Making wills / what happens to money without one?

Yes. Just ask him.

He's given you a list of accounts, it's a tiny baby step to say "you know I've got this list of accounts in case of your death, where would I find your will?"

Yeah, I'd say it shouldn't feel wrong - ultimately by asking you'll be helping him make sure his estate goes where he wants it to.

Its explained well here:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/family/death-and-wills/who-can-inherit-if-there-is-no-will-the-rules-of-intestacy/

But if you are close enough for him to share details of his savings account, surely you are close enough to ask about his will.

*looks out for OP posting "new patio" thread.....

Yes as above. A Will will make life so much easier when the time comes, and he may want to leave specific items to individuals or make bequeathments to charities etc.

If it's difficult say "I'm doing my will, where did you get yours done?" Or similar to break the ice.

Also is he in England? Or Scotland? Could make a significant difference should he die intestate

"I'm making my own will to make sure my kids/nieces/nephews are provided for after I die, but it would help to know if you're doing the same"

Thank you (esp. franksinatra) - I have just read through the article and people related by marriage cannot inherit money in the absence of a will (ie, my wife wouldn't inherit anything if I've already died and he's close to her too) - I'd assume that, in that case, any other surviving siblings would get the whole lot rather than it be shared between nieces and nephews. I think I need to have a word with him as I am sure he wouldn't want that to happen – I don't care about the money myself, but I'd hate to think my kids miss out simply because he hadn't thought about the possible scenarios where they could miss out.

sounds odd that someone with the wherewithal to own houses and savings accounts worth >£1M wouldn't have written a will, but it could happen. Ask him, either where it is or get him to do one.

sounds odd that someone with the wherewithal to own houses and savings accounts worth >£1M wouldn’t have written a will, but it could happen.

He may well have done so but he didn't mention it when he told me about his savings/pensions etc. I guess I should have asked him then (it was a few years ago).

Ask him. You don’t mention age, but you might  also think about Lasting Power of Attorney. He’s already given you a list of his accounts. In the event of incapacitation, we’d all want someone to look after our concerns. I’d bridge both situations with him before the inevitable happens. Because it could be a lot more complex when it does.

What can happen is an absolute shit show of falling out, arguments and upset.

I know of a bloke who died sadly young who owned his property, had a long standing but unmarried partner and 2 grown up kids. It really looked for a while that the partner was going to be turfed out of her home because the kids wanted to sell it and didn't really have much concern for her. Now that's an extreme example, but circumstances change and people can become all sorts of greedy over a potentially large inheritance.

Ask him, (as stated).

What can happen is an absolute shit show of falling out, arguments and upset.

I know of a bloke who died sadly young who owned his property, had a long standing but unmarried partner and 2 grown up kids.

That won't be a concern - we are a close family and I don't have a moment of doubt that things would be entirely amicable in the event (and he has no exes, skeletons etc to be concerned about - he's never even had a long-term relationship).

Ask him. You don’t mention age, but you might also think about Lasting Power of Attorney.

He's not at an age where we are imminently concerned, but we are all getting a bit older and starting to see older-age and the increased risk of ill-health on the horizon.

Regarding the asking about a will – I really can't put my finger on it but I think it basically comes down to me not wanting to sound like I am being greedy or expecting anything (which I am not) and I'd hate for him to feel like he is in a position where he feels like he has to tell us any detailed information about any such will that may be in existence. Funnily enough, he knows we have a will and knows the basic details of it (he gets very little as we have our own children to think of).

In the absence of a will, intestacy rules apply.

https://www.gov.uk/inherits-someone-dies-without-will

It might be he's happy with that.. But if he's worth circa a million quid of be supprised if he at least doesn't have one or two personal preferences as to how that goes down.

Also a properly drawn up will is very good value... It might cost you four or five hundred quid but it will prevent some bitter arguments for people fighting over the estate in the event of no will.

Kind of a drop in the ocean if the estate is worth a fair chunk..

Worst case scenario is the estate gets bankrupted from legal fees if there's a lot of contention from various different parties.

So to me, making a will is not just choosing who gets what, it makes things a million times easier for whoever has to be executor/clean up the financial mess/family feuds upon death.

A well written will is pretty much uncontestable.

No will at all! is a recipe for a royal rumble cage fight.

No will at all is a recipe for a royal rumble cage fight.

I honestly, honestly do not think that would ever happen. As said before, we are a close family and he only has two siblings or, in the event of either/both of our deaths, four nieces/nephews to inherit it (and it's two nieces/nephews each per sibling too so very easy to share it out).

OK.. So say one of your nieces/nephews was to die.

Assuming there are 4, 2 on each side.

Would he then want it split 33% each between the remaining 3, or would one get 50% and the other two 25% each?

It's a grim thing to talk about so please excuse my frank language.

As mentioned above make sure the POA is sorted too, if not already. That really is a sh1t show when the chips are down eg has stroke / can't communicate - who can make care decisions etc.

OK.. So say one of your nieces/nephews was to die.

Assuming there are 4, 2 on each side.

Would he then want it split 33% each between the remaining 3, or would one get 50% and the other two 25% each?

It’s a grim thing to talk about so please excuse my frank language.

I assume if he died intestate, that one would get 50% and the other two 25% each? If so then I'd say that is fair and probably how he'd want it to be shared - however it is a very good point as he may not want that to happen.

I guess the same could be said for if one of his siblings died (ie, if I die, does my wife or our two children get the 50% or would 100% of it go to my sibling)?

I have to say that you should never assume anything or imagine that family or otherwise will be amicable. History unfortunately tells us that it's simply not the case

I worked many moons ago as an executor for a high street bank. There is potential for no end of difficulty dealing with the deceased's estate.

Who gets the car? Who gets the picture? Who gets the house? What about the old friend who was promised the motorcycle? The list is endless

Tldr - get a will

have you and partner a will in place, if not get one done then tell your brother you have done a will, does he want a bike or anything.. then ask him if he has done a will :0)

<span style="caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji';">sounds odd that someone with the wherewithal to own houses and savings accounts worth >£1M wouldn’t have written a will</span>

Actually it sounds extremely common. Roughly half of all people have wills, though hopefully the proportion who die intestate is significantly lower than that.

As others have said, dying intestate can be a complete shitshow, though in some cases it may merely be inconvenient and troublesome. There are rules, which differ between Scotland and the rest of the UK, which govern the outcome, and if no sufficiently close relatives can be found, the govt gets it.

That won’t be a concern – we are a close family and I don’t have a moment of doubt that things would be entirely amicable in the event (and he has no exes, skeletons etc to be concerned about – he’s never even had a long-term relationship).

But...

I assume if he died intestate, that one would get 50% and the other two 25% each? If so then I’d say that is fair and probably how he’d want it to be shared – however it is a very good point as he may not want that to happen.

I guess the same could be said for if one of his siblings died (ie, if I die, does my wife or our two children get the 50% or would 100% of it go to my sibling)?

This is exactly how the falling out would start. I 'think' in the latter scenario your wife would get nothing. I also think that nieces and nephews, with their parents surviving or not get nothing if no will exists, unless one of them is already under some kind of guardianship arrangement. But this is the point, it's how I think things work, but as I don't know I have a will that states my wishes.

I don't know why this is a difficult thing to discuss really, all seems entirely practical to me.

I also think that nieces and nephews, with their parents surviving or not get nothing if no will exists

The way I have now interpreted it, nieces and nephews get their share if the direct relation to the intestate has died (ie, my kids would get their share if I was to die but my wife would get nothing as she is not a direct relation).

I don’t know why this is a difficult thing to discuss really, all seems entirely practical to me.

As I tried to say earlier, I am just not wanting to sound greedy or have him think I am expecting anything. I know that perhaps I shouldn't feel like this but I do.

It is a really awkward conversation regardless, not just for you. Don't worry.

Asking parents if they have a preferred care home etc. By dropping it into conversation doesn't go down well either.

sounds odd that someone with the wherewithal to own houses and savings accounts worth >£1M wouldn’t have written a will

My assets aren't that big, but I don't have a will. I've a wife and 2 kids, and reading the interstacy rules, they'd suit me just fine. I've also got both parents and a couple of siblings, so if we all got wiped out by a truck, it'd go to my parents (that's fine) and if they were dead to it'd go to my siblings (that's fine too). if we're all dead I couldn't care less who gets it, there's probably bigger issues in the world.

My assets aren’t that big, but I don’t have a will. I’ve a wife and 2 kids, and reading the interstacy rules, they’d suit me just fine. I’ve also got both parents and a couple of siblings, so if we all got wiped out by a truck, it’d go to my parents (that’s fine) and if they were dead to it’d go to my siblings (that’s fine too). if we’re all dead I couldn’t care less who gets it, there’s probably bigger issues in the world.

In your case you really *SHOULD* have a will - what if you were to all be in that truck accident and your two kids survived (assuming they are under 18) but you and your wife died - what happens to the kids? Who would be their legal guardians? My brother's situation is, I think, significantly less complicated than yours! (We had a will made out not long after our kids were born).

Yeah, one thing I made sure of was that my mate who died of cancer last year made a will whilst still in good health, no need to know what's in it (I didn't find out till after he'd died), best of luck with it, if he can take good legal advice and make a will there is no need for you to know anything more so don't be shy about it. If he does say he wants so & so to have this that & the other of his possessions make sure he puts it in a codicil too - saves a lot of bother.

sounds odd that someone with the wherewithal to own houses and savings accounts worth >£1M wouldn’t have written a will, but it could happen. Ask him, either where it is or get him to do one.

I think many people mistakenly think that it all just gets sorted out by the 'system' and don't really need one, not realising that 'sorted' out might be far from what they expected to happen.

Can I just please say that people are depressingly predictable when money is involved. Even if you feel certain that they won’t be at this point. In my expérience, money makes people and relationships very quickly regress beyond the point that you ever thought they would.

When my dad shuffled off at the end of 2019, mum having died years earlier, my brother approached the solicitor in Redcar where the wills were lodged and they denied all knowledge of having them or even them being clients. It was only when we got back to them with some old paperwork which happened to have box numbers and their old correspondence with my parents that they went and had a proper look and retrieved the registered copies. Admittedly they were made in the 90s before proper office automation, but keep copies of the solicitor's stuff, loads of legal firms close or get taken over or merged. There will be a successor firm which takes things over, but keeping copies at your end definitely helps.

I think many people mistakenly think that it all just gets sorted out by the ‘system’ and don’t really need one, not realising that ‘sorted’ out might be far from what they expected to happen.

I agree, but I'd also suggest that someone who's switched on to own that much in estate and savings isn't the kind of person to be unaware.

Is it possible that he has a will but doesn't want it known before because he's left it all to Colin who none of you know about (joke - but maybe left to a charity, or he just doesn't want it known and discussed beforehand, but has his will lodged at a solicitors or whatever)  Still worth asking - if the answer is 'yes, all taken care of' go no further, if 'no, I really ought to' then it's been a useful conversation either way.

So now to the difficult but most salient point.

he has no exes, skeletons etc to be concerned about – he’s never even had a long-term relationship

and

My brother is comfortably-off (owns his own house outright, has a decent amount of savings etc – it all probably amounts to something like £1m)

whereas I have a wife, 2 kids, a dog, and haven't got 2 beans to rub together; even the jeans I'm wearing were bought on the never never.

What have we learned today.......?

What have we learned today…….?

1. Life isn't fair.

2. Some people don't have wills.

3. The Brits are crap at talking about death or money or both.

4. Either kids or dogs are very expensive, or possibly both?

Can I just please say that people are depressingly predictable when money is involved. Even if you feel certain that they won’t be at this point. In my expérience, money makes people and relationships very quickly regress beyond the point that you ever thought they would.

This is the truth. Having seen it from the professional side, I have witnessed the most incredible and unimaginable behavior, even, for example, blood relatives attempting to pass themselves off as another family member who was a bona fide beneficiary.

Even as someone involved in executorship professionally, when my partner and I made our wills, what we thought we thought was straight forward had significant implications that we were unaware of until it was discussed with a solicitor.

From memory we paid £350 for two wills, and some extensive legal advice that was pivotal

Re: family relationships

When my unmarried aunt died she left her estate equally to her eight nieces and nephews. Just before she died she verbally expressed a wish to add her brother, my uncle and father to three of the cousins, to the list so making nine equal beneficiaries.

When my brother and I went to see the solicitors she had appointed as executors her very first question was ‘ how well do your family get on?’ The implication was it would be very difficult to sort out my aunt’s wishes.

I couldn’t have been prouder of my family when we all without hesitation agreed to a deed of variation for my uncle. The solicitor was astonished when we let her know within two days.

Can I just please say that people are depressingly predictable when money is involved. Even if you feel certain that they won’t be at this point

seriously, I absolutely trust my family - despite how many times people are trying to argue otherwise, I do not believe for a second that there would ever be any conflict over money.

I say again, I trust my family completely.

It must be horrible to be in a place where you can’t.

All I was ever trying to understand from the OP was - in the absence of a will, would his estate end up in the hands of the Crown given our circumstances and, if so, does he need a will.

The way I have now interpreted it, nieces and nephews get their share if the direct relation to the intestate has died (ie, my kids would get their share if I was to die but my wife would get nothing

Wrong.

With no will, your wife would get everything.

If she was to re marry then your children could potentially get nothing depending on your wife's will, or lack of.

Seriously.. Just get a will written up by a solicitor. Do it jointly with your wife or whatever, but for the sake of a couple of hundred quid it's well worth doing.

Mattyfez - read the thread, you have completely misunderstood it. It’s nothing to do with me and any will I have.

He may well have done so but he didn’t mention it when he told me about his savings/pensions etc.

If he's fine with discussing that with you I can't see how talking about a will is going to cause a problem, maybe don't hand him a glass of red wine in a 'I need to make sure I give him the right glass' sort of way as you broach the subject...

I couldn’t have been prouder of my family when we all without hesitation agreed to a deed of variation for my uncle. The solicitor was astonished when we let her know within two days.

If everyone is in tantamount agreement there should be no need to spend £££ on a deed of variation, just divvy the money up as per will & then pay out to whoever extra you want as gifts, (although that could have inheritance tax implications on the gift if a beneficiary then passes away). That's what we did with my dad's will (5 siblings) & 2 of the beneficiaries were going to do with my friends will.

My pennyworth - if you've any dependents you care about and you don't have a will, you really don't GAS about them.

For the OP, just ask, actually, demand he makes a Will if he hasn't already - if only to make your life (or whoever has to deal with his death) easier & cheaper.

if you’ve any dependents you care about and you don’t have a will, you really don’t GAS about them.

I would say this is rubbish. My wife and I have no wills like 40-50% of the UK population, 3 kids (now grown up), assets I would estimate >£2m. If you're saying I don't GAS about my family you are very wrong.

My experience of someone dying without a will is.... it's quite burdensome for whoever has to sort it all out. My Aunty died without one. To get everything through probate I had to identify and track down her seven brothers and sisters, alive and dead, find original copies of birth, marriage and death certificates for both her parents, find even living and dead descendant of any of her deceased siblings prove they were alive or dead and their relation and so on. Probate can't be resolved until everyone who could possibly have a claim has been identified and their relationship and being either living or dead has been confirmed

Took me over a year and cost thousands of pounds. A page of A4 could have saved me all that trouble. The people closest to her were in no position to either take on the probate responsibilities or to benefit from it even through they were the people she'd actually share her life with. So part of the challenge for me was to instigate a conversation between dozens  of people who are related but barely know each other (or even knew of each other) about how we might collectively share their various portions of her estate with the people she actually knew and loved.

As said will just makes everything much simpler and cheaper for those who have to sort out the mess when you die. No ambiguity.

For the sake of one meeting with a solicitor and a couple of hundred quid.

I can understand the case where someone simply hasn't thought about it, or else when they have such an extremely simple case (no dependents) that they can legitimately not give a shit, but for someone (upthread) with a wife and children, to think about it, and decide "nah can't be bothered, it will probably be fine" beggars belief.

And I'll just repeat the importance of PoA as well - having seen what MrsMC and her brothers had to go through when her mum lost capacity and had to go into a home which needed to be paid for, but they couldn’t access her money

This applies to any of us, at any age. That car that just clips you and leaves you with lifechanging injuries - can your family access the funds held in your name to keep a roof over their head?

Yes, our PoAs came through recently (though no intention of using any time soon), and my wife is now making some limited use of her father's due to his encroaching dementia. That's a one-way ride of course.

<span style="color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji'; background-color: #eeeeee;">I would say this is rubbish. My wife and I have no wills like 40-50% of the UK population, 3 kids (now grown up), assets I would estimate >£2m. If you’re saying I don’t GAS about my family you are very wrong.</span>

db - nope, I'm not, just get Wills made FFS