[Closed] Many teachers 'working 60-hour week'

Performance related pay, which can only be done by value judgements.

So what, the vast majority of professionals are on performance related pay but that doesn't mean you can't raise concerns to management. It's pathetic to say the Heads just don't care, I'm sure that's maybe true in a small number of cases, but I doubt it for the vast majority. It makes it sound like teachers are happier to keep moaning than actually work with management to come up with a solution. Lets face it if as a teacher can show a way of improving both the said teachers performance and also the schools / heads, then it would be an idiot of a head that said no.

dragon - Member
Scotroutes makes a serious point, why are so many people afraid to stand up for themselves in a positive way? I don't mean just moaning, but explaining the situation and working to resolve it.

FWIW, I work roughly 8-00 to 4-30 or 5-00 each day with no lunch break (although I am right now having a 10 minute breather before starting prep for tomorrow) and usually do 2 or 3 hours on a Sunday morning, so I'm a bit under the article's 60 hours. Having been teaching almost 20 years though, I have a reasonable store of tweakable resources to call on and my subject (Art) has not been meddled with as much as some others. If you work smart there's no real reason (barring individual schools having stupid policies) to do more than 50 hours and still deliver decent lessons and results.

It's pathetic to say the Heads just don't care, I'm sure that's maybe true in a small number of cases, but I doubt it for the vast majority

Worked in many schools?

Lets face it if as a teacher can show a way of improving both the said teachers performance and also the schools

Any idiot can do that but how it would help work load?

Current preptime in most schools is between 2 and 3 periods off per week.

Could anybody manage to do prepare 30 interactive, engaging activities to keep 30 office workers amused for 30 hours per week with only 120 minutes of preparation time, bearing in mind that all learners need to be catered for in that class.

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scotroutes - Member
If it's not possible then do as many as you can and tell your head there wasn't enough time to do them all. Is there some special process with teachers that has the word 'no' expunged from their vocabulary?

It doesn't really work like that. If you haven't prepped a lesson you're the one with 20-30 kids in front of you trying to invent a lesson on the hoof.

I'm a bit under the article's 60 hours

The article says that 'only' 1 in 5 are doing 60 and that most full-time teachers work an average of 48.2 hours per week

8am to 6pm is 10 hours, assuming no breaks and working constantly; that's 50 hours per week. Assuming breaks in the day balance evening and weekend working, that seems about right for colleagues in 'proper' schools.

My better half is a primary school teacher in Wales, regularly does a 60+ hour week to keep on top of all the statistics that the government require. They have their Estyn, Welsh OFSTED, start today, so the last 4 weeks has been in school 7 days a week, 0800-1800 weekdays, 0900-1500 weekends to prepare, on top of that she will do 4-6 hours in the evening every evening.
Underpaid, under resourced and under appreciated in my opinion, and don't get me started on the whole 12 weeks off a year OFR. I would not do her job for love nor money.

Sorry, but every profession thinks they are a "special case". Bullying, nepotism, blacklisting and the rest happen in various forms throughout all sectors of employment.

Sorry, but every profession thinks they are a "special case".

What do you do for a living Scotroutes?

I have little comment on this and no axe to grind for or against teachers (fine job, I couldn't do it) other than to say can we please not include travel time in working hours

Scotroutes +1

Add to your list under resourced, pretty much everyone in every sector moans about that.

A_A so you think the majority of heads don't care and are just interested in money. Really? I just don't buy it. It's like saying all MD's are only interested in the profit, sure that the case for some, but it is ridiculous to say it applies to all.

can we please not include travel time in working hours

Quite agree.

As I stated earlier, some of the hours claimed are totally unrealistic.

No lunch break? So when do you eat? Or do you have magic astronauts tablets?

Never mind Mike Ashley or Amazon, it seems that our schools are hot beds of worker exploitation.

Working Time Directive anyone?

gobuchul - Member

No lunch break? So when do you eat? Or do you have magic astronauts tablets?

You've never worked through lunch?

No lunch break? So when do you eat?

Lol, perfectly possible to eat whilst working!

Working Time Directive anyone?

Haha! Double lolz!

No lunch break? So when do you eat?

In between the fights in the canteen you've had to break up whilst on duty.

Lol, perfectly possible to eat whilst working!

Food in a classroom while teaching?

Food in a classroom while teaching?

Food in a classroom while marking, while the kids are on lunch.

You've never worked through lunch?

mate - I've worked 36 - 48 hr shifts in the past. I still sit down and eat at some point.

I'm not sure what these people are counting as "work"?

Food in a classroom while marking, while the kids are on lunch.

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A_A so you think the majority of heads don't care and are just interested in money. Really? I just don't buy it

No they are interested in gaming ofsted. And you dont have to buy it I couldnt care less. I note you havent answered my question.

No lunch break? So when do you eat?

No surprise teachers are leaving the profession and the volume of individuals entering the profession is low (compared to the need of the country) judging by some of the sentiments in this thread.. teachers are educating our young people and without them our society is ****ed.. so they should be given way more respect than they currently get...

Gobuchul is trolling.

Or a super-important guy who keeps the country running through sheer hard work.

Worked in many schools?

Out of interest, how many have you worked in AA and how many different types?

So lets think about expections here - a monopoly employer, heavy and constant government interference, a service provided free at the point of delivery, the absurd notion of comprehensive/mixed abilty approaches etc - and people wonder why the job is undervalued, underpaid and stressful? It's not rocket science is it. Most teachers are taken for granted. But as others have said, this is not unique to teaching.

I have mixed feelings about this.

Without a doubt teachers, like all public sector works (especially nurses and doctors), are convinced the world owes them a living.

On the other hand, having spent years working (yes, working and not travelling or eating) 60-100 hours a week, I know exactly how dire that is for your life. And all I did was sit behind a desk and make phone calls, attend meetings or draft and redraft documents.

I'm ignoring the anecdotal evidence and sample sizes of one in this thread (not statistically relevant) and look at the facts: poor money, permanently moving goalposts and daily pressure. And you get the blame when it doesn't go right.

No thanks.

Out of interest, how many have you worked in AA and how many different types?

comprehensive/mixed abilty approaches

Comps dont mean mixed ability classes in the vast majority of classes.

I'm sure the points raised in this thread are not unique to teaching but this thread is about teachers and itvseems funny to me that people ask about teaching and then complain about moaning when the teachers told them about it.

Without a doubt teachers, like all public sector works (especially nurses and doctors), are convinced the world owes them a living.

I am a public sector worker, I don't think for one second that the world owes me shit.
Sorry if that challenges your preconceptions.

Is there some special process with teachers that has the word 'no' expunged from their vocabulary?

Problem is that, like doctors and nurses, the job NEEDS doing.

4. One of the original academies, 2LEA and 1 of the more recent academies.

How did the experience differ?

Good job about avoiding mixed-ability teaching....

Well the first academy was the worst performing school in England at the time and I was training to be a teacher and then doing my nqt year. It had great facilities and money wasnt really a barrier. Christ it was tough though. The other 3 schools were all the same really. On a day to day basis for teachers you wouldnt know the difference.

+1 Molgrips.

The problem is that doctors, nurses etc. are taken advantage of, as most of us cannot say no, as if we do not do the job properly, it is not us that suffer, but patients or students.

I think that teachers and nurses would like to feel as though they are respected and feel valued, but at the moment due to government changes and government rhetoric along with the tabloids, they feel worthless.

I do not mind working the long hours, as I do the job because I enjoy it, what I detest is doing the pointless paperwork that is all about 'evidence' and arse covering.

well i can only say as i see and we overlook the local primary school where dd2 is studying...

first ones trn up just after 8 ( gates are locked until then) school closes for kids at 3.15 and i v never seen anyone there post 4.30. school holidays no one shows except for the last day of the holidays when about half the teachers carpark is full.

carpark this am had a range rover 3 beemers and merc. rest were mins ect.. not a bad do id say.. each class of 30 has one teacher and 2 ta in a school with 8 classes there is one head three deputies and 3 admin staff..

and i v never seen anyone there post 4.30.

Even on parents eve?
I think you are talking shite tbh. My experience is that primary teachers seem to do longer hours. I regularly see my sons teacher when I pick him up from after school club.

ourmaninthenorth - Member

Without a doubt teachers, like all public sector works (especially nurses and doctors), are convinced the world owes them a living.

They do absolutely essential and lifechanging work, they [i]are[/i] owed a living.

At my school the heads pa drives a porsche pan amera or whatever its called. Her husband works in the "city" apparently. So I'm not sure what relevance the cars have.

Some crypto-Tory scum showing their true colours on this thread.

first ones trn up just after 8 ( gates are locked until then) school closes for kids at 3.15 and i v never seen anyone there post 4.30. school holidays no one shows except for the last day of the holidays when about half the teachers carpark is full.

Entirely possible if the school's been PPI'd. School is charged if teachers are there outside core hours.

Without a doubt teachers, like all public sector works (especially nurses and doctors), are convinced the world owes them a living.

We really don't.

Without doubt private sector workers are jealous, lazy and full of shit.

mate - I've worked 36 - 48 hr shifts in the past. I still sit down and eat at some point.

None stop? Bollocks!

Primary school teacher here. PPA morning tomorrow so I have less work to do tonight. In my first year of teaching I calculated that I worked 600 hours more than I did in my previous job (37.5 hours a week, 23 days holiday a year), it's probably not that much any more . Currently earning about £10k less than my old job too. I didn't move jobs for the money, I did it because I wanted to do something more worthwhile and interesting. It certainly is more interesting.

I would say that 60 hours a week isn't too far off. I'm in work by 8am every morning and leave at 6pm most nights, sometimes later but rarely earlier. I normally do a couple of hours work every night and then a few at the weekend. I usually have 15 mins for lunch each day.

I know schools like totalshell mentions. If he's keeping that much of an eye on them he'all probably notice that most teachers are taking a stack of work home with them every night. I was getting kicked out at 5pm every night at one school I worked at. It annoyed me because I like to get as much done at school as I can and bring as little home as possible. Most of the other teachers there left early as they had young children to go and collect and worked most of the night once their little ones had gone to bed.

I do not mind working the long hours, as I do the job because I enjoy it, [b]what I detest is doing the pointless paperwork that is all about 'evidence' and arse covering.[/b]

Currently earning about £10k less than my old job too. I didn't move jobs for the money, I did it because I wanted to do something more worthwhile and interesting.

This kind of parasitic attitude is typical of these workshy layabouts, eh Ourmaninthenorth?

If it's got so bad then why don't you all get together and just stop doing the shite pointless stuff.

They can't sack everyone.

Without getting into any philosophical/political debate on the mindset of public employees versus private employees, my late Mum who was a committed primary school teacher probably did work a 60 hour week, with being in school by twenty to nine to do whatever it was she did, and leaving at about half past four or five in the afternoon, and doing some marking each evening, and then some work during part of the weekend, it would have been around 60 hours a week.

Whatever some people think of the 'mindset of public sector employees' she taught at a private school as it happens, and I think this point of view may as slanted as anything which humans think - rather than being some kind of objective truth, the issue of people needing adequate pay for working these kinds of hours still remains. If people keep leaving the profession the future prospects of the country may suffer.

km79: I think people stick in the job even when it's crap due to their commitment to being a teacher, that the better ones couldn't do anything else with their lives, so they carry on anyway. The partner of a friend couldn't do anything else, and my Mum was the same. You might say (the better) teachers need to teach - from it being their calling.

[quote=molgrips ]Is there some special process with teachers that has the word 'no' expunged from their vocabulary?
Problem is that, like [s]doctors and nurses[/s] lorry drivers, farmers, power station workers etc etc etc etc, the job NEEDS doing.
You'd be quicker listing the jobs that DON'T need doing. I'll start...

Manicurist

the issue of people needing adequate pay for working these kinds of hours still remains

Give or take a bit the pay isnt the issue.

Problem is that, like doctors and nurses lorry drivers, farmers,

Funny thing is my old man was a lorry driver and the law prevented him from working too many hours.

So, got to school at 8 this morning.
Did some prep first thing, then staff briefing and tutor group.

taught a 4 lesson day, with one free period (where I had to chase up some material orders that had gone astray on the system).

Break time I was on duty, and lunchtime I had some keen students in working on a project (DIY guitar with piezo pickup, if you're asking).

After school I held a dept meeting where we looked at progress and assessment, and targeted low achieving Yr10 and 11 students for intervention.

Home for 6pm, dinner and put the 3 year old to bed.

Working on and off, with a few tea breaks, until 9.30....general emails (cos when do I get the chance during the day!?), a bit of marking, and planning an staff INSET training session for next Friday.

So I make that about 11 hours today, and that's pretty typical. Though I am a Head of Faculty, and teach a pretty full timetable too.

Works out about 50-55 hours a week, not including any work I do at the weekend. Though last week was probably more, as I was at school until gone 8pm on two evenings - open evening and Yr11 parents evening.

I love the job (well sometimes!), but hours-wise it bears no comparison to any other job I did in the decade before I did my PGCE.

Finished a four day Gold DoE yesterday at 5pm for the school ( October hols up here) One parent was 45mins late collecting their child. " Oh well; it's an hour's overtime for you." was the comment. Even changing the lighting in the Bentley couldn't unboil my piss.

Right i'm at work, start the clock!

I'm not aware of any other profession where someone who has never done the job, thinks they know everything about it!

I've been a passenger on a plane, doesn't mean I know how to ****ing fly it!

Right i'm at work, start the clock!

Only when you stop surfing the net. Time spent on here when you are "at work" is essentially stealing off your employer unless you are self employed 😉

The breaks thing can certainly be true.

mrs rkk01 went weeks at a time without a coffee or lunch break. Many days she wasn't even able to take a toilet break. Not acceptable in any job, IMHO

mate - I've worked 36 - 48 hr shifts in the past. I still sit down and eat at some point.

None stop? Bollocks!

Not none stop. I've certainly worked 36 hours without sleep on occasion, stopping to eat. Then grabbing 3 or 4 hrs sleep before going back.

This is not routine, 1 or 2 times in a 12 month period. Not unusual for my industry.

The reason I call BS on teachers routinely working 60 hrs per week, is that working 60 hrs per week every week is exhausting and almost impossible if you have any kind of other responsibilities, travel, cooking, cleaning, kids etc.

In an offshore environment, a 84 hour working week is normal and you also get meal breaks, so probably more like 77, however, this is normally for a 2 week or max 4 week period and you don't have anything else to do, no cooking, cleaning, laundry etc. It's also followed by a matching leave period.

The reason I call BS on teachers routinely working 60 hrs per week, is that working 60 hrs per week every week is exhausting and almost impossible if you have any kind of other responsibilities, travel, cooking, cleaning, kids etc.

VVVVVVVVVV

I'm not aware of any other profession where someone who has never done the job, thinks they know everything about it!

I've been a passenger on a plane, doesn't mean I know how to **** fly it!

Sleeping at work now there's a novelty.

Sleeping at work now there's a novelty.

Not really.

Air crew, marine crew, fire fighters, offshore workers. Probably a few more.

Nice.

Just a question for the parents on here. I am currently based in the USA and it surprised me to find out that they expect the kids to do what seems like 3-4 hours of homework each night including interactive stuff on the internet and most of the parents expect to tutor the kids for 1-2 hours.
It might be the aspirations of the guys I work with but just wondered how this compares as I certainly did not have that level of work to do outside of school

mattrgee - Member
I'm not aware of any other profession where someone who has never done the job, thinks they know everything about it!

I'm not aware of any other profession where someone who has never done the job, thinks they know everything about it!

Possibly because we all have thousands of hours of watching teachers doing their jobs?

I can't think of any other profession, apart from my own, that I have so much 1st hand experience of.

... that working 60 hrs per week every week is exhausting and almost impossible if you have any kind of other responsibilities, travel, cooking, cleaning, kids etc.

That's the point. It's bloody hard with little reward, and getting harder.

In an offshore environment, a 84 hour working week is normal and you also get meal breaks, so probably more like 77, however, this is normally for a 2 week or max 4 week period and you don't have anything else to do, no cooking, cleaning, laundry etc. It's also followed by a matching leave period.

A good friend of mine works offshore, welding rigs back together. He has a pretty dangerous job as he's often dangling over the North Sea with a load of heavy and highly explosive kit. He's trained - high ropes courses, various welding tickets - but he's not got a three year degree and a one year PGCE (equivalent of a Masters) plus a year of NQT to do his job. He also does 12 hour days for his shift. That said, he does 12 hour days that are very, very broken up by breaks that are legally enforceable - I don't believe he'll do much more than an hour and a half in one hit. If the weather's foul he doesn't go out, bearing in mind he's in the middle of the North Sea.

For every week he's on the rig he also gets that off - strikes me as a better deal than a teacher's holiday. He also gets paid a damn sight more.

This isn't intended as a dig: what I am saying is the two are not particularly comparable.

I can't think of any other profession, apart from my own, that I have so much 1st hand experience of.

But you don't have first hand experience of it. You have second hand experience of it; you have first hand experience of being a student.

You'd be quicker listing the jobs that DON'T need doing.

What I meant was that in some jobs, if you refuse to do more work your employer's bottom line is all that's affected - and they will (or should) eventually hire more people or reorganise the workload. But that starts with you saying no.

In other jobs, if you say no to extra tasks then third parties are directly affected. People would die, houses would burn down and so on. You simply can't say no. And in this modern austerity world the employers (often the government) know this and take advantage of it.

I didn't particularly like my current job (local authority children's homes, very long hours, increasingly poor pay, bullying management and high staff turnover). My wife suggested I give teaching a go, so I looked into it.

**** that, I said.

Yup. In a sane world, the most critical jobs would be treated the best and valued the most. Instead, we get "It should be a vocation not a job" "You're just greedy if you put yourself before kids", "Oh so now I'm supposed to look after my own kids am I?" "you're putting lives at risk", "they should be banned from striking". The more essential the job is, the more dickish we are when dealing with the people that do it.

The reason I call BS on teachers routinely working 60 hrs per week, is that working 60 hrs per week every week is exhausting and almost impossible if you have any kind of other responsibilities, travel, cooking, cleaning, kids etc.

Which is why my wife (who is also a teacher) has recently given up her job to look after our daughter, she is also going to be doing some child minding to bring in a bit of money. If I was a single parent I doubt I'd manage the job as it currently stands.

Most teachers spend the first part of the holidays recovering - literally! Almost every year I reach the summer holidays and as soon as relax I develop a nasty cold or cough 😐

Stop the clock. Going home...do I win anything?

Get on with the marking... 😉

Km79. You're right if teachers said enough en masse then things would change. Exactly what's been done in Scotland. To cut a long story short. Assessments used to be marked externally and payments were made, these moved to internal marking no payment. Lots of other encroachments on time. eis members worked to rule. Now things are set to change according to the politicians.

The more essential the job is,

Who defines what an essential job is?

Guardian now have an article up by a teacher emphasising Scotroutes point about learning to say 'No'

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/11/burnout-teachers-teaching-extra-work ]Guardian linky[/url]

You're right if teachers said enough en masse then things would change

What, like striking? Its not helping imo. Scotland has a somewhat different political context.

dragon your point is valid but suggesting that all teachers in england are too wet to say no whilst those in scotland can manage it doesnt wash.
That article is also shit in that it says **** all about what corners to cut. The interesting but was about teachers with 10+ years experience ate as rare as hens teeth may help explain much of the issue. I have that level of experience and can keep things on an even keel by knowing where to cut. Most havent learnt that yet. I also have the advantage that management leave me alone whilstvthe less experienced are checked and pushed to death.

PE Teacher here, Im in around 7.30, leave around 5.30 each day. Friday leave at 3.30. Fixture will mean I get back to school around 6ish, sometimes later. Cricket in the summer might be 8, but im being paid to umpire a cricket game (hopefully in the sunshine).

I feel like I work hard, im exhausted by the time the holidays come around. I don't do any work in the holidays or weekend. Rarely take work home.

I love my job, I think there are definately harder jobs and I wouldn't teach a different subject, they are heroes, When I think how long my marking etc... takes for my few classroom lessons there is no way I would be a teacher of anything else. They work really hard.

But I don't think teachers are heroes, the pay is good, we get lots of time off, I don't think we are under the crazy pressure and targets of some private sector people. Maybe our pay reflects that?! I am under no intention of retiring early....35 years to go! 😀

Just to state the obvious, it's not the job of teachers to resist unreasonable demands from institution and management; it's the job of management to avoid making unreasonable demands.

gobuchul - Member

I can't think of any other profession, apart from my own, that I have so much 1st hand experience of.

Professional gobshite?

PE Teacher here,

No one gives a shit what you think 😆

Scotland has a somewhat different political context.

and weaker educational attainment despite the SNP's rhetoric - no surprise there though

Literacy and numeracy standards
Educational equality
PISA scores (FWTW)
Student grants
Transparency of performance

Good old SNP - you're safe in their slippery hands

How are you comparing thm. If you compared scottish to similar socio economic areas of england and wales how does it look?

Partially and where relevant

Northwind management are people also, they make mistakes or don't have the whole picture. In the best places I've worked management push everyone hard but also listen and take on board issues. A them and us attitude never leads to good performance.