimmy Page is the most accomplished guitarist ever. And Led Zep are the highwater mark of rock n roll (and high up in several other genres).
I really like Mark Knopflers playing also. I like guitar music.
[url=
vai, irritating noodling over a bland backing track[/url] but some love it apparently.
Led Zep are blues rock, Page was too out of it to play stuff as fast as Rock Around the Clock. Junior was raving about some super fast metal guy who I dismissed as "they played faster than that 50 years back". Junior could play the metal line (some kind of sweep picking) but soon gave up on the rockability riff in Rock around the Clock.
Things move on, people invent new stuff, reinvent stuff. I really like Telephone with the dueling guitars of Bertignac and Aubert which feels like recycled Chuck Berry to play.
I don't really see much personality coming through in Knopfler, though he's great technician.
Musicians are the last people you should ever talk to about music.
It's about how it makes you feel.
Nothing else matters.
It's fun talking about guitar geekery, but that's all it is.
Anything that get's in the way is irrelevant - other people's opinions especially.
I hear plenty of personality with Knopfler, you only have to hear the first two or three notes to know its him, and to be perfectly honest I'd much rather have that in a guitarist that blinding technical brilliance, which can all to easily turn into fret-****ery. Dave Gilmore is another who has that instantly identifiable thing going on.
For sheer technical brilliance with a guitar coupled with personality and humour, then Adrian Legg really takes some beating.
TBH, I've rather grown out of being impressed by fancy fingerwork on a guitar, I'll take technical competence allied with good songwriting skills to create a terrific piece of music, Laura Marling is someone who has those abilities; she's a very good guitarist, which underpins her superb songwriting skills perfectly.
I really don't ask more than that from an artist.
Blimey there isn't half some bullshite spoured on guitar threads on stw. All its missing now is emsz or whomever to come and say that all electric guitarists are shit and that acoustic is the only way to go!
Whomever said that guitar isn't a competitive sport is on the money for me......I really hate it when people are derogatory towards incredibly talented musicians.... Saying that Page is nothing special, I'd nonsense. I'm nothing special.....and I play for a living.....people like Page are special, hence the legacy that they leave.
[url= https://www.utdallas.edu/ah/guitar/competition.html ]Guitar competition[/url] first browser result, there are pages of them.
I understand how you feel but there's certainly rivalry. Which is a good thing, it pushes the standards of playing and composition higher. And a bad thing because some players put technical prowess over musicality.
For me you can split guitarists into two groups. You get the guys who are great technicians who can play any piece without mistakes note perfect. Then there are the ones who are great songwriters who can write a great riff. Very rarely do you get one that can do both. I think Gilmour, Knopfler, Page and Blackmore are definitely in the group that can do both. Ritchie Blackmore for me was another guitarist who could wipe the floor with Page who never got the recognition he deserved.
And [url=
Rhoads[/url] could wipe the floor with Blackmore (perfect pitch harmionics live) 8)
Well if we really are going to play "who's best"... . 😉
Like Knopfler a lot, definitely one of my favourite guitarists (and I do play if that qualification is required to comment!).
A lot of Dire Straits stuff was pretty bland for sure, but the best of it was top-class. I saw Knopfler live on his first solo tour post-DS and he was superb - scotroutes description is miles away from my memory of it. Favourite moment being the massively-extended version of Sultans of Swing. Having played it at normal speed, slowed it down, cranked it back up to near double-speed, when he stoppped there was almost a stunned-silence before the audience responded. A wee Glasgow punter piped up in that moment of quiet and said "Aye, ye're getting the hang 'o that now, pal!". 😆
Personality wise, he just comes across as a quiet, understated dude, but his playing actually has a pretty unique style (hence the unique sound). He rarely uses a pick and plays most stuff with a blend of pick-style and fingerstyle, which allows him to pluck a lot of the notes, pulling the string out and letting it snap back down (e.g. Money for Nothing riff). Makes his stuff easy-ish to play along too, but hard to really match the tone and style.
stevomcdLike Knopfler a lot, definitely one of my favourite guitarists (and I do play if that qualification is required to comment!).
It appears it is a required criteria according to Junkyard, who seems to consider himself at least a contemporary, of Knopfler, if not his superior.
Junkyard
FWIW i always enjoy threads where those who dont play the guitar tell us what its like to play the guitarYou may as well argue that Danny Mac can do streetstyle BMX as its just a bike - of course he can but he would not be in the same league as the guys who just do that even though its just a different "style".
I've only been playing for twenty years or so. Long enough to know I'm shit, and long enough to appreciate someone with Mark Knopfler's skills, even if I find him boring.
The most amazing guitar playing, most amazing performace I've ever seen and I reckon ever will was Bert Jansch in a library not far from my home town in Ireland. Even though he played "relatively sedate" folk and blues every note he played was wrought with passion, agony, joy, pain....it was just sublime and I was two feet away from him. It was just mesmerising. I'm not an emotional, type, not in the teary crying way, but I was sober and having to hold myself together, same for my friend.
At the end of the gig I queued up to speak to Bert and everyone in the queue seemed to be guitar geek muso bores, asking him about picking styles and tuning and he looked bored to tears. We were last, and when I spoke to him I just told him "you ****ing rocked, that was amazing" to which he laughed and slapped me on the shoulder. Bert asked me if I like the cset he played and I said, yes but Poison was my favourite song of his, why didn't he play it. We had a brief conversation about heroin addiction, and then he promised to play it if I came to his show the following night in Belfast.
I couldn't make it, but my friend did, and he told me how Bert dedicated his rendition of Poison that night to me by telling a story about meeting two crazy guys in a gig in a library 😉
Vanilla
For me, a massive influence. I even had to get a red strat (copy) to try to copy some of the stuff on alchemy.
He's one of those players that has a sound. You know it's him. There was a track doing the rounds that was just knopflers guitar from the sultans album track. It wasn't what he played, it was the other bits that made the track.
he just plays in a very understated way, it's a story and that's quite unusual.
You either like it or you don't. It's not law...!!!
Yes Randy was a great technician loved some of his work with Osbourne but not really a composer or creator of songs just really added the guitar bit to make it interesting. Blackmore was for me the creative driving force behind most of their really good stuff. Deep Purple in Rock etc. This isn't really about who we think is the best player more who is a consomethinge all rounder.
That and the guy who played rhythm on a Tele behind who kept things moving along.
They had a tele on stage? Blimey, that must have been distracting, wot with all those adverts and everyting. Blimey, this halowwwen ale is strong.
It appears it is a required criteria according to Junkyard, who seems to consider himself at least a contemporary, of Knopfler, if not his superior.
Yes that was clearly what I said- foolish and childish point there.
Do you think a guitarist knows more about playing the guitar than a non guitarist? I have taken the controversial view that they do but hey you beat the straw man to death rather than what I said 🙄
I disagree that they can play each others styles and i am amazed a guitarist has said that. Do you think Bert could have gone on stage and done Knopflers set and vice versa. I dont
top 100 guitar players from rock n roll, rock and metal you'd have to say they're all so technically competent they could mimic each others style if they really wanted to.
Really am surprised you think that if you play.
Got pissed up with the band one night on the Brothers in Arms tour, lovely bunch apart from the fact that they didn't buy a round. Got a free tee-shirt and CD out of it, oh and a good hangover.
JunkyardI disagree that they can play each others styles and i am amazed a guitarist has said that. Do you think Bert could have gone on stage and done Knopflers set and vice versa. I dont
Easily. I mean, give him time to learn the songs but jesus....easily.
Here's one of my favourite guitarists (really) mimicking Mark Knopfler (not) - [url=
Paisley plays Walk of Life[/url]
[url=
Brad normally plays[/url]
I try to maintain a repertoire of a dozen songs I can play to amuse friends (preferably after they've had a few drinks but I haven't). I've posted this before but so you can judge how (un)qualified I am to comment here's [url= https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVC7ACQCqn4 ]me abusing a classic[/url] (I'll report the first person to point out I leave the A string buzzing when I do the picky bits to the moderators for abusive posting)
[quote=MartynS ]There was a track doing the rounds that was just knopflers guitar from the sultans album track. It wasn't what he played, it was the other bits that made the track.This one?
Just listen to Knopflers album Privateering & then tell me the mans not got soul. For me, exquisite playing from the less is more style of guitar picking.
I heard an interview with MK a few months ago where he talked about not really concentrating on his guitar playing [i]that[/i] much, it was the songwriting he was most bothered about.
When you listen to something as well crafted as Tunnel of Love, Telegraph Road or Sultans I guess that makes sense!
Easily. I mean, give him time to learn the songs but jesus....easily.
Then in that case there are no good guitarists there are only good composers as they can all copy each other exactly to be indistinguishable. Therefore the only thing that counts is what they can write/compose and not how they can perform it - as anyone can do that
I disagree.
I dont disagree that we can all learn somebody else songs but your argument was anyone in the top 100 can play anyone elses style. If that is the case why is number 1 better than number 100 when they can both play the exact same ?
Always confused me that Sultans of Swing is not a swing track. And slightly annoyed me too. I mean I like the song but the lyrics jarr.
I play but everyone who ever picked up a guitar is better than me. It's pointless arguing who us better, it's taste. To me MK songs were exceptional and the tone and feel of the guitar amazing. Every note he plays is melodic and contributes to the story. I think it was ZZTop who said its the notes you don't play.....
Yep, its all down to taste. I'd rather listen to Neil Young strangle a few notes than someone like Steve Vai play a million in the same length of time.
Mark Knopfler is very good however you look at it though.
Always confused me that Sultans of Swing is not a swing track. And slightly annoyed me too. I mean I like the song but the lyrics jarr.
Think you need to give them a closer listen! 😆
Please explain!
It's about another band in a pub in London "A band is blowing Dixie double four time". " 'We are the Sultans of Swing' " is in inverted commas in the lyrics so Knopfler is not singing about himself. Swing (I dance swing, and rock and roll) is danced to a 4/4 beat.
Edit to add the lyrics:
You get a shiver in the dark
It's raining in the park but meantime
South of the river you stop and you hold everything
A band is blowing Dixie double four time
You feel alright when you hear that music ring
You step inside but you don't see too many faces
Coming in out of the rain to hear the jazz go down
Too much competition too many other places
But not too many horns can make that sound
Way on down south way on down south London town
You check out Guitar George he knows all the chords
Mind he's strictly rhythm he doesn't want to make it cry or sing
And an old guitar is all he can afford
When he gets up under the lights to play his thing
And Harry doesn't mind if he doesn't make the scene
He's got a daytime job he's doing alright
He can play honky tonk just like anything
Saving it up for Friday night
With the Sultans with the Sultans of Swing
And a crowd of young boys they're fooling around in the corner
Drunk and dressed in their best brown baggies and their platform soles
The don't give a damn about any trumpet playing band
It ain't what they call rock and roll
And the Sultans played Creole
And then the man he steps right up to the microphone
And says at last just as the time bell rings
'Thank you goodnight now it's time to go home'
And he makes it fast with one more thing
'We are the Sultans of Swing'
DS music was forced into the shape that fitted into the kind of venues that the band found themsekves playing. It wasn't for the better, IMO. His guitar playing is best close up and in yer ear.
I know it's not about the band themselves, but still seems dissonant to sing about swing in a different style. That's just me though I guess.
Blimey, reminds me of readers letters in Melody Maker in the 1960's!
I know nothing about music beyond enjoying other people making it, however shouldn't Richard Thompson be on a list of virtuoso guitarists?
I know it's not about the band themselves, but still seems dissonant to sing about swing in a different style. That's just me though I guess.
It's like most Dire Straits songs, it tells a story. In this case, about a part-time jazz band trying to keep going while rock and roll takes over. Never found that weird.
Knopfler does have some jazz influence in his playing, pretty sure he has some strong sympathies with the Sultans...
Rock and roll took over in the fifties but (Oxford) baggy brown trousers and platform soles were around in the seventies when Knopfler wrote the song.
Rock and roll was still popular in the seventies with many bands writing their own rock and roll style songs or covering others. Led Zep did "bin a long time since a rock 'n' roll", Slade "Keep on Rockin", Gary... best stop there.
Cant play a note myself but caught this on Sky the other night and enjoyed it. Comes across as a very down to earth guy.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=27OT_FSWrIE
Comparing something as subjective as music always seemed a bit pointless to me.
If a particular guitarist (or any musical instrument) has a style you like, then great, but trying to compare that misses the point IMO
Even the likes of Clapton was shocked by his abilities
Check out Eric in the audience of Albert Lee playing Country Boy:
[url=
s'n'Dave Xmas Special[/url]
AFAIK he used to play in Eric's band though so he knew full well how good he was, albeit different.
Albert Lee is using hybrid picking there, a pick and the fingers. James Burton popularised that playing "chicken pickin'"with early rock and rollers. Billy Gibbons does it too though both Knopfler and Gibbons often do without the pick and use the thumb.
[url=
Burton[/url]
It's like most Dire Straits songs, it tells a story. In this case, about a part-time jazz band trying to keep going while rock and roll takes over.
This is the kind of discussion I enjoy much more than technical comparison 🙂
Does no-one think that Mark Knopfler was influenced by Richard Thompson? Why doesn't RT get a mention with some of the other 'greats?'
Martin Simpson also springs to mind.
I reckon Richard Thompson is pretty well recognised as a great guitarist, but pretty much just amongst the folk (folk/rock) fraternity and people who are into music a bit more deeply than the general public.
As Knopfler and Thompson are the same age they were probably influenced by those that they listened to in their youth rather than each other. I tried to think of a Thomson riff and couldn't. Thompson has an interesting celtic sound and does what he does very well but many others do the celtic stuff that has stuck in my head while Thompson's hasn't. Andy Irvine for example.
I think that's been one of Richard Thompson's problems - he seems to be thought of as a folkie by most people, yet he's really a rock musician who does some folk stuff. Fairport Convention started as a rock band. But regarding songs with 'story' lyrics, surely he's unmatched?
I think that's been one of Richard Thompson's problems - he seems to be thought of as a folkie by most people, yet he's really a rock musician who does some folk stuff.
Last time I was at an RT gig he asked the Audience for requests with the words "Choose a genre'.
These are interesting. Don't know where 1/3 is though.
<
Edukator, I can't believe you're struggling for a RT riff.
I'm sure there are hitherto unknown Amazonian tribes who all get pissed and sing maudlin versions of 'Meet on the Ledge'.
And I know that all beard wearers are legally required to know all the words of 'Matty Groves' by heart.
1952 Vincent BLack Lightening is a pretty memorable RT riff:
Sorry.
*starts shaving*
Douglas Adams had something to say about MK's playing.
http://h2g2.com/edited_entry/A311031/conversation/view/F38761/T56266/page/1/