You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
As I said, I don’t know much about the case. Didn’t know the door was locked. I’ll go do some reading, but I’m assuming the lock was forced? If the kid did wander off then it’s the parents fault as they are (I’m presuming) her legal guardians. As a parent that would be some serious guilt on your shoulders.
If she was abducted then it’s a bit of bad parenting and a boatload of bad luck.
Mmmm, ages ago I watched a number of vids by Richard Hall and iirc the door wasn't actually locked.
Also it wasn't always M's parents who were doing the checking, other parents did as well.
It's funny isn't it how many people want them to be guilty because of their class and their sense of entitlement. I don't understand the first but I can see how the second riles people. A thread like this though shows just how easy it is for the desire to believe something to overcome all rational judgement, some of it is akin to lynch mob mentality.
I've no idea who did it, though I think t highly unlikely it was either of the parents. As for the money it really isn't something I think the public should any longer be contributing too, there are more pressing needs in policing. If the parents want to keep funding the search then fair enough, I understand why they will never give up.
They are very hard to empathise with though and I find myself almost disinterested in them and the case. Conversely my emotional response to another case, the search for Keith Bennett would have every inch of Saddleworth Moor being dug up. There was something unbearable in his mothers loss and her desire to find his body before she died. It's utterly irrational I know but that's the problem with something like this, it'd very hard to be rational about.
I originally thought the parents guilty of her death but now I do not for the simple reason if it was they would have shut up a long time ago and disappeared.
What I loathe is the politicians bowing to the mail campaign over this and wasting huge sums that could be used for something more effective
they would have shut up a long time ago and disappeared.
It would seem like a very very committed and confident bluff to keep pushing for more and more investigation for 11 years, long after it would normally have been a forgotten cold case.
But maybe that's just what they want you to think 🙄
What I loathe is the politicians bowing to the mail campaign over this and wasting huge sums that could be used for something more effective
Yep!
They are just as deserving of justice as anyone else, but not more deserving.
The Daily Fail just want a mother and daughter sexy photo in their side bar of shame. Fectards.
Beyond all the anomalies presented by that link I posted on the last page, is it not a bit weird that Clarence Mitchell
(ex BBC Royal correspondent, who was working as director of the Government’s Media Monitoring Unit, controlling the flow of information to newspapers and broadcasters before becoming the McCann's spokesman)
ended up being the mouthpiece for Cambridge Analytica?
Is it weird that an experienced media and spokesperson got a job as a spokesperson?
errr... no..?
Aye, thinking about it, it's not really any weirder than Jill Dando's fiance becoming the Queen's gynaecologist and helping deliver all of the recent Royal offspring.
Or Brian Rice, a social services director criticized in the trials of both Frank Beck (which involved allegations against Greville Janner) and Fred West being a director of the Cheltenham Freemasons lodge, linked to both GCHQ and the Paedophile Information Exchange.
The reason I bring up these apparently not so odd cases are that Clarence Mitchell was heavily involved in both the Jill Dando and Fred and Rosemary West stories...
Not forgetting the unlawful killing of Princess Diana
"Whatever you think of their parenting, it was not their fault. It was the fault of whoever abducted or killed the child. No one else."
You seem to be very keen on absolving the parents of any responsibility for what happened. They have to take some responsibility. If they hadn't left the children alone, either by taking them to the bar or restaurant or even just one of them staying home while the other went, this wouldn't have happened. Do you leave your bike outside, unlocked while you go round the supermarket safe in the knowledge that if (or more likely when) it gets nicked, you can console yourself with it not being your fault? Of course it would be partly your fault in the same way the parents were partly at fault. Your insurance company would be very quick to advise you of just how much at fault you were if you told them you hadn't locked it up.
I wasn't aware that the very victim in all of this had actually asked her parents not to leave her alone again having woken up the night before to find herself alone with her younger siblings. Heartless b*******.......
So the simple mob moral is: if you are ever more than 50 meters away from your children then its your own fault if they get murdered.
Good to know.
Now where do we stand on the issue of girls wearing short skirts? Or old grannies wandering the streets with money in their purses?
Please stop being deliberately obtuse. That's not what I'm saying and you know it.
@GrahamS - would you leave three very small children alone for most of the evening whilst you enjoyed a night out with your mates?
I’ve wavered over did-they-didn’t-they over the years, and, on balance, I don’t think they did but we’re all just guessing really based on 2 fifths of **** all access to the investigation.
So if they did, then they bear full responsibility obvs, and the last decade or so have involved perpetuating the deceit instead of at some stage saying, “ok, I think we got away with it, time to make a statement saying we hope one day we’ll find her but accept that that police have done all they can, blah blah.” I don’t know how they’d do that, but I imagine it would stem from some perpetual guilt or something. Who knows...
if they didn’t, then wtf, do you not think they punish themselves every single day for their moment of irresponsibility? No, course not, let’s also tell them they’re shit parents and deserved what happened. Christ almighty, you heartless bastards. A few years ago on holiday, while Mrs DD and dd had an early night, I strolled by the beach to a pizza bar for a late beer. I dunno, out of morbid curiosity, I googled, checked on maps, and I was around the same distance from our chalet as the McCanns and their friends were that night. There was no ****ing way I’d have left dd asleep in the chalet and gone for a meal there with Mrs DD - it just felt a bit too far.
But then I think back to our holidays on a (easily accessible to the general public) campsite this year. There were plenty of moments when dd was out of our sight, playing with other kids etc. We drew the line at leaving him on his own in the pool or asleep alone in the tent while we had a meal or drink. While we were there, a family arrived, the kids saw “SWIMMING POOL OMFG WE HAVE TO JUMP IN THE SWIMMING POOL” so while dad set the tent up, Mum took the kids swimming. Youngest son, decided he was a bit hot, unzipped his flotation vest and jumped into his spare tyre inflatable. Only it was the wrong inflatable - with a bigger hole than his one, so he went straight through, to the bottom where he stayed until a Dutch girl swimming underwater saw him and pulled him up - she was only a kid herself. He was revived at the side of the pool but he and his mum spent 2 nights in Bergerac hospital while they ensured his lungs were clear and he didn’t suffer from secondary drowning. It only takes a moment - and a combination of bad luck and a little bit of irresponsibility can be fatal. But Christ knows, if anyone of us was in the same position we’d punish ourselves for the rest of our lives. Do I think the McCanns were a bit irresponsible? Yeah - I think most reasonable people do tbh. Do I think it was their fault and they deserved it? No.
Do I particularly like the McCanns? No, I’ve always found them to be a bit on the cold side - but then, people in their situation are coached to be “neutral” in press conferences, media interviews and tv appeals - stick to the facts, don’t be over emotional, don’t be too cold either. It’s hard to find the balance that will satisfy every keyboard warrior or internet sleuth. I imagine they’ve had so much shit and suspicion over the years, that they’ve probably erected an emotional barrier to it now
Is it time that the case stopped being funded with so much money? Yeah, probably. But I don’t blame them for fighting with every bit of skill and contacts they have. I dunno, maybe working class parents give up too easily because they’re used to getting a raw deal all their lives?
@ElShalimo: would I personally? No probably not. That would have been a little outside my comfort zone at that young age.
I’ve done sort of similar though: we’ve had dinner in the dining room of a hotel while the kids were several stories away asleep in our room. The difference was technology - we had a live video link set up so we could keep an eye on them.
I’ve also been sat out in someone’s garden at a BBQ while the kids were asleep upstairs in the house, probably not far off the McCann Distance away.
And as I said I’ve seen plenty of other people doing it on holiday, both posh and working class.
My point is simply that even if you think that behaviour is negligent, it still doesn’t mean that it was their fault or that they are less worthy of justice.
See also drunk girls in short skirts or OAPs with bundles of cash.
DD gets it! Good man.
My point is simply that even if you think that behaviour is negligent, it still doesn’t mean that it was their fault or that they are less worthy of justice.
I think the point is they seem to be appearing as more worthy of justice
so, do we actually all agree on everything here?
they've had waaaay too much money - other cases are just as deserving
they made a bad judgment call
they were very unlucky
their lives are now utterly ruined
whether they are very nice people, or not, doesn't particularly matter
@kerley - This is the crux of the issue, the "worthiness". It's that they are deemed a hell of a lot more worthy than others which is the crap bit that we all have to stomach. Whether people like it or not, there is a huge element of inequity, class, connection and the frankly disturbing and morbid fascination of the Telegraph and Mail in this sorry tale.
The family are obviously independently wealthy, compared to the average UK person, and very well connected too. Why should our taxes continue to be wasted on this. How can you justify this to low paid workers who can only dream of a holiday in Portugal? It's utter bollocks.
I’ve wavered over did-they-didn’t-they over the years, and, on balance, I don’t think they did but we’re all just guessing really based on 2 fifths of **** all access to the investigation.
You make it sound like a 50/50. We're not all just guessing - we (the grown-ups at least) are all certain that the chances of two people with no history of criminality, psychological problems etc murdering their child (!!!??), disposing of the body, and then working night and day to keep the case in the public eye for the next TEN YEARS are vanishingly small.
Lay on the additional circumstances of seven friends also being there at the scene of the abduction who would have had to at the very very least being aware that something was wrong, and have steadfastly said there wasn't, and it turns into conspiracy theory ****.
Of course there is a chance they did it, but it's a 2 fifths of **** all chance.
We’re not all just guessing – we (the grown-ups at least) are all certain that the chances of two people with no history of criminality, psychological problems etc murdering their child (!!!??), disposing of the body, and then working night and day to keep the case in the public eye for the next TEN YEARS are vanishingly small.
Lay on the additional circumstances of seven friends also being there at the scene of the abduction who would have had to at the very very least being aware that something was wrong, and have steadfastly said there wasn’t
This. I read the Portuguese detective's book in which he tries to make the case that they did it. It's deeply unconvincing. (And relied on the ludicrous idea that they moved the body in a hire car *after* they were in the full glare of the media.)
There's a chance they did it, but it's vanishingly small. Occams razor says she simply walked out the apartment alone and something happened. Most likely fell in foundations on a nearby building site.
My personal opinion is that at the very least, to avoid being accused of negligence they aggressively and ruthlessly attacked anyone who dares to speak ill of them in the public domain.
I agree, and I am suspicious of the fact that they were doctors and may have overdone the sleeping pills so they could go out and have a laugh whilst their children slept.
Of course that doesn't make it any less tragic, but no, I wouldn't leave my kids in a hotel room in an unfamiliar country. On holiday, kids get to stay up, eat out with you etc., your social life suffers a bit for having kids but it's kind of worth it and they have a great time. Alternatively you get yourself a babysitter.
You make it sound like a 50/50.
That wasn’t my intention. Apologies if you misunderstood or I didn’t make that clear. “On balance” was the wrong term to use. I too think there’s only a tiny chance that they did it.
may have overdone the sleeping pills
There's no evidence for this whatsoever.
Even the baseless suggestions that they did suggest the 'drug' was over the counter stuff: benadryl (which doesn't make kids sleep) or Calpol.
Yes, it's very unlikely that they murdered her.
It's also very unlikely she died in some sort of accident in the apartment and the parents conspired to hide the body.
It's also very unlikely she left the apartment herself and had an accident somewhere her body would never be found.
It's also very unlikely an individual or group staked out the apartment for days before pulling off a flawlessly executed kidnapping.
It's also very unlikely a kidnapper just got lucky, happened upon an available child, and managed to snatch her without leaving any clues and evading the massive investigation afterwards.
The probability for any of these explanations being true seems very low but presumably one of them is correct. I honestly wouldn't say any of the above is more likely than the other.
I would say the chances one or both of the parents knowing what happened is 50:50.
Laying unfounded accusations of drugging the children at the parents isn’t fair.
Doctors or not, the accusations are just that and shouldn’t really be brought up as some form of evidence.
Suggest we keep to speculating on the overall fact of did/didn’t they rather than technical aspects and uninformed evensence base.
FTW I too am similar to DD. Once a believer in they did have something to do with the disappearance, however as the years have gone on I formed the opinion that keeping up a farce is impossible and someone in the group around them would have blabbed to the gutter press by now to fund a house move or buy a flash car.
That hasn’t happened, and without pointing fingers I think the child wandered off coming to some poor ending somewhere.. what? I don’t know.
I still believe the vast sum of money spent on this case should (not could) have been spent more wisely and for more effective outcomes.
Is it weird that an experienced media and spokesperson got a job as a spokesperson?
No. What is wired though is that the fund set up to find theoir daughter is presumably paying for this spokesperson, who given their experience, probably doesnt come cheap
and I am suspicious of the fact that they were doctors and may have overdone the sleeping pills so they could go out and have a laugh whilst their children slept.
Yes of course, it’s bloody obvious really isn’t it. Think about it, what would two doctors know about medication and dosages etc. It’s obvious they would totally screw that up isn’t it.
Normal people would know to use Calpol to help kids sleep, but how do you expect a couple of Doctors know that!
And.... what with there being no evidence at all that this was happening either, just makes it even more suspicious doesn’t it 🙄
I would say the chances one or both of the parents knowing what happened is 50:50.
You need to be in beagle thread.
Yes Yes
No Yes
Yes No
No No