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Do other countries give out titles like these national medals which “worthy” people can append to their name to help everyone else realise their worthiness?
Is it just because I am becoming old and cynical, or are they given out to an ever growing number of people who need no further recognition of their contribution to the state? Would they always have been given to people who would be perceived by many as divisive?
are they given out to an ever growing number of people who need no further recognition of their contribution to the state?
I know a couple, (O's I think) one for service to scouting and other volunteering and one who worked a whole career in the civil service. Neither decisive or famous, but that's not newsworthy outside a local paper.
So I think you're probably wrong, not that I particularly agree with the honours system, in particular the politically awarded list.
As is so often the case, there's more than one right answer to that question.
Many people receive the likes of an MBE as recognition of a lifetime of voluntary service to a community, a sport or working against disadvantage.
However, there are others who are simply awarded for being lucky or having friends in low places. Welcome to the egalitarian, inclusive, modern UK.
Throwback to our system of honouring those who bashed other nations over the head and plundered resources for the good of the crown/empire, we never had a civil war in this country so we are left with a political system that is based on feudal lines and wholly ineffective in governing a modern nation, our political leaders still enjoy dressing up in robes and stockings whilst stating how great we are as country for having 1000 year old traditions
I like the system but feel the political ones devalue it.
somafunk - are you saying the countries which had a civil war are better? Did we not have one anyway? I learnt little in history, but do recall mention of something around 1642.
There is another aspect of diverting attention. The classic example is all the VCs handed out at Roukes Drift. Look at this wonderful military success, oh and don't worry about yesterday's disaster at Isandlwana (Zulu is on this afternoon btw, great film). Still goes on. Every recent political cock up has its share of awards being handed out.
we never had a civil war in this country
Oliver Cromwell doesn't like this.
The classic example is all the VCs handed out at Roukes Drift.
Always the same.
An operation/campaign that goes well, gets less medals awarded.
Only 1 VC awarded on D-Day.
I (vaguely) know
Oliver Cromwell doesn’t like this.
Slightly circular thinking too about all the wars of independence the UK fought - were they all civil wars up to the point where liberators won and were suddenly treated as foreigners?
In any case - Korea had civil wars and DPRK hands out medals all over the place. Lots of other countries hand out medals. It's not a British thing.
I know a couple, (O’s I think) one for service to scouting and other volunteering and one who worked a whole career in the civil service. Neither decisive or famous, but that’s not newsworthy outside a local paper.
So I think you’re probably wrong, not that I particularly agree with the honours system, in particular the politically awarded list. <br /><br />
So I can see the attraction in recognising people who have genuinely done something exceptional. I’m not sure a whole career in the civil service should meet that bar. They will have been paid for doing the work, pensioned in retirement and except in some very special crisis situations probably got the gong for not screwing up and being nice to people along the way; I’m not actually sure we should encourage civil servants to politely tow the line. Presumably people who know Mr Smith OBE know that he was an upstanding civil servant anyway so why does he need singled out over Mrs Jones who was just as good but happened to end up on a few less prestigious projects?
the volunteering ones I have a bit more time for, but I worked with a few big charities in the past where they seemed to get a quota each year which were almost inevitably based on the length of involvement with senior committees etc rather than actual contribution on the front line etc. I am sure some organisations are better at this - but much like the civil servants you could identify who the worthies were without the medal. Sometimes I’d see an anomaly and wonder if they had pissed someone off or turned it down.
If other countries manage without them - do their civil servants and volunteers look wistfully at the U.K. wishing there was some official badging ceremony in their jurisdiction?
My friend was awarded the Legion d’honour for her work on COVID. Similar work to myself and she has the same background too. I rather like the single level honour that says thank you for your contribution. Whatever it was.
TiRed am I imagining this, or did you get an MBE?
One of our guests tonight is getting dropped off by his dad...who got a CBE this time around.
My dad got an RVO for services to the Royal
Photographic Collection in 2020; he’s dedicated his life to the history of photography more generally and still likes to “work” now at 83 (though it’s just answering his phone to the odd question now, so not particularly stressful).
I for one am very proud of him as he’s worked very hard in his field his entire life, never been particularly well paid in his jobs and has done it largely because he loves it.
I can entirely see how peerages solely because of family connections or because you went to Eton though can wind people up. It does me.
My friend was awarded the Legion d’honour for her work on COVID. Similar work to myself and she has the same background too. I rather like the single level honour that says thank you for your contribution. Whatever it was.
This I agree with
@Tom-B I was awarded one of the “COVID” OBE’s for the same services as my friend in France. Came as a complete surprise, as did hers.
There are very few political/celebrity gongs given out among the 1200 included in the New Years list, and most of the celebrity ones are as much for charity work as for being a singer or whatever. As ever, the press want you to focus on that minority rather than Gladys Smith MBE who runs the foodbank because government policy has failed.
Some of the ones given to sporting stars are more grey, but who can deny the impact the Lionesses, for example, have had on encouraging participation and inspiring young women.
The civil service ones, yeah, maybe for doing your job, but if it was so well paid and fantastic you'd all be applying to be a job coach in some inner city deprived area.
The whole "empire" reference should have been done away with 60 years ago, I like the idea of one "order of merit" award instead.
I’ve worked with a few AOMs mainly in medical and community service fields. In Australia we also have local awards.
The civil service ones, yeah, maybe for doing your job, but if it was so well paid and fantastic you’d all be applying to be a job coach in some inner city deprived area.
they aren’t usually for Deirdre who’s been working in the job centre for 40 years and dealing with getting the least able in society back on their feet though - a quick glance down the list and they are for people in senior civil service roles who will be earning quite nicely and retiring on a very comfortable package.
Only 1 VC awarded on D-Day.
I'd respectfully ask that you stick to debating civilian honours and leave military gallantry awards out of the conversation.
They are two very different things, and in regards to the criteria, the VC criteria has become more stringent since it's inception, the early recipients often lifted the colours and ended up with a gong, more recent recipients have done much, much more and at great cost.
I’d respectfully ask that you stick to debating civilian honours and leave military gallantry awards out of the conversation.
Context?
I was simply replying to a comment about Rorkes Drift.
Are you now going to deny that the Military generally gives out medals when things have gone badly?
Probably the context that he has more knowledge in that field than we do and someone is inevitably going to say something daft. As I suspect you have with the comment about only honouring folk when things have gone wrong.
we never had a civil war in this country
Oliver Cromwell doesn’t like this.
Charles Edward Stewart has entered the chat.
(don't worry, he won't hang about long)
I think the whole thing is a bit of a farce and just points to how corrupt the country really is. There are a few local people who get them for a lifetime of voluntary work. But most are for doing your job or for political favour
I’d respectfully ask that you stick to debating civilian honours and leave military gallantry awards out of the conversation
oooooOOOOOOooooooOOOOOOooooohhhhhhhh
👜 👛 👜
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roberts-Smith
And? What vague and pointless point are you trying to score? I know it's hard when you've done nothing more risky than trimming your toenails, but no need to act like a tool. You don't make a useful one of those either.
The act for which he was awarded merited the gong. He could be stripped of it, but that hasn't happened for quite some time.
His citation is impressive, shame he and others decided to go off the reservation and start committing war crimes.
they aren’t usually for Deirdre who’s been working in the job centre for 40 years and dealing with getting the least able in society back on their feet though
Plenty of "Deirdres" get them. I've worked with a couple.
There are a few local people who get them for a lifetime of voluntary work. But most are for doing your job or for political favour
Can you provide the numbers to back that up please?
And?
Despite your pearl-clutching, the military awards system is not beyond criticism. And the Roberts-Smith problem is not that a rogue officer went "off the reservation" and murderered people - but rather that it was an event that was part of a pattern of misconduct that eluded oversight because he and his unit were treated as being beyond criticism or scrutiny.
I know it’s hard when you’ve done nothing more risky than trimming your toenails,
I used to work with a guy who was always banging on about how he used to be in the military, how dangerous it was, and how tough he was; he was never in the military.
Despite your pearl-clutching, the military awards system is not beyond criticism.
Never said it was, but your point doesn't have any relevance, turns out a bloke who did something brave was also a bit of a nutcase. The gallantry awards are awarded correctly, after the fact we often find out that the individuals aren't beyond reproach.
I used to work with a guy who was always banging on about how he used to be in the military, how dangerous it was, and how tough he was; he was never in the military.
Nice fishing expedition, no bite this time. I guess we'll never know if I served or I'm an olympic level walt. But we do know that you're a bit of an arse who likes a bit of a troll.
Plenty of “Deirdres” get them. I’ve worked with a couple.
I’ve not looked in detail at the entire list, but I had a pretty good skim. They don’t “explain why” but they tell you what the person has recently been doing. There are certainly some DWP people there… I didn’t spot any who sounded like they were on the coal face - one might have been on the front line - as a “Service Lead”. Perhaps we should be able to click the names and see the nomination - knowing who proposed them and why would add much more credibility. It would also mean people considering nominating others would know the sort of stuff that is accepted, but also mean people might be a little less willing to nominate simply because it’s the “done thing”.
There are a few local people who get them for a lifetime of voluntary work. But most are for doing your job or for political favour
Can you provide the numbers to back that up please?
the list is available to view online - the numbers are hard to analyse quickly but there certainly seem to be far fewer people who were being recognised for volunteering than for a lifetime of paid public service. Add in the MPs/MSPs getting it for political service and then the over 100 people with Chief Executive in their description a further 100+ Chairs and over 100 professors and it’s not sounding to me like this is for the ordinary folk (some of the chairs and CEOs are of charity’s etc - which is more understandable but most of them are not on the coal face) but when the CEO/Chairman of Aviva, EasyJet, bae systems, and talk talk are getting gongs - for what sounds like “making money” it seems that something is off.