craigxxl
I have not called for the cop to be punished and I do have a lot of sympathy with the cops - however that does not absolve him from the obligation to stay within the law.
Its the idiots on here that think a cop beating someone without any possible justification is reasonable that annoy me.
Beating someone who is not resisting nor any threat ( and you can tell that quite clealry from the vid - they let him get up on his own) is never justifiable. Understandable perhaps but never justifiable
Innocent until proven guilty
Just words that, you can be guilty of something without it being proven
this
do you mean the criminal in the uniform
disgusts me.
Your attitude disgusts me.
oldgit - MemberInnocent until proven guilty
Just words that, you can be guilty of something without it being proven
Yes but you shouldn't be punished until it's proven [b]beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law.[/b]
TJ - you'll note that I have put forward my position without having to resort to insult. Pity you can't manage this.
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I'll take the STW version of a beating rather than the one above.
peachos - Member
this"do you mean the criminal in the uniform"
disgusts me.
Are you saying police can't be criminals? My sister was a CSO in Holburn and had stuff stolen from her locker, in the police station, on more than one occasion.
druidh
However yo won't answer the question - do you think that beating is justifiable? the beaten youth is clearly not resisting nor is he any threat.
could have been the poor cleaner with no other opportunities in life
dam we failed her 🙄
TJ we are all making judgements to some extent as to what was going on, but the fact is that the scenario weights itself to those kids having been involved in some trouble.
FunkyDunc - Member
TJ we are all making judgements to some extent as to what was going on, but the fact is that the scenario weights itself to those kids having been involved in some trouble.
Balls it does.
funky dunc - and that justifies a beating?
Northernstar - check out the news, these thugs need to be off our streets. Innocent people have died and yet some are still defending the scum bags who are keeping good honest people out of their own towns.
When/how will the riots stop if the police don't use force?
First of all, you don't know whether he is a threat or not. The video contains but a moment in time and you've no idea what preceded it. You are quick to jump to the conclusion you want. And once again, anyone who doesn't support your viewpoint is an idiot?
And you won't answer the question - how are the number of police officers available supposed to deal with the widespread nature of the disturbances if they have to arrest everyone and process them at the station?
What video?
When/how will the riots stop if the police don't use force?
Seems to have stopped in London, without resorting to random beatings of youths who look 'dodgy'
oh man, TJ is gonna run and run with this. It's gonna be one of [i]those[/i] threads. And for that reason alone, I'm out!
of course coppers can be criminal, the bobies are just the same as the rest of us. soon someone will suggest that all nhs workers are saints, politicians are examples of leadership and virtue. All walks of life a reflection of the society we have created for ourselves, unfortunatley society at the moment is on a downward spiral as western civilisation implodes in some sort of law of the jungle.
Lifer - no that's nothing like what I'm saying. In this instance, after everything what has gone on in our cities in the last few days, and from speculating about one small clip from which very little can be made out - calling someone, who is putting themselves at risk to help restore calm to our streets, a job which very few people on here and in the rest of society would envy, a criminal - is fricking RIDICULOUS and DISGUSTING.
that's what i'm saying. and TJ, if that is the attitude that disgusts you, then i'm absolutely fine with that.
By acting within the law and in accordance with their training - which can involve dispersing people even forciably. There is no justification for the baton strikes on the youth on the ground
It is irrelevant what happened before - the beaten person does not resist or try to run away and is clearly no threat as the cops let him get up on his own.
As for insults you claimed that I said something yesterday that I did not and was really rather offensive. Frankly I found that insulting.
Kevevs - Member
oh man, TJ is gonna run and run with this. It's gonna be one of those threads. And for that reason, I'm out!
Agreed.
TJ, go outside. Ride your bike. Have some fun.
Seems to have stopped in London, without resorting to random beatings of youths who look 'dodgy'
It's only taken 4 nights and £millions in damages, lost businesses/jobs and how much taxes to pay for it all. Best let all the rioters just carry on until there is nothing left to loot and destroy. Then we can wave a magic wand and make it better again and just hope that rioters have respect for law again or they just get bored again and go take what they want when the next must trainers and phones come out.
Whats all this about beating? Is it another thread about....
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My wife counted 54 wrecked businesses on her walk across the town centre at lunch time.
Footage from last night showed scrotes moving rapidly on bikes from one looting to the next being chased by the Police. Perhaps in this instance they caught some.
Hopefully tonight if it happens again they will bust a few more heads.
Lifer, thanks for the larf! I wonder what these youths were doing late last night in central Manchester, on bikes and wearing hoods!
Clearly police brutality is a bad thing, but this isn't the best example to use...
It will become widely accepted in coming days that the actions of the police (specifically the Met) have been restricted to the detriment of the wider law abiding citizenry. This restriction has mostly been caused through the public reaction towards unlawful actions of their own officers (Tomlinson, hundreds of deaths in custody etc). However, the apologists and knee jerk critics of the police on this thread (and elsewhere) need to consider whether the pendulum has swung to far in one direction, and simply led to a population of untouchables due to the hobbling of police action.
I find it hard to stomach that after 4 nights of rioting people will still expend effort trying to find examples of police brutality.
sefton - Memberjust been told a gun shop & b&q has been turned over in Bolton - not sure how true though!
Well, just got back from Bolton centre and no sirens, no meltdown, no mobs ruling the streets.
The curry from Rice 'n' Three was a bit spicier than usual though.
.....is clearly not resisting nor is he any threat.
A beating will do that.
As for insults you claimed that I said something yesterday that I did not and was really rather offensive. Frankly I found that insulting.
why not go out in the street and smash things to make it all better!
interesting Dailywail article alert:
Perhaps the actions of the cops in that video are beyond reasonable, but haven't we maybe reached a point where the kid gloves need to come off? it's interesting that the Turks in Dalton kept their area protected, armed with big sticks. The threat of a sound thrashing was enough to deter the rioters and looters. See also the Millwall firm protecting their streets and no one dared go near them.
I wouldn't go out on a rampage because a) I know it's wrong and b) I'm scared of the consequences. These mobs do know it's wrong, but they don't care, however they're not scared of the consequences as there basically are none as far as they can tell. However they do appear to be scared of a sound thrashing from blokes with big sticks...
Whats all this about beating? Is it another thread about....
If I wasn't on my smartphone, then it would probably be.
Eggs are just so much simpler than people.
Okay, my two cents.
Firstly, we have no idea what age the people on bikes are, so any 'child abuse' lines of argument are null and void, although even if they are minors, they appear highly likely to be above the age of criminal responsibility.
Secondly, there's a lot of conjecture and assumptions being made. We don't know what has happened leading up to or following this event.
Thirdly, an awful lot of fuss is being made about reasonable and appropriate force; this is very much dependant on the situation and certainly NOT for anyone here to decide. However if the force used stopped the individual from making an escape, allowed him to be neutralised as a threat towards the police and public and yet he was still able to get up unaided straight afterwards, it certainly seems fairly reasonable and appropriate to me, (and I suspect quite a few others).
Fourthly, arrested?? Seriously? Cells full, paperwork backing up, resources required to obtain a conviction... We expect our police officers to exercise judgment of this type every Friday and Saturday night, let alone at times of mass civil unrest, looting, rioting, naughtiness, whatever you want to call it. We don't actually know whether Nyone was detained for sure, but I personally trust the officer's intelligence led judgement as to whether it is necessary.
Good luck to my colleagues in all of the emergency services in dealing with these extremely difficult circumstances. Stay safe.
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That wasn't a beating anyway. I bet the liddle see you next tuesday gets far worse when his dad comes home pished from the boozer or when his mam catches him pinching money out her purse 🙂
To be honest the softly softly, hold their hand, human/civil rights approach does not seem to be working.
TJ what field of work are you in? From what you are saying you appear to be a do gooder who works with the scum of the earth and tries to help them out.
However thats isnt the view of many people I know who do with the scum of the earth who are just saying there is only one way of communicating with them. (in the present situation)
That's a pretty good description of his work on STWFunkyDunc - Member
TJ what field of work are you in? From what you are saying you appear to be a do gooder who works with the scum of the earth and tries to help them out.
funkydunc about to be pwnd....
😕
No come on, Im not trying to score points or any thing just understand TJ's point of view 🙂
"find it hard to stomach that after 4 nights of rioting people will still expend effort trying to find examples of police brutality."
We have had 4 nights of behavior that to my mind call for a direct and physical response from the police. The kettling, baton charges shield walls, mounted charges etc which were used with such enthusiasm against relatively peaceful demonstrators earlier would be wholly proportionate in the current riot situation .
But as TJ and others argue that is only one side of the coin we also need to understand and address the underlying causes otherwise the problem is only temporarily contained and will boil over again. Police use of excessive force and perceived racism is one of the underlying issues. Beating up some youths who have done nothing and then not arresting them does not help.
I am a nurse. I have worked alongside the police dealing with all sorts of unpleasant people. I got to hide behind a cop when it all kicked off - but that did mean I got to see police control and restraint done efficiently and legally.
I have cops in my family, I have cops amongst my friends. I hate to see cops use unnecessary violence as it adds to the troubles
Whilst I don't necessarily agree with the Police's actions in this instance it's just a short piece of video that doesn't tell the whole story. The fact that there is a Police helicopter overhead which has tracked them to that junction, I'm guessing they weren't exactly "just riding bikes in hoodies". If they were then the use of the 'copter and waste of resources is a far bigger crime than that shown in the footage.
I'd even be as bold to suggest it was the 'copter crew that directed the cops on the ground into position.
TJ fair enough - thats interesting, I have family who are cops, Dr's and a friend who works in undercover customs, and they feel that there is a subset of society that only know to behave in a certain manner and will only do things when controlled in a certain manner. Its not right or good, but unfortunately a reflection of where we are.
Are those who are advocating a beating as the ultimate means of punishment for the looters saying that this is a greater detterant than proper legal recourse?
Personally I'd prefer a bit of beating for a new Rolex than a criminal record...
I'm coming across (here and in the papers) more comments along the lines of "I'm on the left, but..." or "I'm a Guardian reader, but..." about the commentor wanting comparitively vicious "justice" meted out to looters.
Is the worm turning?
TSY - The looters are openly laughing in the face of the law, there have been loads of them on the TV saying so what if I get caught its only a fine, a bit of a stay in prison. Its NOT a deterent.
So yes why not try force with force when quite clearly the legal system is no deterent. Or do we just let them keep smashing stuff up until they get bored of it and go home and read a good book?
hopefully some good will come from footage like this and make the scum think twice! they live by street rules where violence and fear keeps order!
there probably not even surprised or appalled at footage like this - this is how they role!
what happens when they don't pay there layons to the dealers or shag the wrong girl....they get ****ted!
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Great to see the 'Pikey' word used on page 4 by Camerone. Thanks you prej c*unt.
It must be frustrating being a policeman and watching yobs destroy what is possibly your home town and being able to do nothing about it because you're hands have been tied. Because if you put one baton wrong you could end up in court with the yob smiling at you as you give your evidence to defend youself.
I bet sometimes they're desperate to give what these degenerates really deserve...after all most law-abiding people are hiding in their homes too scared to go out. Surely someone needs to stamp this out and stop treating people who don't care with kid gloves.
I for one have encountered youths who believe that law and order doesn't apply to them...they 'know' noone can touch them...they 'know' that whatever they do the police can't touch them. More often than not they 'know' they'll get a caution.
*When I say 'know' I mean this is what they think as this has been their experience in th past.
It warms my cockles when I hear stories of communities striking back, such as the Bangladeshi and Turkish communities in London.
I hate these yobs...they aren't desperate for jobs and to feel part of a community...they enjoy their lives of taking and not giving back.
A FB friend says he had a lovely day out at the zoo with his young daughter yesterday... in Belfast.
Oh! The ironing. 😕
inrat but back to the OP. Good on the Police, glad my taxes are going towards them, more of the same please
An alternative and quite possible scenario - said juvenille 'victims' had been tearing up the local area half the night, plod have been trying to apprehend them, the little misunderstood darlings hurl bricks and and other such like stuff seriously injuring one of the coppers, then jeer and ride off - you can easily see how the 'restraint' happened. Whether it's right or if it was excessive isn't for us to decide. The little thug got up without too much bother, I'd say he got off pretty lightly.
I do admire some people's ability to see the good in everyone on here, however I can't. Having had a kicking myself by a pissed up thug many years ago leaving me with stitches in my face kinda changes your thoughts on softly softly ( he got a caution despite having a long track record for it)
Anyone know where this was filmed BTW?
Behind the Aldi on Great Ancoats Street (Ducie Street area?)
Near the City Arms (Little Peter Street area?)
Or somewhere random in Salford?
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Demonstration = good policing.
Rioting and risking peoples lives with arson and wanton violence- then ALL bets are off to restore order.
I don't see any comparison or need to compare with Ian Tomlinson. That was a one-off demonstration not a struggle to return law and order in such a situation.
Well ****ing done.
good to see people uniting in these bad times to post pictures of omlettes and the two ronnies!
I do admire some people's ability to see the good in everyone on here,
Its nothing to do with it - what the beaten youth was aor was not doing is irrelevant - I want the cops to act within the law and within their training. beating someone with a baton whilst on the ground who is not resisting or a threat is neither.
We know he is not a threat and they do not think he has a weapon as they let him get up on his own - its not a restraint - its just a beating
The little thug
So how do you know he is a little thug?
how do you know hes not (in that situation I think you have to assume he is)!
Not just omelettes and the Two Ronnies fella. Diana too:
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I know nothing about the youth. It does amuse me the assumptions. Why do you have to assume he is?
All we know is what we see. He stopped when the cop came towards him, the cop beat him to the ground and continued to beat him on the ground then the cops allowed him to get up on his own.
Was he wearing a helmet??
beating someone with a baton whilst on the ground who is not resisting or a threat is neither.
Wah wah wah, boo, ****ing hoo!
Fact is, its a 'king sight more effective at deterring people from rioting and looting than the existing criminal justice system!
TJ - the left has failed, the namby pamby apologist non-judgementalism has failed, some of us have said throughout that it would
Time to crack some heads together and restore order!
TJ, I'm not a Police Officer nor can I profess to know exactly what its like however it seems to be a very physical job with alot of risks and these officers were probably hungry, knackered, pissed off and trying to stop and regain control. What we can't see is probably what happened- the baton was what was used and it could have been to his legs.
A few blows says to the others 'they mean business bruda's lets just get out of here/sod this'.
Or would you prefer flats set onfire and innocents burned to death when it escalates?
Personally I'd rather see thugs alittle bruised but learn that authority is on the streets.
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I do love this concept of summary street justice that plenty of people seem to be advocating. While I was travelling home last night on the ring road of our city a group of working class youth in sportswear were crossing the road as the lights were changing. An expensive car decided to speed up and aimed at the youth. This car was seriously close to running over some of these kids, they had to jump out of the way of this speeding car. Is this the attitude we should endorse? You're in a group of over 5 people, dressed in sportswear and therefore you deserve my wrath cos you're all scum! (Note - there has been no trouble in my city)
I've sympathy for people who demonstrate peacefully and heavy handed policing has no place here.
As soon as you start throwing bricks/rocks/bottles then setting fire to peoples homes you cross a very serious line. Then its force to halt risk to peoples lives.
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Diana Dors, eh?
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The... Management.
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live by the sword die by the sword (for the record that's the cheesiest thing I've ever posted - but I feel its necessary in these dark times)
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There you go
http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/you-can-all-relax-now-the-casuals-are-gonna-defend-us
TJ, why do you persist in using the term youth? That's one of those 'we don't know the facts' thingies... according to another thread the first looter to be convicted was 31...
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v8 - they look like youths to me in the vid could be small men i suppose, could be children rare to see a group of grown men riding around on bikes in hoodies like that.
It is am assumptiontho
