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Correct but that wasn’t reasonable force.
To someone who is trained, sure. Could it not simply be an awkward attempt at a restraint by someone who’s last physical intervention was fighting over spotted dick at prep school?
I don,t see any attempt to cause needless pain or suffering? The grab by the back of the neck was his idea of what a restraint is, in his own privileged world.
I doubt it will get past the CPS.
Interesting that the Guardian covers this story & doesn’t even mention the assault. Great publicity for Greenpeace, but the whole episode sums up the internet age.
Maintains that was his honest belief
What, that he was under imminent threat from a woman walking in a building in a ball gown?
He's suggested he reacted "instinctively" I don't think I've ever felt the need to attack a woman instinctively...
Pondo, prove it.
It’s that simple. He states he felt she was a threat, maintains that line throughout questioning and potential court.
Maintains that was his honest belief and the force he used was proportional, he did not strike her, cause injury.
Doubt very much legally will happen. Professionally, well that remains to be seen.
Each to their own of course, but for me the longer video makes it pretty clear. The protesters had been there for some time, they were singing and shouting, they were not a threat. The woman was walking behind him - not running, not focused on anyone in particular, not trying to be stealthy, she was walking behind him (fairly slowly). What was the threat? His reaction was clearly of anger, it was not a response to threat.
Ray, I think you're on point there. If I did that, I'd be in a spot of bother. Anyone else, seems about right, even when driven with anger. It's not nice to see anyone getting manhandled that way, let alone a young woman, complete failure of whomever was in charge of security, if any.
I don,t see any attempt to cause needless pain or suffering?
Yet a salted caramel milkshake can?
Others stood in front of protestors then walked them out. That's reasonable.
That's the thing, we can debate his intent until the cows come home. My feeling is he was driven by anger, but that's just what my experience tells me. What's provable is very different.
If he maintains a position then that has to be investigated and proven otherwise. First start is his apology, which would indicate remorse, which would further undermine any 'threat' argument.
As for the she wasn't a threat, some people are quite good at concealing their actions by acting completely appropriately, the fact that she shouldn't be there and is the only one moving around to the top of the table would be enough to confront her.
And maybe if he got in front of her like others did she'd have backed off. But he didn't, he grabbed her. Be interesting to see the laws response to this.
GBH or ABH, just an interpretation of the gravity of the harm caused.
Either could be brought against him in this situation, if the GBH gets dropped by the CBS then ABH is the fall back option.
Obvz.
It must be a terrible feeling to think that the Public are out to attack you and your motives at any point during the day... Just goes to prove that what this current bunch of Tories have been peddling “project fear” is indeed paying off... back on them.
Happy for that little twist of fate 👍
Unless this goes to court nobody can conclusiveness state if the ejecting protesters was reasonable force or not, it's pretty subjective.
Aggravated trespass is less subjective, looks cut and dried to me:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/33/section/68
Does the fact she was in an evening dress make any difference? Why?
I imagine it would be quite hard to hide a Kalashnikoff, or a suicide belt, underneath an evening dress.
Does the fact she’s a woman make any difference?
Depends on how you were brought up, I suppose.
GBH? Really? So he caused serious injuries from that grab? Is he Superman? I know it's a only a mobile video, but I didn't see any broken limbs or cuts, or anything that is going to affect the ongoing health of the young lady. ABH at most if there is bruising or muscle discomfort. Most likely common assault.
Hardly a private function either. It's an evening for invited................to be politicised at while on camera so the chancellor can tell the country what a jolly good job he's doing.
Oh and we're not leading the world in becoming carbon neutral we're behind a couple of countries with our dates.
GBH or ABH, just an interpretation of the gravity of the harm caused.
Did I miss the bit where he headbutts her, punches her in the stomach a few times and knees her in the face?
Depends on how you were brought up, I suppose.
Maybe he was brought up to think women women are equal to men?
You just don’t go round grabbing people by the throat and slamming them against pillars.
Hyperbole much?
You don’t know to what extent the injuries are, no one does. So you start with the highest grade course of action then drop to the next and so on.
Obvz.
I’d be happy to start with GBH, then take that to the CPS and drop if it gets rejected.
Afterall, he’s tried to force himself on another person and threat or fear of threat is enough to bring charges.
Obvz.
Theres a whole bucket of Law and president out there to examine if you have a few years of study in you.
Happy to continue pointing out the Obvz if that’s too much for you to consider.
Maybe he was brought up to think women women are equal to men?
Definitely not - if she'd been a really angry man, she'd have just been asked to leave.
Interesting that his excuse was "acting instinctively" and , for him, acting instinctively = resort to physical force.
Lets hope a foreign office minister doesn't act instinctively when he makes all his decisions.
Hyperbole much?
No.
Have a look at the video.
He grabs her by the throat.
He slams her against the pillar.
Maybe he was brought up to think women women are equal to men?
You can believe in equality AND respect women at the same time.
Or you'd go to the CPS with a charge that reflects the injuries and facts. -10 internet hardman points for you.
She proves if you're gonna do this shit you need a change of shoes in case it all goes off.
@scuttler Good set of flats to turn and get on the hoof. And a can of pepper spray for angry MP's.
If I'm honest what I really would have liked is if she was a BJJ practitioner and flipped him like a pancake, got him in a rear naked choke and made him tap out like a bitch...
Have a look at the video.
I have.
He grabs her by the throat.
He doesn't.
He slams her against the pillar.
He pushes her against it.
Ok.
Perhaps you should contact the moderators and ask them to change the thread title?
And put in a complaint regarding the Guardian, who state the same.
There is enough bad shit happening all over the world without having to make a mountain out of every molehill as well. No need to exaggerate things.
There is enough bad shit happening all over the world without having to make a mountain out of every molehill as well. No need to exaggerate things.
So we ingore MPs committing crimes because soemthing happened elsewhere?
His hand is on her right shoulder not around her throat. You can see that when they turn around. He then changes and puts it on the back of her neck.
So we ingore MPs committing crimes because soemthing happened elsewhere?
How about the next time you get caught speeding you get accused of a hit and run.
So we ingore MPs committing crimes because soemthing happened elsewhere?
No, but we don't make up crimes where non were committed just because we don't like somebody. Lets not stoop as low as the populists.
No, but we don’t make up crimes where non were committed just because we don’t like somebody. Lets not stoop as low as the populists.
Who's made up a crime? We're discussing the rights and wrongs of grabbing someone and pushing against a pillar during a peaceful protest.
Yep thanks for putting and end to this throat grabbing crap.
How about the next time you get caught speeding you get accused of a hit and run.
Well that's not going to happen is it now.
People who think it's ok - would [i]you[/i] do that to a woman?
I did once, when I was too young to know better. But certainly wouldn't now.
If I’m honest what I really would have liked is if she was a BJJ practitioner an
I so thought that was going somewhere else...
We’re discussing the rights and wrongs of grabbing someone and pushing against a pillar during a peaceful protest.
That's more like it.
No, but we don’t make up crimes where non were committed just because we don’t like somebody.
You seem sure that a crime wasn't committed. Why?
People who think it’s ok – would you do that to a woman?
I'm astonished that people here are condoning his behaviour.
Quote needs more prominence!
[b]“Mark Field MP
The UK remains committed to helping women all over the world to feel safe and protected in the work they do, so they can speak freely and be part of the change we all want. “[/b]
Wow
Reckless ABH was committed imv.
I am not condoning his behaviour, but I don't think it has crossed the line to be classified as any form of assault, I don't think it is anywhere near.
People who think it’s ok – would you do that to a woman?
Well if the women was say Cris Cyborg, I would lie of the floor and bleed.
I am not condoning his behaviour, but I don’t think it has crossed the line to be classified as any form of assault, I don’t think it is anywhere near.
Is your opinion based on your legal expertise?
I am not condoning his behaviour, but I don’t think it has crossed the line to be classified as any form of assault, I don’t think it is anywhere near.
Apart physically pushing and grabbing her of course.
Are only the people with opposite views to your own required to justify them with extensive legal experience?
This is what Robert Peston made of it, including some impressions from inside the room when it happened:
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1141836184492158977
I'm happy to concede that he may not have grabbed her by the throat, he may have grabbed her shoulder.
However, grabbing her by the neck, which he clearly does, is dangerous.
Ask a police officer or any other professional trained in violence reduction techniques.
Were they serving Stella?
It's worth reading the whole thread on Peston's twitter if you can be bothered. It comes across as a balanced take with a bit of perspective on how 'threatening' the protestors actually appeared.
Whether it actually meets the threshold for prosecution or not, it looks like bad judgement and there's something viscerally unpleasant about grabbing people's necks that makes it look unpleasant particularly if you believe Peston's friend's account that the protestors were clearly not threatening.
Well if the women was say Cris Cyborg, I would lie of the floor and bleed.
I take it from that garbled response (who??) that you would try then.
I’m astonished that people here are condoning his behaviour.
Yep, so am I. In no way was that the right thing to do (whether it turns out to be a crime or not)
Apart physically pushing and grabbing her of course.
We are going to cripple the justice system if that is the line for prosecution.
I am not condoning his behaviour, but I don’t think it has crossed the line to be classified as any form of assault, I don’t think it is anywhere near.
Would you be OK with someone grabbing & pushing you if you walked down the street?
His behaviour is not OK - she was not a threat. As has been stated this was a fairly posh do, there was security there, let them do their job.
Are only the people with opposite views to your own required to justify them with extensive legal experience?
I don't believe I stated my view on whether or not his actions meet the legal definition of assault. You seem pretty sure though, so I was interested to learn whether or not this was based on knowledge. It seems not.
We are going to cripple the justice system if that is the line for prosecution.
No, not at all as assault can be just touching someone or even throwing a milkshake.
Anger management course required.
Theres a whole bucket of Law and president out there to examine if you have a few years of study in you.
Happy to continue pointing out the Obvz if that’s too much for you to consider.
There’s
precedent
obvs ; )
We are going to cripple the justice system if that is the line for prosecution.
What is your evidence for your claim?
Having just got off the phone to Virgin Media complaints department I didn't think it was possible to be any more incensed. Then I saw this. I am not sure what actually gave me the burst blood vessels, was it the manhandling of a woman? Was it grey haired woman looking away as if nothing was happening? Was it the slow hand clap by a group of people responsible for our country, its morals and its general wellbeing? Or was it the fact that this was a bankers ball, those that ****ed our country a few years ago slapping themselves on the back?
I need to go and have a lie down and when I recover I expect to see the same punishment dished out to this **** as was dished out to the milkshake throwing man.
Would you be OK with someone grabbing & pushing you if you walked down the street?
I wouldn't consider it necessary to get the law involved if such an incident took place. If I walked into a private function protesting, I would expect to be grabbed, pushed and removed.
If I walked into a private function protesting, I would expect to be grabbed, pushed and removed.
By the neck?
Its assault. Its as simple as.
Not really surprised at those defending the MP, but you really should go take a look at yourselves in a mirror. Just don't break it in the process as its seven years bad luck according to superstition.
Which may not be necessarily a bad thing for some of you.
We are going to cripple the justice system if that is the line for prosecution.
If you work somewhere like a secure mental health facility and grabbed a violent service user by the neck you would be prosecuted and barred from working in such a place ever again.
The law is there to protect everyone, equally.
Have you seen the video? he doesn't grab her by the neck (throat implied by emotive language) he has his hand on the back of her neck as he leads her to the door.
I think the tribal element of the coverage of this has surprised me, a man (regardless of his politics) has by most expert's definition assaulted a woman (regardless of her politics) surely our collective sympathy should lay with the weaker person/victim of crime?
If you think he's right to do it because he's a Conservative MP and she a climate protestor, you should be having a word with yourself.
He's been suspended.
If the government think it's serious to suspend a Tory then something's up.
Have you seen the video? he doesn’t grab her by the neck
Yes. He appears to grab her by the neck at the start.
Have you seen the video? he doesn’t grab her by the neck (throat implied by emotive language) he has his hand on the back of her neck as he leads her to the door.
Perhaps he was just giving her a massage? Or an ickle tickle to cheer her up?
Perhaps he was just giving her a massage? Or an ickle tickle to cheer her up?
Quite possible judging by the smirk on her face.
And I think it seems a wholly appropriate amount of force to remove a tory from your property when they next come canvassing.
Suspended and rightly so IMO, but not by the neck... Yet. 😉
I admire these protestors and hope that the man is prosecuted, presumably this is a higher level of offence than milkshakes on clothing. He should also be removed from parliament and lose his pension benefits.
You can believe in equality AND respect women at the same time.
So...........All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others. (There needs to be a George Orwell equivalent of Goodwins law on the left of the political spectrum).
How about "You can believe in equality AND not hit people at the same time". Otherwise what you're saying is fundamentally not equality is it?
Yeah, he should have wiped that off too. How dare she.
People react to being physically assaulted in many different and seemingly strange ways.
Especially when being assaulted by someone bigger and stronger than yourself.
If you think he’s right to do it because he’s a Conservative MP and she a climate protestor, you should be having a word with yourself.
I get the impression that most people on here despite thinking that his force was not particularly excessive, loathe the man and are politically much more in tune with the protester.
The idea that a well trained police officer would have been more gentle appears comical to me.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NmxfxSLTTIs
Internet frothing, gotta love it.
Suspension is the right course of action, pending an inquest is the most sensible action. At that inquest not only the facts will be heard but also the MP’s motivation and moral questioning. These inquests aren’t held in the open, so well never know what questions will be raised. But they are cross party inquests so no bias intended by the interviewer(s)
The point made ^^ about the disconnect between those that seem to think they have “special rights” over others is a valid point.
And to point out the Obvz, those that think they have “special rights” clearly don’t when the rule of Law is applied.
One less Tory IMO is a good thing.
So………..All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
If you are physically stronger than someone else, you have a responsibility to ensure that you do not use that advantage against them unnecessarily.
And equality of opportunity does not translate to absolute equality in all things.
Which is why we have disabled spaces next to the entrance in supermarkets and the non disabled have to walk a bit further.
“Mark Field MP
The UK remains committed to helping women all over the world to feel safe and protected in the work they do, so they can speak freely and be part of the change we all want. “
If ever there was an example of judging people by their actions and not their word then this is it!
that's
JohnMark beingJohnMark
The idea that a well trained police officer would have been more gentle appears comical to me.
A well trained police officer would (we hope) be acting within the law. That MP wasn't.