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BIL is selling his 54 plate small van soon as the CAZ comes into force in May and it covers the whole of Greater Manchester. They are a small electrical shop and can't afford the £10 per day charge. Nor can they afford a new van.
Gone would be any plans for me to buy an older van as a day van for bike transport. How are folks going to manage with older campers, especially those on the outlying areas of the zone, but still in it.
This is going to be an issue for more than just Manchester, Bath and Bristol are introducing their own restrictions very soon as well. Although, anyone who lives in the centre of Bath probably doesn’t bother with owning a car, unless they’re among the really lucky ones who has a garage or dedicated parking space, as trying to find anywhere to park is almost impossible anyway. Bristol’s different, as it’s a very much bigger city, and more people live outside the city centre proper.
I’m glad I changed my car last year and went for petrol instead of diesel, my old Octavia wouldn’t have passed the limits set down.
This is going to be an issue for more than just Manchester
For manchester it’s a great move in the effort to reduce local pollution. Although I believe that the restrictions should have been more wide-ranging and included all ICE vehicles as “Private cars, motorbikes and mopeds won’t be affected”. It’s also disappointing that there are no ULEZ parts to the zone. Those could have made a big difference to areas most affected by road pollution.
It is tough on folks who have vehicles that fail to meet the new standards as they’re caught in the change. But emissions will only reduce if we make an effort to reduce them. The same goes for local pollution. Within my lifetime things have improved with the introduction of compulsory seatbelts, removal of lead from petrol, introduction of emissions limits and catalytic converters, and now electric vehicles including huge non-stinky buses.
That HMG didn’t include the motorway network in the zone is a disappointment. That would have shown a commitment to reducing local pollution and a commitment to the north. But that strays into a different discussion.
It took me a few clicks on the poor CAGM website to find the standards:
The minimum emissions standards for compliant vehicles are:
Van (LGV) (Euro category N1) – Euro 6 diesel, Euro 4 petrol
Hackney carriage and PHV (Euro category M1 and minibus M2) – Euro 6 diesel, Euro 4 petrol
Minibus (Euro category M2) – Euro 6/VI diesel, Euro 4/IV petrol
Coach (Euro category M3) – Euro VI diesel
HGV (Euro category N2 and N3) – Euro VI diesel
For manchester it’s a great move in the effort to reduce local pollution. Although I believe that the restrictions should have been more wide-ranging and included all ICE vehicles as “Private cars, motorbikes and mopeds won’t be affected”.
Manchester bolloxed the whole thing up in 2008 when they had a referendum about introducing a Congestion Charge zone and using that to fund the expansion of the Metrolink tran network. Naturally, the referendum got hijacked by all the vocal right-wing morons, the debate was really toxic and the vote was an overwhelming no. So now Manchester is in the position where it can't really introduce charging for private motorists "because of the referendum".
When will people realise that you don't ask the public policy questions via a yes/no referendum? They're invariably a disaster.
My car is 8 years old (2013 plate) but does not meet the requirements for the Birmingham Clean Air Zone.
Renault Megane Diesel, £30/yr RFL.
I was surprised.
That'll be less trips to Birmingham for me now. Cleaner air? I doubt it, lorries will still be travelling through the area.Central Brum is a huge area, there will be 1000's of lorries and vans that need to deliver there each day.
The M6 Jn. 6 to 8, has a constant 60mph speed limit to 'reduce emissions', yet the most polluting vehicles are limited to 60 anyway.
The Metro trams have been cancelled for the next month due to reliability issues with the new vehicles. Buses are replacing them. That'll be diesel buses going where the current electric vehicles go. There is no joined up thinking, Politicians say they want to reduce emissions, yet still allow vehicles in, but charge them. It seems like an easy way to raise funds.
That’ll be less trips to Birmingham for me now. Cleaner air? I doubt it, lorries will still be travelling through the area.Central Brum is a huge area, there will be 1000’s of lorries and vans that need to deliver there each day.
Do you have a source for Clean Air Zones not working? There are enough working examples in the world that there should be some reasonable data on it. I personally don’t know, found a couple of news articles but from sources I’d expect to lean towards them working.
Politicians say they want to reduce emissions, yet still allow vehicles in, but charge them. It seems like an easy way to raise funds.
Whats wrong with charging the polluters? Seems perfectly fair to me and I drive an ageing diesel van. And it’s not like it’s a surprise, it’s been clear ever since London’s zone stuck that other cities would follow suit.
The Metro trams have been cancelled for the next month due to reliability issues with the new vehicles. Buses are replacing them. That’ll be diesel buses going where the current electric vehicles go.
Whats the alternative? Are they able to source a fleet of zero emission (at point of use) vehicles but have chosen diesel instead to cover the gap?
A lot of people commute into Manchester, a congestion charge on the scale proposed would have been catastrophically bad for many of them. I used to commute in, took me between 50 mins to an hour most of the time. There was no way I could have done it on public transport, would have taken hours, 4 mile walk, 2 buses and the tram. I'd have had no flexibility on hours which I needed. I chose where I lived based on proximity to work, unfortunately the factory shut not soon after, after that it was a case of take work where I could find it.
A lot of congestion in Manchester is down to poor road layout, the congestion got a lot worse when they introduced the intemittant bus lanes which didn't help the buses much but really messed things up for everyone else. The other major issue was the number of traffic lights, massively increased journey times and made it a lot easier to use the residential streets as cut throughs. They should reduce the number of lights on the main arterial roads which would have sped up the traffic and made it less attractive to cut through the residential areas.
There's a lot council's could do to reduce congestion / pollution before hammering motorists.
FWIW my main car is also not Birmingham or ULEZ compliant, sailed through the last MOT on its emmissions, still got a,good few years motoring left in. I'd love an electric car, I've no worries about range etc. but the cost of them is crazy, we looked at a fiat 500 electric, petrol model was £13k (which we bought), electric £27k, just couldn't justify it.
I doubt it, lorries will still be travelling through the area.
In Bristol the charge for lorries will be £100. I reckon that's enough to put a few off. Charging people 5p for carrier bag was enough to pretty much stop their use.
It was one if the reasons I ditched my personal use Transit and replaced it with a Berlingo multispace car for doggo and bike duties. The issue is that the zone covers the whole of the Greater Manchester area and includes areas like Ramsbottom to the north and bordering on my district.
Going to be a whole load of T4/early T5's etc caught up in this.
Going to be a whole load of T4/early T5’s etc caught up in this.
If its for the odd weekend away then its probably not a deal breaker. If its a daily driver then the new zones will likely have the desired effect
It covers very rural and non congested areas.
Yes there needs to be change however I feel it needs to be assisted by grants.
Also is scraping a load of vehicles that are serviceable good in the long term or does it just move to pollution off shore to some other country?
The public transport service levels in places like rammy or horwich parts of Wigan are shit
Renault Megane Diesel, £30/yr RFL.
I was surprised.
That’ll be less trips to Birmingham for me now
Euro6 was quite a big change and made diesels much cleaner in terms of harmful emissions to our health. Have you considered the train? Might be cheaper for you now.
Sheffield is doing similar to Manchester and their press release made it quite clear that trade related traffic made up for a disproportionately large amount of emissions. If they were to take it further I think a good start would be to ban parking in bus lanes even whilst they're not active. There would be so much less traffic if the arterial routes could be dual laned as intended rather than being used as a private carpark.
I live close to Bath and my private van gets charged if I want to drive into the centre (I very rarely do). It has forced most of the commercial traffic onto the roads around the city centre.
I think all traffic should be banned from city centres but we don't have a viable public transport infrastructure or cycling/walking provisions for that. You also have to factor in that people are lazy and think they have a right to drive anywhere.
Nor can they afford a new van.
If he wants his business to continue how can he afford not to? Presuming his vehicle is necessary to it now?
I mean let's say for arguments sake that his current van dies on him? what then?
A lot of congestion in Manchester is down to poor road layout, the congestion got a lot worse when they introduced the intemittant bus lanes which didn’t help the buses much but really messed things up for everyone else.
Machester's buses themselves screw the whole thing up. There are dozens of competing bus companies, all wanting to operate the most profitable routes (as they're all deregulated, it's a free market etc). That means you have roads where there are 4 or 5 different bus companies running essentially the same service and roads 100m off to the side where there are no buses at all.
Most of the services go into Piccadilly Gardens leading to a massive logjam around there.
A lot of the roads into Manchester are dual carriageways, overpasses and so on so it's specifically created a generation of car users and Manchester makes a LOT of money out of its city centre car parks so they're not really that keen on discouraging motorists. Catch 22. Clog up the city centre but when they park up, it's a good revenue generator.
Machester’s buses themselves screw the whole thing up.
Never known a place like it for bus congestion TBH.
We're in a similar position. My Wife is a landscape gardener (self employed) and drives a 10 year old 1.6 Caddy).
She need to carry all sorts of equipment including lawnmowers, strimmers and other various heavy tools.
We also use the van for the odd biking day out (we mostly use the car for this these days). My car lease goes back in June next year and we're going down to one vehicle.
Our options are to see if we can make an electric van work (range, charging, affordability etc), or lease a new van that won't get caught in the charge. Paying up to £60 a week just to make a living isn't really feasible.
I get that something needs to be done, but this type of approach always hits the poorer the most. Big companies usually have a fleet of current lease vehicles anyway, so it won't really affect them.
Oh bums
Isn't there a financial scheme set to launch in January to specifically help micro businesses like your wife's?
I believe that the restrictions should have been more wide-ranging and included all ICE vehicles as “Private cars, motorbikes and mopeds won’t be affected”.
As said there are plenty of folk that rely on their own vehicles for getting to work, not all have the option of public transport or the means to just move or buy a new car.
You can't use the stick without also having a carrot, better, affordable mass transit at times people need it would be a great start.
That HMG didn’t include the motorway network in the zone is a disappointment.
Great idea, how do you propose the zone gets bypassed? All you are then doing is shifting the traffic onto smaller, less suitable roads.
Manchester and Glasgow are two cities that spring to mind as having arterial routes round or through their centres, you can debate the rights and wrongs of that but they aren't going anywhere any time soon.
Paying up to £60 a week just to make a living isn’t really feasible.
How much less do you expect the lease on a new van to be?
My Wife is a landscape gardener (self employed) and drives a 10 year old 1.6 Caddy).
She need to carry all sorts of equipment including lawnmowers, strimmers and other various heavy tools.
We also use the van for the odd biking day out (we mostly use the car for this these days). My car lease goes back in June next year and we’re going down to one vehicle.
Our options are to see if we can make an electric van work (range, charging, affordability etc), or lease a new van that won’t get caught in the charge. Paying up to £60 a week just to make a living isn’t really feasible.
Or increase her prices. People paying for her services need to pay for their share of the pollution.
Oh bums
I've not looked at the map yet, but I expect my answer will be similar
Well, I've just checked, and my 54 plate diesel T5 is charge-free until June 2023, from when it will cost me a tenner to drive into the Zone.
That’s huuuuuge. I live just over the border in Holmfirth West Yorks and most of my routes to the western motorway network are buggered except for the perma-lorry-queue at Mottram. I’ll be able to make plans but astonished this doesn’t start with the M60 as a boundary, after all the issue is more about the combined effect of congestion and emissions and less about administrative boundaries.
I'm looking forward to buying a used van at knock down price.
They have been sky high for too long!
but astonished this doesn’t start with the M60 as a boundary, after all the issue is more about the combined effect of congestion and emissions
I briefly thought the same, then remembered what a stinky shitshow Washway Road is going through Sale and Timperley.
If he wants his business to continue how can he afford not to? Presuming his vehicle is necessary to it now?
I mean let’s say for arguments sake that his current van dies on him? what then?
Posted 1 hour ago
Buys a 2nd hand one.....?
I briefly thought the same, then remembered what a stinky shitshow Washway Road is going through Sale and Timperley.
Fair point. Every ‘my area’s quiet’ can be countered with ‘mine’s rammed’
I've just checked my diesel '02 VW T4 factory kombi and it's charge free for Manchester and more relevent for me the Bradford ulez that starts in Jan '22.
This whole CAZ thing had somehow entirely passed me by until this post. I live in Trafford and have just bought a 14 plate connect at the current inflated prices as I need it to move equipment for work.
Hopefully will be eligible for the small business funding, but the kicker is I'm moving to New Mills soon- if I move before the funding comes through I won't get any as it's just outside the GM area. What a F******g nightmare.
I assume the prices for these vehicles will plummet when the charges come in.
I’ve just checked my diesel ’02 VW T4 factory kombi and it’s charge free for Manchester
Presume only charge-free for year one with vans kicking in in 2023??
Dunno, on the v5 it's described as "van side windows" "M1" and "diesel car" and the ved is car rate not van.
For those with businesses worried about replacing vans, there is central government funding to help with that. In Sheffield that comes in the form of "local businesses who operate vans: £3,500 grant or interest-free loan". I imagine it will be broadly similar elsewhere. Obviously that's not going to buy a whole van and maybe it will have restrictive terms, but it may bridge the gap.
https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/home/pollution-nuisance/clean-air-zone
Dunno, on the v5 it’s described as “van side windows” “M1” and “diesel car” and the ved is car rate not van.
Ooh, we need to get to the bottom of this pronto mate.
(older crew cab van owner living just inside GM here)
You can check your vehicle's liable for here:
https://multiple-vehiclecheck-pay.drive-clean-air-zone.service.gov.uk/what_would_you_like_to_do
We’re in a similar position. My Wife is a landscape gardener (self employed) and drives a 10 year old 1.6 Caddy).
Buy a Berling Multispace / Dispatch Tepee / VW Caravelle or equivilent van based 'car' and get a local print place to do some of that perforated 'one way vision' sticker stuff over the windows so it looks like a van.
We're right on 'the edge' of the zone, but I can see many small businesses not being able to afford a new van, even with the small grants. I can see the used prices of Berlingo Cars going up - all you need to do is remove the seats' and you've got a van !
Loads of older VW campers round here. Fortunately it's not private cars that are hit. I do cycle in to work now, but take the canal for 13 miles. Too many broken bones commuting on the road.
Like others have said, it's not always practical to ditch a car - we both work outside the city centre. It's a good 30 minutes walk from the station to the office (both at opposite ends of Manchester.
You can check your vehicle’s liable for here:
Unfortunately it's inconclusive as it comes back with "no charge" for MCR but also says "temporary exemption" below that.
My hunch is that I will be charged when the exemption ends, as the Gov.uk search just classed my vehicle "van" rather than "dual purpose vehicle". Although it's also unclear whether DPVs will be exempted anyway.
I bought a new van recently and euro 6 emissions were minimum criteria. I work in bath a lot so need to be able to get tools there etc. Emissions were a part but reliability and saving on fuel were a factor. Ev vans are not currently affordable for me or have the range carrying a load. I get it and am willing to do my part but it does feel a bit like punishing businesses/self employed. In bath you can drive a big diesel 4x4 around or anything with a v8 in it without being charged. It just doesn’t seem fair that non commercial vehicles are exempt
Unfortunately it’s inconclusive as it comes back with “no charge” for MCR but also says “temporary exemption” below that.
It means you'll start paying from June 2023
It means you’ll start paying from June 2023
I think so, but the lady on the helpline wasn't really sure either.
She said there's some clarification coming at the end of this month.
maybe instead of punishing small business owners, they should charge the c***s turning deansgate into a carpark with their lambo's and hot hatch's, that get about 5mpg.
This is going to be an issue for more than just Manchester, Bath and Bristol are introducing their own restrictions very soon as well.
Good news, and well overdue. What's being missed in all the whataboutery is why these zones are being introduced: because air quality in our major cities is illegally poor, and it’s killing people.
I've had a good look at this today and Greater Manchester's approach is much bolder compared to the others as it's not a city-centre or even city-wide mandate but regional (clue is it's a Greater Manchester administrative regional initiative and not a Manchester 'citywide' initiative). Whilst the others are focused on the city-centre only, this is the equivalent of the West Midlands conurbation or West Yorkshire from a size, population and density perspective. Thinking of it as 'Manchester' (which is easy to do, particular for people unconnected with the region) is wildly inaccurate.
maybe instead of punishing small business owners
There is no skim off small businesses, how will the councillors live?
It's much better this way for councillors for 4 overwhelming reasons ..
1) We ship the problem to a 3rd world country.
At the moment it might just be viable for Johhny's Fridge and Washing machine repair business but just make it impossible to make money and Mr &Mrs Smith can just get a new fridge/washing machine etc. made in China. China burn the coal, send it a few thousand miles then when a major haulier drops it off they pay some skim and the councillors get rich.
The old one will need to be disposed of and .. well no-one can afford to do that then pay the extra cost for taking it to the recycling company so the council can skim off that as well..
Then the council re-cycling company can send it off to a different 3rd world country where some 7yr old gets employed burning it off to retrieve some copper.
2) This cuts down on the malingerers and scroungers... like old people who only pay the same council tax but require loads of services.. or families who have kids that need schools etc. Low paid people like carers, teaching assistants etc. won't be needed and lets face it they can't afford to travel to the vulnerable anyway... bit of luck a load will die and no longer be drawing on council funds and others will just move somewhere more sane to live out their remaining years and families can just be made to feel unwelcome, especially poor ones.
3) With those old people and families gone the council can attract young singletons who use few resources and can be packed into tower blocks, the most council tax dense form of 'housing'. (I use housing in it's widest sense) the can have communal (if rat infested bins) and if they do what many humans do, meet and have babies they can sod off somewhere else so not as to burned the council.
4) Chucking up towerblocks they meet the Govt quota and even as a labour authority might see some extra cash or grants.. remember every S106 loan they can take out is an opportunity for councillors to feed at the trough of plenty.
Also the cost of all these new vans. Who's paying...
The costs will be filtered down.
So peoples goods n services get more expensive. Government gets more VAT
I was a bit gutted when I finally after probably 20 years got a t5.1 van in April. I hadn't even heard of the clean air zone. I use mine as a daily driver from marple to north manchester, so its in the zone, gutting, however now im kind of thinking I might be ok as even though its a LWB van, on the v5 document its classed as a car as its a shuttle, Maybe it will be ok??
I sold my berlingo in April to buy a T5.1
I had no idea about this charger, my new van is a euro5. IT appears however a shuttle T5 is classed as a car, I think i'll be all ok even though its a LWB and looks like a bloody van!
I will always vote against any council that initiates this kind rubbish scheme. This scheme is only meant for bureaucrats to justify their importance. They punish the small business or people who are self employed as large business can afford whatever they levied on them. CAZ ... my foot.
Vote them out or you will be slowly punishing yourself.
This scheme is only meant for bureaucrats to justify their importance.
That's very nearly the dumbest thing I've ever read on this forum.
Yeah, I've got skin in the game, I commute on an arterial route into MCR city centre. The air quality is abysmal. It's even worse on deansgate where I work. XR shutting it down a couple of years back was amazing, the quality of the air leaped within a day.
It's not as if the govt aren't providing
Financial support to businesses for updating or modify their vehicles to avoid the charges. Also if you're local it's capped at £10 per day. Even if that's passed on to customers in full....it's ONLY a ****ing tenner FFS!
It is an ambitious scheme and I know something has to be done.
It might be better if it covered all relevant vehicles (not just commercials and private vans) and was only a fiver a day though.
I take the point about the referendum previously making it awkward, but it does seem a bit of a political decision rather than doing exactly the right thing.
My local council are planning a ULEZ calle a Zero emissions zone.
I checked with them and within this zone the burning of wood in a "Exempt appliance" (stove) in homes will still be allowed. Being that it "was estimated that wood burning was between 23 and 31% of the urban derived PM2.5 in London and Birmingham", and " Coupled with the poor correlation with daily temperature (R2 = 0.12- 0.57) this suggests that current urban wood burning is in large part decorative and is not being used primary heating" and "Wood smoke also contain several toxic air pollutants including benzene, formaldhyde, acrolein and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) such as Benzo[a]pyrene (B[a]P), contributing to the deterioration of urban air quality."
Clean air zones have my vote 100% but do it properly or you are just wasting your time and inconveniencing alot of people while categoricaly not meeting your aims from day 1.
Mixed feelings about these zones. As pointed out a number of times, they hit the poorest the most. 'Just add £10 a day on your daily bill to pay it'. How does that work when you are on a hourly rate? The Employers wont be interested in £2.5k pay rise for you.
Use public transport. Hmm, that'd be fine if buses ran 24hrs a day.
Round here they have spent multi millions on a park and ride scheme. But it is useless for workers, it only opens from 7 till 7pm, buses at 15 minute intervals.Why wait in a bus stop for 10 mins, when it wont take much more than that to actually drive into town?
Town centres are dying, so why do all the buses go to the centre, when the shopping is now on the outskirts? And why carry 4 bags of shopping when you can park 50 metres from the shop entrance, no walking to a bus stop, no mixing with the general public,and no waiting. The bus service is not appealing to a vast majority of people.
Buy a newer vehicle. Yes, right, when you struggle to pay for a £2k car, going out to get a £7k car isnt going to happen.
As for air quality, isnt it the best it has been for 50+ years?
I remember the 80's, almost smog conditions some days, cars, and lorries, that gave out more smoke than a coal fire. Things have improved massively. Local Government has let us down with their lack of planning and management of traffic. Punishing drivers for air quality is missing the point, there are no credible alternatives for traffic at the moment, so they just try and reduce traffic by charging them.
Good news, and well overdue. What’s being missed in all the whataboutery is why these zones are being introduced: because air quality in our major cities is illegally poor, and it’s killing people.
100% this. Living in Prestwich became incredibly unpleasant at times, downright revolting at others mainly due to the stench and foul-tasting clouds of crap coming out of your T4s, T5s, second-hand vans, cars, whatever. We moved far away principally because of the obvious health risks and it's all because of vehicles. Something needs to change and fast.
It's not punishing anyone, it's taking things away that are causing bigger problems than how Fred gets his ladders to a roofing job or how Tracy drives 5 miles to work. Think of an alternative.
I do agree that things should change, however the reason the phrase "punished" is being used is because Fred in his business vehicle can no longer afford to get his essential equipment to work, whereas Tracy in her private vehicle, who could easily use the tram or bus, can continue as normal.
That’s very nearly the dumbest thing I’ve ever read on this forum.
Nope .. what you just wrote possibly is. Why does this need to be done to (get STW) Farmer Johns?
A 5 mile / 15 min drive from somewhere like Chunal to Torside becomes a 50 mile 1h20 drive unless you pay the tax.
How does that *need" to be done? Very specifically for this route ... if there is no specific and valid reason for this specific route then it's bureaucrats flexing and not being arsed.
Imagine being a low paid dog walker or self employed care assistant, mobile physio .. not even living in Greater Manchester and telling customers who also don't live in greater manchester, "Sorry I can't take your business you any more ... "
or "I'm stuck at Torside I need a new tyre fitting can you come out" .. "Um sorry no, I'd have to pay the Manchester Tax" so that's another £100 I need to charge to cover my time and the £10.
You can be pretty certain that the council executive and the principal non elected officers will be personally making a mint out of this. They will have shares or own businesses to do the collections.. or be getting a skim off the top.
As pointed out a number of times, they hit the poorest the most. ‘Just add £10 a day on your daily bill to pay it’.
The whole idea of a "daily/monthly bill" is a horrific way to prevent them/us managing our own money.
It's not "a daily bill" so much as the idea of trying to break everything down into "per day" or "per month" with what seems like a fairly low number by itself but cumulatively becomes crippling.
(It's not like the same person/business doesn't have a stack of £10/d/month etc. bills already going out)
This applies the same to families and small businesses.
Lets be honest at least and just say this is a tax of £3600 a year...
Use public transport. Hmm, that’d be fine if buses ran 24hrs a day.
Yeah and I can just imagine someone dragging a car tyre and a compressor and tyre fitting machine on the bus
or a bike they are collecting to fix then optimising it by collecting 3 bikes whilst they are out. It's obviously not going to happen.
Your plumber turns up with a huge backpack .. doesn't have all the required correct parts so they jump on a bus???
I do agree that things should change, however the reason the phrase “punished” is being used is because Fred in his business vehicle can no longer afford to get his essential equipment to work, whereas Tracy in her private vehicle, who could easily use the tram or bus, can continue as normal.
This is a very valid point.
Think of an alternative.
Jesus wept, straight out the Vote Leave playbook that one.
Does it not cross your mind that perhaps the alternative doesn't exist and it's not the job of person B to solve Person A's piss poor planning?
But yeah, I'm sure you'll be alright.
I do agree that things should change, however the reason the phrase “punished” is being used is because Fred in his business vehicle can no longer afford to get his essential equipment to work, whereas Tracy in her private vehicle, who could easily use the tram or bus, can continue as normal.
You need to substitute "should" for "must".
Surely some of the cash raised by the charges in these zones will be directed towards public transport provision?
I live on a main road within the proposed Manchester zone and this morning the taste of fumes from cars was noticible whilst cycling to catch another form of public transport.
There are days at the moment where I need use my i.c.e vehicles to get to work. So hopefully at some point the public transport option will be both cheap and regular enough to be used?
Electric cars are still too pricey for my limited use, electric mopeds are very close to becoming a viable option. But it's there any point in spending a pile of cash on a emoped and insurance when a bus trip might only be £1.50?
I didn't smell any coal or multi fuel fires and I doubt I'd smell them during the summer months? I do own a modern log burner and have successfully reduced my gas usage by burning the 'ruf compressed wood briquettes'
Is like to see an improvement in both air quality and a reduction in short journey car use. I cycled past several cars parked up in timed bike lanes today, so maybe a few more wardens out there as well? 😃
Jesus wept, straight out the Vote Leave playbook that one.
Does it not cross your mind that perhaps the alternative doesn’t exist and it’s not the job of person B to solve Person A’s piss poor planning?
ignoring the vote leave weirdness of your reply, I don't get how person A's level of planning is responsible for the fact that person B and all the other persons driving fossil fuel-burning vehicles is causing dangerous levels of pollution in towns and cities.
https://www.iqair.com/us/uk/england/manchester
Handy tool.
I'll clarify that I agree air quality needs to improve, I just sometimes feel the local and national governments take the easiest cash rich option.
I'd be interested into knowing how many commercial property in the Greater Manchester area are heating with oil? And how that stacks up with the ppm from cars.
Also feel it should be banded like Germany. So high spots of pollution are under tighter control.
I just sometimes feel the local and national governments take the easiest cash rich option.
I agree - I'd much prefer an outright ban.
I’d be interested into knowing how many commercial property in the Greater Manchester area are heating with oil? And how that stacks up with the ppm from cars.
In Bristol, diesel vehicles are the dominant source of poor urban air quality. I'd be surprised if Manchester was different.
vThere was no way I could have done it on public transport, would have taken hours, 4 mile walk, 2 buses and the tram
Would it have worked if you could have driven to a big park-and-ride car park and taken the tram from there? I think that expecting people to use public transport all the way from their front door to their place of work is doomed to failure.
Park and ride with safe bike storage, plenty of parking spaces, good CCTV across the whole site, and reasonably priced and convenient public transport that gets priority* over cars is the only way it can work.
* so dedicated bus lanes that taxis can't use, traffic lights that change as buses and trams approach, sensible routes, short-cuts that cars can't use, etc etc. Trams / buses need to be clean, comfortable, and air-conditioned (year round, so cool in the summer and dry in the winter).
Good solution Flaperon.
There's a park and ride car park under the junction of M60 and A580 near the end of the M61 on the north side of Manchester. Been there maybe 4 years, and although I'm not past it every day I can't ever recall seeing a car parked in it.
Or increase her prices. People paying for her services need to pay for their share of the pollution.
And all her competitors will face the same problem. I doubt anyone picks a landscape gardner on £10/day difference.
Mixed feelings about these zones. As pointed out a number of times, they hit the poorest the most. ‘Just add £10 a day on your daily bill to pay it’. How does that work when you are on a hourly rate?
it doesn't but then people on an hourly rate set by an employer don't generally have to drive a heavily poluting van!
The Employers wont be interested in £2.5k pay rise for you.
Well, if it eventually becomes all vehicles employers WILL start to think about it - because getting staff will be harder. That might mean relocating offices, enabling even more WFH, subsiding transport or pay increases to compete.
Use public transport. Hmm, that’d be fine if buses ran 24hrs a day.
Its a chicken and egg thing though - part of the reason buses don't run 24 h is there isn't demand.
Why wait in a bus stop for 10 mins, when it wont take much more than that to actually drive into town?
1. You are timing it wrong if you have to wait 10 mins.
2. If the drive into town (and find parking) is only 10 mins you probably aren't the typical P&R user (either time of day, location you are going etc)
3. Is the bus itself not travelling faster than cars with bus lanes etc?
Town centres are dying, so why do all the buses go to the centre, when the shopping is now on the outskirts?
Its a hub and spoke type model insn't it? Probably are busses to the major out of town retain parks, but they start in the centre. But is that why town centres are dying or is it online shopping?
As for air quality, isnt it the best it has been for 50+ years?
Possibly (I don't know but I'll take your word for it) but I'd expect infant mortality has probably been falling for 50 yrs too but nobody would suggest we shouldn't bother with improvements that would make it better still. Air pollution is associated with 40,000 deaths a year in the UK. So over the course of the decade potentially more than Covid - and we basically shut the country to sort that out!
@terrahawk
Yep, a ban is best for air quality.
Political suicide for the party that suggests it though. How likely is it that a councillor will suggest something that will cut off their supply of money and prestige?
That’s the problem, those that have the power to make the big changes are the ones that benefit from things not changing.
I don’t see a way out of that situation.
One other question. And if its been asked or stated sorry...
Have they said how much the charge will reduce the levels?
I like the German model where its zoned, its been in force for years and has had a steady roll out and requirements changed and tightened up progressively.
I remember being in bremem 10yrs ago and we had to park up and get on a tram as Olafs car wasn't new enough to be allowed in that suburb. Thing was there was good transport links and infrastructure so it didn't actually inconvenience any one much.
Obviously we're crap and are so far behind and our public transport systems are needing a huge overhall that's not HS2.
We punch through schemes like this that just seem to split people. I don't think anyone disagrees with the goals or I'd hope not.
ignoring the vote leave weirdness of your reply, I don’t get how person A’s level of planning is responsible for the fact that person B and all the other persons driving fossil fuel-burning vehicles is causing dangerous levels of pollution in towns and cities.
Because person A (vote leave) set in motion a proposal that they had no intention or plan to make work so left it to person B (successive government administrations) to sort out leading to the bit of a mess we see today.
A bit like banning whole sections of commercial or commuter traffic (stick) with no with no practical alternative (carrot) in place.
Meanwhile everyone within the pollution zone is left with the trade and commercial service provision of a rural area but with several times the population density.
Your proposal sounds good if you don't actually think about the implications for more than a split second but in reality is utterly rubbish.
I've actually studied this stuff and it's well established that you need the solutions in place before the fact as it just won't work otherwise. I'm not saying we shouldn't be doing something about air quality, quite the opposite, but your solution is actually just a bigger problem.
1. You are timing it wrong if you have to wait 10 mins.
Assuming you've never used the bus services in somewhere like Glasgow which run in a +/- 10 mins/maybe never basis.
Isn't Manchester city council putting a huge sum of cash on the table to reduce the cost of switching from petrol/diesel vehicles to greener options for businesses in the area?
On a different note I wonder if there will be any cameras between my house and the nearest supermarket when the inclusion of polluting vehicles includes private cars? Not a huge distance involved and I only go once a week, I could walk and use my IKEA trailer but sometimes time is at a premium. 🤔
I could walk and use my IKEA trailer but sometimes time is at a premium.
Ah, here's the root of the problem! Everyone's time is at a premium, it's just that sitting in a car in a jam with the engine running belting out pollution is seen as an acceptable way to spend some of that premium time.
I only ever go shopping off peak. Late evening after the traffic has gone. The advent of later trading hours made it possible.
Poly
And all her competitors will face the same problem. I doubt anyone picks a landscape gardner on £10/day difference.
No they don't ... it might superficially seem like that unless you actually do this like squirrelking which is what makes it so nasty because it will put some people out of business.
It's essentially a postcode lottery for small businesses.
Just take the example I used earlier...(in which neither customer nor service provider lives in Greater Manchester) but the service provider is now unable business in many areas that are not even in Greater Manchester either.
Currently A 5 mile / 15 min drive from somewhere like Chunal to Torside becomes a 50 mile 1h20 drive unless you pay the tax.
Lets illustrate it a bit STW ... someone lives in Hebden Bridge or Tod and services bikes for a living.
Get a map and draw a circle ...
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Greater+Manchester/@53.5061807,-2.6002469,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x487ba654d3882eb1:0x2cc7d82221c68081!8m2!3d53.4575955!4d-2.1578377
Or take John (whomever the Hive assigned the ladder) ... lets say they live somewhere outside Rawtenstall. Their market for Ramsbottom and Bury has gone so the need to compete in Burnley and Blackburn...
It's no longer viable for them to collect bikes from Littleborough or Rochdale so now they are competing with bike service companies in Halifax and Possibly Huddersfield.
Or take this business (Animal behaviour trainer)
Yellow Gate, A624, Chunal, Glossop SK13 6JY
They don't even live in Greater Manchester but to get to Torside etc. they have to either drive through or a 50 mile+ journey.
They are being put out of business to clean up the air quality HERE
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4791004,-1.91438,3a,75y,280.01h,93.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sql9GHW7eYdXzGzPHPOxN5g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Isn’t Manchester city council putting a huge sum of cash on the table to reduce the cost of switching from petrol/diesel vehicles to greener options for businesses in the area?
What £3500 toward a 20-30k+ vehicle assuming you have that amount of money spare, can remortgage your house, assuming you own one! or are able to access appropriate levels of credit. It's easy on a MP's salary, CEO of Ford or when you're King of the North.
All of these things are subject to terms. The government backed loans are subject to a bidding process i.e. some will lose out, they don't just hand it out willy nilly to everyone like many imply.
Oh and you get to sell your current vehicle at knock down prices and buy at the highest prices.
And the government have enjoyed approximately 10 years worth of banded tax revenue, when alternatives were prohibitively expensive and in the case of vans and heavier vehicles not even available to buy.
How they have got away with extending it to the administrative area of Greater Manchester as opposed to city centres like all the other schemes. It covers areas which are semi-rural into Cheshire stopping at Derbyshire that don't suffer from city centre traffic problems.
There’s a park and ride car park under the junction of M60 and A580 near the end of the M61 on the north side of Manchester. Been there maybe 4 years, and although I’m not past it every day I can’t ever recall seeing a car parked in it.
Apart from every day where there’s definitely cars parked there, today included when I drove past. Admittedly it’s quieter post lockdown, but it is getting busier.
How they have got away with extending it to the administrative area of Greater Manchester as opposed to city centres like all the other schemes. It covers areas which are semi-rural into Cheshire stopping at Derbyshire that don’t suffer from city centre traffic problems.
It covers many rural areas and also cuts off many that are outside Greater Manchester.
Some are cut off completely, it's impossible to get in or out with ANY vehicle whilst others it turns a 5-10 minute drive into one of hours.
Big Win for GM as it can now TAX people who don't even live inside it's borders, merely need to cross a hundred meters of open moorland to get from part of their farm to another.