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Who is paying for all the investigation work ?
It is of course worth every penny it costs (just in case anyone accuses me of saying its not!) but how is it determined what gets spent on each case ?
Surely other families who have suffered this awful nightmare must be thinking this amount hasn't been spent on our case...
play nice...
We are. They obviously have powerful friends. How else does one explain the fact that two health care professionals who leave three very young children (which, as any health care professional should know, are in a high risk category) unsupervised in unfamiliar surroundings, are still allowed to practice in health care? Would YOU trust either of their judgement's? 😯
Oooh, I can't see this thread lasting too long....
Surely other families who have suffered this awful nightmare must be thinking this amount hasn't been spent on our case...
how do you know what has or hasn't been spent on other cases?
how do you know what has or hasn't been spent on other cases?
I don't and nor do you ! But I'm guessing its far more than any other case recently...but as you say none of us really know whats been spent...
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/10122377/Home-Office-to-fund-Met-Police-investigation-into-Madeleine-McCann-disappearance.html ] well over £5m so far [/url]
Actually, its only recently that Scotland Yard has picked this up and up until then they were funding the private investigations themselves. I think kids are at risk in many places these days. What about that poor girl in Wales taken from right outside her own house when playing out with friends? What about Jamie Bulger snatched literally from under his mums nose? We're their parents negligent? I let my kids play out in front of our house so in theory am running the a similar risk - am I supposed to lock them up indoors 24/7? I've been in a hotel before at a friends wedding and left my daughter in the room with a baby monitor while we were out of the room. It was before the Madeline case so not sure i'd do it again, but we didn't think anything of it at the time. I'm sure there is not a day goes by that they don't kick themselves about it and regret their actions. I wonder if people would have been as critical and unsympathetic if they were some poor people off a council estate holidaying at Butlins and not wealthy doctors holidaying at a luxury apartment complex?
I wonder if people would have been as critical and unsympathetic if they were some poor people off a council estate holidaying at Butlins and not wealthy doctors holidaying at a luxury apartment complex?
I winder if it would have got more than a passing mention on the news if it hadn't been a middle class blond haired blue eyed girl who was the victim.
Quite
[quote=MSP ] I winder if it would have got more than a passing mention on the news if it hadn't been a middle class blond haired blue eyed girl who was the victim.
+1
I'm still amazed they weren't charged with child neglect. Regardless of who killed/abducted their daughter, they are firmly to blame.
These parents have lost kids too.
Through no fault of their own.
And they're not highly paid doctors with friends in high places.
Very sad.
We're ramping up to [b]FULL-ON OUTRAGE[/b] then?
Who are you blaming for the cost of the investigation?
Them? That seems harsh.
Scotland Yard - for funding a search for a missing child?
Hard working families?
Who?
Some pretty poor stuff allready
Regardless of who killed/abducted their daughter, they are firmly to blame.
Is this true for all victims of crime?
Perhaps i should just punch you in the face for that comment and then blame you?
Of all the subjects to troll on - keep it for MLEH eh?
I would imagine lots of parents have done something similar - clearly it is ill advised but blaming them rather than the perpetrator is pretty crass - they clearly have some responsibility but they are not to blame
The people to blame haven't been found. It's human nature to want to focus the blame on someone/thing even if it isn't rationally correct.
Maybe we should stop this thread.
Nothing positive will come from it.
I see we've had the chippy class comments already. Good start, folks...
FFS.
I think kids are at risk in many places these days.
Yes, and very few of those risks are from a random stranger snatching them - kids are at risk from motor vehicles, obesity, and sadly quite often their own parents.
These cases get so much attention precisely because they're so rare.
These cases get so much attention precisely because they're so rare.
This, my Missus gets quite upset when I say that statistically her and the kids are more at risk from me than any "stranger danger" out on the streets. But it's true.
I forget the name of the psychological effect, but it's to do with risk perception. It's related to the way that 75%* of car drivers say they're better than average.
We are good parents, so even though statistically kids are most at risk of being abused by a family member, we know we won't abuse our kids - so we worry about strangers instead.
*can't remember the number, but it is significantly greater than 50%.
These cases get so much attention precisely because they're so rare.
Not that rare, according to this.
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/oct/04/child-abduction-statistics-england-wales
Certainly not just the 1 case that would appear to be from the coverage this case generates.
According to radio5 this morning it's the home office, put in place by david cameron.
Are the McCanns still represented by Max Clifford?? ❓
Hmmmm.. he has questions to answer himself it seems... 😉
Would YOU trust either of their judgement's?
Yes.
Do you have any other really difficult questions ?
I'm on a roll. That one felt easy !
What wobbliscott said.
I've left my daughter alone in a hotel room before. And will do again.
Even at home she sleeps on her own, in her own room, and I don't even put a u-lock on her. 🙂
Such things used to be common practise before the Great Paedo Threat.
If folk think that qualifies as "child neglect" then they seriously need to open their eyes a bit!
What wobbliscott said.I've left my daughter alone in a hotel room before. And will do again.
I might be rembering incorrectly, but were't they quite some distance from the apartment complex in a totally seperate resturant. No possiablity for a child monitor or hotel reception monitoring. Also wasn't there some suspicion that some sort of sedative had been give to all of the children?
If I've remembered wrong or believed tabloid gossip please excuse me but it's not quite the same thing as having a meal in the hotel resturant/bar with a baby monitor. Which I too have done.
were't they quite some distance from the apartment complex in a totally seperate resturant
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Madeleine_McCann ]According to Wikipedia[/url] they were about 50 metres away and they checked on the kids regularly.
- so not really [i]that[/i] much different to hotel room to lobby, or child's bedroom to BBQ in the garden.
wasn't there some suspicion that some sort of sedative had been give to all of the children?
There were "suspicions" about all kinds of things (some of which are still causing people to be sued for damages). Wiki says forensic tests found no evidence of sedatives in the twins.
The only person to blame for her disappearance is the person or persons who abducted her. Whether you're happy to leave your kids alone in a room and how far away you're happy to be is entirely your choice. Should you be the highly statistically unlikely parent who has a child abducted by a stranger, the fact that you weren't in the room when it happened will be punishment enough for you for the rest of your life.
Kate McCann often came across as cold and emotionless in the months subsequent to Madeleine being abducted during media interviews and this has coloured many people's views of them as a couple.
A huge amount of money has been invested in private investigations by the family and this has been raised by them in whatever way they've managed. I assume that with their level of education and background, they've possibly had more resources to call on to enable them to raise this money. I assume polis are obliged to look into the no doubt tomes of information that has been passed to them from investigators.
Saying they are "firmly to blame" is plain and simply wrong. I notice druidh hasn't hung around to defend the statement so I can only assume he's trolling, and in pretty poor taste.
+1 the above 2 posters (and JY)
Might as well condemn any parent who has been on a Mark Warner holiday. What the McCanns did is standard practice and the fact that MW staff patrol the corridors and the grounds during dinner is a reason why parents with young kids chose their holidays. I am as guilty and irresponsible as they are but, thank god, a lot more fortunate.
Might as well condemn any parent who has been on a Mark Warner holiday
thm, that goes without saying anyway. 🙂
/chipper
/sidetrack/ Oy, get back in the pool DD or have you done your tri? (just sneaked in a 2.5m session over lunch) /sidetrack/
It's got nothing to do with the risk of abduction but I wouldn't ever do what they have done.
It's bad enough if I am in the garage attached to our house and our eldest wakes up because of a nightmare and maybe it takes me a few minutes to hear him screaming.
I won't judge the McCanns. They don't need anyone to stand in judgement on them. They have after all lost their daughter and that's hell enough without anyone passing comment.
Scotland Yard have 'substantive new information' which is why they are picking this up again. W
I agree with DD.
😯
😡
I'll pay!
I remember when madeleine mccann weint missing, they took down missing person posters in glasgow to put up posters of her... And I'm talking here about replacing a sign with a load of people's faces on, with just one kid, who'd gone missing in a different country.... Because one of them was young and pretty and in the news, and the others weren't. I've no idea if that was commonplace but there's no doubt that some missing people and missing kids get looked for harder than others.
A blonde photogenic middle-class girl gets more coverage. Aye, it's unfair, no doubt about that. But I don't think we can lay that at the McCanns feet, nor blame them for doing everything they can to keep the focus on their little girl even at the expense of others.
I would. 🙁
Class is irrelevant here.
Not sure we could describe April Jones and her family as "rich" or "middle class" etc. and yet what happened to her was equally horrific. (Oddly, somehow it affected me more than normal, given [i]where[/i] it happened. Have had so many lovely, happy weekends in Mach. 🙁 )
And my brother-in-Law and his family are just up the road in Tywyn. Moved from a city centre to bring up their young children in a rural idyll.
[url= http://www.theonion.com/articles/ugly-girl-killed,988/ ]http://www.theonion.com/articles/ugly-girl-killed,988/[/url]
Class is irrelevant here.
Morally class is completely irrelevant. In terms of publicity and getting the media, officialdom, etc, to champion your cause, it's hugely relevant.
I have no doubt that if the McCanns had issues in other areas of society, eg, healthcare disputes or legal disputes, they would have big advantages over less educated people lower down the social classes.
BTW I find the constant and baseless vilification of the McCanns quite disgusting.
What is troubling about the media coverage though, is does it push investigation in certain directions, and constrain those investigations in other areas.
It is a horrible thin line in cases like this for the police to treat the parents as victims, while also realising that they are statistically quite likely to be the strong suspects. And I don't think that the media's bias to white middle class families helps the police do their jobs.
Someone said earlier that they thought the mother appeared cold, I didn't read her like that at the time, to me she looked like someone with a thousand mile stare, just barely being able to keep control, who probably just wanted to crawl into a corner, roll up in a ball and cry forever.
The fact is the Police have a budget like everyone else. How much is spent us relevant and the Police have a very difficult job deciding how and where the money is spent.
The McCans have to live with the fact they left their daughter alone, that's a hefty burden for any parent to bear.
Someone said earlier that they thought the mother appeared cold, I didn't read her like that at the time, to me she looked like someone with a thousand mile stare, just barely being able to keep control, who probably just wanted to crawl into a corner, roll up in a ball and cry forever.
That was me. I have no doubt she isn't cold or emotionless at all. It was how she came across to some people (I always wondered if she'd been advised how to act) which didn't exactly endear her to those who couldn't see past it.
The people who have paid for this, in a monetary sense, are the residents and business owners of praia du luz.
It is a horrible thin line in cases like this for the police to treat the parents as victims, while also realising that they are statistically quite likely to be the strong suspects.
The ugliest truth is that certain sections of the media will have covered this story specifically because they thought it would turn out to be another "the parents did it" story, which always sells papers 🙁
The ugliest truth is that certain sections of the media will have covered this story specifically because they thought it would turn out to be another "the parents did it" story, which always sells papers
In this case though, I think the media coverage forced the police to not fully investigate that possibility. iirc the local police were lambasted for even considering it, and the officer who wanted to peruse that line of enquiry was forced off the case.
I also remember the media were very ready to convict the man who lived with his mother, as they were in that Bristol murder ready to convict the landlord with the "wild" hair.
Now, this is very much a wider point I am trying to make, because I do believe (99%)that the McCann's are victims. But I also believe that media coverage affected(hampered) the investigation, and that not all possibilities were fully investigated because of it.
Let's not forget that the media, as ever, presented the "foreign" police as just a bunch of bumbling amateur idiots who couldn't begin to investigate a crime to our high standards.
The mcann's do not deserve any of the blame they are the victims of an horrendous crime . The media decided to turn on them and alter the way they presented them as the story was starting to run out of steam which coincided with the Mcann's increasing reluctance to dance to certain papers tune . The tabloid rules are play our way or we burn you hence the speculation / fantsy stories about sedatives etc.
I do not begrudge a penny spent on a hunt to find a missing child or their abductor . Surprised anyone would.
The media haven't turned on the McCann's
There is, unfortunately, equally harrowing and terrible stories that the media haven't reported because the victims don't meet the correct target profile.
crankboy - MemberI do not begrudge a penny spent on a hunt to find a missing child or their abductor . Surprised anyone would.
That's only one way to look at it- the other is saying "Why this child and not another".
That's only one way to look at it- the other is saying "Why this child and not another".
I don't feel they're mutually exclusive views.
People forget that roughly the same time as Madeline went missing (just after in fact) a young black mother who was on holiday in Ibiza (I think) did leave her toddler home alone in the apartment and she was charged with neglect of some kind.
From memory the Daily **** was not too sympathetic to her cause - all her fault, terrible mother etc and the police were waiting for her return to the UK.
She pointed out this wasn't quite the reaction those nice, reasonable middle class McCann's got...
If you can't see the difference between going on holidays and leaving your toddler at home and going a minute's walk away and having dinner...
The media haven't turned on the McCann's
I think they would disagree with you as would the fact they won libel damages against a number of news papers who also published her personal diaries.
Its wirth noting they testified against the press at Leveson
Lord Justice Leveson told the inquiry the newspaper[express] had published "complete piffle" about Madeleine's disappearance.[131]The Daily Star (another Express Group newspaper) published a headline that the McCanns had sold Madeleine: "Maddie 'Sold' By Hard-Up McCanns".[132] Other headlines included "DNA puts parents in frame: British experts insist their tests are valid," [ this was a lie as there was no DNA evidence to link them] and "Parents' car hid a corpse [also no evidence of this despite testing]
What more evidence would you require to reconsider your viewpoint?
There is, unfortunately, equally harrowing and terrible stories that the media haven't reported because the victims don't meet the correct target profile.
Harrowing and terrible stories always get reported. The media seeks them out irrespective of the victim's profile.
The Madeline McCann's case has had more coverage than most for a variety of reasons, including the fact that her parent's have skilfully maintained that her case remains in the media spotlight.
I don't feel they're mutually exclusive views.
But as someone posted earlier, in Glasgow, posters of locally missing children were torn down to be replaced by the pictures of a child that had gone missing in another country away. Are those parents any less worthy?
Are those parents any less worthy?
I don't know why you're asking me tbh. (or maybe you're not.)
What more evidence would you require to reconsider your viewpoint?
More than a single anomaly, rather than the mass of publicised reports.
in Glasgow, posters of locally missing children were torn down to be replaced by the pictures of a child that had gone missing in another country
That claim probably probably needs some evidence to back it up. And an explanation why there was apparently limited space.
More than a single anomaly, rather than the mass of publicised reports.
I am not entirely sure what that reply means - could you clarify?
It seems clear the evidence does not support your claim they did not turn on them. Unless of course you wish to argue that printing deceitful reports that were piffle and found to be libellous in court was somehow "supportive" or not turning on them.
ernie_lynch - MemberThat claim probably probably needs some evidence to back it up.
Me seeing it good enough? (Though just to pick up on MSP's post, it wasn't specifically kids- just the normal missing persons board which is usually mostly young adults, the elderly etc.)
I am not entirely sure what that reply means - could you clarify?
Well the mass majority of press articles are clearly supportive of the McCanns, and rightly so, I don't think you can classify the few hatched jobs as the press as a whole turning on the, this clearly hasn't happened.
That claim probably probably needs some evidence to back it up. And an explanation why there was apparently limited space.
ok, I took this claim at face value, but with the media hysteria around this single case, I could very well imagine that it is true.
Well the mass majority of press articles are clearly supportive of the McCanns
You know that how ?
the media hysteria around this single case
Unless I'm mistaken you've taken a very keen interest in this case. Possibly even read the majority of press articles covering this story. So you would appear to be part of the "hysteria" ..... the media doesn't appear to have a monopoly when it comes to McCann hystria.
I for one know very little about the Madeline McCann case, basically because I tend to avoid reading about it as there's nothing that I can do to help find her, and it's a tragic story which, like other tragic child related stories, I don't relish reading about in great detail.
I don't think you can classify the few hatched jobs as the press as a whole turning on the, this clearly hasn't happened.
There was over 100 articles cited in the libel case so it was more than a few it was relentless.
I think if they accused me of killing my kid and selling them as i was skint whilst publishing my personal diaries I would probably consider them to have turned on me during the "hysteria" even if you would not.
It's perhaps because of the Mcanns professional status it's inconceivable to a lot of parents that they would leave their children unattended some distance away and how the abduction could if been avoided with that said it seems the original police investigation was woefully inadequate by an incompetent police force.
DD - apologies I wasn't clear. She did take the toddler on holiday with her and left them at the hotel when she went to a bar.
She did not leave them at home in the UK.
The mcann's do not deserve any of the blame they are the victims of an horrendous crime .
I agree that they are victims of their girl going missing, but don't agree that they are not wholly blameless. Their actions to leave their girl un-supervised ( for however short a period of time ) are a contributing factor to the circumstances.
I also agree with the comments that the media frenzy was possibly something that interfered with the natural course of enquiry. Too much media pushing by the McCanns was I often thought to myself ... I couldn't see past the notion that their lack of supervision of their child was as aspect which should have drawn more criminal enquiry and that their relationship with the media acted to divert the focus away from them in that regard.